Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: funked on February 14, 2000, 09:03:00 PM
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All I know is that way too many engagements are settled at 750 yards or so. Not a whole lot of ACM required to do well in this sim. Point nose in general enemy direction, spray and pray, get kill, repeat.
It seems like very few hits are needed for a kill. On my end I usually hear two or three. Maybe five at the outside. I can't remember the last time I needed more than 10 hits to down an enemy.
There are many of anectdotes of fighters coming back home after taking dozens of MG hits. The most hits I've heard of by a 20mm gun is 20 or so. These real events simply could not occur in AH with the current settings.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-14-2000).]
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Is the number of hits = number of bullit hits or is it a generalization? I don't think that the bullits are too strong or go too far myself. IMHO there are ALOT of pilots here that log more hours than the combined total of every ace in WWII.
Also take into account your ammo load doesn't really count overall. If you run out get down fast replane and get going again. IRL you didn't have that luxury and had to make sure you had enough ammo to protect yourself on the flight home.
If you were on bomber escort just chasing away the fighters was good enough. If ya got a kill outta it then great!
If wind was modeled then a cross wind would really through the aim off. Or a strong headwind. But the bullits are modeled exactly to the gun HTC has stated before so IMHO it is just the great gunnery of our community overall. <Cept for me <G> >
S!
Rocket
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The Red Dragons
Fierce and Bold
With Honour and Courage
_______________________
www.reddragons.de
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You can double those pings that you hear, never expect to hear exact amount of hits (coz of lag & code)
You might get hit 10 times, but you might only hear 2 pings.
Though, one thing is for sure, theres too many gunboats flying (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Any plane has some superb 2x20mm or less and more superb 4x20mm.... what do you expect (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
But one thing is for sure, planes must be too stable, which makes it possible to do long range shots.
It's also what rocket says, alot more experience...
IMO, I don't care of planes with lotsa big guns, I like more those ones with below average armament (like 109s, specially earlier ones, of course, without pods)
Though, I have got B-17 down with 60 rounds remaining on one 20mm, with 750-850 yards shots (bouncing from below few times)
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Rocket; modelling a constant "wind" would have no effect whatsoever on air-to-air gunnery. Air-to-ground, that's another story...
Funked; I don't think the guns are too strong, more like the planes are too weak! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I am yet to see a sim with a DM that gives results that resemble guncam footage, pilot accounts, photos etc...
EG: FIRE! - It simply isn't modelled as a destructive force. Only as a graphical nicety. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Was just reading some information about the development of the M61 20mm Gatling gun in a study done by the Air Force. Their data showed that with five 20mm cannon strikes, enough damage would result to reliably disable or destroy a fighter sized aircraft. There was no date for the report, but it was during or prior to the Korean war and before the development of the M61.
I recall that Hans-Joachim Marseille shot down 6 (if memory serves) airplanes with only 14 cannon shells and a small number of MG rounds (40?) on one mission. I wish I could remember the source to verify the numbers (Aces Of the Luftwaffe, maybe). It was an amazingly low qty of shells owing to his deflection shooting prowess. Erich Hartmann found that only a few 20mm rounds to the IL-2's oil cooler would result in a kill on an otherwise heavily armored airplane. They are the exception rather than the rule but showed how effective a few cannon hits could be against single engine aircraft.
It seems that in AH, not unlike history/RL, rewards accurate cannon fire with a lot of damage. Take a .303 armed Spit up, though, and it will likely take a lot more than 10 hits to do any damage much less critical damage; Especially beyond convergence range. Don't fire the 20mm secondary weapons, only the primary four .303's to aprreciate how many hits it takes to do serious damage.
Spray and pray is prevelent in any sim because "lives" are easy to come by. Get shot down and a new airplane with a full load of ammo is ready. Unlimited lives, airplanes and ammunition for a low monthly fee <G>. When scenerios start, however, (where you have one life to live) people will be a lot more conservative and careful with their maneuvering and shooting.
MiG
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Heres a question:
Currently the majority of the planes flying score their kills with cannon, 20mm being the most common. This I find is fairly correct, 20mm has been documented many times as being able to disable a plane in 3-6 hits especially in somewhere vital.
But are our .50 cal and 13mm machine guns in fact being treated in AH as mini cannons?
I find it extremely hard to swallow when I see 6 .50 cals blow wings off a B17 or when 2 .50 cal bomber turrets knock off the wing off a chasing plane. While I have no doubts it was possible to do I think the amount of MG bullets required to literally saw off a wing would have been tremendous!
