Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Shane on October 22, 2008, 09:46:16 AM
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I know over time the player base has expanded and some tweaks to netcoding to accomodate, but based on my years of experience, i've never known HTC to be laggy in this way.. warps, etc, sure, but not simple latency, and never to the extent the discrepency between what the two of us are apparently seeing in this film. this is becoming more common.
watch the film around 1:20-1:24... he took a similar shot earlier in the film. this was my second sortie vs this guy.
my netstat is usually around 15-30ms, and a tracert backs it up.
i don't mind lame comments from the peanut gallery, but at least look at the film, especially from external angles.
an aside: this supports my theory that laggers generally have an advantage, especially in collisions.
http://www.speedyshare.com/562758755.html
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Is this film from last night? If it's TT, all bets are off! :P
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nope... about an hr ago. less than 100 on.
i'm aware of TT being weird, to say the least, and am tolerable of that, but again, TT isn't simple latency... this is.
did u watch the film?
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ya it was a whole 1/2 second from the time he started shooting, to the time the rounds hit.
:noid
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Skuzzy said something like, (And im not quoting,)
Its not their servers. Its our connections and PCs. =/
that i dont believe one bit.
His post is in here somewhere.
im too lazy to look for it
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Skuzzy said something like, (And im not quoting,)
Its not their servers. Its our connections and PCs. =/
that i dont believe one bit.
His post is in here somewhere.
im too lazy to look for it
That's a canned answer. They all say that everytime.
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My wingy and I noticed that late monday (11pm pst) alot of warps when getting in close and guys shooting at nothing .
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ya it was a whole 1/2 second from the time he started shooting, to the time the rounds hit.
:noid
not disputing he saw the shot on *his* end. i totally understand latency and packet loss issues, and the differences between them. I also run a very clean system (14 processes including AH) when playing and do know one's own PC can be an issue in this. I know not everyone is highspeed, nor has topline systems (mine isn't). Clues... I have them, kthxbai.
the relative positions to what i was seeing was a huge difference. if each film trail is 1 sec long, then he's shooting almost 1.5-2 secs behind me.
just remarking that this is one of the more notable changes I've seen over the years. i did some testing in maybe 2004, where i met up with an enemy and we paced each other. our noted differences in yds were within about 25yd (we had comparable connex of about 40ms at the time). did same test with someone who allowed his connex was usually 150-200ms. the differences in what we saw were still fairly reasonable, within 100 yds.
over time, this discrepancy has increased and situations like the one i posted occur. it's really hard to get people to give an answer to what their true latency is.
meh... i think there would be plenty of stories about certain people who seem to be either a consistent *warper* (packet loss) or *lagger* (makes shots comparable to what the film showed.)
obviously YMMV.
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shane I tried to watch it but you just die before any planes are around in about 45 sec. on the downloaded one I got it appears that the old flying alien ship we used to have got you and sucked you up. seriously the film stopped when I tried to watch before you even got to engage. (S) you killer you
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While it is indeed a rather extreme display of the results of high latency, I have to add to the discussion that this doesn't give the other player in the film any advantage in shooting or even in collisions (contrary what some players are inclined to believe).
If Shane had shot 18whisky, it would have looked pretty much the same on 18whisky's film, because that high latency works both ways - the latency would have worked "against" him in that case.
Being an European player (yet with a quite good, stable 150ms connection to the arenas), I always have to take the latency into account when defending against an enemy con on my six. It's not that extreme, but very noticeable in most of my films. Very often the enemy's bullets hit the space behind me and I take damage.
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It's the internet Shane.. I was out next to Madagascar till about a month ago, connecting thru a cable that goes all the way around the south end of Africa before going anywhere else in the world, had a latency of about 200-270, and never got any extraordinary complaints about being warpy or losing packets. It's just the internet being crap. HTC doesn't own the internet, they can only work on the network segment that's theirs.
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Skuzzy said something like, (And im not quoting,)
Its not their servers. Its our connections and PCs. =/
Mage.. used to say the same thing :rolleyes:
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While it is indeed a rather extreme display of the results of high latency, I have to add to the discussion that this doesn't give the other player in the film any advantage in shooting or even in collisions (contrary what some players are inclined to believe).
