Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: 96Delta on October 22, 2008, 11:47:55 AM
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(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb209/StracCop/Mom01-AAR680x350.gif)
Thanks for the comments guys. :)
First, I want to say "thanks" to all those
pilots who participated, friend and foe alike.
I was quite nervous about whether people would
come out in sufficient numbers to justify
the effort that was put into this. But now
I want to know if it was a success. As I stated
before, I defined success as people having a
good time. So did you?
It is clear that the fighter pilots had a fun night,
especially the Knight pilots, but did the Rook
bomber pilots have fun too?
We had a good 1.5 hour debrief after the mission
ended and have learned many, many lessons on
this first effort that we will be implementing next
time around. (Paladin, most of what you posted
was addressed and more..ty for the post!). My
thanks to those pilots who participated in the
debrief. :salute
Approximately 150-200 Rook pilots participated
in the mission. At last count, there were 101
who joined the various posted missions. There
were at least that many sitting on the runway
in their preferred skin waiting for launch.
The strike was organized into 4 wings, 2 bomber
and 2 fighter. I've posted the operational
map so you can see what we envisioned. After
much discussion (1.5 hours worth!) before the
mission was posted 100HQQCH suggested this
plan and it was agreed upon.
STRIKE PACKAGE & PLAN
1st Bomb Wing: Boeing B-17G: C.O. 100HQQCH
11th Fighter Wing: N.A. P-51D: C.O. 20Charly
2nd Bomb Wing: Boeing B-17G: C.O. Tarstar
25th Fighter Wing: Republic P-47D-25: C.O. MajTalen
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb209/StracCop/MapMoM01.gif)
The entire mission lasted approximately 70 minutes.
Anyway, I flew with the 1st Bomb Wing, went
afk for a minute and, don't you know it, my joystick
decided to flake out. When I returned my B-17's
had broken up and were hurtling violently toward
earth. Despite the unfortunate demise of my Boeings,
I had a good time being a gunner on other B-17's!
Unfortunately, many enemy planes decided to meet us
all the way back at our side of the map. As a consequence,
our fighters had a ton of fuel and the bombers were
too low. We literally had to fight our way all the
way across the pond to reach enemy airspace....and
fight we did!
Never have I seen so many enemy planes enter a B-17
combat box and fail to exit. Tons of 262's were
getting clipped and blowing up! Bombers outside
the box were the unlucky recipients of alot of
enemy attention and got hammered for being out of
formation. Still, any enemy plane that dared enter
the box found they had doomed themselves.
Many came in, few got out! :devil
ESCORTS
As was mentioned here and in the debrief, there were problems
with the P-51 escorts not staying with the bombers. Some
things never seem to change.
The 11th Fighter Wing C.O. reported that many pilots failed to
listen to commands instructing them to stay with the
bombers. I don't know if a hard deck was established by
the escort commanders or if pilots just disregarded
their instructions and decided to fly renegade. Given
the 'noob arcade' factor I'm sure it was the latter.
I have not received any reports of similar problems with the
25th Fighter Wing (P-47 group) who claimed 17 262's destroyed or
damaged. I think this is mostly because that group was
composed of virtual squadrons that have flown together
for a while, understand fighter and escort tactics, and are
disciplined enough to not let their emotions rule their
actions. The P-47 tends to attract experienced virtual
pilots.
When I setup the pony escort (11th Fighter Wing) I figured
that most noobs would choose ponies so I had a surplus of them
built into the mission; about 25% more than the bomber group they
were escorting, in an attempt to offset the noob factor.
Despite this proactive effort, the noob effect won out and
many undisciplined 'arcade pilots' abandoned the bombers of the
1st Bomb Wing, leaving them to fend for themselves.
A big salute to the P-51 pilots that stayed with the B-17's.
Its because of you that we made it to target! Thank you! :salute
PRIMARY TARGET SUCCESSFULLY BOMBED
The loss rate for the B-17's proved prohibitive though. AHII targets
don't have names but it sure felt like we were heading to Schweinfurt!
Despite our horrific losses before entering enemy airspace
(estimated to be about 75%), enough B-17's made it to the target
(radar factory) to knock it down to 35%. I don't think that any
of the bombers made a safe landing however. We were intending on
striking multiple targets, but since we were engaged so far away
from enemy airspace and had to fight our way in, this wasn't possible.
DEDICATED GUNNERS
The presence of dedicated gunners in the bombers and the addition of
more gunners as planes were downed strengthened our defensive
posture as we progressed towards the enemy coast. A hearty salute to
those downed pilots who joined others as gunners! :salute
In the next mission I hope we can get more dedicated gunners as
they proved to be an immense help.
THE EARLY ENGAGEMENT & ALERTING THE ENEMY
I didn't bother to announce where we were or what we were hitting
because it was apparent that our very survival was in doubt.
I don't know if anyone else gave our position or targets away
but I don't think it would have made a hill of beans!
The whole Knight Air Force was already battling with us shortly
after we went feet wet. The many full red and green DAR bars
in multiple sectors attested to the location and ferocity of the battle.
Early on, everyone knew where we were and where we were heading. The
idea of announcing our target was to insure that a 'titanic air battle'
ensued so this didn't turn into a milk run. Well, we got that battle
early on and for the duration so no announcement was even remotely
necessary.
I think that most of the problems with our operational effectiveness
stem from the fact that we were engaged so early on while we were
in a tactically disadvantaged position.
If the Knights would have waited until we were at the midpoint
between our respective land masses then the fight would have
been more balanced and more fun for Rook forces.
I can't recall the luftwaffe attacking B-17s over the while cliffs
of Dover. If the fight isn't balanced, then the Rooks will
eschew further missions and that will bring the [MoM] campaign to a
quick end.
The fact that we were engaged so far away from our targets
and that the bombers suffered significant losses early on makes
me wonder how many Buff drivers will be willing to up a B-17 next time.
