Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Yarbles on November 02, 2008, 08:47:59 AM
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We all know in this scenario that the bombers are way to fast late models or substitutes but what is with the 110's. Faster than Spits!!! this is nonsense the 110 in the B of B was slightly faster than the Hurri not around 50mph faster than the Spit.
Isnt it time we got the right planes to run this popular scenario which many consider the decisive battle of WW2.
When I look at the speed charts it is only the later model that was faster than a spit. Whoever set this thing up last needs to look at which 110 was made avaialable :furious
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Got news for you, but it was the early 110c that was used. I've been in it for all of Rangoon and now BoB. The real advantage of the 110c over the Hurri I and Spit I, IMO is WEP. The 110 has more of it and it recovers quickly, meaning in any sustained acceleration such as a long chase, the 110 will eventually pull ahead of the RAF planes.
Though I don't know for sure, I think the 110 WEP is a bit stronger or more effective as well. I was able to actually outdive and then pull away from both RAF plane types, though very slowly and not without taking wing hits. Don't know it it was all the aircraft, or partially the pilots and their differing levels of determination. :D
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The Spit Mk I is faster than the 110C-4/B at all altitudes except for 27k ft and above.
The Ju 88A-4 we have was actually a little slower than the Ju 88A-1 it replaced. However, it is true that the Ju 88 was significantly faster than the He 111s and Do 17s that made up the majority of the bomber fleet.
So, now we see the need for early war bombers? What? Still asking for the A-26? :devil
If you really want to get an accurate planeset for this scenario, add the following:
110C-4
He 111
Do 17
Ju 87B
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The Spit Mk I is faster than the 110C-4/B at all altitudes except for 27k ft and above.
The Ju 88A-4 we have was actually a little slower than the Ju 88A-1 it replaced. However, it is true that the Ju 88 was significantly faster than the He 111s and Do 17s that made up the majority of the bomber fleet.
So, now we see the need for early war bombers? What? Still asking for the A-26? :devil
If you really want to get an accurate planeset for this scenario, add the following:
110C-4
He 111
Do 17
Ju 87B
Bearing in mind how important the scenario is and how many people play it we need this.
On the speed charts the 110 is slower than the spit both with Wep at all alts but it performed significantly better than exppected in last BofB, Someone should look at this
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it performed significantly better than exppected in last BofB
For you maybe....as I played BOB06 no surprise on my side...maybe the pilots made the difference heh ?
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karnak has said in another thread that it isn't the early 110 C but a rare uprated engine version.
I agree the 110c is a tad too fast for my liking. But that is only because I want to shoot the bugger down and they are right to run :D
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karnak has said in another thread that it isn't the early 110 C but a rare uprated engine version.
I agree the 110c is a tad too fast for my liking. But that is only because I want to shoot the bugger down and they are right to run :D
I'd like to find that thread cause dantoo wouldn't believe me, I didn't search tho. Even if our 110C is 5mph faster that doesn't change the fact that if you get bounced by spits, death is really close.
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I'd like to see the do117 and the HE111 near the top of the new plane list for sure! I flew in BoB frame1 and those ju88's were FAST. It's an excellent scenario. I really enjoyed it as I flew with some gents I rarely run into... all those brits who normally fly at a different time than me. Good stuff and I look forward to the time when we can run this scenario with an accurate plane set.
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Read the scenario rules...
"5.1(c) All Bf-110 aircraft are required to fly with one engine shut down at all times to alleviate the unfair speed advantage over Allied aircraft"
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Well Ive made up my mind that in any future poll I will vote for early war Bombers as in Heinkel and Wellington and please High Tech re Model the 110c to make it B of B accurate. :pray
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karnak has said in another thread that it isn't the early 110 C but a rare uprated engine version.
I agree the 110c is a tad too fast for my liking. But that is only because I want to shoot the bugger down and they are right to run :D
It's a 110C-4/B, the fighter-bomber version of the very common 110C-4. They were contemporaries. The difference is the ability to carry bombs and improved DB 601 Ba engines over the original DB 601 B-1 engines; a prop/engine ratio of 1:1.88 vs. 1:1.55
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Well Ive made up my mind that in any future poll I will vote for early war Bombers as in Heinkel and Wellington and please High Tech re Model the 110c to make it B of B accurate. :pray
The 110C is BoB accurate, it's just the best 110 that the Luftwaffe had at that time. I would have no problem with a regular 110C-4 for scenario use, but you wouldn't notice much difference.