If Shane had shot 18whisky, it would have looked pretty much the same on 18whisky's film, because that high latency works both ways - the latency would have worked "against" him in that case.
Being an European player (yet with a quite good, stable 150ms connection to the arenas), I always have to take the latency into account when defending against an enemy con on my six. It's not that extreme, but very noticeable in most of my films. Very often the enemy's bullets hit the space behind me and I take damage.
ive shot 18whisky and 10 secs later he explodes.
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Lol this was the first guy i thought of after i read your post :rofl
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whisky was honest enough when i recently asked him about his connect... from what he said he's in kuwait and on wifi (and i'm assuming satellite), as he said on a good day his login screen shows 300ms and on a bad day 1800-2000ms!!
far be it from me to dictate a customers connection, but whoa.... hopefully there are only a handful of "regulars" like this.
and lushe... it does make a difference in collisions, since i get the death msg faster... other times i'll often take catastrophic ram dmg while the other guy flies off with minimal dmg, when we both get the collisionj msg. occasioally i'll come clear while seeing the msg for the other guy only.
it does make a difference when ur connect is standard.. yours isn't so much, to you everyone is potentially laggy.. to me it's a gamble trying to guess if this contact is gonna be one or not. that 1 sec is literally a virtual lifetime, especially when you fly in close quarters and against BnZers... i think i'm clear and normally am, then bam! wtf?!? yanno?
as i mentioned the discrepancies were much closer in the past, and i do see how the growth in playerbase, eyecandy, all that added data can affect things as well, forcing HTC to find the best compromise between various types of connections.
I'd love if the icon flashed for people with connections running above 500ms to at least give warning, but dunno if this is either possible or practical.
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and lushe... it does make a difference in collisions, since i get the death msg faster... other times i'll often take catastrophic ram dmg while the other guy flies off with minimal dmg, when we both get the collisionj msg. occasioally i'll come clear while seeing the msg for the other guy only.
It's a difference inasmuch 2 players with extremely short latency have a higher chance of both FE's registering a collision at the same time, resulting in both taking damage.
But it's neither an advantage nor a disadvantage having bigger latency, as the effect is the same for both the big latency as well as the small latency player if they collide:
First, because it's all about total latency (=yours & his combined), and second (and even more important) all collision/damage determination for your plane always happens on your FE.
If your enemy has a big latency, youre not more prone to take damage from a collision than with an enemy player with a small latency. Warping however is a completely different issue when it comes to collisions...
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That is pretty bad. IMO, they shouldn't let anyone play with a latency over 300ms. I know they're not a big fan of cutting any customer for any reason, but that whole "should be fun and fair for everyone" line sounds like BS when it fails to apply to everyone.
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Skuzzy said something like, (And im not quoting,)
Its not their servers. Its our connections and PCs. =/
that i dont believe one bit.
His post is in here somewhere.
im too lazy to look for it
If you chose to ignore how things work, that is your choice, but coming in here and calling me a liar will not result in a change on how things work.
That's a canned answer. They all say that everytime.
We do not do "canned answers". We have nothing to lose by being honest.
Everyday we do the best we can to get honest answers to people so they can have a chance to fix things and make game play better for themselves. It serves no purpose to lie to to anyone about connections and I am tired of being called a liar about it.
Quite the opposite. It is in our best interest to help make sure people all have the best connection possible. To that end, I spend a lot of time everyday checking various issues with the Internet. There is not a day that goes by there is not something wrong, somewhere on the Internet.
The really cool thing about it is, you do not have to take my word for it! You can grab any number of utilities and check it all yourself.
Just wait. As the election day gets closer, Internet issues will increase. Mark my words.
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ive shot 18whisky and 10 secs later he explodes.
I think this is more a question of this guys connection or machine. He generates a huge volume of traffic on range and occasionally 200 when he's flying. There are times when its very frustrating but I have a film of him somewhere "dogfighting" with air while I line the A-20 sawzall up on him. Now he was engaged with me for a good 30 seconds but all of a sudden halfway in he goes "stupid" on me and then as I pull back over I see him shooting at air...no chance he's reacting to me or to my past manuevers.
