Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Fishu on July 10, 2000, 06:37:00 PM
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Made a series of testings today with F4u-1c, Typhoon and Fw190A8 against panzer.
Results were quite stunning for the hispanos(!!).
F4u-1c and Typhoon took down panzer within one or two passes, from every angle - worst approach corner was behind the tank, where only turret and driver wounds came couple times, but still usually blew up on first pass. (There were not a single time that panzer didnt get disabled or destroyed by first pass)
Fw190A-8, with 4xMG151/20, no firing with 13mm, resulted in several passes on the tank, on every corner, even from right top of the tank.
I don't recall killing any panzers with Fw190, most were that I managed to disable turret maybe.
Also, lets mention that most of the shots were fired within close range in Fw190.
In typhoon / f4u-c, only low amount of 20mm were needed; 50-150 (about 150 rounds were used in case when tank got disabled from behind, but did not explode) rounds per tank (this does also count misses)
Notable here is that panzer did not survive from low or high angle attacks from ahead made by F4u or Typhoon. (with Fw190, driver got once wounded from attack in front)
So, currently Hispano is the super weapon, if not against planes (doubtful that its only against tank) it is at least against tanks.
There is serious need to fix this issue.
I did also record films.
One thing I find intresting here though, is that I see more tracers come out from F4u and Typhoon than from Fw190 relative to use of ammo, in the film.
In flight there were more hits with 190 than in the film (and less tracers visible in film than I saw)
I once drove 109 with 30mm right into the tank and laid fire, nothing, lol (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Me and airreapr tried that in training room the other day . U want to kill tanks ? Use Typhoon .
cheers spro
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Not sure on the hispano front but the 190A8 armed with 2*20mm and 2*30mm and 2*13mm does practically nothing to a tank. I straffed some tanks a while back (might have been patch 1 or 2) with the A8 in that config about 5-6 good passes but not a scratch. I re-uped and gave them another good hosing but still nothing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
Whassup with that?
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Originally posted by Fishu:
So, currently Hispano is the super weapon, if not against planes (doubtful that its only against tank) it is at least against tanks.
There is serious need to fix this issue.
This past weekend I was into a B17 being followed by a Tiffy (long six). At d1 I saw clearly two tracers (I suppose they were really four tracers, but only saw two, and only ear two hits), and my right wing blew off. Dont know how many bullets are fired per tracer, lets suppose four bolts per tracer, lets suppose all of them hit my plane. The conclusion is alarming: between 8 and 16 20mm hispano rounds are enough to cut B17 wings at almost 1km.
Another example. Zoom climb with a 190A5, F4UC climbing at my six (d800). My A5 was gaining separation quickly. At d900 the HogC began to spray'n pray. One hit, left aileron out. Two seconds later, two more hits, left wing out and on fire.
Some H/H tests (no combat) with 190A8 vs F4U1C:
1 - A8 (275 mph and acelerating) and F4 (constant speed of 250 mph) level flight, A8 at long six of F4 (d2). The A8 scored the first hits at d500. F4U1C destroyed at d400.
1 - F4U1C (275 mph and acelerating) and 190A8 (constant speed of 250 mph) level flight, F4U1C at long six of A8 (d2). The F4U1C scored the first hits at d900. 190A8 destroyed at d900.
So, currently Hispano is the super weapon, also against planes.
I wonder why to develop a weaker weapon like the M61A1...
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Originally posted by Spatula:
Not sure on the hispano front but the 190A8 armed with 2*20mm and 2*30mm and 2*13mm does practically nothing to a tank. I straffed some tanks a while back (might have been patch 1 or 2) with the A8 in that config about 5-6 good passes but not a scratch. I re-uped and gave them another good hosing but still nothing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
Whassup with that?
Hoho.. Fw190 didnt get panzer at all, only disabled it once during testings (still able to run though).
But Typhoon and F4u-1c were scoring MULTIPLE tanks with half or less of their ammo.. and most reliable way to attack a tank in two mentioned planes was to attack on panzers front, side or top. (back was most toughest, and had a chance of surviving one pass (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
I wonder how Hispano could be THIS much more powerful, it wasnt any super cannon even though if it was good.
I can imagine allie infantry being armed with Hispano converted anti-tank guns and throwing their lousy bazookas and piats into the ditch (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 07-11-2000).]
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Spatula, minus all the rhetoric, the reason for that configuration being ineffective against tanks is that it should be.
Obviously the 13mm MG's aren't going to do much more than scratch up his pretty camo paint job.
The Mk108 30mm's cannons are using a low velocity high explosive round, designed for use on aircraft. They deliver alot of explosive power, but have almost no armor penetration capability. So while they will make pretty flashes, and nice booms, thats about all they're good for.
So that leaves you with the x2 MG151/20's
Now as too Fishu and Mandobles constant rants about the American .50's and 20mm's, part may be right (hispano vs tanks, but I haven't seen definitive proof either way), and part is "Luftbabble". The 20mm Hispano is and should be appreciably more effective than the Mauser MG151/20 20mm. Simple knowledge of how guns, balistics, ammunition, and how they work makes this obvious.
Now is the Hispano 20mm too effective against tanks? It may be. And my personal feeling on this part of the issue, sides with Fishu and Mandoble. But without any hard real life data compared to testing in AH, I find it hard to say that the game is incorrect without some kind of hard proof, feelings aside.
So basically, a Spitfire would be more effective against a tank, than a 30mm armed Fw190A8 (and again it should be).
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Hispanos arent turbolaser no more...now they are only Lasers.
Mausers arent 20 mm cannons no more...now they are crap
Seems that HTC tuned BOTH down. Why is out of my knowledge, but the results are alarming. I cant kill a con on one pass anymore with a 190, and I still get F***ed by hispanodweebs from 900yds away...
And this is starting to bore me...
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Now as too Fishu and Mandobles constant rants about the American .50's and 20mm's, part may be right (hispano vs tanks, but I haven't seen definitive proof either way), and part is "Luftbabble". The 20mm Hispano is and should be appreciably more effective than the Mauser MG151/20 20mm. Simple knowledge of how guns, balistics, ammunition, and how they work makes this obvious.
Now is the Hispano 20mm too effective against tanks? It may be. And my personal feeling on this part of the issue, sides with Fishu and Mandoble. But without any hard real life data compared to testing in AH, I find it hard to say that the game is incorrect without some kind of hard proof, feelings aside.
So basically, a Spitfire would be more effective against a tank, than a 30mm armed Fw190A8 (and again it should be).
I haven't complained of american .50 or 20mm for long time, actually, hispano is British (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And I also did record films of it, like I said, my proves..
Yes, I said already that Hispano is good, but its NOT super weapon still against tanks.
(why did brits make piat or 2 pounder gun then?)
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Before 1.03, Beemer and I went to the TA and shot at each other in FW's and F4U-1C's. In air to air modes, there was essentially no difference in leathality at all. Whatever the F4U did, the FW could do at the same range with at the very most one or two more hit flashes. I still have those films, Beemer probably does too.