I certainly will because I enjoy the fight and challenge of getting my
ordnance to the target. I'm not too sure about those folks
who have the 'must win' approach to this game though.
I guess we will see. One thing is for sure, I have a great many
changes planned for the next operation.
COMMUNICATIONS
There were alot of problems with COMS. Some because people
were not on the assigned mission VOX. Many squads were still using
their own squad VOX or TeamSpeak so you never knew if they
heard instructions or not. Other problems concerned
VOX discipline and local transmissions 'walking' on channel vox.
I want to thank the guys from the 1st Bomb Wing who were very disciplined
in their use of local VOX. It was so quiet that I had to test
my VOX to see if it was still working. We have some ideas on
how to address these COMM issues as we go forward with subsequent
missions but this promises to be a vexing issue no matter what we
do.
AHII TECHNICAL ISSUES
Frame rate declines, stuttering, freeze-ups and icons not appearing
are just factors we will have to deal with as they are part of
the game and beyond our control.
CONCLUSION
This first time out was an experiment to see how well received the
idea was, how many participated, how many listened to direction,
what the technical issues would be, and learning the mechanics
of how to pull this all together. Many lessons were learned.
Personally, I enjoyed it, even though I never got to fly a plane.
I hope that everyone else had fun too, especially the bomber pilots.
I hope that bomber pilots who participated will post their
feelings and any suggestions they have. I have several pages
of ideas already but I am especially keen to hear more
from the B-17 pilots. After this experience, its no wonder
that the USAAF had moral problems with B-17 crews in '43.
Thats one part of history that I don't want to reproduce
with these missions.
Also, I have a request.
Can someone send me a copy of the "TAGMA" map so we
can plan a little better next time? 2048x2048 or
whatever resolution you have would be good.
With & without icons, etc. I just need one to help
me and other planners sketch out ideas when we plan the
next one.
Thanks again for participating!
David
"96Delta"
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dam dude!! wtg!! you did a ton of work so all the rest of the participants could have fun. :salute for that.
question for ya though? it was obvious to the bad guys where you were comming from by the bardar. perhaps you can talk with one of the htc staff, or someone famaliar with running snaphots, and see if this can be done with the bardar, and a little more "era" type of radar?
if i reacll from reading, most radars weren't that accurate to where the enemy had time to engage you at such an early stage in the mission. this would help you considerably with the bombing missions, and add a considerable challenge to the defending fighter pilots.
<<S>> and good luck on your next one dude
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LOL, yea i noticed the 51's didn't have a problem chasing planes to the deck. I figured they would chase down to 15-17k at most. i was wrong. <S>
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A fair number of Bishop pilots, myself included, intercepted fairly early. I actually missed an opportunity to intercept a pretty large group of B17s simply because they were 15-20k below their fighter escort and I didn't see them. If I had, they could have been pounced upon and their escorts wouldn't have really been able to do a whole lot about it. I actually didn't know that they were there until I reviewed the film from my sortie.
Great fun though, <S>!
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:salute You guys did a fantastic job.
As for the early intercept, it was easy to find you because of the huge dar bars in mainland rooklandia. I would suggest having your bombers take off well in advance of the escorts, and from further back, because when we found your formation the B-17s were at ~16k ft, which is way too low. Moreover, a forward fighter sweep to clear the airspace and push down enemy bandits should be strongly considered. The P-51 escorts we encountered were simply flying above the bomber box, which takes away the two advantages of speed and initiative. IIRC, the real 8th airforce did not rely on close escort alone to protect their bombers, with great success, and in the BoB the Luftwaffe suffered when the 109E was charged with close escort duty.
As for the P-51s not staying with the bombers, I can confirm that. I even have their names because I filmed the whole thing. :t We were in Ta-152s, and after a run on the bombers, P-51s would invariably chase a great distance and were picked off due to target fixation. Near the radar factory (same flight, 152 has long legs) I destroyed a B-17 that had already lost his drones. Nearly out of ammo (15 30mm shells left), I decided to rtb, but had a P-51 in hot pursuit on my tail. Even though many bombers were in the middle of their bombing run on the factory, he chased me all the way from 25k ft down to the deck, where I dragged him through the ack and he died shortly afterward. :D
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As one of the pony pilots, I see nothing but alot of action. There was action everywhere and i tried to stay with bomber formation. I did see alot of ponies chasing enemy to tim-buk-to. It was alot of fun Delta.......... :salute
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Its all a learning experience. :)
Despite all the problems we encountered,
we did make it to the target and delivered
ordnance...and all this despite being engaged
very far from our target and while we were
signifcantly disadvantaged!
For a first event, I think it was a huge
success. I just want to hear more from the
B-17 pilots so it can be even better next time out.
Keep the feedback coming! :aok
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Great AAR sir. As the 25th Wing CO ( P47 squadron ) i had debriefed my guys before we launched. Do not pursue Bandits, make a pass, make them descend, and regain your alt. We stuck to that as much as we could but i can possibly guess from the nits point of view the Jugs stuck near the bombers and didn't pursue bandits until the end of time.
I think what plagued the P51s pursue problem is that everyone automatically assumes the P51D is the best escort fighter up at 20k+. That is false. It is one hell of a escort fighter but the P47D outperforms the P51 at 25k+. Also the range is just about similar and the P47 can outdive anything at that alt.
I wasn't suprised when i noticed 35 P51s in the mission and only about 15-20 P47s but overall the P47s had a greater survivability percentage than the P51 on that raid. So I'd highly suggest more P47s next mission.
I loved it, can't wait for next months MoM. I'll be taking up commanding officer of the 25th FW anytime.
