Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: funked on July 07, 2000, 04:56:00 PM
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IMHO The inflight AWACS display and 5 mile IFF and laser range finder are not appropriate for a WW2 sim. In WW2, pilots had to get INTO the fight before being able to make IFF distinctions and estimate enemy numbers in most theatres. In our game one can figure out all this stuff even before making visual contact!
Here is an alternative scheme:
Icons:
1. No icons beyond 4,500 yards.
2. At 4,500 yards start a range number.
3. At 2,500 yards add type ID.
4. No range number for bandits within 1,000 yards.
This still gives us significantly more capability than a WW2 pilot, but it's closer than the current system.
In-Flight Radar:
1. No individual plane blips, ever.
2. Sector counter bars only in those sectors which have radar. If you knock out the radar, that sector loses the counter bar.
3. Add a .vector command which gives a heading and distance to the nearest enemy aircraft within range of a friendly radar station.
Again, the proposed system is still beyond the capabilities of WW2 pilots and aircraft, but less so than the current system.
Now I can understand if HTC wants to retain the current system in the Main Arena in order to make the game easier for newbies. I won't like it, but I can accept it. But please make it possible for CM's to set up the SEA or other arenas and try out schemes like I have described above.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 07-07-2000).]
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Do that or something real similar, and you will have my 30 per back, I promise.
Lizking
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"2. Sector counter bars only in those sectors which have radar. If you knock out the radar, that sector loses the counter bar."
I'd say keep the sector counters, they simulate the whole radar/observer network, and are key to finding a fight. Just increase the time between updates.
popeye
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Simplest solution is to just pull the "dots".
btw, is there a write-up of what all the arena commands do? I think theres about 15 settings for radar!
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...But sadly only 2 settings for icons.
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I'm totally in favor of experimenting with the icons. Right now, they are a bit overdone. Here's a few of my previously posted thoughts...I haven't changed my mind much since then.
Here's a few points to ponder. These thoughts are based on a non-historical arena, where all sides fly all planes. Strict Historical could/should be different.
Ranges would have to be hashed out but that's an area that affords easy experimentaion once the overall system is set.
1. At long range, a plane <whether friend or foe, fighter or bomber> should just be an unknown dot.
2. As range closes, one would be able to distinguish a dot as a bomber earlier than a fighter. Therefore, some sort of "buff" ID should show at a range that would still be a dot for a fighter. At this range you couldn't tell friend from foe.
This means a dot could be either a long range plane of either type or a closer fighter that is not yet distinguishable. You just couldn't tell.
3. As range further decreased, some kind of "fighter" ID should show that would be different from a bomber. You should also now be able to tell, in some way, friend from foe, perhaps just a red dot at nose, tail and wingtips. This assumes that we would <in Real Life> be distinguishing plane type. Again, this would be a different range for a bomber than a fighter.
4. Now, after IFF range, add distance information. Range info should perhaps only be shown in 1k or .5k increments to avoid the rapidly running counters. I would not show range beyond a certain distance <a yet to be determined "threat" range> and I would remove it as the aircraft comes to "guns range." Absolutely cut out range info inside of 1k (essentially max guns range). You need IFF here, but you don't need range when you're ready to shoot. That should be part of pilot skills and judgement.
5. I would have no aircraft type ID available at ranges that allow you to distinugish that info from the graphics. (determined for the lowest resolution avail). I would allow some simple "type" info at ranges where you could see it in real life but not on a monitor.
Different colored dots, arrows, numbers...any of these could be used to provide this type of information while minimizing and shrinking the huge icons we now have.
I hope we do experiment!
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Well, it doen't look to be a real hot button issue here Funked. Ah, well.
Lizking
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What more needs to be said ? By all means im for experimentation. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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It would be a pain but sector dots could be used IF there were friendly planes in the area. You could have a key mapped to notify field of enemy. IE I find a group of enemy headed to the field I alt-N to radio location back to aircontroller so it can be broadcast to all other planes.
If you don't radio it in to the controller it doesn't get posted. If you get killed with no other friendlies around then the info is gone.
Would be a pain in the bellybutton to code I am sure but would be the realistic way to do it.
S!
Rocket
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If we are experimenting, lets try this:
Radar towers on fields and scattered about, like the ETO in WB. Make the range about 5 miles MAX(to compensate for map scale).