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I think this is more a question of this guys connection or machine. He generates a huge volume of traffic on range and occasionally 200 when he's flying. There are times when its very frustrating but I have a film of him somewhere "dogfighting" with air while I line the A-20 sawzall up on him. Now he was engaged with me for a good 30 seconds but all of a sudden halfway in he goes "stupid" on me and then as I pull back over I see him shooting at air...no chance he's reacting to me or to my past manuevers.
LMFAO
yup thats him
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i understand where you're coming from, skuzzy, cod knows visroute has been a heavily used program on my pc.
while this is obviously due to whiskey's connect... it's also a matter of the servers computing our respective positions (based on the data rec'd)...
can u answer this?
*has* the netcoding been tweaked over the years to accomodate the increasing amount of data transmitted?
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Shane...whining? Say its not so
I've been back in the game 3 weeks and I have only seen one warpy con...everything else has been very smooth.
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That may explain why every single time I end up in a co-collision I die, the other guy gets the kill and I get nothing. It works that way EVERY single time.
I do now have a high end computer and a good, fast internet connection
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i understand where you're coming from, skuzzy, cod knows visroute has been a heavily used program on my pc.
while this is obviously due to whiskey's connect... it's also a matter of the servers computing our respective positions (based on the data rec'd)...
can u answer this?
*has* the netcoding been tweaked over the years to accomodate the increasing amount of data transmitted?
Shane, the game does not transmit that much information per connection. That is something anyone can figure out if they want to. The current servers have a considerable amount of overhead to deal with any type of loads the game could impose on them. I would be surprised to see any of our servers actually break 10% load utilization.
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(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/BLACK94SSEi/Smilies/29.gif) Skuzzy (http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1091/yourock1xg3.gif)
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ninjas man......it's all caused by ninjas. One could be behind you right now and you wouldn't know it. Or they could be in your connection making the other guy warp all while laughing their ninja laughs.... :noid
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While it is indeed a rather extreme display of the results of high latency, I have to add to the discussion that this doesn't give the other player in the film any advantage in shooting
Yes it does. When I am watching at a guy behind me tying for an overshoot and I see that he has no guns solution, then I see his tracers missing way behind me, and then boom I am in the tower, the guy had a huge advantage. He can shoot me in his FE while in mine I think I am safe. A guy that was seconds from dieing ends up with a kill
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Shane, try wireshark
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Yes it does. When I am watching at a guy behind me tying for an overshoot and I see that he has no guns solution, then I see his tracers missing way behind me, and then boom I am in the tower, the guy had a huge advantage. He can shoot me in his FE while in mine I think I am safe. A guy that was seconds from dieing ends up with a kill
But you are aware that it's exactly the same the other way round, if you are shooting on at him he will suffer from the same problem.
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Shane, try wireshark
for hosting a film?
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lol folks in this day and age just think everything is instant. While not instant it is pretty amazing. Had secretary asking me why it took 20 minutes to receive an email..... lol
I told her next time print it out and stick a stamp on it.
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That may explain why every single time I end up in a co-collision I die, the other guy gets the kill and I get nothing. It works that way EVERY single time.
I do now have a high end computer and a good, fast internet connection
Same thing here, high end computer with FIOS, in a collision I die EVERYTIME.
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Same thing here, high end computer with FIOS, in a collision I die EVERYTIME.
As it is supposed to be.
You hit them, you will take damage.
Everytime
You don't hit them, you won't take damage.
Everytime.
My advice would be... "don't hit them"
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Shane...whining? Say its not so
He always complained about laggers, nothing new really :)
But you are aware that it's exactly the same the other way round, if you are shooting on at him he will suffer from the same problem.
There is one little thing you missing Lusche. Lagger know he laggy. Also, it benefits pickers.
No advantage in collision though, unless there are different lag for incoming and outcoming traffic.
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Human memory is a slippery thing.
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Id say that HTC servers and their stuff is pretty darned good. I live half way across the world and i only get a handful of discos a year and in 8 years i have only once gotten a comment on me beeing laggy and at the time my ISP was doing some major work. I do sometimes see others warp but its rare and mostly its the same suspects that are on really bad connections. If the rest of the internet used HTC as a benchmark the internet would be pretty much perfect.