:salute
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Great AAR sir. As the 25th Wing CO ( P47 squadron ) i had debriefed my guys before we launched. Do not pursue Bandits, make a pass, make them descend, and regain your alt. We stuck to that as much as we could but i can possibly guess from the nits point of view the Jugs stuck near the bombers and didn't pursue bandits until the end of time.
this is i think what the real life escort pilots did too. they only needed to keep the fighters lower than the buffs
I think what plagued the P51s pursue problem is that everyone automatically assumes the P51D is the best escort fighter up at 20k+. That is false. It is one hell of a escort fighter but the P47D outperforms the P51 at 25k+. Also the range is just about similar and the P47 can outdive anything at that alt.
I wasn't suprised when i noticed 35 P51s in the mission and only about 15-20 P47s but overall the P47s had a greater survivability percentage than the P51 on that raid. So I'd highly suggest more P47s next mission.
I loved it, can't wait for next months MoM. I'll be taking up commanding officer of the 25th FW anytime.
:salute
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I'll say that I died by the hands of a 152 pilot at about 25k over and about 1/2 a mile to the right of the stream :lol
Great post. Its important to take a look at things like this afterwords to see how we did, assess, and go again. The Army AAR format would do well for you if you don't know about it or another format already.
Well done delta, and thanks for the effort. BTW, where can one find large maps for reference?
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Paladin, Can you send me the Template for the AAR format used during WWII?
As for the maps, I hope that whoever created TAGMA will send me them.
If I get them I will gladly make them available.
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<S> to everyone that participated. Was an awesome time.
We intercepted the formation around 209 and 112, not sure if your intentions were to fly east or not, however by the time we got there your fighter escorts were really high 30-35k, we had some 152's spotting for us and guiding us in towards your location, I had a good fight going with two 51's vs my F4U1C until they broke off, well disciplined move.
I did run into Auld in a 109k-4 which turned into a really a good fight, a 1v1, could not have asked for nothing better, I ended up egressing another 3 sectors to the east with 4 min fuel remaining before landing on our CV.
What a great time guys.
We are also considering sponsoring something similar to this soon. I hope to see you there.
:salute
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Also, I'd like to state some thoughtful words for the escort fighters next time we fly MoM:
- 25th fighter Wing Accounted for 17 destroyed and damaged enemy 262s.
- Our Kill to death Ratio was indeed higher than the 11th Fighter Wing's
- Our communication was somewhat choppy, but it was enough to keep everyone on there toes
- Our teamwork & disciplined really came out last night. P47 pilots understood the instructions i gave
them and executed them flawlessly, couldn't have asked anything better. - The P47D has 33% more firepower than the P51D, you do the math :)
- Your chances of surviving a mission of that caliber with Talen as CO has just increased 99.9%... ;)
Fly 25th Fighter Wing! :salute
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awesome mission guys :rock
now that we have multiple sea's u think we could do it there
just puttin out ideas for next time
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awesome mission guys :rock
now that we have multiple sea's u think we could do it there
just puttin out ideas for next time
That would make it much smaller in scale.
Many of the people who participated last night
did so because they were in the arena already,
saw the thing come to life and wanted to be a part of it.
That effect would be lost in another arena.
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Yes i can offically tell you that were going to sponcer somthing very simular to this. Cant let you Rooks have all the fun missions.
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Good. Gives me a chance to hop back into my 109 :)
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just tryin to come up with new ideas delta. anyways the fightin red devils of the 40fs will be there next time u do a MoM
had a blast never seen so many planes before
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A new plan has been hatching in
my fertile and troubled mind even
as we speak. :t
I plan to put alot more effort into the
next one with detailed instructions for
the escorts and bombers.
Things will only improve with time..
I'm just hoping that people will be
patient and help us to improve the experience
for the bomber pilots. I think that is
where more work is needed.
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I just have to come up with a good Joint Command name, or maybe i should just use your but put a Bishop at the front. So Bish Join Operation Command, Massive Online Mission? o.O idn just thinkin. :rofl
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Yep, once again, I'll say it was a big success. Its very difficult for a C/O to keep operationally aware and coordinate all those other airplanes. I try to help by staying totally off the comms unless theres a drastic need and just using the type comms. Also when I type a comm I try and word it that the C/O doesn't feel the need to respond in anyway. He has enough going on. We had a saying in USAF I'm sure Delta remembers. "Either Lead, Follow, or, Get out of the way."
Actually the comms for the 47s were really good. Had the elements been able to form up correctly I think we would have taken out some targets.
But the main thing is to try and support the C/O. I really didn't see anyone in Talens flight go off willy-nilly on his own to get kills and say "the heck with the bombers". I was with em almost to the end but got ganged with damage and had to dive out.
These are really fun events no matter what side your on. Big, Historically correct, bombers missions are the cats arse. When I saw all those 47s, 51s, 17s, mixing it up with the Luftwaffe it looked pretty awesome. :salute
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:salute Great Job Delta! http://home.alltel.net/wkunkle/b17intro.html One of our Sky KNights actually flew on the Aluminum Overcast several years ago. Check out the photos on the link!
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Excellent Mission MoM :rock Thanks 96Delta and everyone for putting it together. :salute
Sorry, I had to run out to work so wasn't around for the debrief. I had fun, and hopefully so did my wingman Nestle :salute
Feedback:
- B17s alt could be increased with rolling 50 percent fuel
- Rolling farther back in Rook territory prevents ducking in tower to prevent mission exposure on the runway
- Loose the Drop Tanks on the Ponies (didn't realize they were attached until I reviewed film :huh )
- Most of all keep doing this, it was a riot!
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I would say the mission was not really a "success", a quarter of the buffs bade it to our first target, it was really fun though.
Delta, it think next time we get a early ralley point and more assigned small squad leaders for our fighter groups.
And also, try to get some recomended bomber formations because the stragglers got torn apart.
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Zoozoo, why were you so low and separated from the rest of the bombers? I found your B-17 single and low. :confused:
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I had a great time fighting my way in and out of the 'box'.