But here is the real question! Is in fact the MG being used as mini cannon's because AH doesn't have any pilot deaths?? I started wondering about this when I flew the G2 and .205 MG only version for awhile. Several times I had shots where I was blown away by the effects of the small caliber MG. With the veltro I caught a spit going up as I banked sideways. I raked him going vertically by me from just behind his prop right back to his tail with 13mm and 7mm with little apparent damage. I bent his stab and rudder a bit but I was shocked his pilot was still alive.
The other occasion was when I came down ontop of a climbing 190. I hammerred the top of his cockpit with a very long burst of 7.9 mm. It passed right through =his cockpit and killed his engine. Afterwards he told me the only damage he had was a dead engine and "Pilot wounded".. wounded my arse, more like a hunk of leaky meat!
HTC is this why .50 cal do so much plane damage? Because it cannot kill the pilot? I am fairly sure from what I have read and seen in gun cams this was in fact the most common way of killing with MG. Not by smashing the plane apart but rather by using the hi powered .50 cal to kill the pilot.
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
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In AGW there is loud discussion of 109K4's 30mm gun effectiviness.
It took only 3-4 shells to blow B-17, Lancaster or Halifax, prolly only 1 shell for fighters.
Hard to say if modelling is porked, but if HTC will change it, it means HUGE flame war!
Same effect as W*B had after gunnery changes.
I don't have anything negative to say about current gunnery. I fly 109G-2 only and I know I have to be very close and hit something to make kill. Recently I've surprised myself of thinking about getting some gun position before spraying, and that's good thing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Sorrow[S=A]
I was under the impression that the pilots death was modeled. I attributed the leathality of a top view snap shot to the pilots vulnerability to it. I had also noticed that the defensive fire of the B17 seemed very likly to totaly destroy my AC befor I could bail. (as apposed to disabaling it so that I could spiral down and bail.) I attributed this to all those MGs coordinating on my AC making bail impossible.
Funked I can not hit anything on a routine basis at over d500 except bombers. When I see people behind me at d1000 spraying me and getting occasional hits I realize that their FE is saying d700 or so. If I was able to jink at all then the long shots are ineffective. Not a WW2 pilot but the engagment ranges and the effects of good and bad shots seem good to me.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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I fly the cannon Hog and I can't get hits out past about 500 with any reliability. Sure, if an enemy is running straight and level at high speed I can spray enough cannon to hurt him at 700-900 yards, but it takes a TON of ammo, even in the F4U-1C.
Everybody keeps complaining about long range gunnery, but I STILL haven't seen a single film that shows a kill I think is un-reasonable.
I find the lethality of all the weapons to be very well modelled. I don't think any of them are too strong or too weak. The BUFF guns are a bit weird because they will have 7-8 .50's converging on a single point, so it's very hard to judge.
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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Flew the P51 for first time since V.34, seemed too "Uber" before, I prefer a challenging A/C.
Anyway, I had a Niki in front of me that I hit with .50 cal. from a distance of 800yds, yes, he was flying straight and level, I saw about 5 strikes on him and POOF, he was gone.
In regards to Leph's post, I too have never had success in the FW's or the F4U's cannons over 500 yards, probably my bad aim not compensating for bullet drop enough, one thing is for sure, that .50 cal on the 'stang sure is a lazer reaching out.
Just reporting, not complaining, not saying its right or wrong, just reporting.
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Rip1~Warbirds~)
"In training, upon being told it was time to
solo, the instructor said, “You tried to kill
me enough times, now try it with a check pilot.”"
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-15-2000).]
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Are Guns too Strong?
I guess I have to respectfully disagree.
Not sure exactly who you have been up against in the arena or what kinds of planes, but maybe I have been lucky and encountering all the baby seals (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Yes if you are flying a .50 cal plane, you can get light weight hits on a badguy from far away, but only if he is flying straight and level for a long time. A low G turn will defeat long range gunnery every time. And it still takes a crap load of ammo to do it. And the .50's are not that lethal (most of my sorties are in Pony's). They take solid bursts at convergence to do serious damage.
Now I won't argue that 20mm's (especially with x4 of em) will rip you a new orifice in a heartbeat, but isn't that the way it should be? And to be honest, I find the 20mm's hard to hit with beyond 400-500, even if the other guy is not defending himself (ie impossible, unless a buff). Anytime I fly the N1K2, C-Hog, or La5, I have to seriously readjust my gunnery, because of the much more pronounced drop in velocity, and slow rate of fire.
Then again it may all just be a matter of flying style. I fly BnZ, and E style, so I prefer guns to be lethal. One pass, One kill is a must if you want to survive in a E-Fighter.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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You guys must be playing a different game...
