Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Tac on April 10, 2001, 03:50:00 PM
-
This may be a bit utopian or far fetched (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Is there any way to make buff waves as in:
Player selects buff. Then, just as fighters have fighter/attack options, give the buff pilots a Single/Wave option.
If player selects single option then he flies off just as he is flying now.
If player selects Wave option, then his guns DONT have that convergence or all-guns-aimed-at-same-spot benefits.
Instead, the pilot will take off with 2 more buffs (AI) that will follow him in a formation (player selected via dot command). Player would fly the lead buff and the other buffs would drop bombs when player releases bombs. If lead buff does a violent manouver, the AI buffs may lose formation and would try to get back, though I think they should just try it if the lead buff is within d10.. if lead buff is any farther, AI buff explodes. Safety through numbers, not turbolaser or sopwith-camel beatin turn rates!
Buff WAVE would allow THREE players (or more) to join that wave as gunners. If the lead buff is shot down, player (pilot) jumps to the next buff and so on.
This would remove the nonsense of current superbuffguns, would increase buff pilot's survivability by two times, give fighter pilots MORE targets AND will allow HT to remove the laser-guided norden sight crap and replace it with carpet bombing.
If just THREE players choose WAVE and take off from an airfield, that would be NINE bombers, enough to splatter even a large field.
HT, is any of this wishfull thinking possible?
-
your gonna bring out the guys who hate to get killed by buffs and the people saying you wanna be porker with that idea (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
------------------
Chuck Perry
"Sky61"
[This message has been edited by Skysix1 (edited 04-10-2001).]
-
I think the “single/wave” idea is pretty good. The way I think this may work is:
If you choose “single” you fly a bomber mission just like you do now.
If you choose “wave” then you go as a 3 or 4 ship group in a mission. This mission would be one automatically generated and in a list in the mission area. It would fly whether anyone joins it or not. They only drop as a carpet-bombing and the loadout and the bomber type is pre-selected by the “mission generator”. The missions would only be to targets such as: ports, cities, refineries, HQs, um… train yards, shipyards Army Forts, Armor encampments (well heck while I am wishing I figured I’d add some stuff (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ).
As a “ wave” or “group” all the planes would be “linked”, like you mentioned in your post Tac, to the lead bomber. Anyone besides the pilot would be a gunner 1 per plane that could switch around positions.
When this mission starts then an intercept mission would be generated on the “country” that the strike is going to. This could be announced as a “scramble mission” when the planes got to a certain distance from the target. If you join the scramble mission you would have to use the assigned planes but maybe a point bonus (or Perk Points or something?) for those who join the mission whether they live or die as an incentive?
The points generated by the bombers flight would be divided by the number of possible people joining the bomber flight (example: 3 bombers would be1 pilot and 3 gunners maximum of 4 persons). In that example it would be divided by 4 whether there were 1,2,3 or 4 people in the mission. Maybe the Bomber flight would also have to fly the correct flight path (to keep them from going for airfields) and if they strayed then the other AI controlled bombers would RTB.
I don’t think these flights would be a cakewalk because there would be a “scramble” order given that would tell the enemy where you are at and where you are going. Heck how much more you ask for. But then again… if the Bombing raid were carried out good and some escorts joined up it could cause significant damage to the enemy.
And being Automatically generated it would keep 4 people from creating 4 wave missions (12 aircraft if a 3 planes per “wave” for the same targets and rolling a country right off the map). Plus then in scenarios this could be used to create large formations of bombers if desired.
This may be a bit much right now the way the main arena is set up but in a continuing campaign I think it would work well if it were done…. Or if it could be done. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Chuck Perry
"Sky61"
[This message has been edited by Skysix1 (edited 04-10-2001).]
-
I think this would TOTALLY change the strategic dynamic of the game as we now know it. Rarely can you get 2-3 guys coordinating on bombing a base and a lot of times they come in singly. These bombers usually can't close a base single handedly and by the time their buddy comes along or they get back to bomb again the hangers are back up. With 1 person able to "fly" a wave of 3-4 bombers they could in a single attack (without cooperation from other playes which IMHO is part of the game) in a single pass wipe out a large part of the base (some of the larger bases have 4 FHs grouped together). What happens when you shoot down the human flown bomber? Do they ALL get shot down? Do you get 4 kills instead of one? What if you shoot down an AI bomber does that still count as a kill? Pilots could use the other bombers in the "wave" as a shield or as decoys to make it to the target. No, this idea might sound good in theory but I think its application would hurt the game.
-
I think youre getting it wrong spitlead.
"With 1 person able to "fly" a wave of 3-4 bombers they could in a single attack (without cooperation from other playes which IMHO is part of the game) in a single pass wipe out a large part of the base"
Not if they add bomb dispersion and get rid of the laser guided norden. Even with the laser guidance, only the lead buff would have that accuracy, the other buffs would miss a target with a good margin. Now, if FH's are close together and get hit (remember you must hit a hangar on the middle or the damage rarely gets counted into the hangar status).