In short, BOTH the F4U and the FW could kill each other at 1k with about 5-8 hit flashes.
These tests were conducted without doing any maneuvering; it was just a leathality test. So the "Luftbabble" at that time (as Vermillion puts it) was just that. The "turbo" guns were on BOTH planes. (It was quite a bit easier to see the target out of the F4U though. Forward visibility for target tracking is much better than that in the FW, IMHO.)
I'll get with Beemer, or any other OPEN MINDED person that wants to run these tests again and we'll toss in some tank runs as well.
I suspect, in the A2A mode, that the guns are still closely matched, despite the sniffles of inferiority.
I have no idea about the anti-armor capability because I only attack tanks if I'm bored and I only drive them if the squad is doing a rare tank run. Some of that might be ammo differences as Verm also points out.
I think this whole controversy stems from the fact that the LW's just can't stand having a cannon-armed B&Z bird in the game if it wasn't designed by Kurt Tank. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I'll get with Beemer, or any other OPEN MINDED person that wants to run these tests again and we'll toss in some tank runs as well.
I suspect, in the A2A mode, that the guns are still closely matched, despite the sniffles of inferiority.
I have no idea about the anti-armor capability because I only attack tanks if I'm bored and I only drive them if the squad is doing a rare tank run. Some of that might be ammo differences as Verm also points out.
I think this whole controversy stems from the fact that the LW's just can't stand having a cannon-armed B&Z bird in the game if it wasn't designed by Kurt Tank. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)[/B][/QUOTE]
I tested it H2H and online, both had same results. (online = MA)
result was that there were Fw190 tickles the tank, F4u or Typhoon just shoots it like it would be a plane.
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Fishu,
What handle are you currently using to conduct these tests in the MA?
A quick check of the stats for Fishu in tour 5 and 6 shows no sorties or ordinance expended at all.
Perhaps you are using a new handle on a trial account or something.
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Toad, Im a 190/109 dedicated pilot for several tours and never have been able to hit anything (except buffs) with Mg151/20 at longer distances than 600 yards. Actually I can score hits at distances of 500 or less with 190A5 (normaly 250-200 yards).
If you are so kind, I would be very interested into those films showing 190A8 killing F4U1Cs at 1000 yards.
Also, I'm interested into repeating those test with you as soon as possible, recording and posting the films.
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Mandoble,
I can E-Mail it to you or soon you should be able to get it off the 13th TAS website. It's FW1k.ahf
I have one film of my FW killing Beem's F4U at 1k. Beemer might have some too; I'll see if he kept them (I droned for him more than he droned for me.) This was version 1.02, when the "Hispano Howling" was at its loudest.
In the first part of this film, I shoot some machine gun at him to see if I can even hit him at long range. <EDIT: I think we both set convergence to 400 for these tests. Might have been 450.> I did but he reported no damage over RW. Then we get stabilized at 1K and I shoot about 5-6 bursts of cannon at him, getting about one flash per burst. The last flash takes a wing. Use zoom, it's all ez to see.
After each burst we compared notes on how many flashes I saw, how many pings he heard and what damage he took. We did this over RW. Next time, I'd use the text/radio to show this info to other viewers of the film.
I'd be very happy to do this with you. RW makes it easy, so I hope you have that. Still, we need to shoot a short burst, send results in text, shoot again, until target is destroyed.
I like to do this type of testing. If there's something wrong, we should point it out. If not, then we should leave HTC in peace. Zigrat was going to do it with me but changed his mind apparently.
I'll look for ya. When do you usually fly?
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 07-11-2000).]
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Spatula, minus all the rhetoric, the reason for that configuration being ineffective against tanks is that it should be.
Obviously the 13mm MG's aren't going to do much more than scratch up his pretty camo paint job.
The Mk108 30mm's cannons are using a low velocity high explosive round, designed for use on aircraft. They deliver alot of explosive power, but have almost no armor penetration capability. So while they will make pretty flashes, and nice booms, thats about all they're good for.
So that leaves you with the x2 MG151/20's
Now as too Fishu and Mandobles constant rants about the American .50's and 20mm's, part may be right (hispano vs tanks, but I haven't seen definitive proof either way), and part is "Luftbabble". The 20mm Hispano is and should be appreciably more effective than the Mauser MG151/20 20mm. Simple knowledge of how guns, balistics, ammunition, and how they work makes this obvious.
Now is the Hispano 20mm too effective against tanks? It may be. And my personal feeling on this part of the issue, sides with Fishu and Mandoble. But without any hard real life data compared to testing in AH, I find it hard to say that the game is incorrect without some kind of hard proof, feelings aside.
So basically, a Spitfire would be more effective against a tank, than a 30mm armed Fw190A8 (and again it should be).
Thanks Verm, that explains things nicely. I didnt know the 30mm was more a HE round than an AP.
Cheers.
Spat.
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Toad and me conduted some A/A, A/G test with hispanos and Mg151/20 yesterday. All the tests were filmed and will be posted in Rude's page.
The tests were as follows:
1 - 190A8 4x20 attacking F4U1C from D1 to D900.
2 - F4U1C attacking F4U1C from D1 to D900.
3 - F4U1C (convergence fixed) attacking F4U1C from D1 to D900.
4 - F4U1C attacking Panzer.
5 - 190A8 attacking Panzer.
6 - 190A5 attacking Panzer.
7 - 190A8 attacking B17 (250-300 yards, shot by shot)
8 - F4U1C attacking B17 (250-300 yards, shot by shot)
The results:
1 - 190A8 was able to score some hits (less than 15 scattered flashes) on F4U from 950 yards. These hits didn't down the F4U, but one aileron and one flap broken.
2 and 3 - F4U was able to score some hits (less than 15 scattered flashes) on F4U from 950 yards.
These hits downed the F4U: Fuel tank and both ailerons.
4 - Three passes needed to kill the tank. Few hits per pass.
5 - A lot of passes, a lot of hits per pass, no way to kill the panzer. After spending much more than the normal loadout of the 190A8, both tracks were disable on the tank.
6 - Same as 5, but no damage at all.
7 - Three hits on 'B' key, three bursts needed to cut the wing of the B17 (about 9 flashes).
8 - Two hits on 'B' key. First burst killing one B17 engine. Second burst cutting B17 wing (about 6 flashes).
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Wow. You guys must be good with the hispanos. The last few times I attacked a tank in a Tiffy I needed to make about 6-9 passes to take out a tank. One attack all I did was take out a track. The other was after numerous passes, and I finally came up its rear agl and fired away until 300-400yds. Both times I made many hits.
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Originally posted by leonid:
Wow. You guys must be good with the hispanos. The last few times I attacked a tank in a Tiffy I needed to make about 6-9 passes to take out a tank. One attack all I did was take out a track. The other was after numerous passes, and I finally came up its rear agl and fired away until 300-400yds. Both times I made many hits.
