Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Naudet on February 27, 2001, 04:45:00 AM
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I play AH now for 7 days at what i think is totaly outta balance is the gunrange and the buff gunner accuracy.
1st, i usually get killed from distances beyond 500 yards. But every book says the maximum effective gunrange for a fighter was between 200-300 yards.
2nd, buff gunners are so accurate that u can use a B17 to clean an area from enemy fighter hordes. How often did i see XXX kill 4,5,6 or more, just to notice that he sits either in a osti or a B17.
Ok buff gunners in WW2 started firing at 1000 yards, thats right, but they were not very effective, a lone 4 eng buff was no big deal for a lone fighter, even if the fighter choose to attack from behind.
If WW2 buff gunners were as effective as the once in AH no LW pilot would have ever returned from a mission vs. 4-eng buffs.
U claim maximum possible realism for AH, why it than uses a gun system that would fit much better to X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter??
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Real life guns did not have trouble killing planes beyond ranges of 300 yds, the trouble was hitting the target. Most of us have been firing at simulated moving targets propably more than any pilot in WWII so our hit percentage is much higher than were in real life and we can hit targets far away which was not usual in WWII.
Bomber guns seem to be more effective than the ones in fighters but that might be because they don't have as much dispersion or concergence problem.
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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Ok than i dream all those 1 hit kills, while i can put 20 hits into a fighter and he flies as if there was nothing?
And today i was hit from 1200 yards, this is freaking BS. And all the lag in the rooms.
I have played on Fighter Ace servers with about 400 pilots, and only 1 outta 25 was lagging.
Here i can tell about 75% of the guys lag, they come in on my 6 i do a turn to the left, than to the right, he fires while he still is in a left turn, his tracers pass 100 yards behind me and BOOM there goes my plane.
And to tell u, i have traced my con, it is 175 ms, varianz and delay a always on the bottom, my con is OK i would even say my con is wonderful.
All people in here say, u played an arcade game, but i dont have probs with the flight model i have probs with the game performance.
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Here's my take on buff guns.
If I go on autopilot and man my guns, I have a 100% stable platform to shoot from. There is no buffeting, no turning, no nothing. I can plink people out to 1.5 with no problems at all.
Compare that to a fighter coming into a buff or another fighter. You don't fly a fighter into battle on autopilot. Each tiny little twich of your nervous hands will fudge your shot. In a fighter, there is not a stable platform to shoot from because you are moving the whole plane to get your shot. As opposed to the buff gunner who is just moving his turret around on a stable platform.
I have gunned for other people before. My gunnery goes straight to heck when gunning for someone else. Especially if he is not on autopilot and is actually flying the plane. Shooting from a turret in a buff that is actually flying is much more difficult than a buff on autopilot.
Regardless of buff gun strengths, or how many guns are shooting at you, I really believe the stable platform makes gunnery easier on a buff and results in cries of XW-TF and turbolaser buff guns. It's just easier to land hits from the stable platform.
As for connections, my prior connection (28.8 dialup) and my current connection (cable) worked great UNLESS there were Internet problems. I have never had low pings and seen more than the occasional lagger, and it's usually their connection issue (I've seen nowhere near even 1% of the flyers lagging). When I do see problems, it's on my end with high pings -- I have had a lot of problems recently getting to HTC through sprint but that's another issue. Just my experience.
Fury
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Naudet, something is going wrong for you. I'm not sure whether its your system or your connection, but no one else I know experiences what you are describing.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Fighter guns
The fighter guns are pretty well ballenced as far as range goes. Maybe occasionaly an 900 yard + shot will connnect but they occasionaly did in ww2. 300 yards is a good guns range in ww2 not a max one.
Bomber guns
Historicaly gunned bombers would servive about 8 seconds here. They have had their gun range and airframe toughness increased. The guns also autocordinate to shoot at what ever the gunner is shooting at. All this is so that people will fly bombers in the game.
If one buff pilot is cleaning up 4-5 of you that is just darwin at work.
Net lag.
It happens. But I dont see anywhere near the numbers you do. Its typicaly the German and Japanese guys that warp. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Try icons-off fighting sometimes. I wonder if you can hit beyond 300 yds anymore. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Based on my experience, the current icons are the biggest reason for the long gunnery ranges in AH. I'd like to see the range icon disappear when you're closer than 1000yds. At that range you should be able to judge closure and distance to the target anyway!
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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Pongo:
In short I cant agree with you when you say: "Maybe occasionaly an 900 yard + shot will connnect but they occasionaly did in ww2. 300 yards is a good guns range in ww2 not a max one. "That it is so in AH is quite true but...
Am reading "VIII Fighter Command at War" at the moment.Interesting book with systematizied (sp?)personal combat experiences of 24 veterans from the ETO, a "manual" supplied to all US fighter pilots in the ETO mid-44 onwards.
