Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve on October 28, 2008, 02:29:24 AM
-
In another thread and in game lots of people have asked me about E retention and ropes. Some people have wondered in text/PM/vox how I retain so much E and more than one have accused me of cheating. I'm going to discuss the spiral rope in this thread but do not claim to be an experte. I'm just trying to help my fellow AH'ers out. Feel free to add your own ideas, comments.
A very simple and effective way to disguise E in the vert is the spiral rope. The goal of the spiral rope is to fool your opponent into over committing in the vert and thus giving you a gun solution on his very slow plane. As you watch in the film it seems like such a simple thing, but there are several complex factors going on.
First you must very quickly ascertain the E of the enemy. If you guess wrong and your spiral is too loose, you will pull too far from the enemy and he will see the trap. If you spiral too tight you will bleed E too much, giving a gun solution and the initiative to your intended victim.
When I say tight spiral, imagine a tightly coiled spring... looser... less coiled. Before you can effectively spiral rope, you MUST be very proficient at QUICKLY gauging E states.
Notice in the film the distance of my target never varies much until he is completely committed, and then I allow him to get closer! I can do this in the spiral because I have correctly gauged his E state and know that he cannot pull enough lead on me for a gun solution. To keep him interested, I tighten the spiral and allow the distance to close, while not giving up a shot to the bad guy. Watch the film from his POV and notice, even as he closes the distance, he cannot get his nose on me.
The next crucial step is to know when to nose down for the shot. Many people go up until their plane stalls, or the target's plane stalls. That's not how to do it!
The tricky part is to nose down BEFORE your opponent stalls, yet when he is too low on E to pull his nose up for a shot. The trick is to nose down so that you have a gun solution on a slow/helpless plane. The failing of many people trying to rope is that they wait too long to come down and once they do come down, they find themselves chasing a plane who has already nosed down and has enough E to attempt to evade.
Notice in the film that when I have a gun solution, my target is completely helpless to evade. You will see that as I come over the top I am quite slow. I put in 2 notches of flaps and chop the throttle.... Combat trim off! Reasons for this: The 2 notches of flaps will keep my plane flying and allow me to get me nose up enough for a solution. The chopped power in this film is for two reasons: One: I'm slow enough that, at full power, I'd be fighting the torque of the engine as I came over the top then tried to acquire my target. Two: My target is close enough that if I stay on the throttle, I might zoom down past him before I can get my nose on him. By chopping the throttle, I've given myself another moment or two to acquire the gun solution because I've slowed my rate of acceleration/closure. Notice that as I nose down and begin to pick up speed I bring the flaps back up. Reason: As you gain speed, deployed flaps are going to want to push the nose up and you don't want to be fighting this trend as you acquire a solution for your guns.
Once you master E state gauging, you will become really good at all of this. I hope there are those who find this helpful.
Steve
<S> to JB64
Film:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=6223b08b94613233d2db6fb9a8902bda (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=6223b08b94613233d2db6fb9a8902bda)
-
:aok this works wonders in the mossy, amazing how much E a twin engine can horde, and how desperate some folk are to get a shot on you. The spiral element is what saves you when a straight up rope is going to get you shot by that chick 16.Steve, Good post, informative.
-
Gotta be extra smooth if you use the mossie for this, too. It bleeds even easier than the 51D if you let it go sideways.
-
thanks for that Steve
-
I have to admit..that was some pretty impressive timing. What factors tell you its time to rollover and attack? I didn't see any of his wings dip from your perspective. (The usual tell tale of a stall)
-
hope steve wont mind me fielding that one chemdawg. Its a simple answer. Repeatition. :salute
-
JB64 should have never tryed to climb up to you like that to begin with. That's just asking to die. I think if he would have kicked rudder hard right, 1 notch of flaps and hit wep the out come would have been different. I don't know. What I'm saying is his lack of knowing what to do and when caused his death more then anything. my rule of thumb is NEVER climb to your target except as a last resort..he had other options.