"What happens when you shoot down the human flown bomber?"
You'd get a kill. Buff pilot would be switched to next AI buff in his wave.
"Do you get 4 kills instead of one?"
You'd have to shoot each one down. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
"What if you shoot down an AI bomber does that still count as a kill?"
Yes.
"Pilots could use the other bombers in the "wave" as a shield or as decoys to make it to the target."
having 2 other bombers in your "wave" is hardly decoy. Its safety through numbers.. just like they did back then.
an HQ raid nowadays is either 2 -3 lancs or 6 B-17's. With bomb dispersion that would make the buff's carpet bomb (thus they have 6-9 lancs or 18 b-17's respectively) and still be able to return home. Without the buff turbolaser, fighters would still have to fly through a toejamload of firepower. Add escorts... and you get some good buff attacks that have to be defended by good fighter interception...
and you get nirvana!
-
Gotta admit, I really like this idea.
In my newbie-ness I have only experienced one large scale mission where we had upwards of 12 B-17s trying to hit a target. It was absolutely awesome to look around and see all these B-17s and the potential coverage they could supply. It looked, well, realistic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
The only problem was none of us had gunners, and a lot of us got shot down because we were piloting and trying to maintain a close formation, not manning our guns. If you aren't within 1k (or closer) of some of your buddies, you might as well be alone, the other bombers will already have to shoot deflection on whatever is attacking you, etc..
It would be nice to have some sort of formation autopilot to fix this, but Tacs solution might even work better.
Even though I am an avid bomber pilot/fan, I too would like a solution to the guns problem. It just doesn't seem right for my kill count to be higher on a buff mission than it ever is when flying fighters. Downing planes from turrets was a tough prospect in WWII, I don't think there were too many of these guys who were aces.
The only concern I would have is that the formation would lay down more damage (even with bomb dispersion) than a single bomber does now.
Just my 2 cents (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Belt
-
Yep, that is, if the bomber formation suffers no losses (and it will if the superturbolaserbuffgun crap is dropped).
Just picture a squad like the D. Heavy B. Group... 6-8 guys flying WAVE. That would be... 24 lancasters! They can climb all they want, their guns wont smack the crawling fighters unless they sit at their 6 for a while, and they wont be able to out-turn them because if they do they would lose their AI formation planes lose 2/3rds of their protective firepower and bombloads.
The 24 lancs, flown by 8 pilots with maybe 2 or 3 gunners on the whole mission coming in on waves (buff pilots would be able to make "box" formations by ordering the AI buffs into in-line or abreast or v formations and setting themselves up) would be a formidable force indeed. However, the dispersion from hi alts would be considerable, making their carpet bombing effective if they arrive in numbers. (does that sound like RL or what?)
Thats where the enemy interceptors come in. Seeing a big number of buffs coming into HQ or a field, you will need many fighters up.
And, as someone said in another thread, the air war goes where the buffs go. In AH that is what's missing.. because there ARENT enough buffs out there.
The way I see AH with this modification is countries which would be engaged in a furious air war, large formations of buffs trying to close down strat targets and fields, escort fighters trying to get them there, enemy interceptors trying to shoot down as many buffs as possible so the damage doesnt close their dar or fields, while trying to wage their own buff offensive.
Does that spell BUFF SQUADRONS being needed? Interceptor/Escort squadrons? This literally makes a role for each AC and player type. Buff pilots have their joy, fighters have their joy, Furballers have their joy (if 24 buffs and 6+ escort fighters raid constantly coming in doesnt look like a good furball, I dunno what is). Even the strat junkies get their kicks.
HT what say you? This possible?
-
I am not sure if i like all of this, but the idea of an auto formation commando sounds good. Weather you are fighter or buff, it could be an option to "hook" up to your leader with an outo formation key. When done your plane will follow the leaders movements until you break out of auto, as you do today in auto climb etc.
Specially for buffs this would be handy. Instead of struggling to keep formation, and hardly being able to man guns.
-
Don't like it at all.
IMHO, ALL flying things should be flown by a human, not an AI.
That includes the two extra aircraft in a wave.
nothing I hate worse than killing mindless drones in a game that's about human vs human fighting (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
-
It's an interesting idea, but I think Santa is right. If you want to fly in formation, join or form a squad.
We've done it plenty of times in No.272 Sq. Three B17s in close formation flattening a base - it's great fun. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Colossally bad idea.
What happens when one guy looses an engine... well, he drops out. What do the AI bomber do then? RTB? Okay. The arena would be filled with drones from all the failed missions.
Better yet, get a 'wave going' then bail... that way you can distract the enemy with 'chaff' b-17 drones flying all over the place!
Hey, while we're at it I want an AI wingman to follow me around!
UGH.