Try F4u C next time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
The results:
1 - 190A8 was able to score some hits (less than 15 scattered flashes) on F4U from 950 yards. These hits didn't down the F4U, but one aileron and one flap broken.
2 and 3 - F4U was able to score some hits (less than 15 scattered flashes) on F4U from 950 yards.
These hits downed the F4U: Fuel tank and both ailerons.
4 - Three passes needed to kill the tank. Few hits per pass.
5 - A lot of passes, a lot of hits per pass, no way to kill the panzer. After spending much more than the normal loadout of the 190A8, both tracks were disable on the tank.
6 - Same as 5, but no damage at all.
7 - Three hits on 'B' key, three bursts needed to cut the wing of the B17 (about 9 flashes).
8 - Two hits on 'B' key. First burst killing one B17 engine. Second burst cutting B17 wing (about 6 flashes).
<COUGH COUGH> er...
<COUGH COUGH> umm...
<COUGH COUGH> so...
now come and dont tell me that hispanos arent FRIGGIN TURBOLASERS! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
and my mausers suck (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-12-2000).]
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Ram, the Hispanos are not "friggin turbolasers", at least in the Air-to-Air mode. Get over it, live with it.
Obviously, there are two sides to everything. Watch the films for yourself and make up your own mind. Both of us filmed, so you can watch from each end.
I will say that the LW 20 mm's do not appear to be able to kill a tank. The F4U guns will. Now, I have no idea if there is a historical reason for this (different ammo or whatever) but I think that you guys have a valid question here for HTC. There is indeed a large disparity between the Hispanos and the Mausers against the tank.
Now, as to ANY air-to-air use, I saw VERY LITTLE difference between the two guns.
I think the Hispanos have maybe a 60-70 yard advantage in max range. I tried and tried to get hits on Man's F4 at 1k and the rounds fell short. (I DID hit Beemer at 1k in version 1.02. That film should be on Rude's site as well. Will post address when I confirm the flicks are up.) However, at around 940-930, I could again get hits with the FW. The F4 appears to be able to land a hit around 970. So there is a MINOR difference in max effective range.
With respect to lethality, there is again almost no noticeable difference. In my film, I hit Man's F4 with 10 <not 15> 20mm flashes, resulting in a wounded pilot and hit right elevator. Then Man got tired of my trying to hit him at 1k and deliberately augered. I didn't get a chance to finish him at 940 or so. <Man, that's why we needed RW.>
So, this film doesn't show if a shot or two more from the FW would have destroyed the plane. Retest, anyone?
Man shot at my F4 from his F4 and after 12 hits (ping sounds..I haven't seen his flick) he had nailed the right flap. That would indicate that I actually did better in the FW. I had wounded him and nailed his right elevator with 10 rounds. Anyway, he then put about a 4-6 round burst into me that tore off my tail from about 940.
Testing against a B-17 was similar. If you put about 8 rounds into a wing using either plane, it comes off. With either plane "wing kill" doesn't vary by 2 hits. One thing is certain. Hits in 1.03 at or beyond 900 with either plane are purely random. You'll get some, but they are not aimed, they are luck-through-dispersion.
Anyway, watch the films and decide for yourself. Rude hasn't put them up yet, but I'll ring his bell again. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
However, I think you will see what YOU want to see in this.
Objectively, in the A2A mode, the Hispano and Mauser leathality are very close. The Hispano has a historically better ROF, larger projectile, higher velocity and better trajectory. I suggest that is where the slight edge comes from.
So, from my view....in Air to Air there is essentially no difference. In the Anti-tank mode, you guys have a legitimate question for Pyro on why the Hispano is so much better. Maybe he has a reason, maybe he needs to tweak.
Mandoble, it was fun testing...<S>
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 07-12-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 07-12-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 07-12-2000).]
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Ok reality check here:
First of all, YES hispano can kill a tank- the same ammo in both a tiffie and a spit could destroy armored locomotives and tanks. Spits were not usually used for this because they were both more vulnerable when low, and the pilots were annoyed by having to do ground attacks.
Second, the reason it could was because of 2 things. First of all.. 198 grams! it's a whoopee huge payload for an airborne cannon!!!! And secondly it has an immense ballistic energy to pound that explosive through and into the armor.
So both historically and reality wise it's a great tank killer.
Someone asked in another thread why they bothered with Piat's or ground anti tank guns if Hisp. was that good. There were reasons for that too, first of all on the ground you don't have the luxury of attacking the rear or top plate of a tank- you need armor penetration through all areas of the tank. Secondly the hispano cannon is a bulky as christ thing to haul around by hand... and it might take 16 or 17 shells to pound through an armor plate vs a 2 lb gun needing 1 or 2 shots. Thirdly the army didn't get a crack at it. Hispano was designed for airplanes, only the airforce really was shown it and given a chance to evaluate it. And even they were dienchanted with it's jamming and pre detonation characteristics. In fact the earlier versions usually used slugs instead of explosives. It was pretty much just as effective- the exploding shells just made it even more powerfull.
Lastly the mauser. I am sooo sorry guy's. I mean really the person to whine to is NOT HTC. I mean the person you should really be screaming at is the people who back in 1938 created a low velocity 20mm shell that had enough exposive to destroy a plane.
The reality is that the 20mm and 30mm are NOT TANK KILLERS. For gods sake RAM, Fishu and Hristo live with it. They have neither the velocity to hammer through plate or the wieght to warp or pierce armor. I am unsure of where the hell you got the idea they should but it's a damned outright LIE.
YES the 190 was predominantly a JABO plane in 1944, especially on the eastern front. It used rockets and bombs to destroy tanks and it's 20mm and MG to shoot planes and strafe non-armored objects. It just never had a role using it's cannon to kill tanks like Hispano did. Be glad you can de-track and damage tanks at ALL.
As far as I know, the ONLY plane that had any success destroying planes with it's cannon was the Ju-88 with a cannon specifically designed for it.
So for chrissakes you guys.. quit playing that harp about hispano vs mausers. it's pretty old, the two perform extremely similar in a2a now since 1.03 made the hispano's less laser of god-like. And in a2g they both perform EXACTLY as they should.
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Toad, I'm having problems sending the films to Rude, it seems his email is very limited in size and the zipped file is 1.5MB.
Now my personal conclusions:
1 - Actually no german aircraft can be used to stop tank assaults.
2 - Both, 190 and F4U can score long distant hits. But the 190 will spend its entire ammo load for one or two hits while the F4U will spend only a small ammount of bullets. At this point, it is true that the aiming skill could be a factor. I'm anything but a good gunner, and it seems Toad shares the same problem.
3 - About the number of hits scored per plane in the long distance test, I dont know how many bullets are represented per "flash", and I dont know how many "flashes" can be drawn at the same point appearing like a single one. Due that, I assumed that each plane scored less than 15 hits (no flashes).