Inflight you can see the dots from your country's CLOSEST radar, as long as they are not bombed out.
For icons, I like friendly icons out to about 2 miles, enemy icons the same. Enemy icons dissappear at about 1000 yards, friendly count out in 10 yard increments inside 500 yards.
The icon should be a colored icon of the country, red for enemy, green for friendly. It's size should vary in inverse relation to the apparent size of the plane, shrinking away totally at 1000 yards for enemy and changing into a range counter/name/plane type at 500 yards for friendlies.
Friendly Names, plane type, etc, should be toggle-able on your system.
CM's should be able to set 'em all.
Lizking
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Nevermind...
popeye
[This message has been edited by popeye (edited 07-11-2000).]
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Just curious, why do you dislike the dots? Is it because you can't jump someone without them knowing it? Or because your bomber/Jabo formations can be seen from miles away?
Historically, you had a primitive radar and ground observers plotting every move of 2 or more enemy fighters (unless they went under radar) so, the dots seem realistic to me, since German pilots had radios, the the ground plotters had the ability to report as the formations moved in. Thus, the information could have been transferred to the pilot, no? They have cut the fat off (ground observers) and given us in-flight "ground observer" points on a map, big deal!
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Hey, I really like that .vector idea
Historically radar gave a good idea of enemy altitude as well. The automated response could give that info "PlayerX your neerest bandit is at 2-7-4, angles 3-5 for 15, over."
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Funked made a good suggestion... however, I would add/change the following:
1. No icons beyond 4,500 yards.
2. At 4,500 yards start a range number. (but no red or green color!!!)
3. At 2,500 yards add type ID. (color comes in as well)
4. No range number for bandits within 1,000 yards. <---I disagree with this one. This would result in a lot of midair collisions during scissors or other evasives.
1. No individual plane blips, ever. (Agreed, but I do want to see dots when the planes are near a field.)
2. Sector counter bars only in those sectors which have radar. If you knock out the radar, that sector loses the counter bar. (YES!)
3. Add a .vector command which gives a heading and distance to the nearest enemy aircraft within range of a friendly radar station. (yep!)
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Yes, please keep the range counter from (at least) 4500 all the way in to zero. When my monitor gets stereoscopic vision, then we can talk about taking oway the range counters.
I still agree with the whole premis that having to fly using a 2d monitor takes soo much oway from your ability to percieve information visually that the icons are necessary.
Mark my words, if they take oway the icons, they WILL loose customers. Not saying I would leave, but I would bet my bottom dollar on it.
Originally posted by Tac:
Funked made a good suggestion... however, I would add/change the following:
1. No icons beyond 4,500 yards.
2. At 4,500 yards start a range number. (but no red or green color!!!)
3. At 2,500 yards add type ID. (color comes in as well)
4. No range number for bandits within 1,000 yards. <---I disagree with this one. This would result in a lot of midair collisions during scissors or other evasives.
1. No individual plane blips, ever. (Agreed, but I do want to see dots when the planes are near a field.)
2. Sector counter bars only in those sectors which have radar. If you knock out the radar, that sector loses the counter bar. (YES!)
3. Add a .vector command which gives a heading and distance to the nearest enemy aircraft within range of a friendly radar station. (yep!)
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Errrr...
First, icons are always a burning issue in any game. Second, I'm with funked on this.
What's wrong with the current system?
A. Visual identification of enemy planes occurs at way too far a range. This encourages an unrealistic sort of cowardice and discourages sneakiness. If you can see and ID someone from 5 miles out, just about all engagements are decisive: if you get into a fight with someone, one of you is going to walk away. It's pretty hard to make the other guy lose you when you need at least 30 seconds to get out of icon range. In addition, the element of surprise is greatly reduced. Some of y'all might think this is a good thing, since it "helps the newbies", but in actuality it isn't. A player learns how to run the view system and check six far before learning to precision the ACM necessary to win in a dogfight. Giving someone the opportunity to score a low-six bounce is both rewarding and realistic.