Summary of my flight: we got big warnings on country channel early on. I upped 47n with DTs with some squades and we found a buff formation escorted by ponies way out over the water. The 51s were already engaged with a few friendlies and it was not an issue reaching the buffs, which weren't even that high when we met them (wish I brought less fuel!). I damaged 2-3 b17s before I lost a wing in 'the box'. Next I upped a 109 and easily climbed back up to the fight. At this point the ponies were actually flying even with the b17s, but seem more interested in fur balling than protecting, so again its easy to walk into the box. I again wound some 17's before I am chased down to the deck by a pony. By the time he got close enough to see he still had both of his drop tanks on I decided it was probably safe to make a move an sure enough it was an easy kill (pony seemed heavy). I rtb and up another 109 only to make it in time to help finish off the last b17s over the target. The best part was having some great 1v1 and 2v1 with the leftover bish that came to help defend. Can't remember names but <S> to whoever it was, great high energy high altitude fighting 190s and 109s.
Things that would have made it better from the rooks side: Buffs didn't have nearly enough alt. Most* ponies didn't do a good job of protecting buffs, seemed more interested in kills (can't comment on the jugs, I was fighting the other group). It would have been a good idea to do a big fighter sweep before the buffs roll in, the ponies would be perfect for this. Even better have some of the ponies take out dar at fields along the bombers route. Better yet roll a smallish 234 mission to take out enmy bar dar/hq, then up buffs deep over homeland, climb to 25k+ and then meet up with the escorts closer to front lines.
As for the knights, even though some of the buffs made it to target I think overall the knights kicked ass. The shear amount of people on during TT added to the huge warnings from dar, the low buffs didn't stand a chance.
*while it was obvious most of the pony drivers didn't understand how to properly protect a bomber group, there were a few I noticed on the 2nd and 3rd flight that were still close and above the buffs chasing away some attackers, however by then there were just too few left.
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<Salute> to the rooks who participated! SoonerMP and I upped to check out the action... We are Bishops and flew 4 sectors to intercept the mission. I encountered a Rook pony at 25K above 111 (I was in a 190A8) made a couple of passes, never fired a shot, and extended to escape the third HO and climb when a couple of knight 152s jumped me. My squaddie was in a 262 and sent one ot the 152s to the tower. I dove with the pony in tow with a 152 on HIS 6. We went from 27K to 100' in less than 2 minutes! So much for staying with the mission. I was running out of fuel by this point and RTB'd on the deck. The 152 engaged the pony and cleared my 6 (TY Knight 152 whoever you were).
I hate to talk up (not really) the Bish, but ThundrEgg runs mass buff missions regularly with great success...
Not completely obliterating your targets would rank your bomber's success as marginal at best, considering the sheer volume of ord you dropped. How many guys dropped on rubble while there were live targets available? Bottom line: 3 boxes of B-17s can completely flatten ANY strat target if the bombs are dropped accurately, there is good coordination between pilots and the optimum bomb load is selected.
Please don't construe my comments as "flaming" the rook buff missions in any way. The effort in planning and getting the turn out you got was laudable! IMO, If your escorts had performed as they should have, you would have had a greater degree of bombing success and lower losses among your Buff drivers.
:salute :salute :salute :salute :salute
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Maybe a little backwards approach, but here it goes anyhow. :uhoh
- Bomber command Officers' communication on chosen VOX channel, CO's of the Fighter Wings also on that VOX. Bombers pilots' communication on range channel.
- FW CO's listen to Bomber Command and relay orders over TEXT (separate channel) to FWs.
- The Fighter Wing pilots form wingman groups and each group picks a channel (they will not listen or talk on Bomber Command VOX).
- TEXT chat by others than CO's disallowed (other than range).
- In case CO goes down, he will join as gunner or a member of the FW.
- If CO gets discoed, his #1 wingman tunes to Command VOX and assumes duties until Chain of Command is restored (CO re logs).
If done properly, range chat is reduced, Chain of Command is clear, Wingmen work together as mini units within the furball, clearing 6's, identifying threats, and maintaining awareness of escort duties.
I can not emphasize WINGMEN enough and a clear Chain of Command. :salute Chain of Command was executed very well last night, and I had an excellent wingman (thank you Nestle and others). Just taking an opportunity to improve on our stregnths.
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Also, I'd like to state some thoughtful words for the escort fighters next time we fly MoM:
- 25th fighter Wing Accounted for 17 destroyed and damaged enemy 262s.
- Our Kill to death Ratio was indeed higher than the 11th Fighter Wing's
- Our communication was somewhat choppy, but it was enough to keep everyone on there toes
- Our teamwork & disciplined really came out last night. P47 pilots understood the instructions i gave
them and executed them flawlessly, couldn't have asked anything better. - The P47D has 33% more firepower than the P51D, you do the math :)
- Your chances of surviving a mission of that caliber with Talen as CO has just increased 99.9%... ;)
Fly 25th Fighter Wing! :salute
Don't fly with that idiot! Who are you kidding? :)
<S> Talen, I've never had any more fun flying with you than anyone else. You know how to make the game come alive.
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If your escorts had performed as they should have, you would have had a greater degree of bombing success and lower losses among your Buff drivers.
:salute :salute :salute :salute :salute
We were intercepted on climbout sir. The fight started about 4 sectors from target. We were already at 22k with 25-35k bandits overhead diving on us. Bombers were at 15k and still climbing. This was a Beta frame sir and we are already aware of the problems that occured and we plan to have a outstanding second MoM.
Don't take this as a rant sir, I'm just stating the obvious. And the P47s ( My fighter Wing ) did there job to the fullest of our abilities with lesser numbers than the 11th FW ( P51s ) And achieved a great K/D and survival ratio.