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To give another example of how long range 50cal shots arent inordinately lethal, I was in a fite with a Stang which was about 1.2k behind me and I was in the process of roping him. He finally figured out what I was doing and began trying to spray me from long range. Tracers were flying all around my cockpit and I even heard a total of about 5 or 6 pings. No critical damage whatsoever.
If he had been closer, it woulda been curtains for me but since he was so far back, I was safe. Sure you can get an occasional ping from long distance but he had probably fired 15 seconds to manage those 5 or 6 flashes.
-Ding
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RipSnort sez: "Anyway, I had a Niki in front of me that I hit with .50 cal. from a distance of 800yds, yes, he was flying straight and level, I saw about 5 strikes on him and POOF, he was gone."
That my friend, was a pilot kill. You can certainly throw a huge number of .50 cal bullets in a short time, and it only takes one lucky shot for a pilot kill. It happens. Just remember you didn't do very much damage at all, you just got lucky and hit the soft squishy bit. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Also Ripsnort, the F4U's cannons are much better than the FW's, trajectory wise. The Hispanos are damn near equal to the .50 cals in that regard, but there are far fewer rounds being thrown out there.
funked sez: "You guys must be playing a different game..."
Don't know what you mean. Please show us by posting a film. Until you do we don't know if there is really an issue or if it's just your perceptions that are out of whack.
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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Re: Ripping off a wing with .50's
Remember, the wing has a lot of load on it and the spar is the part really carrying the load. Load increases when pulling G. Hit the spar with a good burst and it _should_ rip off.
Once again, I'll submit anecdotal information from my father. He tells of sawing small Japanese coastal freighters and supply barges in half with the 8 .50's in the nose of his B-25 using 8-10 second bursts. No doubt, the load on a hull helps split them as well.
The 51 is spitting out 800 round/min from 6 guns. A 5 second burst will definitely "do" any part of an airplane you hit near convergence.
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Originally posted by janneh:
In AGW there is loud discussion of 109K4's 30mm gun effectiviness.
It took only 3-4 shells to blow B-17, Lancaster or Halifax, prolly only 1 shell for fighters.
Why does it need over 10 30mm hits into buffs before they disassemble? *G*
At least last time when I shot a buff, i emptied my whole 30mm magazine into it, most hits into tail, about 20 hits overall hit the plane from close, 1 stab was lost.
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Are Guns too Strong?
I guess I have to respectfully disagree.
Not sure exactly who you have been up against in the arena or what kinds of planes, but maybe I have been lucky and encountering all the baby seals (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Yes if you are flying a .50 cal plane, you can get light weight hits on a badguy from far away, but only if he is flying straight and level for a long time. A low G turn will defeat long range gunnery every time. And it still takes a crap load of ammo to do it. And the .50's are not that lethal (most of my sorties are in Pony's). They take solid bursts at convergence to do serious damage.
Now I won't argue that 20mm's (especially with x4 of em) will rip you a new orifice in a heartbeat, but isn't that the way it should be? And to be honest, I find the 20mm's hard to hit with beyond 400-500, even if the other guy is not defending himself (ie impossible, unless a buff). Anytime I fly the N1K2, C-Hog, or La5, I have to seriously readjust my gunnery, because of the much more pronounced drop in velocity, and slow rate of fire.
Then again it may all just be a matter of flying style. I fly BnZ, and E style, so I prefer guns to be lethal. One pass, One kill is a must if you want to survive in a E-Fighter.
Actually what I've read, 20mm should be more lethal than 12.7mm round from far, because 20mm has more mass, which gives it more range (also, it should help bullet with piercing armour)
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Originally posted by MiG Eater:
I recall that Hans-Joachim Marseille shot down 6 (if memory serves) airplanes with only 14 cannon shells and a small number of MG rounds (40?) on one mission. I wish I could remember the source to verify the numbers (Aces Of the Luftwaffe, maybe). It was an amazingly low qty of shells owing to his deflection shooting prowess. Erich Hartmann found that only a few 20mm rounds to the IL-2's oil cooler would result in a kill on an otherwise heavily armored airplane. They are the exception rather than the rule but showed how effective a few cannon hits could be against single engine aircraft.
Actually he didn't just spray from 500 yards away or so, he did fire very very close.
I bet he were shooting much more closer than you can even think about in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Not arguing with you in the least Fishu.
Where did I say anywhere that a .50 cal (12.7mm) should be as deadly or more deadly than a 20mm?
In fact I know quite a bit about aircraft guns and their corresponding lethality, check out my website I have an indepth writeup there on that subject.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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"I fly the cannon Hog "
sums it up
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LOL funked!