The snapshot on the F4U was what really impressed me! Did you page up for that shot? :salute
-
I have to admit..that was some pretty impressive timing. What factors tell you its time to rollover and attack? I didn't see any of his wings dip from your perspective. (The usual tell tale of a stall)
Steve doesn't use stall limiter and from what I could tell combat trim is off too. With those things off you have alot more control in those type of situations. That rope is all about skill....plain and simple :salute
-
Another smart thing Steve did was to use the sun to his advantage. An excellently executed maneuver. :salute
-
Great point Steve..I've also been accused of cheating with this move. I'm just guessing that they can't judge my e status. I'd also like to say hi to all these great pilots on this post.
-
JB64 should have never tryed to climb up to you like that to begin with. That's just asking to die.
I agree, this was simply a target of oppurtunity, you had much more E and alt. you simply took advantage of it. It appears that JB did not intend on initially wanting to engage you, however he did nose up and misjudged your E advantage.
-
Disguising your E state is a huge part of my flying,except where you do it offensively, I do it defensively.
The P40E cant rope against very many planes so it comesdown to nursing away the opponents E by making him miss and collecting as much speed as possible through turns while avoiding his attacks.
Eventually it comes to a point where the guy breaks and runs or goes up one last time thinking he still has the advantage, when I commit and surprise him with the reserve of E I saved. Hes usually stalled and winging over, just as Im adding a notch of flap and fill his cockpit.
Interesting how we all have our tactics in relation to what we fly.
-
Dadsguns you are mistaken. 64 did intend to engage me. He acquired me as I went past him on the way down as I took a shot at the la7. This isn't a thread on what 64 did or did not do. People have asked me about the spiral rope and I am trying to give them some pointers from my experience. Instead of belittling my efforts, why don't you share some of your uber skills with us?
-
My apologies Steve. I just woke up when I posted. Didn't mean to get off track there. It's just that the first thing that comes to mind with a move like you did there is what could a person counteract that. I was just thinking out loud. :salute
-
My apologies Steve. I just woke up when I posted. Didn't mean to get off track there. It's just that the first thing that comes to mind with a move like you did there is what could a person counteract that. I was just thinking out loud. :salute
You weren't off track, really. I just didn't want it to become an indictment of 64. It's an easy trap to watch what someone did and then say how one should have done it. 64 even implied that he would have done things differently if he'd known it was me...his words. I'm not saying you wouldn't have done things differently. Again, I don't want 64 to be critiqued for his flying here.
My words were more directed at dadsguns who trivialized the manuever when I know full well he is incapable of replicating it with any regularity. You know, armchair quarterback stuff. There was another thread recently where he had a snide remark in a similar vein.
-
i get that all the time when i post reversals and overshoots. someone always says 'that enemy was clueless'. Funny that i seem to be having immense success with my flying style, there must be a huge ammount of people out there flying like utter crap just when they get near me... and i dont just mean zipcodes and 2 weekers...
Fact of it is, Steve made a good kill or two using a method someone wanted advice on. Stve posted said method for the person. The enemy Steve dispatched may have made mistakes, but almost everyone here makes the same mistake almsot every sortie.
Either that or I somehow manage to only find noobs and 2 weekers impersonating veteran's account names..
-
Everytime I see a Mossie, I think "Careful, might be Batfink".
Then someone dives in ahead of me at the speed of light and takes that Mossie which never even break turns.
Same thing with P-51s "Might be Steve/Skatsr/take your pick"
Every plane in the whole list about the same way. Never know when you might run into a Ju-87 ace...
But most other players probably aren't that anal about the whole affair.
i get that all the time when i post reversals and overshoots. someone always says 'that enemy was clueless'. Funny that i seem to be having immense success with my flying style, there must be a huge ammount of people out there flying like utter crap just when they get near me... and i dont just mean zipcodes and 2 weekers...
Fact of it is, Steve made a good kill or two using a method someone wanted advice on. Stve posted said method for the person. The enemy Steve dispatched may have made mistakes, but almost everyone here makes the same mistake almsot every sortie.
Either that or I somehow manage to only find noobs and 2 weekers impersonating veteran's account names..