:salute
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Don't fly with that idiot! Who are you kidding? :)
<S> Talen, I've never had any more fun flying with you than anyone else. You know how to make the game come alive.
Hehe thanks spikes! I try sir, i try... :salute
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:rock most fun i've had on TT ever, even after flyin 4sectors somehow getting through the jug screen (which did a great job by the way :salute) then deciding to go noob and attack the first buff i saw from the rear (you can guess that outcome).
big :salute to all for who made it happen. this was what this game is all about :rock
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Zoozoo, why were you so low and separated from the rest of the bombers? If found your B-17 single and low. :confused:
I was at the head of the pack, made it almost all the way to the strat.
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I have three pages of action points that will be
implemented the next go around.
You had your easy time with the bombers.
Based on what I have learned I can just about
guarantee you that things will be VERY different
next time. :t
..if I can get enough people into bombers. :pray
I need a copy of the TAGMA map.
Can anyone come to my rescue?
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Delta well done. thanks for the time and the effort. Our Motley crew (TFC) changed to knights and upped with many many fine sticks at A89.
It was a Blast!
Again...well done Sir :salute
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Just got these from the film, in my film alone i totaled 9 262's shot down. And it was before rally point.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii275/zoozoo13/MOM1.jpg)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii275/zoozoo13/MOM2.jpg)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii275/zoozoo13/MOM3.jpg)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii275/zoozoo13/MOM4.jpg)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii275/zoozoo13/MOM5.jpg)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii275/zoozoo13/MOM6.jpg)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii275/zoozoo13/MOM7.jpg)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii275/zoozoo13/MOM8.jpg)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii275/zoozoo13/MOM9.jpg)
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what I pesonaly liked was that you hear these tails form wwii about huge air battle and how every where you looked there were air craft and enemeys attacking form all directions, that looking around you would see planes falling out of the sky, parts of planes faling off, explosions, aircraft on flames, it was very fun, very fun to be in, I think even better would be to break down into even one more wing, and spread out a little, bu overall I really liked it, one massive front
even a historicly accurate counter attack mission plan could be organized on the other side, very fun.
in the end i have to say this was a great sucses!
(http://www.seganerds.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/20080328nerdcast15.jpg)
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It always fascinates me how the lessons of WW2 air combat apply directly to this sim.
Close escort never works .. engaging fighters will get a firing pass.. firing pass = bad.
Gotta be far enough out to engage before they see the buffs, ideally.
Sweeps are highly effective .. especially if they catch the interceptors climbing out :)
They should be timed to suppress an area before the buffs get there and be effective until the buffs leave.. this means staged, successive, sweeps :)
Buffs have to get formed up and get to raid alt before proceeding to target.. none of this climbout into the Abbeville boys :)
(buffs ideally should take off from several bases, as should fighters.. then form up at raid alt, then proceed to target at best cruise..
..reduces time in enemy territory, reduces enemy response times, adds confusion to enemy ie:'which way are they all going' ..etc.)
Timing is everything.
Spits would cover first, then Jugs, then Stangs ..successive waves of escort-sweeps ..to clear the way for the buffs :)
When it works, it's like watching a Juggernaut ..a storm that blasts thru to a target, obliterates it, and blasts its way home.
You can follow the progress by the smoke plumes.
Awesome fun.
-GE aka Frank
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Oh .. something I learned from all the scenarios I was part of :
The guy you spend the longest time explaining things to will be the first one that gets totally lost and never seen again.
Keep it short, to the point, and press on :)
-GE
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Hey there Delta, had a great time sir, i was a P47 assigned to Talens wing. Got 1 kill on a 152, we did our best to stay with the buffs. I took some damage from a 109 and had to rtb. As i turned to do same, i saw another 152 low figured id jump him and pair up the earlier kill. Big mistake that 152 driver saw me commin from miles away and set me up perfectly. All i can say is that i was thoroughly Stampf-ed out :D
Big <S> to Stampf and all the guys in JG 11
Thanks for all the effort Delta :salute
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The guy you spend the longest time explaining things to will be the first one that gets totally lost and never seen again.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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zoozoo, can you send me those screencaps in their original form,
without the effects you added to them?
Man, you take the best screenies!
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I would like to <S> my boss, MajTalen and all of the 78th FG! I want also to salute the 25th FW for their participation in the fighter escort as Juggernaut pilots! Awesome time! Hope to see another MoM mission again soon...
:salute :salute :salute :salute
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I am so sad I missed it. I got off work too late. I came on when everyone talking about it.
Anyhow, I've been reading up WWII bombers escorts etc and from what I understand the escorts were divided into groups of four each with a flight lead and assigned wingmen. They then would criss cross x patterns above bombers always having a flight within a 1k of the bombers. At least thats what Cpt Robert Goebel wrote in his book.
They also would rendezvous with the bombers at a certain alt and waypoint.
I have an idea for the game to make it easier to assign wingman and flight leads etc... I'd pull up text buffer and assign in alphabetical order. All the names are there and can be constantly reviewed.
Anyway my two cents.
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Yep, can't wait for the next one. I gotta recruit a whole other batch of P47 pilots for this one. :devil
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zoozoo, can you send me those screencaps in their original form,
without the effects you added to them?
Man, you take the best screenies!
Sure delta, sent in high res attached files to your E-mail.
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(http://www.2ni2.com/emoticon/special/obrero.gif)
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Thank you zoozoo! :rock
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Can someone post pics of the battles? Im sure more then just zoozoo has some.
Nice pics zoo!
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missed the event completly :( wish i'd a been there!
can someone put up some film?
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The mission was a success because 200 people had a great time and that's what this game is about. Many good points have already been posted so I'll make just two. The point about the fighters needing to be ahead of the buffs is very important, IMHO.