Of these 24 pilots *noone* opens fire beyond 300 yards, and most a good deal below that.Only execption is one p38 pilot (M E Hubbard 6.5 confirmed) who uses "under 500 yards".Also max deflection used is 30 degrees, several under that as well.Again Hubbard is the execption ("any deflection").
On the bomber guns I agree wholeheartedly: its a game balance thingy.
Consider this: AH fighter guns is a game thingy as well (not balance but rather fun factor).And please dont repeat the often repeated dogme that sim pilots are great pilots and even better shots.Even near newbies scores kills in here if bogie is just presented in front of him.
danish
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I agree the lethal ranges are about what one could expect from these weapons. Problem is with the physics between the gun platform and the weapons. In RL stresses on the airframe and atmoshperic physics played are far more dynamic role on ballistics than is modeled here or in any ww2 flight sim that I have tried.
I set my convergence at 500 and try to limit engagement distance too 400-600 yrds. I have reasonable success out to about 700. Anything after that is problematic (of course with the Chog you can flail away out to 1k and with a few pings still bring them down with relative ease).
To my undertsanding, turret and hand held light guns found on multi crewed planes vehicles and PTs are allowed an extra 500 yrds lethality range over wing and cowl guns for play balance reasons.
Yeager
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Danish.
I have the same book. I aggree that most of them follow the whites of thier eyes shooting technique. But are you sure there are no quotes in there about longer range fireing? are you sure....
I believe you are mistaken but I will look. But even then its one book. Buerling got a crossing shot kill that he estimated at 800 yards in a spit v. Was it 800 yards? who knows. But he apperently thought it was and he knew his stuff. It was certainly long.
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I am reading a book right now, "On Three Engines and a Prayer" and the B17 bomber group gunners were told to open up at 1000 yards. I also read last night where 25 rounds from the top turret gunner made a 109 fold up like tinfoil and destroyed the plane.
So whats the problem?
Curly
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Naudet-depending on what time of day you fly, there is a good deal of lag. The time of night I fly there are many people from Japan and other parts of Asia on, and I have seen some serious lag then. Also, you have to be careful of the buff gun tracers. Where you see them is not where they are actually firing. They might look like they are going to go over your head, then the next thing you know they are pinging you left and right.
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I agree camo. Enemy-iconless fights make REAL dogfights. Laser rangers and icons on enemy craft make all the careful modeling done to this game go to complete waste.
Without enemy icons the dogfights become so real and intense that you might actually develop a rubber neck paranoia when you drive on the highway.
Icons just make you into an omniscient pilot. In AH you only engage targets and then be jumped by someone higher a few moments later, or find somoene locked into your 6 because no matter what manouver you do, the smacking red billboard will give away your position... not to mention the near-impossibility of sneaking into someone unless you directly below them.
I just hope that 1.06 will give the CM's the ability to set the icons as an arena setting so we can have at least have the chance to fly the sim, not the game (MA).
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If most players seem to warp or have serios lag... chances are it's your connection not theirs.
Buff guns are not computer driven either... so when you get shot in AH, at least it's because there is somebody on the other end doing the shooting.
Buff guns have a concession due to net lag, that being their effective range has been increased. If it was not, you could zoom down on a Buff's six and sit at 900 and plink him, and due to net lag you are out of range on his FE. It is necessary to give the buff guns increased range to compensate. In addition, when you fire a buff gun you fire all guns that bear on the target. These consessions are necessary for gameplay reasons, since it is not reasonable for a player to have a 100 buff bomber stream. If the buff guns were "realistic", the buffs would be easy meat, and hence they would not be useable in the arena. The concessions allow them to be usefull in a networked environment even when flying alone. It has to be that way if you ever want to see buffs flying in the arena.
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
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Yes on page 97 the p38 pilot says he will take a shot at any deflection at under 500 yards. So what range with 0 defelection?
Page 41 Robert S Johnson
"Never let a Jerry get his sights on you. No matter whether he is at 100 yards or 1000 yards away, 20mm will carry easily that far and will easily knock down an aeroplane at 1000 yds."
Admittedly in reverse but remember this was meant for nebies and for most of them the thing to drive home was to hold your fire till you learn to shoot.
Page 107
"The best way to attack a twin engine plane is to close at high speed opening fire at 700-800 yards,"
Other books
Spitfire ace on page 61 of the Spit V aircraft of the aces book.
"Open fire at 600 yards and hold your burst till your right up to his props"
Same series FW 190 Aces of the western front.
page 31
",opening fire at 1000 meters"(against bombers)
anyway
I restate my previos postition. Saying that shots at long(>500) yards didnt work is not supported by any even shallow research. Certainly restricting the fire of a Hispano or 50 cal to 300 yards defeats most of its advantages. If you practice you can hit at longer ranges so could the pilots in WW2. Shooting at 300 yards(i try to in AH as well) realy increases your leathality but longer shots where certainly possible.
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Ibet that your sight isnt as accurate nor stable in real life as in AH.
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Yep, I dont care if I get shot at d1.2 if the range of the 30mm or 20mm was longer or at least as much as that.