-
heh BnZ i think i am.. whenever i see a nik im thinking WingZero, or a low spit16 im dreaming i might have finally found kazaa at a disadvantage. The list goes on and on.
-
but almost everyone here makes the same mistake almsot every sortie.
Either that or I somehow manage to only find noobs and 2 weekers impersonating veteran's account names..
Yessir! I see this almost every night. My target didn't do anything that most MA sticks wouldn't do. 64 is no dummy though. I fooled him once... we'll see if it happens again. :salute
-
64 has a good teacher and several good wingmen :rock
-
Dadsguns you are mistaken. 64 did intend to engage me. He acquired me as I went past him on the way down as I took a shot at the la7. This isn't a thread on what 64 did or did not do. People have asked me about the spiral rope and I am trying to give them some pointers from my experience. Instead of belittling my efforts, why don't you share some of your uber skills with us?
Again, your film clearly does not show your skill, it shows the lack of JB's. No disrespect intended to either one, but his speed was really low for any manuver for a con with alt. You took advantage of this plain and simple, you could have done a barrel roll, with an S turn or any fancy named move and could have killed him.
You weren't off track, really. I just didn't want it to become an indictment of 64. It's an easy trap to watch what someone did and then say how one should have done it. 64 even implied that he would have done things differently if he'd known it was me...his words. I'm not saying you wouldn't have done things differently. Again, I don't want 64 to be critiqued for his flying here.
My words were more directed at dadsguns who trivialized the maneuver when I know full well he is incapable of replicating it with any regularity. You know, armchair quarterback stuff. There was another thread recently where he had a snide remark in a similar vein.
Steve,
Sorry if you took my reply that way, which it wanst intended to criticize either pilot, but it appeared to me in the video that he was not initially trying to engage, you just used your alt and E to your advantage. I did not find anything spectacular about your move.
As for your "full knowledge of me replicating it with any regularity" or your lack thereof, you could not be more mistaken, as a matter of fact, I pulled a beautiful text book rope against another player just a day before you posted this, I failed to record this event as well as many others. That pilot gave up a fierce fight and in the end <S>.
Your basis on the maneuver is close, but should not be used as an example IMO.
-
Dad I think your acting a bit clueless on this one.
We can break this game down into two major components (as it relates 2 one on one fights). We have the staged duel where both sides start from an equal footing, almost (but not always) in the same plane. Most often we think of the "best" pilot based on this criteria.
We then have the "MA" environment where a 1 on 1 is a random event with a tremendous variation in starting positions and plane types and the constant threat of interruption. This is completely different fight and requires a lot of mental agility. I cant tell you the number of times I've sat in an A-20 watching a guy with E and alt on me and waving squaadies or other friendlies off since I know the guy will be dead in 15-20 seconds. Other times I run into a real pro and know I'm a slab of tuna on a 1st date with a sushi chef after 5 seconds or so.
What makes the MA great is this uncertainty, all to often we "abuse" a pilot because of his choice of ride or ignore his skill level. While I will occasionally lose a fight to the other plane more often then not credit belongs to the pilot. When you look at the guys who've commented here you see by and large a bunch of guys widely recognized for ability and as "great fight" guys. Steve cant control who the other guy is or what he's flying, all he can do is manage the fight based on circumstance and employ the best tactics he can. Further this tactic is universally the single biggest kill harvester in the game...and suprisingly difficult to master. We all fall to it from time to time and on the flip side we all cut it to close and get "golden BB'd as well.
This is a great example of a very important aspect of +E fighting. I can kill about 80% of the pony drivers in this game one on one in an A-20. It's a select few like Steve, Skat, Chalenge, AKDG etc that can consistantly "go sushi" on me and I have never once (I hope) not failed to offer up a big <S> and comment for a job well done. This is exactly where most guys are frustrated in the game. We all realize that in some fights we draw the short straw. It's when we go out time after time and lose fights where we have alt & E and are towered in a minute if we get aggressive and ridiculed if we just buzz bomb the other guy as a "runner". Learning and mastering the "when, why and how" of moves like this are the building blocks of good MA flying.