4 - About lethality for normal A/A combat, IMO, hispanos are far away from Mg151/20. As the videos show, in the case of Mg151/20 vs buff, two sets of tracers (hitting engine and wing) and no damage at all in the buff, a third set and wingtip off. In the case of hispanos, one set of tracers and one engine off, a second one and wingtip off. So, in the case of Hispanos, one tracer set is equivalent to one part lost (engine, wingtip, etc). In the case of Mg151/20, three tracer sets is equivalent to one part lost. The lethality ratio for this 300 yards test is 3/1 in favour of Hispanos. Obviously, once you destroy the wingtip of a B17, the buff is off, and we, deliverately were aiming to the wingtips. But if the case we had to aim to the engines, 190 would need 12 tracer sets while F4U could stop the buff with only 4.
A side note about the tests. In all the cases, the target was colaborating, so, no need of any snapshot capability. I asked Toad to do some snapshot tests in a mock combat, but Toad dissapeared from TA, so, no test were conducted. In my experience in MA, F4U can hit and kill easily with snapshots at 500 yards, while I'm unable to make any succesfully snapshot with 190 at more than 300 yards (250-200).
RAM, Hispanos ARE "friggin turbolasers", you are right. You need to spend twice your ammo load in 190A8 to score enough hits to down a F4U at more than 900 yards. In the other hand, F4U only needs less than half its normal ammo load to accomplish that. But, in fact, this is not related to lethality of the bullets, only to the trayectory and velocity of the shots.
With these conclusions I dont mean the Hispanos or M151/20 are bad modeled.
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Originally posted by Toad:
Ram, the Hispanos are not "friggin turbolasers", at least in the Air-to-Air mode. Get over it, live with it.
oh I know to live with it. But I cant live with people around me telling that Hispanos aren't THAT powerful (way more than they should be).
Why do I say this? 198grams of bullet? so what?...a 198gr HE round CANT KILL A TANK...nor can a burst of HE rounds. So Hispanos have AP projectile isnt it?...ok then an AP projectile DOESNT AS MUCH DAMAGE AS A MAUSER 20MM ROUND! wich BTW was used TO KILL BUFFS!.
I dont mind a toejam about killing tanks (because from the very start I got used to dont be able to kill them). I mind that if hispanos kill tanks so well then they shouldnt kill planes THAT well..and the inverse.
Or are you telling me that an AP projectile burst from 900 yards can rip a B17's wing before a HE mauser burst?
ROFLOL!
Its RIDICULOUS. Or we have AP or we have HE. but there is a HEAP round for Hispanos?.
In WWII there wasnt. but ok lets say that there there is a HEAP round for Hispanos.
HEAP has less power against tanks than an AP. Has less power against A/C than HE...so that round SHOULDT be so powerful.
And dont forget that HE round for hispanos came only in the last days of the war...so PERK THEM! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (J/K)
Friggin turbolasers, gentlemen. And if you sell me the idea that a Hispano has the power to kill a couple of tanks in 2 passes and then go and fry a B17 from 900yds more effectively than a Fw190,then they are way overmodelled, IMO.
And they are.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-13-2000).]
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Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
Someone asked in another thread why they bothered with Piat's or ground anti tank guns if Hisp. was that good. There were reasons for that too, first of all on the ground you don't have the luxury of attacking the rear or top plate of a tank- you need armor penetration through all areas of the tank.
...but the thing here is that Hispano in the game can easily cut through panzers front, so I tell you got the luxury (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
The reality is that the 20mm and 30mm are NOT TANK KILLERS.
Excuse me, but why does Hispano then remind more of AT gun?
for god sake, its 20mm!
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Wouldn't really wonder if Sorrow or someone would suddenly come to say for us that .50 caliber gun is actually better against tanks than 20mm or 37mm...
"it has the velocity and rate of fire"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Man, I had a computer lockup at the end there. The whole thing froze; it's been doing that. When I got rebooted, you were gone. Snapshot tests really wouldn't prove much because it would be so hard to get exactly the same snapshot for each type of gun. It would be hard to compare "apples to apples".
As far as long distance hits, I disagree. At 920 or less, either the FW or the F4U will get a flash or two for each burst. This is due to dispersion not aim, mainly. The real difference is that the F4U carries a much larger ammo load than the FW, so you have more bursts to use.It's not any harder to hit at 900 in either one; both are random due to dispersion and you will get one or two flashes in either plane per burst.
It is my understanding from what HT has written that "one flash is one hit". Now that someone finally aggravated HT enough with the old "one ping kill" whine, we also have "one hit sound per hit"; the sounds don't stop when you die, either. So, I counted hit flashes in extreme slow motion on my film when I was shooting at you. When you were shooting at me during the test, I put on my headset and counted hit sounds.
As far as the buff wing, see above. It's not "sets of tracers" it's hit flashes. In both cases, with either plane attacking, 8-10 flashes took off a B-17 wing. Like it or not, the leathality is nearly identical.
On your last comment on ammo load, once again remember that the F4U carries WAY more ammo than a FW. I think it might take nearly a whole FW ammo load to kill at 900. It would take AT LEAST 1/2 the ammo load of a F4U...but then the ammo load is about twice as big! You have to compare this on rounds fired, not % of ammo load fired. If you do that, it will be nearly identical.
You guys can use any excuse you like and believe it as long as you want to; go ahead and delude yourselves, but it ain't the guns. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Any kind of objective testing shows that in A2A modes, the Hispanos are not any more a "friggin turbolaser" than the M151/20.
I'll be happy to repeat any of these tests you like. Next time however, we must be patient and take short shots. After every shot we must type into the buffer how many flashes the shooter saw, how many hits the target heard and if any damage resulted. When you play back tapes as a target, there are no hit sounds or flashes. So, we need the results in the text buffer.
If you can figure out a way to get the same snapshot for both planes each time, we can try that as well. RW really helps because you don't have to type while lining up the shot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Against tanks the Mg151 should be almost useless. They fire a lighter round at a lower velocity, and the Hispano delivers 1.74 times as much kinetic energy per shell. It should also be harder to get a hit on manoeuvering targets due to the lower MV.
MG 151/20 (115 g) 740 rpm 710 m/s
MG 151/20 ( 92 g) 740 rpm 800 m/s
MK 108 (312 g) 600 rpm 505 m/s
Hispano Mk.II(130 g) 600 rpm 880 m/s
How anybody can expect to get kills on tanks with a 108 is beyond me.
Against aircraft, I don't think the explosive content of the ammo is fully taken into account. The Mg151 should be putting out slightly greater chemical energy than the Hispano thanks to it's higher percentage of explosive filling. It seems to me HTC don't model explosive energy well enough, bombs and rockets don't do the damage they should either.