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We all know in this scenario that the bombers are way to fast late models or substitutes but what is with the 110's. Faster than Spits!!! this is nonsense the 110 in the B of B was slightly faster than the Hurri not around 50mph faster than the Spit.
Isn't it time we got the right planes to run this popular scenario which many consider the decisive battle of WW2.
When I look at the speed charts it is only the later model that was faster than a spit. Whoever set this thing up last needs to look at which 110 was made available :furious
Yeah,... that's your problem, the planes....
:rofl :rolleyes:
We've done our homework, spent some recreational masochistic time with our planes in the LWA, we know our planes and how to use them to their greatest effectiveness over the spits and hurris (that puffy ack on the other hand... :furious ).
I was escorting Ju-88s all during the first frame in a 109E4 at very high alt . They (the particualr bomber group my group was assigned to) couldn't of been going faster than 160-170 at cruising altitude, I was matching them with my cruise speed of just over 150 mph at cruising altitude.
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Although I do understand the frustration trying to match up planes based on speed charts, I have to say that's not the way we do things.
We use real in game checks to lay out the events. We spend a great deal of time putting planes in the conditions of the event, and seeing how they actually perform, and then balance accordingly. Oddly enough, we've ran BoB twice before, both sides have won very close fights, the plane balance is just fine. Far more goes into an event than matching the speed charts. Don't look to those as a major contributor to an event, you'll always be disappointed.
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NO matter what you RAF pilots do....
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i38/westoaksplaza/BOBMaP_EDITED_2-1.jpg)
:t
Enough propaganda, back on track here... ;)
I think it may just have to do with how each pilot flys their planes. I'll not continue, as you can talk about tactics in your scenario forum.
Which is where I thought this thread should belong in the first place.
:salute
Mathis
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The 110 outperforms the HURRI1 with out question...... The spit1 should out performe the 110 but not as well as the 110 does the hurri..... Im not sure about ultimate dive speed.... I know my wings were creeeking real good behind the 110 and it just kept getting farther away..so determination does not have much to do with it :devil
If you think the spit1 is that bad.. I would be willing to trade you for a slightly damaged hurri1 :devil
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Yeah,... that's your problem, the planes....
:rofl :rolleyes:
We've done our homework, spent some recreational masochistic time with our planes in the LWA, we know our planes and how to use them to their greatest effectiveness over the spits and hurris (that puffy ack on the other hand... :furious ).
I was escorting Ju-88s all during the first frame in a 109E4 at very high alt . They (the particualr bomber group my group was assigned to) couldn't of been going faster than 160-170 at cruising altitude, I was matching them with my cruise speed of just over 150 mph at cruising altitude.
:rolleyes:
I would like the scenario to be as historically accurate as possible hence we need to increase the plane set and have a representative 110.
Note the RAF fly Spits and Hurri's though the Spit is clearly the stronger plane.
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Welcome to scenarios. While your ride may not be the best, it's what you've got to work with. I tell myself that everytime I get in those paper a6m2s or lumbering B5Ns in PTO scenarios.
Trust that the scenario set and objectives are balanced to provide a fair shot at winning to either side.
:salute
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Representative 110? The 110C flew in the BOB...
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/battle_of_britain_aircraft.asp
What do ya mean?
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Representative 110? The 110C flew in the BOB...
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/battle_of_britain_aircraft.asp
What do ya mean?
See above. Our version has been identified as a rare breed.
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Representative 110? The 110C flew in the BOB...
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/battle_of_britain_aircraft.asp
What do ya mean?
That is a terrible website for aircraft reference. Wikipedia is more accurate than that.
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:rolleyes:
I would like the scenario to be as historically accurate as possible hence we need to increase the plane set and have a representative 110.
Note the RAF fly Spits and Hurri's though the Spit is clearly the stronger plane.