Why don't you just post a film and show us all? Yeah I do fly the cannon hawg, but I can't get the long range hits you are talking about. And this plane has the best long-range hitting power in the game. The Hispano's have the trajectory and velocity of a .50 cal MG round, and have explosive payload when they get there to boot.
So yeah, I fly the cannon hog and I can't get long range kills. I guess that does say it all. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The gunnery model is fine.
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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I'll have to figure out how to use the film thingy I guess. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Also remember my complaint is not the range. It's the number of hits required.
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Agree with funked.
Been killed lots d6-8 on my FE (I know : lag..).Record so far is lost rudder to a hog at d14.Hosed a 109 down at d8 the oter day in a 2x20mm Fw (But I *am* working on close up shooting..).And no I havnt got film.
But one thing I like for sure: you can acturally kill in LW iron.
danish
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I do know one thing.
In both AW and WB's over the years, during all the never ending lethality debates, the developers and other informed people have always commented that if we had truely "realistic" gunnery model most people wouldn't like it.
This is because traditionally lethality was severly toned down, for "playbalancing" and for "fun fights".
<shrugs> I am not sure who is right, but I like the current gunnery system.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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MiG Eater:
Yes it was "HORRIDO! Fighter Aces Of The Luftwaffe"
...he (Marseille)often landed with less than half his ammunition expended (Bf109). And this from missions on which he had scored as many as six kills !.
...We (Galland's staff) found that that Marseille needed an average of only fifteen (15) bullets per kill -which is tremendous.
Pages 83-84.
Fishu, couldn't find any statement of firing distances, but there was one mission explained and he started firing on first kill about 100 metres (Curtiss).
He shot down 8 enemy fighters in 10 minutes on that mission !!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
[This message has been edited by janneh (edited 02-16-2000).]
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Oh and here are the pics for 30mm lethality (stolen pics, sorry):
(http://www.dlc.fi/~cool/30mm.jpg)
(http://www.dlc.fi/~cool/mk108hit_2.jpg)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Not arguing with you in the least Fishu.
Where did I say anywhere that a .50 cal (12.7mm) should be as deadly or more deadly than a 20mm?
In fact I know quite a bit about aircraft guns and their corresponding lethality, check out my website I have an indepth writeup there on that subject.
Where did you get idea to think that I was thinking so?
You said there about finding 20mms harder to hit from distance... though, I don't see much bigger problems there, actually ive done far hits better with 20mm.. (usually quite much more effect in those than never expected)
Juzz: I have done kills also with 10-15 hits average in 109s :P
I haven't flown either since beta ended, actually, quit that already couple days before, because I got bored up to routine, with same planes, nothing new.. and 3-7 kill sorties with 109G2 (without pods)
(love that plane, guess those good luck insignias has something and with my nationality)
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Ya know I hadn't had a chance to fly Patch 3 until the last coupla days. Don't know if it's placebo effect or what, but it seems more reasonable now. I'll just shut up and fly. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Well guys, yesterday was my first day in the pay arena, and my first sortie up with a F4U-1C, i made a short burst at a spitfire of about 6 rounds, three pings lit up and the plane exploded. Distance was 650m.
I have no arguments with the gunnery modeling or coding. I got 3 kills that sortie and still had 240 rounds in each pair.
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Garrett "SC-GManMP" Pella
Skeleton Crew, "E" Flight
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Janneh NICE pics!
And just think - those are unloaded ground tests. Under flight loads even skin damage can result in structural collapse. I've seen the MK 108 and ammo in person and it's an evil looking piece of equipment. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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GManP - I'm not sure 3 rounds was enough to explode a Spitfire in real life.
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3 rounds of 20mm HEI or API into the main fuel tank could potentially cause an explosion wouldn't it? And doesn't the Spits main tank sit right behind the pilot?
And aren't pilot kills, effectively "explosions" in AH?
I am pretty sure that HiTech and Pyro have some kind of "golden BB" type of effect in the damage model. At least my Pony feels that way sometimes.
Just asking (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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The Spitfires fuel tanks are right between the engine and the pilot.
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here is the film that everyones been looking for. i get serveral hits on a 51 at 900 to 950 distance http://members.xoom.com/awcon99/long.zip (http://members.xoom.com/awcon99/long.zip)
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Uh.. I don't think this demonstrates the point.
The hits you get don't really do any damage. You hosed that guy down for a LONG time, and you really don't do any damage until you get in closer. Remember that the P51 is quite weak, one of the easier planes to damage right now in AH, but it still takes a lot of time for you to even slightly damage this guy. If you spray enough ammo you will eventually do some damage... but nothing in this film looks "wrong" to me.