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Man,
As for the films, Rude got mine no sweat. He's on a DSL line and there is no size limit. However, Rude suckered Thunder into taking care of our website, so you might as well try sending it to Thunder; that's where mine went. Just tell him to put it up on the 13th TAS website in the Vault.
Thunder = sjthornton@home.com
Rather than wasting more time testing, I'll propose a challenge:
Why don't you "Hispano Howlers" try to find something that the Hispano will do that the Mauser won't do that can be checked and repeated in a standardized way.
The only conditions:
Air-to-Air Mode (I agree it won't kill tanks...take that up with Pyro, not me.)
Max range a nice round 900 yards.
Hit flashes are the only thing that counts as a hit and they can be seen on the shooter's film.
Mauser gets 10% more hit flashes to duplicate the feat. Dinger's tests and Vermillion's leathality data show that the Mauser is and should be about 10% less leathal than the Hispano. (Certainly not a "friggin turbolaser" difference.)
So, if you can find something in the Air-to-air mode, inside of 900 yards that the Hispano can kill that the Mauser CAN'T kill using Hispano flashes + 10%....
Then I'll be happy to discuss this some more. Otherwise, you guys just go ahead and cry in your beer.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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And now that we know a FW has a tough time killing a tank, it's time to look at K/D again in light of this information.
Tour 5 Kills Deaths K/D
F4U-1C 10537 6142 1.71
FW-190A8 4702 3751 1.25
FW-190A5 9049 6342 1.42
But what if we look at the Air to Air Mode? So, let's subtract the Panzer IV, M3, M16. After all, we agree the FW's CAN'T a tank..let's just see how these planes stack up Air to Air.
F4U against:
Panzer IV 1135 660
M16 1048 426
M3 58 21
Totals 2241 1107
Fw901A8
Panzer IV 308 329
M16 510 219
M3 12 8
Totals 830 556
FW190-A5
Panzer IV 60 303
M16 396 283
M3 73 37
Totals 529 623
So, subtracting these kills and deaths, the new A2A K/D's are:
F4U 8121 5027 1.61
FW190-A8 3872 3195 1.21
FW190-A5 8520 5719 1.48
Oh, my! looks like the F4U and the FW190-A5 are pretty dang close now, doesn't it?
BAN THEM BOTH!!!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Toad:
F4U 8121 5027 1.61
FW190-A8 3872 3195 1.21
FW190-A5 8520 5719 1.48
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Lets talk a bit about "Turbolaser" concept:
Turbo: High ROF
Laser: High speed, very tense trajectory.
I can talk only about my personal experience. My kills in 190A5 (snapshots included) are done from 150 to 300 yards, the most common range is between 200 and 250 yards. Most of the F4U1C kills I've seen have been done between 500 and 900 yards.
About the K/D results, all we know very well that most of the 190A5 pilots are just newbies, while most of the F4U1C pilots are the finest expertens in the game. So, having a bunch of newbies with a so close K/D score to the HogC means only one thing: 190A5 and its guns should be considered too uber and a perk plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Toad:
Rather than wasting more time testing, I'll propose a challenge:
Why don't you "Hispano Howlers" try to find something that the Hispano will do that the Mauser won't do that can be checked and repeated in a standardized way.
Hush, I am talking here about Hispano vs. MG151/20 against tanks, not against planes.
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Originally posted by Toad:
After all, we agree the FW's CAN'T a tank..
But I really cant agree that Hispano is high rate of fire 50mm with laser velocity and FW some useless toy against tanks.
Yay.. I love those Hispanos wrecking tanks on one pass even from ahead without hitting top and FW just tickling those from behind from high or low angle, whatever you want.
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OK, let's talk turbolasers.
MG 151/20 (115 g) 740 rpm 710 m/s
MG 151/20 ( 92 g) 740 rpm 800 m/s
MK 108 (312 g) 600 rpm 505 m/s
Hispano Mk.II(130 g) 600 rpm 880 m/s
Turbo: High ROF The MG 151 would win except for the interrupter that keeps it from shooting it's prop off, right? So we agree that the Hispano has a higher effective ROF?
Laser: High Speed, Good Trajectory The Hispano is higher speed and better trajectory so it wins here too?
Then it is a TurboLaser?
Well, if so, it's not HTC's fault. You guys are defining "turbolaser" as anything that has historical, documented higher performance than the MG 151.
So anything that was historically better than the LW equipment is just not fair, right?
You Loose Waffles are soooooo funny.
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Whoa there!!!....When did facts and data become important??......(walks off wondering what this world is coming to, when arguments need facts to support them)
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I have flown both types.
I do NOT believe any longer that the A2A hitting power of hispanos is exagerated. I think they are still slightly stronger than hispanos and they should be!
I can kill airplanes easy with mausers. The problem IMHO is dispersion, it seems the hispanos have less "randomness" in that they fly in a tighter cone with the mausers "scatering" more. This effect is not apparent <400 yards, but it makes long range sniping (>d600) much harder in the 190 then f4u, but i dont have a real problem with this.
Right now, my #1 problem is tanks. Hispanos kill tanks too easy IMHO. You dont need to use rear attacks or anything, just point and click.
Please note I am NOT saying that mausers should be more effective versus tanks: im NOT. Just saying hispanos armor penetration capability should be adjusted lower (again IMHO) so that only rear and top attacks are effective. Right now hispanos are effective versus tanks from any angle.
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Definition of Turbolaser:
Standard laser in Imperial Star Destroyers and ships like them (Calamari Cruisers, Executor Super Star Destroyer, Death Star...)
Now seriously.
In AH F4UC has turbolasers That data you put there was really impressive, yes yes...but still 160Grams of WHAT? if it is of AP round then I still say that the lighter 20mm round in Mauser MUST do higher damage than Hispanos.
If it is a HE round then The A2A damage is correct, but the antiTank power isnt.
And dont screw with numbers, man. A 20mm mauser round doesnt need to go too fast to do fatal damage. They EXPLODE...(BUM! PUM! PLAAF! you get the idea? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)). Hispanos AP rounds PENETRATE and the explosion is minimal compared with HE.
If its AP then the A2A damage is way over what it should be. If it is HE then those rounds should bounce on tanks just as Mk108's.
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I say that HTC should set the Hispano's data to match the data for the Browning .303 so we don't have to listen to the LWs whine about it forever. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Not that that would stop them from whining, they'd just have to switch subjects. Something like this perhaps? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif):
"I was shot down by a Barbiefire last night. Those dweebs who fly those overmodeled things are jerks. The Spit9 couldn't possibly shoot down anything designed by Kurt Tank or Wiley Messerschmitt. HTC needs to fix those things." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Or:
"That Runstang that got me was going too fast. Everybody knows that the Americans can design refrigerators but not aircraft." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Maybe:
"That Cannonhawg is too Ubėr. Whay do all of the online sims overmodel the allied stuff? Probably because they're biased against the German fighters. I mean, these allied fighters are fly-by-wire rockets compared to our fighters. I can't even get my 109G-10 to go 460 in level flight." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Sisu
-Karnak
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Couple questions.