If yer gonna whine then whine about something important like the lack of the HE-111 ;)
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last night in LWB and then in LWO the warping/lag was just ridiculous. for about an hour it was practically unplayable - almost every con lagging to some extent (eg. BnZ pony misses by 50yds, 3 sec later a hail of 50cal pings) and huge warp every time I saddled up on 1/2 of them. :furious
extended check with pingplotter showed a rock solid 132-136 ping with no loss or latency spikes (thats about as good as it gets from the UK), 50+fps in a furball, 18 processes running, so plainly not a problem on my FE.
how can it be that so many players are suffering from lag issues? my packets get routed through AT&Ts backbone across the US so not a problem there (against expectations), must be more local if its not a server problem. but I find it hard to believe that the majority of Rooks in LWB last night all use the same ISP, or all come from the same geographical location.
When people talk about HT's server, they are talking about the hardware (which I'm sure is up to the task) and the network. I'd like a bit more than the "its the internet, so out of our hands" explanation because to some extent this isnt true.
PS can someone explain why "theres bad storms in xxxx" is a good reason for latency? I mean its not like the packets are carried by carrier pigeon :confused:
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Just wait. As the election day gets closer, Internet issues will increase. Mark my words.
Why is that?
It is an even better reason I'm happy I will be playing fallout all next week and probably the week after.
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Why is that?
It is an even better reason I'm happy I will be playing fallout all next week and probably the week after.
More and more people will be "researching" about their vote on the internet. While the AT+T backbone may be awesome, it to will get clogged up with millions and millions of bits of info on all of the folks running for all of those "offices" across the country. The more heavily used the the internet is, the more lag and "funny stuff" your going to see, not to mention what eve HTC has planned for the CON this weekend !
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I too find it frustrating but I accept that it's the nature of the beast.
It only ever seems to happen in the knife fights when the action is close. Your turning, watching your opponent's every move and you see them opening fire into open space at d400+ and suddenly you're in the tower thinking wtf?
I just accept it now as a price I have to pay for getting low and slow these days. It's always a crapshoot with regards to latency.
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But you are aware that it's exactly the same the other way round, if you are shooting on at him he will suffer from the same problem.
Maybe, assuming no mini warps on his side. However, I am usually in the situation I described so I can get them to engage instead of the 10 minute race to the ack. So, in my case, advantage goes to the lag :rofl
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for hosting a film?
:lol Google it dweeb
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I'm no net guru, there are many here who know way more than I do. And then there is Skuzzy who trumps us all.
But I'll take a swing at this.
Its all about Use, think of the internet like the freeway system.
Normally peak traffic is prime time, between 5 - 10 in the evening.
Now double the traffic flow on the freeway. What does that do to your time spent traveling?
Put in a few traffic jam's, an accident or 2.
The more people on the road, the longer it takes to get there.
True for cars, true for packets.
With all the election hype, more people are on the net, downloading video, reading the news, you name it.
As for the weather, ever heard the radio or TV crackle in a lighting storm?
Shouldn't effect fiber optic line, but anything in copper can pick up interference.
Causes packets to have to be resent, etc.
The internet is in gridlock. It needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, and no one wants to spend the money.
There simply are not enough lanes for the traffic. Not in prime time, not when a lot of people want to get on the net. 10 years ago the # of people on the net was small, all was smooth and silky. Now there are 100 or 1000 people on line for each one there was back then. And most of them do streaming video, download big chunks off the net, etc. That has a very real effect.
(Snippage).....how can it be that so many players are suffering from lag issues? my packets get routed through AT&Ts backbone across the US so not a problem there (against expectations), must be more local if its not a server problem. but I find it hard to believe that the majority of Rooks in LWB last night all use the same ISP, or all come from the same geographical location. (End snippage)
When people talk about HT's server, they are talking about the hardware (which I'm sure is up to the task) and the network. I'd like a bit more than the "its the internet, so out of our hands" explanation because to some extent this isnt true.