B. Information on the position and numbers of enemy aircraft is way too precise. This isn't a pay-per-play game. My guess is that if we enabled this stuff only in the tower, we'd see b efore too long players doing at least part-time GCI. And no, it's not a simple analogue, as information radioed to pilots was more vague than the dots on our screen, and was certainly not real time. Come on, I'm over my own base, and there are 5 enemies and 3 friends in the air. I can glance at the map, and see not only where the enemies are, but which ones are being engaged by friendlies, which ones are harassing friendlies, which ones are threats to me, which ones are about to bomb the base, and which one just happened to sneak up on my six. Really folks, did those GCI guys make six calls (Blue 7, bandit 50 yards your six!)?
The sector bars themselves are excessive: We all know that each sector square indicates 1-2 A/C, and when a square shifts from one sector to another, we have a very good idea of where the plane is at exactly that moment. Heck, the sectors (and the pixels of overlap between the "painted" and "real" sectors) have become an integral part of my flight plan, which probably should not be the case. Further, the "ground observer" argument is a little absurd: when 1 plane taxis onto the runway at a far rear enemy base 150 miles away, we know about it immediately.
I like sector and unit info in the tower only.
Even better (a compromise would be to put this into the cockpit) would be to do something like what BOB/SWOTL had: update the map every five minutes or so. Even better: every five minutes, update it with the info from five minutes ago (you login, you get the sector counters from the last update, the dots don't appear until the next update). Damage to the communications infrastructure could increase the age of the data (i.e., updates reflect the situation 10 or even 20 minutes before).
C. Range within 1000 yards. Well, having flown for a while at 800x600 (currently I'm between computers; be back next week), I'm of the opinion that you need some sort of indicator of closure up to 500 yards (how about redshift? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ). Still, having the range down to the last yard is absurd and a ridiculous aid to gunnery.
Dinger
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"What's wrong with the current system?"
This thread is NOT about the MA, right?
IMO icons/radar in the MA are just about right. (The only changes I would make would be to delay sector counter updates a bit, and remove icons from ground troops.)
For the SEA or (future) HA, I'll be glad to try other icon/radar setups.
popeye
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Come on, as the only person to come out in favor of the current MA icon system, it'd help to specify what you like about it, or why IYO it's superior. Heck, even I can throw out some possibilities:
1. BVR IFF facilitates long streaks.
2. I really enjoy not having to check my six every couple seconds.
3. Bomber intercepts are a joy when you get rid of those unreliable GCI dudes.
4. Surprises are unpleasant.
5. In stern chases against planes with a higher top speed, the yard counter lets you know the precise moment to start praying: so when he starts pulling away at 847 yards, you can open up.
6. Plane sizes vary, so the range counter really helps gunnery.
:P
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Originally posted by Dinger:
C. Range within 1000 yards. Well, having flown for a while at 800x600 (currently I'm between computers; be back next week), I'm of the opinion that you need some sort of indicator of closure up to 500 yards (how about redshift? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ). Still, having the range down to the last yard is absurd and a ridiculous aid to gunnery.
Dinger
I hear ya Ding! This is exactly what's wrong (IMHO) with the icon-off events in the SEA. Planes are a dot far too long in AH and you can't tell closure on a dot. Is he coming or going? You won't know 'till it's way too late.
I do get a fairly decent plane shape at 1k on my monitor and so can begin to get a handle on closure there. But I can see where others might not.
Lots of room to experiment. I just wish we would!
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Okay Dinger,
IMO, the MA is not about realism, it's about fun. So, an icon/radar system that makes it possible for the casual, infrequent, or newbie player to log on, find a fight, and have a good time is just about right. I think the current system does that pretty well.
In my tour as trainer, I've flown with raw newbies who couldn't track or hit the most cooperative target, even with the "ridiculously easy" icon/radar sytem that we have. I guess we could say that AH is just not the place to learn to play a multiplayer WWII sim, and that only hardcore experienced players need apply. I don't make business decisions for HTC, but I doubt that they want to be so exclusive.
Some players think that the current system is "too easy", and it detracts from THEIR fun. This is why I think a more challenging system would be appropriate for another arena, along with other attributes to appeal to the more hardcore player.
popeye
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My only gripe with the icons is that the most important aspect of combat, SURPRISE is completely removed by those friggin billboards.
Reducing the range at which they appear will bring the element of surprise back.
How many times have you folks been able to avoid a bounce just by quick-panning around looking for those big-red-letters?
Better yet, what is the point of "realism" with such eagle-eye capacity? HTC might as well make all airplanes behave at their best at any alt just to balance this icon bull out.