1. When fired does the round know what kind of target it hits? or 2) is the round just modelled as a round, with all values the same no matter what the target.
If its #2 then by default the hispano is MUCH more powerful then anything else. So the argument for turbolasers against tanks is correct, its an immensely powerful weapon. I hate to admit it but RAM is probably right, if its HE modelled then it shouldnt pop tanks they way it does. If its AP then it would BLOW through all parts of the plane leaving neat holes.
If its #1 then its just plain wrong.
I just have doubts about its anti tank ability. also has this been tested with the spits and the n1ks to see how they do against tanks. By the tests so far the spits mounting just 2 of these beasts should be half as effective on tanks.
do they model alternating HE, AP rounds?
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Dnil
JG-2
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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Originally posted by Dnil:
I hate to admit it but RAM is probably right
Huh?
Thanks Dnil. When I really feel sad I say it and that phrase has set me sad. To hear that from an ex squaddie is really hurting.
So thank you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Fishu:
The 20mm and 30mm I referred to was the german ammo not the hispano.
The 20mm hispano acts like an anti tank gun because it's really kind of built like one. While _1_ 20mm 198 gram shell at 800 someodd fps wouldn't even tickle a tank when 5 or 6 arrive almost at the same time in the same place entire portions of plate get bent, cracked and blown off like canvas. THAT is why hispano works.
Now .50 cal has the velocity but lacks the weight and explosive needed to replicate this. Thus .50's are just as harmless to tanks as mausers unless you get somewhere thin and at close to zero deflection.
So in effect, your points are just pointless fishu- you cannot make german 20 and 30mm ammo do something they never did. And you can't say hispano didn't do it either- historically we KNOW it was incredibly effective. And in comparison we know ShVAK was almost useless against tanks too, yet 23mm, which has almost the EXACT SAME performance of hispano worked incredibly well in the Il-2 and Yak-9T.
Ram- as for a2a I just don't get what your trying to prove- that a 198 gram shell travelling almost 1/3 faster doesn't have a flatter trajectory and deliver more boom per hit? Look at guncams of Hurricanes shooting down german bombers- the german planes just disappear when the shell stream touches them.
I am sure those crews felt hispano was WAAAY overmodelled (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Oh joy.. I was having little fun, scored 4 panzers in a flight and 2 m16s in F4u-1c.
But I haven't yet complained at all about Hispanos air to air stopping power, but you guys whine it over and over - IMO. Hispano A2A is fairly good now, it is not too powerful when I hit poor 109's left wing with 4 or 5 hispano rounds and it didnt go apart (I only got piece of it too when someone ripped that wing off with one more round)
I am fairly happy with all guns air to air lethalities now, but not at all with tank lethalities.
LOL, I used 60 rounds into the front plate of panzer with F4u-1c and it blew up! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
And in comparison we know ShVAK was almost useless against tanks too, yet 23mm, which has almost the EXACT SAME performance of hispano worked incredibly well in the Il-2 and Yak-9T.
and thats the 23mm I am talking of, and it is far better than Hispano if we talk about its punch.
Though, I wonder, why did they give Pz-IVH against these 44 monsters, when Panther or Tiger would been more likely?
Tiger and Panther was manufactured in '43 *already*
Only 1944 birds for germans are 190A-8, which is very much useless if you want to stop a fighter attack and Bf109G10, which is over usage of old model.
Though, I am amazed they gave us Ostwind which werent too widely manufactured.
I also heard we're going to get Ju-88 A-4, that puts me wonder again that why not more later Ju-88, that falls again behind 1944 stantards (more food for the allies)
Now.. lets see what cool 1944 stuff allies has...
P51D, P47D (in two pieces!), F4u (ALSO two) and P38L. (not to forget top of line bomber, B-17G) (okey, all might not been 44 but late 43)
and even japs got their N1K2 which is also beyond 1944 and too good at it.
All right.. again little aggression let out.
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Why then Fishu do the LWs attack the RAFs so aggressively when we try to get the Spitfire XIV and Fw190D-9 in AH?
Why, because the LWs only want German stuff. They don't seem to think that any other nation's fighters should be modeled. They maintain that the Fw190D-9 would clean up against Spitfire XIVs, but the demand that the Spitfire be perked if it is added while the Fw190D-9 should be free choice (except RAM, who is quite consistant in his belief that the XIV would be dominant).
Fishu,
you complain that the Germans only have 2 1944 aircraft. Well, they also have 3 1943 aircraft. The RAF doesn't have any '43 or '44 aircraft. The Spit IX, while very good for a '42 aircraft, has a hell of a time surviving in MA with anybody other than an expert at the controls. The Spit IX in the hands of somebody, like me, who isn't very good at maintaining energy has to win or it dies.
Anyway, to get this back on the subject, what the Luftwaffe needs here is a Henschel Hs129B-3/Wa which was armed with a PaK 40 anti-tank gun. The PaK 40 was a 75mm cannon that fired a 7-lb, tungsten-carbide cored projectile at 933 meters per second. At 1000 meters it could penetrate 133mm of armor if it hit square on. Unfortunately the Hs129 only cared 26 rounds of ammo with a rate of fire of 40 per minute.
So, give the Luftwaffe the Hs129B-3/Wa and the VVS the Il-2 or Il-10 and we've got ourselves more than enough firepower when you add in the Typhoon and F4U-1C to make that poor Panzer IV's life absolute hell.
Sisu
-Karnak
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All right now for the tankers perspective.
While I may not have the time in Tanks that Caveman, 3 fingers, or Cit do. I have spent a lot of time in them.
Spits, F4U-C's, & typhoons will all kill tanks. Agreed, they should, historicaly the 20mm Hispano's did it, they should do it here. Wonderful
20mm Mausers didn't do it, they don't do it here. COOL!
.50's rattle like tin from p47's all day with no damage. Right on!
Are Hispano's then turbo lazers? Not in my opinon. Do Mausers cannon work? Well I don't know about yours, but the way my scores gone up this TOD flyig the 190A5 I'd darn well say so.
If there is ANYHING that needs to be fixed (and IMHO I'm not sure there is) it's the frontal armor penitration on tanks. But, how can you prove with a front aspect shot that your really hitting the front armor, instead of the turret gear, drivers slit, or some other vulnerable part?
To my mind 1.03 has come the closest to tanks historic lethality from plane attacks that I've seen yet. Bomb blast radius seems a bit small yet as far as tanks damage is concerned. (I've been stuck in craters from all the bombs dropped on me but no damage) But it may well be a balance issue and it's one I have no problem with.
Perhaps what we really need instead of endlessly debateing details on cannon is dedicated anti tank plane. JU-87G with twin 37mm, or P39D with it's 37mm. B25H with 75mm Howitzer in nose certainly should take a tank down! Something that when a tank see's it knows that it's in trouble. (Ok we already have that in the F4U-c but humor me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
Not that I'm promoting another US plane (Cause I'm not) I'd much rather see IJN & russian planesets brought up to par.