Thanks for posting the film though Robert. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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Verm - Yeah 3 lucky pings might blow up a real fighter. Not sure you have to be lucky in AH though.
Of course all I have to go on in AH is my "perception" - no numbers.
And to compare with real life, I have even less to go on! Just pilot accounts and a few photos.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-18-2000).]
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Its an extremely difficult issue to quantify.
I remember back when I did my original lethality calculations for WB's (back before hoof, was HOOF).
There really isn't a very good scientific or engineering method to use that I ever found to quantify "toughness" in a relationship to "lethality".
The only thing I ever did find, was that old luftwaffe study that gets thrown around endlessly.
I do know that its a real life issue even today. I found during a websearch that the US Air Force has a whole set of laboratory's that study the issue currently in depth, they had a really neat website showing some of their current work (wish I still had the URL). I wrote email to several of the people working there, hoping they would comment about the WWII aspects of it. Unfortunately none of them wrote me back, or even acknowledged getting my mail.
Bastiches! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Basically its fairly easy to quantify how "lethal" guns should be (simple application of force). But trying to decide the "toughness" of just about any aircraft is guesswork and "feel".
Which is basically known as the SWAG method.
Scientific Wild bellybutton Guess. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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I'll tell you what I do know for sure. There are a lot of WB guys who don't like to fly here because the guns make a lot of ACM useless.
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Jeez I hate disagreeing with a squaddie (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
But to be honest funked, one of the reasons I hate flying WB's anymore is that there the guns are so weak, every fight ends up a conga line on the deck with a train of fighters (friend, enemy, friend, enemy) back and forth between bases.
Honestly, lets get together and test this. But I can't think of a single offensive or defensive ACM move in the book that I can't or haven't used in Combat in AH.
Horizontal Scissors, Vertical Scissors, Barrel Rolls, Bunts, Snap rolls, Spiral Climbs and Dives, Loops, Split S's, Immelmans, Hi Yo Yo's, Low Yo Yo's, Hammerheads, Chandelle's, lead pursuit, pure pursuit, lag pursuit.... what am I missing?
Now true, with the more demanding Energy Model, you can't do endless defensive manuevers and continue too run away like in WBs, because manuevers saps your speed and the bandit sucks right up your six and nails you.
You have to think ahead, plan out your defensive strategy, and hope it works. No manuever I know of is a "sure thing", but thats good.
But what am I missing, what specific parts or types of ACM don't work here? To be honest this really confuses me, since I KNOW your twice the pilot I am, and I have had pretty fair success in the arena. This makes me fell as if I am missing something. Realistically, I wouldn't expect to win 20% of any 1 v 1's with you in equal planes.
So (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) please Explain slowly but fully, in simple terms, how the ACM is not effective because the guns are too deadly (and this is from a pilot of the "Glass Tailed Mustang Species").
I'm just a poor dumb ingamuneeer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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I watched this film and saw the long range pings too. I didn't see any killin', though, till things got a lot closer.
As far as making ACM useless, the ONLY guys even getting hit at long ranges (and I'll leave damage out of it here) are the ones going steadily away either straight and level or in shallow climbs or dives. Is that ACM? Any kind of jinking pretty well renders long range gunnery pointless.
Instead of ACM, that seems more like trying to be the perfect long-range gunnery test target! Give the guy 5 minutes of shots to try various holdovers, fer pete's sake!
If the thought is that the guns are too strong at short ranges, I disagree. A 2 sec burst from a -51 at any convergence inside 500 yards will put 160 big, high energy slugs into a small area. Those will simply trash ANYTHING made of aluminum or magnesium like engine blocks, wing spars, flight controls..in short any part of an airplane that isn't armor plated and a lot of the armored parts too.
If you don't think so, you haven't spent much time shooting high-powered centerfire ammo at stuff like old cars and trucks. It's a great way to mis-spend some youth. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As far as the WB guys...hey, ya pays yer $1.50/hour and ya takes yer choice. <Or maybe you pay something like .30/hour if you play AH and ONLY spend 100 hours online a month. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) >
A long, long time ago in a thread very similar to this (da DAH da da DAH DAH!) I mentioned that it MAY not be the guns. It COULD be the damage model. As Vermillion points out, that is very tuff to quantify and program. The ballistics are really pretty cut and dried and generally easy to quantify.
Let's make sure we hang the right guilty man before we go stretching ropes!
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I'll tell you what I do know for sure. There are a lot of WB guys who don't like to fly here because the guns make a lot of ACM useless.
I *know* that this is true. The guns on all the planes in general seem too deadly to me too.
A couple pings and that wing folds every time. Doesn't seem to matter if it is .50 cals or what.
Just opinion, not facts.