Great clip :aok
-
MA : DA
Chess : tic tac toe
-
MA : DA
Chess : tic tac toe
More like Chess and Roulette.
-
tic tac toe is pretty much roulette, yep.
-
Steve is an excellent flyer in the P51, It was a pleasure flying for bit with himself and Agent the other night, 2 great guys who had some outstanding teamwork going, In that short time I learned some very valuable lessons, hope to come accross you and Agent again Steve. :)
Big <S>
iTunes
-
Dad I think your acting a bit clueless on this one.
We can break this game down into two major components (as it relates 2 one on one fights). We have the staged duel where both sides start from an equal footing, almost (but not always) in the same plane. Most often we think of the "best" pilot based on this criteria.
We then have the "MA" environment where a 1 on 1 is a random event with a tremendous variation in starting positions and plane types and the constant threat of interruption. This is completely different fight and requires a lot of mental agility. I cant tell you the number of times I've sat in an A-20 watching a guy with E and alt on me and waving squaadies or other friendlies off since I know the guy will be dead in 15-20 seconds. Other times I run into a real pro and know I'm a slab of tuna on a 1st date with a sushi chef after 5 seconds or so.
What makes the MA great is this uncertainty, all to often we "abuse" a pilot because of his choice of ride or ignore his skill level. While I will occasionally lose a fight to the other plane more often then not credit belongs to the pilot. When you look at the guys who've commented here you see by and large a bunch of guys widely recognized for ability and as "great fight" guys. Steve cant control who the other guy is or what he's flying, all he can do is manage the fight based on circumstance and employ the best tactics he can. Further this tactic is universally the single biggest kill harvester in the game...and suprisingly difficult to master. We all fall to it from time to time and on the flip side we all cut it to close and get "golden BB'd as well.
This is a great example of a very important aspect of +E fighting. I can kill about 80% of the pony drivers in this game one on one in an A-20. It's a select few like Steve, Skat, Chalenge, AKDG etc that can consistantly "go sushi" on me and I have never once (I hope) not failed to offer up a big <S> and comment for a job well done. This is exactly where most guys are frustrated in the game. We all realize that in some fights we draw the short straw. It's when we go out time after time and lose fights where we have alt & E and are towered in a minute if we get aggressive and ridiculed if we just buzz bomb the other guy as a "runner". Learning and mastering the "when, why and how" of moves like this are the building blocks of good MA flying.
Great clip :aok
Not sure where you were going with all of this, but if it is to explain the MA from the DA, I understand that very well. Finding 1 on 1 's in the MA isnt difficult, and these are the ones that I enjoy more than the DA because of the uncertainty. My Rope kill I refer to was in the MA, as well as all of them, I didnt see what the DA has to do with this discussion.
Believe me when I say, "you have trained me (us) well", I have learned many times of what not to do that gets me in the tower, and at the same time have learned what to do to and how to do it. Tactics are fluid, constantley changing and adapting to what is encountered, we have also learned to be fluid.
If anything is to be learned by your readers is, learn what not to do first, this will teach you how to take away any advantage against you, JB made a mistake and he admits it. This is what has been pointed out, nothing more.
Your comments are welcomed, but not warranted. :salute
If your looking to flame, your in the wrong hole for your rabbit. :D
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: uptown on Yesterday at 07:11:27 AM
JB64 should have never tryed to climb up to you like that to begin with. That's just asking to die.
I agree, this was simply a target of oppurtunity, you had much more E and alt. you simply took advantage of it. It appears that JB did not intend on initially wanting to engage you, however he did nose up and misjudged your E advantage.
-
My comments are very much warranted in this regard...
What JB did, didnt, would or wouldnt do is not relevant in two ways...