But thats pyro's problem not mine.
Long & short of it is tanks are surviveable.
They can be killed with a determined attack.
To me that 40mm AA Gun that nails me from d2? with 2 hits is a far bigger problem. Where did it come from? What fields have it? Is it on the maps? How do I kill that thing? Ussually I'm dead before I release there is a problem.
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Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels
(http://www.corpcomm.net/~billj69/ricochet.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Ghosth (edited 07-13-2000).]
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Seems I read somewhere that Pyro said the Hispano has mixed HE/AP ammo in the loadouts.
Not sure though.
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Originally posted by Karnak:
They don't seem to think that any other nation's fighters should be modeled
Gimme Brewster Buffalo anyday (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Ghosth:
Spits, F4U-C's, & typhoons will all kill tanks. Agreed, they should, historicaly the 20mm Hispano's did it, they should do it here. Wonderful
Excuse me but I dont think those did kill tanks on a one pass, not on Panzer IVh's front plate.
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Yes Fishu, one pass. But not through the front. It wasn't like an arcade game where the armor's health bar was reduced each time it got hit until it was destroyed. Preety much the shell would either get through, or it wouldn't. It might be on the first pass, it might never happen.
If you'd read his whole post you'd have noticed that that is what he identified as the potential problem.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Ahhh...so Fishu does admit that they DID kill tanks...Just not on 1 frontal pass...ok..then the Hispano's are fine..thank you all for coming.
Nothing more to see here, please move on to the next thread please..................uhm, sir, please...shows over, please move along now.
Cobra
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Yes Fishu, one pass. But not through the front. It wasn't like an arcade game where the armor's health bar was reduced each time it got hit until it was destroyed. Preety much the shell would either get through, or it wouldn't. It might be on the first pass, it might never happen.
If you'd read his whole post you'd have noticed that that is what he identified as the potential problem.
Not on one pass into its front.
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Fishu,
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I did not say that they can kill tanks on one pass through the front. Frankly, I don't think they could kill tanks through the front.
It would do you good to read the post you are replying to before you respond to it. We are not all just out to contradict you.
If your misunderstanding was a result of English being a second language rather than haste, I apologize for any slight I may have caused. Your english is certainly better than my finnish. You can read and write english after all.
Sisu
-Karnak
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F4u-1c, alone with its four 20mm, can kill 6 tanks in a sortie without reloading.
Probably could kill even more with more accurate fire.
Now, how realistic is this?
Oh yeah, through side, 3-5 hits - KABOOM.
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Ahhh.. stupid IE isn't showing me any new replies since cobras post, so I got to improvise with netscape.
Karnak, I just wanted to say it clearly there so there are no misunderstandings..
Though, I still think that 3-5 hits to kill tank from its side is nonsense. (and one 3-5 hit from top of the tank on same flight)
I found out another issue also, it seems like tanks blows up easier with F4u-1c when you fire from 800-500 yards than if you do that from 300-200 yards.
Only times when tank has survived my F4u-1c attack, has been when I have took real good aim on a tank from 300-200 yards and shot good series of hits - but when I've begun shooting after 800 yards, tank has usually blown up with 800 to 500 yards shots.
I did close shots on 4 tanks, all but one survived from first pass, two made it through two passes and one did till 4th pass, when I shot him from 600 yards and he blew up.
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Anything less than a 30-37 mm AP round should not be able to penetrate and kill Pzkw IV tanks.
AT rifles in WWII were not effective against medium and heavy tanks. One example, seems to be pretty much same as Hispano - Finnish 20mm AT rifle:
- weight of AP round 152 g
- muzzle velocity 800 m/s
- max range 6,5 km (probably could not kill a bird from that distance...)
- armour penetration at 60 degree ("almost" vertical) angle:
distance penetration
300 m 20 mm
500 m 16 mm
1000 m 9 mm
(test results are from 1943 test firings)
So, if you fire Hispano cannons from a plane, hit angle for the most vulnerable parts (turret top, engine cover) is usually well below 60 degrees - even AP rounds should not penetrate.
Damage to tracks, track wheels and optics could be marginally possible. Of course if commander is at the cupola, he's certainly in danger.
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Spora- Aircraft destroyed tanks in a different manner than land guns. Handheld and tank based anti tank weapons fired 1 round and if it penetrated it destroyed the tank. Aircraft fired hundreds per second so that 4, 5 or 10 high velocity explosive rounds hit the same area at roughly the same time. This meant that smaller high velocity projectiles were just as effective as higher caliber ones. A plate that is 122mm thick is just as vulnerable to getting split or torn off it's weld by 10 high velocy 20mm hitting at once as 1 75mm hitting it. Of course.. on land you can't go round and attack again at 200 mph (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Better to go for 1 hit than try to get 10 or 20!
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Look at the muzzle velocity of that anti-tank rifle. It's 80 m/s lower than the Hispano. The Hispano is also fired from a moving plane, which will increase it's MV to about 1000m/s, considerably more than the anti-tank rifle.
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I still don't see reason why Hispano can kill a tank with 5 shots into front plate from 500-800 yards.
(where did I get out 5 shots from 500-800 yards? from my F4u-1c and 6 panzer kill sortie)
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Some of the films are up.
FW1K is a film of a test I did with Beemer during 1.20. Back then the "Hispano Howlers" were claiming a FW could not kill a plane at 1k.
Cannon2 is the last part of the tests Mandoble and I did. If I recall, this is against a B17.
Cannon1, when it gets put up, is the long range F4U/FW tests. Don't know why it's not up there...I sent it the same time.
None of Mandoble's films are up. I don't know if he sent them.
Go to www.geocities.com/tas13th (http://www.geocities.com/tas13th)
Fishu, if you have film of killing a tank with just 5 nhit flashes, I'd sure like to see it. Can you put it up on a board somewhere?
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 07-15-2000).]
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Originally posted by Toad:
Fishu, if you have film of killing a tank with just 5 nhit flashes, I'd sure like to see it. Can you put it up on a board somewhere?
Sorry, I don't ever remember to record fights even if I decide to...
But of course theres one pissed off tank driver that called me a cheater...
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Somehow I figured that would be your answer.
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Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
Ok reality check here:
First of all, YES hispano can kill a tank- the same ammo in both a tiffie and a spit could destroy armored locomotives and tanks. Spits were not usually used for this because they were both more vulnerable when low, and the pilots were annoyed by having to do ground attacks.
HMMM, i've just finished reading an autobiography of a Canadian Spit pilot in ww2. It gives the impression that 75% of his missions once the invasion of Italy had commenced to the end of the war, were Ground attack missions. All in Spit9's. The missions were actually very good for morale because the pilots got to fire their guns!! often returning empty.