Also for reasons I don't understand, I was able to make 4 passes at the buff formation while p47's flew just 2.0 above. It wasn't until setup of my 5th pass that 2 jugs finally came after me. I got a 6th kill of a b17 with them on my tempy's 6, then my flight was cut short as a jug took one of my elevators and knocked out my oil. A hasty landing on a nearby cv and that was it for me.
Fun stuff.
There were definitely spies and I think this is sadly unavoidable. Our squad was told where you were upping, what you were flying, and where you were going. Much of my squad was up and heading for you before you took off.
With the buffs low at 15k to 18k interceptors were in a good performance envelope so they could make several passes in quick succession. If the buffs took off from father back from the lines, interceptors would be unable to get to them before the buffs could get higher. Up in the thin air at 30k, the interceptors would be much less able to make effective attack runs.
Just my 2 cents. Thank you for a fun time. :salute
Steve
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I like JUGS. I had a great time flying with Whiskey18 and Djspeed. We got all the way to the first target. I put rounds in a 262 and a 110. Whiskey18 finished off the 110 and we lost contact so Djspeed and I decided to RTB...It was too late. Cons everywhere. A 190A8 got in my way so I HOed him and he put a hole in my oil as I put some rounds into his rig. I dove away only to be chased by a SPIT all the way to the deck. I turned and HOed the SPIT in an attempt to discourage him from pressing the attack. On the third pass he clipped my wing off :mad:. I can't wait until the next MoM. :salute Delta96
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grats guys, sounded like you had some good participation from alot of the arena. Sorry I missed it, sounds like fun.
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Anyhow, I've been reading up WWII bombers escorts etc and from what I understand the escorts were divided into groups of four each with a flight lead and assigned wingmen. They then would criss cross x patterns above bombers always having a flight within a 1k of the bombers. At least thats what Cpt Robert Goebel wrote in his book.
They also would rendezvous with the bombers at a certain alt and waypoint.
I have an idea for the game to make it easier to assign wingman and flight leads etc... I'd pull up text buffer and assign in alphabetical order. All the names are there and can be constantly reviewed.
Anyway my two cents.
Aye ..this was the common 'doctrine' before Doolittle stepped in.
Then .. things changed.
He got it right.
-GE aka Frank
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RE: everyone seeing the dar bar of missions starting--Ive seen Bop's do this quite effectively: They get 6 guys to take off (I think 6 makes a full dar bar...mebbe 7-8) ...orbit a base, and ALL of us think THAT is the base from where Falc's gang is gonna horde...everyone flies that way, then dar bar fades, whilst the REAL mission fires up on the far side of the map. Then, all the would-be interceptors have to decide whther to be dweebish or not and bail, find somethin else to do, or turn around and fly 6 sectors. All 3 scenarios buy time for buffs to grab
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Barely made it to 20k before the 190's started coming in on our p47 formations, and had to fight, run, and drop tanks early just to survive getting to 30,000...
After all that trouble, and because at that alt the 47 climbs so slowly, I only had 2 or 3 fleeting oppurtunitys to even think about engaging the Ta-152's.
Mabey if the 47's could get off the ground further away from the action we could have a nice defence going, because as it was the fight turn'd into a rout.
Darn Ta's... wonder if I could escort in one?..... :rock
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Sounds like I missed alot of fun, i'll look for you guys more closely next time. "S" to all of you on all sides, the MA's need more of this sort of thing.
Maybe HTC could take a closer look at giveing you something more substantial to Bomb.
sorry I missed it, i'll try and make the next one. :aok
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I wish I could have been here for it. I would have fought hard with the other die-hard nits out there. One of the other things I found interesting, is that this is the first documented case I've known about where the Ta-152 being used both effectively and being referred to as a useful ride!
One thing that would impress me in future raids would be more of a spread our raid type of thing. My favorite scenario follows;
Early on, small bands of fast rides and others (ponies, La-7s, jugs, ect) up near the front and fly tightly coordinated fighter sweeps over the target area, optimally spread out across 4 sectors. Once a good number of fighters have been towered, small flights of 234's fly in (preferably 3 formations to a strike package) and hit strategic targets, mostly dar and FH. While the 234's are mopping up the dar, another 234 strike wing (also small, but around 5 actual drivers with boots) porks NME HQ. While the HQ strike is en route, the main buff and escort drivers (all the guys who didn't have the perks to up a 234) start upping at widely separated areas. The buffs and escorts gather at a number of waypoints, resulting in a large number of medium size high alt boxes, kind of like this last MoM, but only around 15 buff drivers per bomber stream. The large dispersion of buffs and the huge number of max'd darbars will completely throw off the interceptor drivers, that is if the HQ survived and they have darbar at all anymore. That's when the buffs will shine.
Following the bomber strikes, any buff pilot with remaining ord will split up and head to the nearest NME site and drop it, and rtb. As they do this, most of the gunners and everyone who has gotten shot down up till now will up a goon and head to the attacked areas. Any escorts with fuel remaining will cover the goons to their points.
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<S> Delta wtg..wish I could have been there.
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<S> Delta wtg..wish I could have been there.
I'm sure we will have another crack at it Filth.
We had a very good turnout. If people keep
participating and we can continue to mount
a decent bomber force I will continue to craft
and organize missions.
Anyway, we made alot of mistakes this time out
and learned from each one.
And, we learned alot about our opposition
and will put that to good use as well.
I'm up to 3 pages of notes describing things
we will be doing differently next time out. :P
I knew the first one was going to be rough,
but even when you consider how bad things
seemed for the bombers, they DID make it to
the target..despite being attacked by both
BISHOP and KNIGHT players who had alt on
us and were not as heavily laden as our escorts
were! They had all the advantages and yet we
still managed to hit the target.
I'd say that ranks as some sort of success! :cool:
This also tells me that the next time, when we have tipped
the scales in our favor, things will be very different. :pray
I'm looking at November 18th for the next show.