1) Steve can only react to what JB did in fact do and if he had altered his action so would Steve. There are alot of tricks for hiding E on both sides. A lot of this is judgment related...this is a "how to" clip not a "dogfight" clip. Your basically saying "anyone could do that under those circumstances" and "you could have picked any one of a number of moves and killed the guy" {obviously paraphrasing here}. Well your wrong on both counts...
a) Presentation is everything, JB is no spring chicken and he didnt blithly fly up going gee I need a good face full of lead to wake me up. Shawk makes a living on this type of rope and its not all noobs who bite, he's gotten me more often then I'd like to admit...there is a fine line here.
b)Steve didnt pick "a move" he picked the right move and executed it perfectly. I can probably post dozens of clips where I literally am commenting on squad vox calling out a guy as "dead meat" for a minor "goof" that I know just killed him regardless of anything he chooses to do after. I also have a lot of films where I comment "I've got him now" just about 5 seconds before the sushi chef pops out and towers myoscar.
This all goes back to boscos misquided thread, in the end its all BFM. Its the when, why and how that gets you killed. How do you think the guys like me can post reasonable numbers in P-40's P-39's A-20's mossies, 110's etc. We're not picking and we're not flying with the horde and we rarely have alt, E or numbers...and god knows that the planes "we" fly arent going to do the job on their own. A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that Steve is a "pony ace"....take out the pony and you've got the answer. Good pilots fly solid attack profiles in all planes and pick the "right" move almost all the time. When they get fooled its because the other guy telegraphed option A and then went sushi...from the flip side when they get a guy like me (and they do) it's because they showed me they were "tuna" when they weren't.
2) If JB would have flown a different fight then Steve would have flown a different fight. Either way Steve is going to prosecute an attack. A big part of this is why the guy did what he did. He see's steve the whole way and still comes in...this is what steve is saying...I'm managing what the other guy is seeing to bring him in. Your viewing this from steves point of view in the film and going wow that was easy and the other guy was "stupid". We dont see the other side and just how "tuna" steve appeared to be.
-
like humble says, a well timed rope is just as much 'managing the enemy's E' as it is managing your own E.
-
My comments are very much warranted in this regard...
What JB did, didnt, would or wouldnt do is not relevant in two ways...
Its what got him set up to begin with.... very relevant.
Your viewing this from steves point of view in the film and going wow that was easy and the other guy was "stupid". We dont see the other side and just how "tuna" steve appeared to be.
I viewed the fight from both perspectives, thank you AH gods for allowing us that tool.
We can agree to disagree. The kill was made due to a mistake on JB part. That was the only advantage no matter what move he would have made.
-
Nah, tic-tac-toe would be HOing.
-
like humble says, a well timed rope is just as much 'managing the enemy's E' as it is managing your own E.
Good point. 'Managing the enemy's energy' is just as important in managing your own energy state in any sort of energy fight, it's also true in angles fighting as well.
ack-ack
-
We can agree to disagree. The kill was made due to a mistake on JB part.
This is important. Think this through: Why did 64 make the mistake? He's not a noob.
Answer: because I forced his error by presenting a tempting target in the spiral. I managed my spiral "coil" in such a way as to keep him enticed, to make him think he'd catch me at the top. 64 made the mistake because I executed the move correctly.
I did not find anything spectacular about your move.
You're missing the point of the whole thread, which was clearly delineated in my first post. The thread isn't about me making a spectacular move. The thread is about the fact that several people have asked me how I do it, so I am trying to help those who really want to know. You're correct in that the move is not spectacular. However, the spiral rope takes practice to be effective, I explained this in my first post. Also as I said in my original post, I don't make any claims at being skilled in this game, that's for others to judge. I'm just trying to help a few people out who asked.
-
One of my favorite ropes Steve. Thanks for giving it away! :furious
-
Steve, thanks for posting that film and giving your perspective on it. As a "trainee" pilot, I have a regular instructor and always appreciate extra input from the better sticks in the game. :salute
One note about JB64. Maybe two months ago Lambo and I were in a constant engagement with JB64 and squaddie of his whose name escapes me. We all got shot down at one time or another and we all shot everybody else down at one point or another only to keep coming back for more, until Lambo and I had to log. It was a great 2v2. :salute JB64