PS can someone explain why "theres bad storms in xxxx" is a good reason for latency? I mean its not like the packets are carried by carrier pigeon :confused:
[/quote]
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Skuzzy, I do have a question for you that there may not be an answer to:
Why do friendly and enemy aircraft leave little "foo fighters" behind them on Titanic Tuesday? Just curious as to what the reasoning behind this would be. Sitting here watching it happen leaves me kind of dumb-founded, I can't think of a single reason that this would occur. It doesn't seem like lag since the aircraft is completely smooth and it doesn't seem like a graphics issue. What causes those little suckers? :salute
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Skuzzy, I do have a question for you that there may not be an answer to:
Why do friendly and enemy aircraft leave little "foo fighters" behind them on Titanic Tuesday? Just curious as to what the reasoning behind this would be. Sitting here watching it happen leaves me kind of dumb-founded, I can't think of a single reason that this would occur. It doesn't seem like lag since the aircraft is completely smooth and it doesn't seem like a graphics issue. What causes those little suckers? :salute
I don't know why they appear, but I know what they are: That's the clipboard, happens when the pilot looks at his map.
A little distracting, but not as bad as the completely unreliable dar on TT ;)
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As it is supposed to be.
You hit them, you will take damage.
Everytime
You don't hit them, you won't take damage.
Everytime.
My advice would be... "don't hit them"
I could accept that in a one-way collision but I'm talking about us both hitting each other. The collision messages are there for both of us. I would think once in a while I would be the one to get the kill but that's not the case. My opponent gets it EVERY time.
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I could accept that in a one-way collision but I'm talking about us both hitting each other. The collision messages are there for both of us. I would think once in a while I would be the one to get the kill but that's not the case. My opponent gets it EVERY time.
Yeppers Baldie, I get the messages in white and in orange and I always either die or suffer such damage as to die after the other person dies. The bottom line is either way I suffer damage. I never intentionally ram as I know I'm the one who will come out on the short end of the stick. It didn't used to be this way but for the last 6 months or longer, it has been.
All the Best...
Jay
awDoc1
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:lol Google it dweeb
I have minions, errr, assistants for that!
i have have a few vacancies... :noid
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little "foo fighters" behind them on Titanic Tuesday? What causes those little suckers? :salute
ninja gremlins.
:noid
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I don't know why they appear, but I know what they are: That's the clipboard, happens when the pilot looks at his map.
A little distracting, but not as bad as the completely unreliable dar on TT ;)
oooooo yeahhhhh i remember when sometimes the clipboard would fly by when you looked back... must be a similar bug... i'll have to pay more attn to verify/confirm it is indeed clipboard related.. but why only on TT?
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I could accept that in a one-way collision but I'm talking about us both hitting each other. The collision messages are there for both of us. I would think once in a while I would be the one to get the kill but that's not the case. My opponent gets it EVERY time.
exactly... this is why i say laggers (or the ones slower then myself) have the advantage and get the "kill." especially annoying when a picker comes tearing in and rams you and flies merrily away while i'm mid-air with superglue tryign to put my plane back together.
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oooooo yeahhhhh i remember when sometimes the clipboard would fly by when you looked back... must be a similar bug... i'll have to pay more attn to verify/confirm it is indeed clipboard related.. but why only on TT?
Seems like it only happens when more than a certain number of players is in arena (same as with the dar bugs). I only noticed it with >500 players in arena yet.
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Yeppers Baldie, I get the messages in white and in orange and I always either die or suffer such damage as to die after the other person dies. The bottom line is either way I suffer damage. I never intentionally ram as I know I'm the one who will come out on the short end of the stick. It didn't used to be this way but for the last 6 months or longer, it has been.
All the Best...
Jay
awDoc1
But just to be clear. We both get collision messages. I die. My opponent gets credited with a kill. I never get credited with a kill... EVER.
Why am I the only one ever to die during these co-collisions? I would think that over time they'd balance at 50/50 but they don't. It's been like this since i built my new computer. Prior to that it was about 50/50.
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If you chose to ignore how things work, that is your choice, but coming in here and calling me a liar will not result in a change on how things work.
We do not do "canned answers". We have nothing to lose by being honest.