Its the moronic laser rangefinders that allow people to use that long range capability at will against a fighter as small as a YAK (which I bet in RL would be *QUITE* hard to tell if it was at d600 or d1.2!).
Get a B17 and a YAK to up from a field in the TA and fly side by side. Then get on their 6 at d3.0, turn off the icons. Now get into the range you THINK would be d1.2 and then d400. Have the guys in the b17/yak tell you if you guessed right.
H2H iconless arena you will VERY rarely see a d600+ shot fighter vs fighter, but you will see them in fighter vs buff.
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One of the things Pyro listed as being added in 1.06 was gunsight shake while guns are firing. You better believe this will change how people approach shooting at long ranges.
Most planes will be very hard to aim in longer bursts and some even in shorter ones!
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You can bet that was added to stop people spraying with the NS-37 on the Yak-9T. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Preach on Tac .. I've been saying the same thing about the pilot's laser-ranging eyeballs since first day of Open Beta. I am yet to hear a single reason for maintaining icon range data within 1000 yds.
Keep the icon - dump the range!
And Tac, rather than provide CM abilities to control icon settings, I'd much rather see HT spend the time allowing H2H hosts to set icon types/ranges .... oh, and an 'autobalance' feature for H2H would be nice too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 02-28-2001).]
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Originally posted by Jochen:
Most of us have been firing at simulated moving targets propably more than any pilot in WWII so our hit percentage is much higher than were in real life and we can hit targets far away which was not usual in WWII.
Jochen, the US pilot with perhaps the most combat flight time in WW2 was Don Blakeslee, one time C.O. of the 4th Fighter Group.
Yet right to the end he couldn't shoot worth a damn.
I wonder how many targets we would be hitting at extreme range without the AH laser-sighting system?
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1st i want to state, i have traced my con at various times, to both Aces High Main Arena servers, and never got a latency of more than 200ms, its is in 99% of the time a constant 170ms latency.
2nd the icons will always be one main reason for shoots beyond 500 yards.
In FA we have a tagless room, and noone really noone opens fire in there beyond 500 yards, u ask why? Cause u think the tgt is to far away, and so u wait till u see it close enough to get a chance of hitting it.
And the tracers that fly bye and hit me even if they pass more than 100 yards, i am not talking about buff or AA fire, this i know has the effect to give u a wrong impression of the line of fire. I am talking of fire from fighters, that really have the wrong angle and direction to hit me but they hit.
But i will stay a while and look if it gets better, if not i always can delete my account and than this game probs will not hamper me anymore.
And the fact to me is, that in no book i found anyone that stats attacks beyond 300 yards. Only in H2H on 4 eng Buff, Ge pilots started at 500 yards and stopped at 300 with firing to be able to avoid a collision.
This is also prove by a guideline that as in any Airforce given to every Pilot "If u think you are close enough, get closer!"
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First, connection lag will always be a problem for some time to come. You just have to live with it, adjust for it and assume you are really closer than the system is telling you.
Second, there are no AUTO gunners on BUFFs. So... the accuracy you describe is all human and I don't think any adjustments should be made for that. It doesn't get any more real than that. It's not the guns that are accurate but the people firing them.
Third, it sounds to me like you're attack is giving them plenty of time to set up and take long shots. If you're making straight 6 o'clock approaches on these bombers you're begging to get shot down. I rarely get pinged at all by making slashing attacks from the 4, 8, 10 and 2 o'clock positions. If I do happen to attack at the dead 6 position and they start firing I immediately break the attack off and go for the 4 or 8 o'clock angle where few guns can fire and their accuracy goes way down. Fury is correct in that a bomber on autopilot is a MUCH more stable gun platform to shoot from. The few times I've gunned on a bomber with another guy flying my gunnery when WAY down cause he's jinking and moving around.
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My son has an AH account and when we are in TA shooting each other down, my FE when he's on my 6 will show for example:
D800
But on his FE, it shows:
D650
So, there is a disparity on your local FE compared to his. My advice, if its within 1000, then its too close.
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Not to mention that cannons have longer range than 50 cals (at least, thats what ive read, LW pilots would fire at 1000yds with their cannon).
*puts one robe with "iconless" arcane symbols*
"AND THE HEATHENS WILL BURN ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT! GONE WILL BE THEIR DWEEBLASERANGING BILLBOARDS, GONE WILL BE THE DAYS OF UNDESERVED KILLS AT DEE ONE POINT TWO-ETH, GONE WILL BE THE DAYS OF FEAR OF THE DEE ONE POINT FOURETH CHOGS AND NEEKS. AND LO! WILL THE DAYS OF TRUE ACM SHALL RETURNETH TO THE LAND, THE BLOOD, TEARS AND ENTRAILS OF ICONDEPENDANT DWEEBS SHALL FLOW OVER THE LAND AND OVER THE FEET OF THE RIGHTEOUS, WHO ON THAT DAY WILL EXACTETH SWEET REVENGE UPON THE INBREDS"