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hblair
JG 77 (http://members.home.net/mtalbert/) WB's Historical Arena & Events
The ASSASSINS (http://members.xoom.com/_XOOM/rowgue/index.html) WB's Main Arena, ACA
Luftwoobies Sturmgruppe Kommando Aces High
(http://heathblair.tripod.com/Spitflame.JPG)
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 02-19-2000).]
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Vermillion do you have Shaw's book? There is a balance between weapons envelope, turn radius and turn rate that makes WW2 combat unique. IMHO the current guns envelope screws up this balance. The set of useful ACM in here is a lot more like what is described in the sections on all-aspect missile environments than the sections on a guns-only environments.
There were a lot of maneuvers used in the war that were effective only at ranges where AH guns would shred a con. Why were they effective in the war? Because a plane couldn't be easily shredded at that range in the war. Zoom climbs, spiral climbs, rope a dope, scissors, etc. You can only do these in AH if the other guy is a poor shot.
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I use all of the moves you mention with success online funked.. on a regular basis. Ok, I need to leave a bunch more leeway than I expect because of netlag.. but all of these maneuvers work, and work well. I also see these moves use against me on a regular basis, and they seem to work VERY well for the other guys! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You need to remember that everyone in this sim is a FANTASTIC gunner compared to your average WWII pilot. (Save some of the very expericenced Luftwaffe pilots.) Just because we have some crack gunners in this sim doesn't mean the model is wrong. I also don't think we should mess with the modeling to try and "play balance" against the crack shots in the arena.
Now remember, I started out on your side of this argument. It was not until I took up Pyro's challenge to film it and tried a bunch of long-range gunnery myself that I came around to this side of the debate. The testing I did and the films I tried to get, simply confirmed that the real issue was that I was under-estimating the effects of lag. Once I started factoring more of a buffer into the timing of my moves to account for lag, I had no problem. I almost never get hit in head-ons, and I pull off defensive moves and turn the tables on the enemy a reasonable amount of the time. If it was as you insist, I shouldn't be able to turn the tables like that, or even survive a 15 minute scrap with a better turning plane as we work down to the deck. I think the problem is you are used to the WB gunnery model that is not as realistic and has been "play balanced" to try and compensate for lag and the great shots we have in these sims. I think the way AH does it is the right way, and I don't see a problem with any form of ACM in this sim as a result.
I hate to keep harping on this but... somebody please show me a film of this behaviour. I respect your opinion, but I just don't see what you are seeing. If we can get a film of it, we can all review it and examine it from our different points of view. If we see something that's out of whack, I'll gladly admit I am wrong! However, if nobody can show my point to be wrong, then I think those of you on the other side of the debate need to admit that maybe you were mistaken.
Just FYI, I have been conducting lots of training sessions in the training arena. I generally fly the F4U-1D (yes D) and although I can sometimes get hits out to 900 or so, I never seem to be able to do any damage at that range. Even in the C hog, I can sometimes get a ping or three out to 900, but nothing much happens as a result.
I've got a ton of experience, testing, and films that support my position in this debate. If somebody will show me some evidence to the contrary I would love to see it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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Sure do Funked, and I always end up going back and reading it again every several months. Usuallly when my luck starts too turn bad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
What sections are you refering too in particular?
I think Lephturn may have right of it. Its my experience (and I have always flown both AW and WB's concurrently) that each game has its own individual timing. And usually its a matter of which one you fly the most, as too which one feels "right", because this is how you have trained your reflexes.
Come to think of it, when I started to fly AH, I died alot when I thought I shouldn't from my WB's perspective. It was frustrating. But I guess, I gradually adjusted my timing to fit this game, and now it feels right too me.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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There's two recurring themes here:
1. It's too easy to hit at long range <"the guns shoot too far/too accurately">.
2. The guns are "too lethal (strong)."
HT has repeatedly said he feels the ballistics are as close as we are likely to see. Ballistics are, in fact, the characteristics _most likely_ to be accurately modeled in any sim. The data is plentiful and proven equations are readily available.
Yet there is continued "flak" that the AH ballistics are "off".
I'm going with HT on this one. No one has posted ANY ballistic data for these weapons that would contradict HT. All we've had is speculation, primarily from people that have never shot such weapons. The comments we HAVE had from military guys that actually USED these guns pretty much supports HT's position.
If the ballistics are right, then if you get a hit you should be getting a hit. Ballistics are pretty simple computations and I trust HTC on this.
The leathality issue is much harder. We've seen the photos of "test shots" and the damage is huge...from single cannon rounds.