Everyday we do the best we can to get honest answers to people so they can have a chance to fix things and make game play better for themselves. It serves no purpose to lie to to anyone about connections and I am tired of being called a liar about it.
Quite the opposite. It is in our best interest to help make sure people all have the best connection possible. To that end, I spend a lot of time everyday checking various issues with the Internet. There is not a day that goes by there is not something wrong, somewhere on the Internet.
The really cool thing about it is, you do not have to take my word for it! You can grab any number of utilities and check it all yourself.
Just wait. As the election day gets closer, Internet issues will increase. Mark my words.
Mebeb I'll vote for Dems--they promise to give EVERYone high-speed, my conn is steady if I'm not surfing, but being dialup, it's always around 200. I wonder if 20-30 ms ping would help for snap=shots, etc. At the very least, I wouldn't get booted on climbout while surfing :aok
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See Rule #7
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We all should have voted for Al Gore. He had all this internet s**t down to a science. :aok
OK I'll bite... Al Gore is the cause of all the collisions and latency and rubber bullets! Now that I would gladly agree with.
All the Best...
Jay
awDoc1
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I could accept that in a one-way collision but I'm talking about us both hitting each other. The collision messages are there for both of us. I would think once in a while I would be the one to get the kill but that's not the case. My opponent gets it EVERY time.
Yea same here.. I have a fairly fast connection speed and I could literally say maybe 1 out of 30 collisions do I get the kill message. I almost always see the orange and white text claiming it's my fault and 9 times out of 10 the other guy will fly off. I don't collied very often but when it happens I'm always on the losing end of it.
So I'd have to say there is a disadvantage on collisions if you have a fast connect.
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I remember the first time I played this game online....I was amazed at how many people I could see and did not see any lag...I was used to playing xbox live with a total of 16 peeps and a whole lot of lag..I was simply amazed :aok I no I maybe easily amused at times ,but lets just say I don't play xbox live anymore :D
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Yea same here.. I have a fairly fast connection speed and I could literally say maybe 1 out of 30 collisions do I get the kill message. I almost always see the orange and white text claiming it's my fault and 9 times out of 10 the other guy will fly off. I don't collied very often but when it happens I'm always on the losing end of it.
So I'd have to say there is a disadvantage on collisions if you have a fast connect.
If he clips a wingtip and you clip your cockpit... you die. You can't tell what part of his ac hit.
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This is funny i brought the warping topic up awhile back after a warpy P47 tries to pick me and warps right through the a $$ of my my niki as my plane falls to the sea in 100 pieces he flies away untouched but seems i got the reemjob from all the knowitalls about latency and lag Bah blah blah i see im not the only one suffering from this problem with warpers.
Beware the generic HTC explanation for everything. I have a email box full of em :confused:
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Beware the generic HTC explanation for everything. I have a email box full of em :confused:
Are you a networking professional? No? The generic responses are there because the generic people ask the same question over and over (the same people who demand US ISPs don't shape traffic ironically).
I am a networking professional and it may be a generic response from HTC but it is an accurate response.
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i've always been happy with how HTC handles their end (the internet is a different issue.) this is why it was so surprising to me as I had never seen such a large discrepancy before.
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i've always been happy with how HTC handles their end (the internet is a different issue.) this is why it was so surprising to me as I had never seen such a large discrepancy before.
well now I'm gonna throw in my 2cents (about 1.23333333cents after current taxes, after obama taxes it would be 0.23333333cents)
if we know and understand that there is lag;
is there a way for the aces high servers to measure the individual latency of each player as they enter an arena?
can the servers impose a preset base line latency that would be adjusted to be just a little slower than the average high latency of all players in a particular arena?
example: if one player is suffering from a latency of 200 and another player has a latency of 50, and the arena average was say 290 so the base line as set by the servers for that arena at that time would was 300, each player would be delayed inside the servers to bring them both down to a latency of 300.
that would then level the playing field for most of the players in any given arena at any given time. with the exception of those that fall well below the base line latency established by the servers everyone would be on the same time delay thus seeing everything at the relative same time.
obviously I'm not a networking guru or internet geek, so this is a question to those of you who are. is it possible ? could it be done relatively simply? would it be worth HTC's time and effort to try?
FLOTSOM