Are you sure Spit is the stronger plane?? The only advantage I can see with the Spit is that it climbs better and a wee faster than Hurri. I've had alot more success in Hurri than Spit. In flat turn Hurri does better than spit. It seems spit loses lot of E. Some of the veteran 109E pilots I've had fights with can actually turn within my Spit, but cannot do that with Hurri.
To me Hurri and Spit should pair up together. Where Spit can chase down the fast 109E and then have the Hurri finish it up when the fight turns into turning fight
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Are you sure Spit is the stronger plane?? The only advantage I can see with the Spit is that it climbs better and a wee faster than Hurri. I've had alot more success in Hurri than Spit. In flat turn Hurri does better than spit. It seems spit loses lot of E. Some of the veteran 109E pilots I've had fights with can actually turn within my Spit, but cannot do that with Hurri.
To me Hurri and Spit should pair up together. Where Spit can chase down the fast 109E and then have the Hurri finish it up when the fight turns into turning fight
Interesting. I always thought the Spit was the preffered ride. I thought it was allot faster.
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It is faster, too. But the hurri not only turns better, it rolls much better. I find it more difficult to fight Hurris than Spits in the 109E because it's much easier to get a guns solution on the Spitfire.
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See above. Our version has been identified as a rare breed.
I remember that thread as well, but can't find it.
Turned out if correct, it is actually the rarest plane in the whole game by a long way. (20 or so produced)
[edit]
Found something -
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,191748.0.html
Not the thread I was looking for though.
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We all know in this scenario that the bombers are way to fast late models or substitutes but what is with the 110's. Faster than Spits!!! this is nonsense the 110 in the B of B was slightly faster than the Hurri not around 50mph faster than the Spit.
Isnt it time we got the right planes to run this popular scenario which many consider the decisive battle of WW2.
When I look at the speed charts it is only the later model that was faster than a spit. Whoever set this thing up last needs to look at which 110 was made avaialable :furious
Want some (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/84/Cheese_Wheels_from_Bernese_Oberland%2C_Switzerland.jpg/300px-Cheese_Wheels_from_Bernese_Oberland%2C_Switzerland.jpg)
With that (http://www.terramiaristorante.com/History/wine_btl.jpg)
:lol :lol :lol :lol
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I remember that thread as well, but can't find it.
Turned out if correct, it is actually the rarest plane in the whole game by a long way. (20 or so produced)
[edit]
Found something -
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,191748.0.html
Not the thread I was looking for though.
Rarer than the TA152?
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Although I do understand the frustration trying to match up planes based on speed charts, I have to say that's not the way we do things.
We use real in game checks to lay out the events. We spend a great deal of time putting planes in the conditions of the event, and seeing how they actually perform, and then balance accordingly. Oddly enough, we've ran BoB twice before, both sides have won very close fights, the plane balance is just fine. Far more goes into an event than matching the speed charts. Don't look to those as a major contributor to an event, you'll always be disappointed.
I think some people want balance but for me if its an historical event I want for some reason authenticity. It might be hard to get people to fly Heinkels and Dorniers if they are so vulnerable or 110's which I read in practice had to be defended often by 109,s.
Its what I am looking for but maybe it just doesnt make a good game :cry
I would blance the superior planes with superior numbers on the inferior side but make the German planes fly over the uk which they did which meant more of them were always in transit especially the fighters. That is the game I want to play but I susspect that doesnt suit everyone.
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Rarer than the TA152?
Yup some 67 TA-152 aircraft delivered to the LW, only 20 of the rare 110-C4B
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Yup some 67 TA-152 aircraft delivered to the LW, only 20 of the rare 110-C4B
Well it should be tweaked back to the more common type obviously and that 5 mph would make a difference I suspect.
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I would blance the superior planes with superior numbers on the inferior side
I believe the scenario designers take this into account each and every time... Rangoon is a good example, as well as DGS. Who would fly in a scenario you know you're destined to lose? - except for me - I flew the Ju88 in Rangoon :rock
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Who would fly in a scenario you know you're destined to lose? - except for me - I flew the Ju88 in Rangoon :rock
Oh hush, we saved your butts in Rangoon. :D
...Well most of the time.