Having helped restore several WW2 aircraft, I can attest to the fact that they are built to minimize weight with sufficient strength for the task at hand. Generally, strength is always sacrificed to save weight and increase performance. They are only "built tough" where they have to be and "built tough" is an aircraft relative term. Everything else is slanted towards minimum weight/sufficent strength.
Drop an engine's magnesium camshaft cover on a concrete floor from waist high and it will probably crack. Smack it with a ball peen hammer and it will split.
Modeling damage is very subjective. There are too many "it depends". Depends on where the shot hits, type of projectile, range, strength of structure hit and on and on and on.
Comparisons to other sims are meaningless in terms of "realism" too. The other sims are wagging damage and playbalancing to suit their idea of how long/how many hits it takes to destroy an aircraft.
They <any of them> don't know for sure either. They've just tinkered until it "seems right" to their audience. That doesn't make it the standard by which others should be judged.
Show me where the ballistics are incorrect. If muzzle velocity, trajectory, bullet's ballistic coeficient, sectional density, etc. are WRONG then we need to see some changes.
If you want to argue DAMAGE, then admit it is subjective and no one really knows. As someone said in one of these threads, even the USAF is working hard on programs to model damage and they're having a tough time.
Damage is a "playbalance" thing and probably always will be. You just can't get exact data.
This is not true of ballistics.
Have a nice day! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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"1. It's too easy to hit at long range <"the guns shoot too far/too accurately">.
2. The guns are "too lethal (strong)."
Actually I'm saying #2 allows #1. Because each bullet is a 105mm howitzer shell, a long range spray-and-pray technique will work because only a tiny hit % is needed. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Juzz just picked up my Spitfire pilots manual and looked at the cut away.
No the fuel tanks aren't right behind the pilot.
But an oxygen tank, a compressed air tank, and a flare container (never knew this was there on a Spitfire) all sit right behind the pilots armor.
If any one of those three got hit, it could cause a explosion/critical failure and rip the rear fuselage right off if the aircraft was pulling G's. Especially in conjunction with three simultaneous 20mm hits.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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I still don't see it funked. shrug.
I do notice it tends to be the WB folks that have the most "issues" with the gunnery and damage modelling though. I think as Verm mentioned, that is likely the crux of the issue.
Interestingly enough, if you go to the WB training site and read Worr's guns defence lectures, the ranges he gives to start your moves still work in AH. I assume things have changed in WB since the "old days" when those articles were written.
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Funked
Are you routinely getting wacked at over 450 or so? I rarely am. And conversly except for big old bombers or some one who is hanging in mid air showing me his full plane view I rarley do terrible damage at over 500. I have in a f4u1c taken a FW down from over 900 but he just ignored me, and it took all of the massive amount of ammo the corsair had. And he didnt explode he stalled with smoke and pieces and then I got him on the decent. I like the guns, I like the signifigant differences in accuracy rof and ballistics of the different guns. Most of the time people shoot at me I dont die which seems to be what you are saying.
Most of the time I HO I die but shaw would hardly argue with that.
I hope you find some way to enjoy the game more, I dont think that your experiace is typical.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Just to recalibrate my thoughts, I went back to <ahem> "that other sim" last nite.
I flew around Offline shooting at planes for a while to get back into the groove. <Mostly to try long range gunnery on poorly maneuvering AI targets>.
Then I went online and flew two missions in a Spit V and a Hurri II <early planeset>. I think I got 2 kills and 2-3 assists.
Admittedly, this is a brief peek there but it doesn't seem all that different from when I played a lot before.
My thoughts are that the guns <ballistics> do allow hits out to about 700 maybe even 800. It's tough to get them though.
The main reason for this is the old pixel ratio bugaboo. It's not that you can't REACH the targets with the guns, it's that you can't see to aim. The AH zoom makes a real difference in this regard, primarily on a non-maneuvering <no ACM/runnning> target.
As far as damage or "leathality", it seems pretty clear to me that the "other sim" has toned down leath. I guess this makes the fights last longer so that you can do some of "that pilot sh*t, Mav". In any event, I view it as a "playbalanced" item, not one based in hard data.
It took significant numbers of 20mm from 200 yards to kill two Spits. Used a large proportion of my cannon ammo, observed many, many hit flashes before fatal damage occured. I am of the opinion that this would not be the case in a RL situation.
All in all, I don't think it was any harder or easier to kill there. It just required a different technique. The sorties felt very similar to those I fly here.
Nor did I observe any real difference in ACM applicability between the two games. One Spit never saw me close on his 6; the dream shot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). He died easily but took quite a few hits.
The other guy was a marvelous spit driver. A great fight that lasted 2-3 minutes. The major difference was that I started above him, perhaps the KEY move in ACM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) . He took many, many pings.