About the FW cannon... Perhaps HTC could model the MK103 long barrelled 30mm, which was much better for the anti tank role, due to a much higher muzzle velocity.
SKurj/BlackFly
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In that same autobiography (canuck spit pilot ww2) He also mentions ground attack missions where his flight finds itself strafing tanks:
quote:
We We frequently attacked German Tiger and Panther tanks, but their 6" armor plating was qite impervious to our cannon shells unless we managed to score a lucky hit in the rear exhaust close to the fuel storage tanks. They were a piece of cake for the rocket firing Typhoons though. On one occasion while I made several attacks on 2 tanks in the Falaise area, I noticed a squadron of Typhoons circling above me waiting, it seemed while I had my fun, after which they would show me how it is done. I made way and 4 "Tiffies" pelled off and dove on the targets. 8 rockets were loosed. When I dived down to have a look after their attack, there were only two blackened spots and some twisted debris - but no tanks. They had been blown to smithereens!
Blue Skies, Bill Olmsted isbn 0-7737-5213-7
Ok, those were Panthers or Tigers, the author doesn't specify in this particular engagement.
Just my input to the pile
Hope i find a job soon..
SKurj/Blackfly
SKurj
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Toad, it seems sjthornton@home.com works fine, Thunder should have my films ready for posting.
I've checked your site and found only two films from a test with someone called "Mondoble", dont know who can he be ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by MANDOBLE (edited 07-16-2000).]
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Hispano rounds SHOULD be significantly more powerful than the wimpy MG 151/20 round. Bigger shell, higher muzzle velocity, and better ballistic performance.
But I don't think ANY of the 20 mm guns should have an easy time with tank armor. If the 20 mm guns were sufficient to kill tanks, then why did both sides spend a LOT of time and money developing anti-tank rockets for the Fw 190 and the Typhoon? If the guns could do the job then why would anyone carry these heavy, high-drag items into battle?
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Skurj:
Yes spits often strafed things on the way home- but these were not ground attack jobs. They were flying air patrol and would love to strafe a target if it was an easy mark and they got to fire their guns (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The more you read of spit pilots the more you realize they HATED jabo or ground attack missions. They were the same as german aces who felt it was beneath them to waste time looking for ground targets to shoot at. Plus older spit drivers learned the hard way that ground fire can put a spit down very easily- glycol hits were easy to do on a diving spit.
As for his memoirs 2 things to think of, first of all a panther or tiger is a totally different mark than a mkIV armor wise- they would take a hell of a beating to kill. Second- in the plane the spit driver might have no idea of the damage he did. Rarely would hispano blow the tank up- rather it would crack and split plates, harm crew and damage the tank beyond opertional use. More likely than not after he was done strafing those tanks the tiffies just added fireworks to an allready dead tank.
Funked: The germans did it because they had no cannons capable of damaging a tank on a 190 and Ju series planes were becoming ducks to fighters. Allies did it either because a rocket is more effective (true in AH as well) and because it allowed more damage to be done to tanks 20mm could only damage or not even tickle.
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Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
Allies did it either because a rocket is more effective (true in AH as well) and because it allowed more damage to be done to tanks 20mm could only damage or not even tickle.
At least in AH nobody bothers to grab rocket when you can alot more safely strafe tank from every angle with F4u-1c...
Rocket is alot more inaccurate and does not even necessarily do anything if hits, when those 50mm hispanos does the job anyway quicker, safer, longer range, more reliable and less dragging.
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Sorrow, Fishu, that's the point I'm trying to make. The rockets were developed because the 20 mm cannon didn't cut it. Even the MK 103 on the Hs 129 didn't work that great. The fact that the cannons are more effective than the rockets in this game indicates something is not quite right.
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BTW Sorrow, 308 Sqn flew Spit LF IX and XVI as ground attack aircraft almost exclusively from then end of 1943 until the end of the war. They used the 3-bomb loadout quite often. They flew air patrols for sure, but mostly they did low level search and destroy with bombs and guns.
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Fishu,
What handle are you currently using to conduct these tests in the MA?
A quick check of the stats for Fishu in tour 5 and 6 shows no sorties or ordinance expended at all.
Perhaps you are using a new handle on a trial account or something.
LOL Cobra (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) cracks are forming in the foundation.
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Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
Skurj:
Yes spits often strafed things on the way home- but these were not ground attack jobs. They were flying air patrol and would love to strafe a target if it was an easy mark and they got to fire their guns (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The more you read of spit pilots the more you realize they HATED jabo or ground attack missions.
EEEEEEERRRRRRR excuse me?
Sorrow, are u telling me that this autobiography is telling me lies?
126 wing:
360 enemy ac destroyed
15 probables
153 damaged
4468 enemy vehicles destroyed or damaged
496 locomotives destroyed or disabled
1569 rail cars useless
426 cuts in rail lines
Granted some exaggeration could have occured. The author (pilot) who wrote this basically states that most missions they were assigned ground attacks. Largely due to the fact that there was soo little enemy air activity, they weren't required for the A - A role. Of course this only in the latter half of the war once his squad left Malta.
SKurj
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Spora- Aircraft destroyed tanks in a different manner than land guns. Handheld and tank based anti tank weapons fired 1 round and if it penetrated it destroyed the tank. Aircraft fired hundreds per second so that 4, 5 or 10 high velocity explosive rounds hit the same area at roughly the same time. This meant that smaller high velocity projectiles were just as effective as higher caliber ones. A plate that is 122mm thick is just as vulnerable to getting split or torn off it's weld by 10 high velocy 20mm hitting at once as 1 75mm hitting it. Of course.. on land you can't go round and attack again at 200 mph Better to go for 1 hit than try to get 10 or 20!
I understand the effect of hitting the same area repeatedly. That's how you can penetrate a concrete wall with a 7,62 mm - after a few hundred rounds around the same area.
Fast moving planes and the (possible) relative motion of a tank pretty much make the above scenario impossible. Also the impact angle is quite low.
BTW, I just looked up one of my sources. It claims Pzkw IV ausfuerung J had 30 mm side armour and 20 mm top.
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Originally posted by Nashwan:
Look at the muzzle velocity of that anti-tank rifle. It's 80 m/s lower than the Hispano. The Hispano is also fired from a moving plane, which will increase it's MV to about 1000m/s, considerably more than the anti-tank rifle.
IHMO that 80 m/s is not significant. A very good rule of thumb for WWII era weapons is that if the muzzle velocity is anywhere over 700 m/s and the projectile is "armour piercing", then the penetration at 60 degree angle from 300-500 metres is about the same as the calibre.
20 mm shell penetrates 20mm, 45mm 45mm etc.
There are significant exceptions, too. Some high calibre weapons had inferior ammo. Some weapons had longer barrel and better ammo. But generally the above rule applies.
It also applies to HEAT ammo, with the exception that HEAT does not lose armour penetration capability with distance.