I like that every plane has a human mind operating it.
This is AH, not everquest.
~Lemur
-
Originally posted by lemur:
Colossally bad idea.
What happens when one guy looses an engine... well, he drops out. What do the AI bomber do then? RTB? Okay. The arena would be filled with drones from all the failed missions.
Better yet, get a 'wave going' then bail... that way you can distract the enemy with 'chaff' b-17 drones flying all over the place!
Hey, while we're at it I want an AI wingman to follow me around!
UGH.
I like that every plane has a human mind operating it.
This is AH, not everquest.
~Lemur
Good Point!
The reason I like online stuff and rarely play offline anymore it the "human" challenge.
So I then must offer up another idea (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
How about all missions are generated either by an AI or preferably a person (moderator or country "leader"). The only way you can fly is choose a mission from a list.
There should be tons of missions to choose from and a few "free flights" where you could just pick a plane and fly but they would be from the fields more in the rear areas.
All the missions would not take off unless maybe 75% filled. Then you would have waypoints to follow that could be adjusted by the "flight leader"and then maybe during the flight there could be a couple "alternate targets" that could be offered up and the flight leader could either change the primary target or release a plane or 2 to the alternate.
Fighter Missions could be set up the same way only base defense mission would allow you to immediately takeoff if the base is under attack. As Fighter missions are flying they could recieve the same alternate routes that could guide them to other threats that the flight leader could respond to.
The main thing about this idea is insuring the missions are meaningful and lots of them to choose from. There could be a "value" placed on the missions too where you could stand to gain more points for flying one mission compared to another. For instance a flight 75% full will only gain you 50 points where a flight 100% full could gain you 100 points.
I just picked 50 and 100 as numbers not as whatever the points are. hell I dont have a clue how this game is scored and never really cared but at least there would be incentive to completely fill the flights.
I think you get the idea. I gotta go... I forgot I am supposed to be working (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
------------------
Chuck Perry
"Sky61"
-
As i mentioned earlier, a auto formation feature would still be nice. Just like we have auto climb ets.
To be able to hook up to a leader and have the plane auto follow his moves would help in missions.
This should only work for moderate moves. I would not like to see a wingman on auto in combat (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
-
Lemur, since the Wave is attached to the player that launched it, a disco or bail would inmediately make all buffs in that wave blow up. That is why the lead buff (aka player) would be quite aware that any sharp turn (aka, becoming an F-26 of F-17) would make his AI buffs lose track of him and will blow up if they cant rejoin formation in X amount of time.
"nothing I hate worse than killing mindless drones in a game that's about human vs human fighting"
And im sure you love fighting buffs that can turn with your zeke and hit you with 37mm cannon equivalent guns. The Wave option would remove the supergun crap, the fighter-buff crap and introduce safety through numbers.. just like in real life.
A player does NOT have to go in a wave, they can still fly a solo buff and fly with other solo's in their own wave.. though a squadron using WAVE would not only have 3 times the protective firepower, 3 times the chances of living and 3 times the bombloads, but it would also be extremely fun to have a lot of buffs in the air in a realistic raid.
"If you want to fly in formation, join or form a squad"
Thats the whole point. There arent enough (if any at all) dedicated buff squadrons, nor any dedicated buff drivers to portray realistic buff operations in the game.
"the air war goes where the buffs go. In AH that is what's missing.. because there ARENT enough buffs out there.
The way I see AH with this modification is countries which would be engaged in a furious air war, large formations of buffs trying to close down strat targets and fields, escort fighters trying to get them there, enemy interceptors trying to shoot down as many buffs as possible so the damage doesnt close their dar or fields, while trying to wage their own buff offensive.
Does that spell BUFF SQUADRONS being needed? Interceptor/Escort squadrons? This literally makes a role for each AC and player type. Buff pilots have their joy, fighters have their joy, Furballers have their joy (if 24 buffs and 6+ escort fighters raid constantly coming in doesnt look like a good furball, I dunno what is). Even the strat junkies get their kicks."
I'd like to add to that... what would you, as a buff pilot rather be in? a solo buff attack or a buff formation of 9+ buffs? You, as a fighter pilot, what do you prefer to see? A single buff outurning you and spraying 20mm cannon at d1.2+ or a 9+buffs that wont turn, wont spray turbolaser, but that are a great threat to your country and have 3X the guns to bear on you from different angles ?
Anyone remember those fricken HUGE buff raids that Hangtime organized against rook HQ 2 tours ago? Were they 15 buffs? with escorts? The whole game suddenly CHANGED. People were suddenly taking off in groups without planning it, people on radio calling out alt and heading of buffs, a level of realism and coordination that was out of this world. The game that day become a SIM for once.
I see AH with this option becoming very close to simulating the Air War during the 40's.
Which is why I'm asking HT if this is something that may be done, if only to see if it works. Maybe use the SEA and try this out or something.