So what would the other game be like with a "mathematically correct" zoom option? My guess is that it would be VERY similar to what we have here. Wonder why that would be (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
As a side note, the new Med terrain struck me as huge. Takes a long time to get anywhere. I never could shake the feeling that I could hear the meter running (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-20-2000).]
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Pongo - No I don't worry about when I get whacked, because due to net lag, I don't know what the range was on the other pilot's FE.
I'm basing my comments more on what's going on at my end.
I'm enjoying the game, thanks. I voted with my dollars and my feet even before the trainer applications were requested. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But I know a lot of pilots that find the WB dogfights a little more enjoyable because there is more of an emphasis on flying than shooting. A lot of potential customers!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-20-2000).]
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Lephturn:
"I do notice it tends to be the WB folks that have the most "issues" with the gunnery and damage modelling though"
Yes, because WB has long had the best modeling of weapons and damage of any online sim! We're spoiled!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-20-2000).]
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Funked,
I have only played WB offline and I agree that guns are less leathal there. For my curiosity, do pilots get 8+ kill missions there? Its rare here but 9-10 kill vulches do happen. It was certainly possible in WW2 to get 7 or so if you where a god and the bad (good) guys cooperated. And they did that with 1* 20 and 2 + 7.9mm. Would that be possible in Warbirds with its lessend leathality? Do we want it to be possible?
If you force an attrition model of damage into the game then many important planes like the 109 become less effective. Or do you then increase just there effectiveness to compensate?
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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funked,
I know WB has long been the best for a realistic gunnery model, but AH has leap-frogged it IMHO. I think the real issue is that the WB gang is having trouble switching from an old "high velocity basket balls" playbalanced model to a realistic one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I'm sure you guys will come around eventually. <G>
Pongo,
In WWII, nobody would be silly enough to try taking off from a tightly vulched field... repeatedly. The opportunity to vulch 10 guys in a single mission would just never occur in real life, IMHO. I think HTC has made the correct choice. Model the gunnery and damage as accuratly as you can and let the chips fall where they may.
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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Thats not what I said Leph.Sorry wasnt clear. I was asking if on a dampend lethality model would one of the German pilots 7 kill sorties be possible. Obviosly the weapons were capable of it, even 1 * 20 and 2 * 7.9.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Sorry Pongo.. misread your post. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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Has anyone mentioned the perfect radar each aircraft has? and its perfect distance measuring devices? I think if this was available to the vets back then long range shooting would have been widely used, imagine if the icon system was better, I know for one I would never shoot until the screen was filled with plane. Now I can make a gunsite that has death dots for different ranges, because I have radar constantly computing my range for me. One day the perfect icon system, we can only hope. Its not the guns, its the ease at shooting long range with them. hmm i just thought of something, how are the hit sprites modelled, at long range a ping fills the whole aircraft, is it then modelling a hit on the whole aircraft at long range?
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Dnil
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer
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Dnil,
Welp... since we don't have a 3D display and hence no depth perception, we must have some way to judge range. Please feel free to suggest a better system. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As for the hit sprites you ask about. I'm sure the hit sprites are a constant size, so against a farther away plane, the sprite will look bigger. As far as I know, that has nothing to do with the hit or damage modelling. The hit sprites are just a graphical way to let us know we are hitting something with all that lead we're chucking around. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) AH models every round fired with the most detailed damage model I've yet seen in a simulation. So no, it's not modelling a hit on the whole aircraft.
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and letting her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war
Steve Earl
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Pongo: There was just recently a new version of WB released with a new damage model. I haven't played it much so I won't comment.
But for previous versions of 2.5, 2.6, and 2.7, yes 8 kills or so was about the upper limit for a plane like the Me 109 or Yak-3. I had 7 in a Ki-43 once.
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Good articles on this topic:
http://www.combatsim.com/htm/feb00/gunkill-1.htm (http://www.combatsim.com/htm/feb00/gunkill-1.htm)
http://www.combatsim.com/htm/dec98/ace9.htm (http://www.combatsim.com/htm/dec98/ace9.htm)
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Leph about pilots not taking of from a vulched field in real life... I have to respectfully disagree (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)... look at this link...
http://www.dogfighter.com/interviews/show.php3?interview=950208601 (http://www.dogfighter.com/interviews/show.php3?interview=950208601)
this a bit from that interview...
'But they had a remarkable airplane in many ways [Bf 109 F] the times we would attack or bomb the airfield or we would fly across to strafe them they would take off in front of us and climb and stand on their tails and climb right up above us. Before we could turn around and circle the field they'd be coming down again. '
BEE
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/190sbee.gif)