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The 110C is BoB accurate, it's just the best 110 that the Luftwaffe had at that time. I would have no problem with a regular 110C-4 for scenario use, but you wouldn't notice much difference.
As I recall, less than 30 Bf110C-4Bs were built. It is not correct and it is not representative.
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If I'm not mistaken....and I may well be.......aren't strat targets more important then fighter to fighter kills? (in BOB)
As in all Scenarios each side is given the tools to win.
It's how the tools are used to complete their objectives that wins the scenario.
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The 110C is BoB accurate, it's just the best 110 that the Luftwaffe had at that time. I would have no problem with a regular 110C-4 for scenario use, but you wouldn't notice much difference.
In that case there should be no problem with having a Spit II for the BoB?
The Spit II is BoB accurate, its just the best Spit that the RAF had at that time.
Sarcasm ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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In that case there should be no problem with having a Spit II for the BoB?
The Spit II is BoB accurate, its just the best Spit that the RAF had at that time.
Sarcasm ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hehe, all of this bitterness and resentment directed at me for pointing out a fact. :devil
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As I recall, less than 30 Bf110C-4Bs were built. It is not correct and it is not representative.
Correct here means "correct for our scenario." I agree it's not representative of the typical 110C-4 in service at the time. However, neither term is synonymous with "BoB accurate," and I can't help the fact that the 110C-4/B flew when it did.
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In that case there should be no problem with having a Spit II for the BoB?
The Spit II is BoB accurate, its just the best Spit that the RAF had at that time.
Sarcasm ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
coincidently, i'm slapping together a 1/48 monogram spit II.. it comes with bader's markings, too...
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In that case there should be no problem with having a Spit II for the BoB?
The Spit II is BoB accurate, its just the best Spit that the RAF had at that time.
Sarcasm ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Apparently the Spit 1B had Hispanos so lets have that if it was available.
Sauce for the goose and all that.
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The Hispano was a gas powered autocannon that initially had jamming problems in the colder climate of northern Europe. Those problems were not teethed out until the Spitfire Mk V made its appearance, and even then a 4x20mm armament was not widely adopted out of fear of malfunction.
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The Hispano was a gas powered autocannon that had initially had jamming problems in the colder climate of northern Europe. Those problems were not teethed out until the Spitfire Mk V made its appearance, and even then a 4x20mm armament was not widely adopted out of fear of malfunction.
Ill take it anyway :D
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Ill take it anyway :D
Yeah B of B was in August/Septrember and its warm then even in England.
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Not at 25k ft.
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Not at 25k ft.
25k !!!!! I dont fly rook.
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No, but you're flying allied in the BoB scenario, right? Therefore you're gonna reach 25k every frame, if not higher. Remember that typical arena altitudes are less than half of what was normal in the ETO.
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No, but you're flying allied in the BoB scenario, right? Therefore you're gonna reach 25k every frame, if not higher. Remember that typical arena altitudes are less than half of what was normal in the ETO.
heh...
fighting 20k+ is much different than in the weeds.
it's a lost/undiscovered art form for the majority.
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The Hispano was a gas powered autocannon that initially had jamming problems in the colder climate of northern Europe. Those problems were not teethed out until the Spitfire Mk V made its appearance, and even then a 4x20mm armament was not widely adopted out of fear of malfunction.
Almost -
Early Spit Vb suffered from the same problems because of the drum feed for the rounds.
Wasn't sorted out until they went to a belt feed mechanism.
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heh...
fighting 20k+ is much different than in the weeds.
it's a lost/undiscovered art form for the majority.
got that right!! :aok
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At 25k and below, the Spit I is the fastest plane in the scenario. Also, it turns better than all the LW planes.
As for historical accuracy, we have the best planes for accuracy that are available in AH. I bet we get the He 111 at some point, and then we'll use mostly those -- that's the biggest gap for this particular scenario.
One thing to keep in mind: For the scenario, we have LW:RAF of 1.56:1. In the real Battle of Britain, (LW fighters + bombers available):(RAF fighters available) was more like 3:1. With mostly He 111's instead of Ju 88's, probably we'd need to up the LW:RAF ratio a bit -- but we'll see when the time comes.