Not sure what time though. I think I want to
move the time up by at least 30 mins to an
hour to accomodate international players but
I'm still thinking on that one.
Again, it will be a historically themed USAAF
bomber mission using the hearty B-17G.
My draft plan is based on a bomber force of 80 B-17's.
I hope I find them. ;)
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Hey there Delta, had a great time sir, i was a P47 assigned to Talens wing. Got 1 kill on a 152, we did our best to stay with the buffs. I took some damage from a 109 and had to rtb. As i turned to do same, i saw another 152 low figured id jump him and pair up the earlier kill. Big mistake that 152 driver saw me commin from miles away and set me up perfectly. All i can say is that i was thoroughly Stampf-ed out :D
Big <S> to Stampf and all the guys in JG 11
Thanks for all the effort Delta :salute
:lol :aok That Jug has a whole lot of horsepower coming down like that. Just bled the Big bellybutton Bird till you were manageable, is all. :salute
ZooZoo...Great Pics. Love that squad art on the one winged Ta152. ;) That's one of ours, I believe 'Ducks62' He was last seen making a pass on a three ship formation, having already claimed 3 confirmed. :aok
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,250347.0.html :rock
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That's one of ours, I believe 'Ducks62' He was last seen making a pass on a three ship formation
LOL, a lot of our opponents met similar fates.
Our B-17 Combat Boxes were like the Bermuda Triangle...
Planes flew in...but never came out. :D
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LOL, a lot of our opponents met similar fates.
Our B-17 Combat Boxes were like the Bermuda Triangle...
Planes flew in...but never came out. :D
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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I was just watching the video that JG11 produced.
(very nice job!)
Maybe the majority of the Ponies did a better job than
was first reported. I have to say, that based on what
I saw in the video they stayed with the bombers
very well, at least early in the fight.
I must take the blame for poorly deploying them.
Another lesson learned...and not to be repeated.
The JG11 video is here:
(the music and sound start late, give it a minute or two)
http://exposureroom.com/members/33vortex.aspx/assets/7067cabc9d704e6fb026d89d0fa81333/
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Oh yeh the TA is effective up hi, at 30,000 in a jug running slightly downhill I was catching a Ta-152 nicely (about d100 every 15-20 seconds).
The distance got down to d600 and I started a slight pull up to get the gunsite on him when he did at a slower speed than myself what was impossible for my jug to do with even full flaps.......,He pulled verticaly, climbed about a thousand feet in the rarify'd air, then rolled over the top level in the opposite direction..All without losing altitude. Leaving me in the dust as I flounderd into a deep stall, which I was only able to recover from as I passed through 25,000ft.
I watched the same guy go running downhill into a seperate flight of 47's while I holler'd over the vox for guys to break only to see him explode one of that flights aircraft..........
Pointless, thats how I would describe the feeling of chasing the well flown Ta's around in a Jug allready slow because I was trying to climb out to escort alttitude......especialy so if they started with even the slightest alt advantage, which regretably most of them did.
Laters Popycd :salute
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Were you in a N jug?
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<<S>> to you rookies i had alot of fun and i and a squaddie was lucky enough to catch you guys way early and quick right off take off in our 152's we roamed above yall and called it out for the squaddies i had alot of heart pounding threw this experience was absolutely fun to be a part of it even though i was jus a con lol, I made away with two bomber kills and a 51 bye bye, was so much fun <<S>> to the rooks and looking forward to another one!
:salute :salute :salute AKILLER :salute :salute :salute
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96Delta :salute
I flew with the 1st Bomb Wing and despite being shot down before I could drop, I had a great time. I will definitely join up again for the next. A couple suggestions (sorry if its a repeat)
1. Launch from a base that will help bombers reach safe alt. Also, if needed - explane how the formation
should line up & .speed commad for those who don't know
2. Fighter sweep in-front of bombers
3. Possibly find gunners prior to launch
and of course
4. Keep running these missions :rock
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:lol :aok That Jug has a whole lot of horsepower coming down like that. Just bled the Big bellybutton Bird till you were manageable, is all. :salute
ZooZoo...Great Pics. Love that squad art on the one winged Ta152. ;) That's one of ours, I believe 'Ducks62' He was last seen making a pass on a three ship formation, having already claimed 3 confirmed. :aok
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,250347.0.html :rock
Thanks stampf, yes it was him, anyone going for the main pack was basicly anialated :D
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I and two squaddies arrvied very late seeking to intercept your raid. I suppose it was all over by the time we showed up.
S! for the effort.
Next time, stage the buffs further back. Get up to alt and speed (265 to 280'ish). Faster and higher is better. VERY sorry to hear about spies. Yeah they exist. This Bishop, doesn't want spies telling me what another country is up to.
hap
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The mission was a success because 200 people had a great time and that's what this game is about...
:aok
This night was among the very best times I've had in the MA.
As many others have observed in this thread, the tactics that historically worked in RL also pertain in here... I'd say more, but I'm sure that Stampf would start clearing his throat and kicking me under the table. ;)
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Again, it will be a historically themed USAAF
bomber mission using the hearty B-17G.
My draft plan is based on a bomber force of 80 B-17's.
I hope I find them. ;)
Are you planning on having all 80 flights in one box? You'll never see the enemy attackers until they are 1-2k away if thats your plan.
Also, if you are truly interested in some great bomber tactics you should consult Kermit. He has consistantly run very effective bomber groups in many FSO's and notably the scenario's Der Gross Schlag and Rangoon to mention a few. I'd be happy to PM you some tips to consider.
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I would get a small strike team to take out various dars along the way, not just the dars on route as that would make it too obvoius, get some ponies with rox and then they can grab for alt again.
See if there's anyway you can do something about the dar from HT just for this mission? Or maybe try and sneak along at the maps edge? Have the buffs launch from different bases to keep dar small and then maybe rv somewhere along the route? Have the escorts doing the same thing perhaps?
Also try and get a "Gentlemens agreement" in place that we nits or bish only up LW crates for the run,I'm sure if you implemented some of this then you would have a rock solid mission going. Dissapointing to hear about the ponies, but that's what to expect when you stick a bunch of them on the mission.
I like Talons idea RE: more jugs, that would prob flesh out the noobs more and so you would know what you had to work with. Another idea I had is that I'm sure there are great buff drivers, pony drivers and Jug drivers from both nitland and bishland who would prob jump over to rook for the next one, Don't see why not as you can switch back after an hour or so, the LW drivers could do the same from rookland?
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The only way you'll get that kind of control is to move this from the LWA's into the special events arena.
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I would get a small strike team to take out various dars along the way, not just the dars on route as that would make it too obvoius, get some ponies with rox and then they can grab for alt again.
See if there's anyway you can do something about the dar from HT just for this mission? Or maybe try and sneak along at the maps edge? Have the buffs launch from different bases to keep dar small and then maybe rv somewhere along the route? Have the escorts doing the same thing perhaps?
Also try and get a "Gentlemens agreement" in place that we nits or bish only up LW crates for the run,I'm sure if you implemented some of this then you would have a rock solid mission going. Dissapointing to hear about the ponies, but that's what to expect when you stick a bunch of them on the mission.
I like Talons idea RE: more jugs, that would prob flesh out the noobs more and so you would know what you had to work with. Another idea I had is that I'm sure there are great buff drivers, pony drivers and Jug drivers from both nitland and bishland who would prob jump over to rook for the next one, Don't see why not as you can switch back after an hour or so, the LW drivers could do the same from rookland?
In retrospect, that's probably a very good idea (along with spoofing dar bar in various sectors to mask REAL bombers grabbing alt)
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I don't understand all this fuss about trying to mask the bombers location. Do you guys want 80 buffs all unopposed dropping ord on a strat somewhere for a milkrun?
Proper escorts and sweeps will do a world better than trying to hide the bombers. Also if your still terrified of spies just don't tell anyone the target, just tell them what field to be ready at with the loadout they will need. Form up, climb to 28k before getting close to the front line. Give your escorts a rally, get your sweeps moving out ahead and have fun.
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Pointless, thats how I would describe the feeling of chasing the well flown Ta's around in a Jug allready slow because I was trying to climb out to escort alttitude......especialy so if they started with even the slightest alt advantage, which regretably most of them did.
Laters Popycd :salute
I have plans to manage this popycd. Don't lose heart!
You will have another opportunity to even the score! :t
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I don't understand all this fuss about trying to mask the bombers location. Do you guys want 80 buffs all unopposed dropping ord on a strat somewhere for a milkrun?
Proper escorts and sweeps will do a world better than trying to hide the bombers. Also if your still terrified of spies just don't tell anyone the target, just tell them what field to be ready at with the loadout they will need. Form up, climb to 28k before getting close to the front line. Give your escorts a rally, get your sweeps moving out ahead and have fun.
Let me address your points in the order asked.
• We want a fair fight bong. The DAR bar and spies
will insure that it is never unopposed.
• The strategy you proposed is under active
consideration. It was difficult to apply such a strategy
early on because, being that this was the first [MoM],
I had no idea how many forces I would have to deploy.
That information wasn't available until 30 mins after the
mission was publically posted. The short time frame made
changing the plan illadvised. Crafting the original plan
took us an hour and a half!
• The spies we are talking about are those with duplicate accounts.
I have received reports that enemy planes upped and
headed for our launch bases as soon as I posted
the mission in the mission editor, planes from BOTH the
Bishops and Knights.
All the 'spies' had to do was look at the posted missions to
learn where we were upping from and our course to target.
So hopefully you will see that it doesn't matter what course
we fly, there will be no secrecy because of these vermin.
But we have a few 'interesting' ideas... :cool:
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Thanks stampf, yes it was him, anyone going for the main pack was basicly anialated :D
Watching all those uber 262's come into the pack and
go 'boom' or leave training smoke and missing parts
were some of the times that I laughed the loudest!
Many, many perkies vaporized in the combat box!
Like this guy! Uhhhhh, somethin's missin' from ma airsplane?
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb209/StracCop/Untitled-1-1.gif)
Sorry to all you guys who lost perkies. :D
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lol, nice pic. Anyone got anymore? o.O
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(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/AZC4guy/BUFFRUN1.jpg)
I slipped in between the buffs and the escorts. The buffs seemed unaware or disinterested in my tempest, I took little fire from the buffs.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/AZC4guy/BUFFKILL1.jpg)
Kappa's 262 makes for a good distraction
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/AZC4guy/BUFFKILL2A.jpg)
Still sneaking in. kill the pilot, easiest way to down a buff.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/AZC4guy/BUFFKILL3.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/AZC4guy/BUFFKILL4.jpg)
Lothmog to the rescue! Lothmog gets me in his sights briefly but I slip away for a harried landing on a smoking, turning cv.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/AZC4guy/LOTHMOG.jpg)
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A few more pics Delta...
The last one was the only picture I tweaked. Probably should have left it alone :)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff44/jappa52/AO6.jpg)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff44/jappa52/AO7.jpg)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff44/jappa52/AO8.jpg)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff44/jappa52/AO9.jpg)
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Had a blast cant wait for the next one :rock
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Great screenies!
Thanks for going to the trouble of making them,
uploading them and posting them. I know it takes some
effort to share!
Thank you! :rock :salute :aok
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Fighters werent disintrested in your temp, they where engaged before they ever made it to the bombers, lol
Such is life, hey the next one should be intresting as well, hope the same BS doesnt occur.
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Screen shots look awesome :)
Amazingly like color versions of the scenes from WW2 over Germany :)
Thanks for postin.
-GE