Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: jihad on April 17, 2001, 05:30:00 PM
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The title says it all.
HT please add code that penalizes the "yank stick into beer gut circle jerk" flyers".
I really liked the 1.03 FM because it hindered this kind of flying.
The FM now is closer to real life performance but allows the TnB planes to do endless circles without the physical penalty that occurs in real combat.
IMO this would enhance gameplay a great deal. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ya, we can't have those P-51, Bf109G-10 and Fw190D-9 pilots only getting a k/d ratio of 1.5/1. Its gotta be more like 10/1 or it isn't fair. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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The game is already pretty strongly biased toward b&z, and we already have artificially low blackout thresholds. What more do ya want? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Pilot fatigue?
How are you going to set the limits?
Ever watch a long (15 min) aerobatic performance? Did they have to lift the pilot out of the cockpit when it was over?
Most turnfights don't last 3-4 minutes.
Just another can of worms.
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Hehe thats funny, comparing your average aerobatic airshow pilot to your average WWII combat pilot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Pilot fatigue works on both though...probably more so the BnZ' people due to higher stick forces at high speed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Of course thats assuming more is taken into account then G forces
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Errr....negative on the fatigue.
DAM!! Was this a troll..............
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Point is Jig that an airshow pilot probably pulls as just many G's doing just about every type of maneuver for a longer period than your average dogfight. Stick forces aren't like consecutively bench pressing 400 pounds either.
Yet they don't seem to "fade away" at the end of the exhibition.
Further, when you go out to do ACM in jets, you fight until you run out of gas. This is normally several engagements. I doubt you'll find many guys that say they just were "too tired on that last fite". Adrenal glands help out some as well. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Being tired after the flight and after the fight would be pretty normal.
Being too tired to finish the last 30 seconds of a 3-4 minute engagement? Nah, I don't think so.
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Hmmmm... I should have phrased it differently I guess.
What I meant was a progressive blackout/redout model similar to EAW.
If you pull heavy G forces for extended periods of time the recovery time increases.
It would also help minimize some of the negative G manuevers that real pilots avoid. <guilty of this myself> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Gee, another whine about other planes, players and their abilities.
Lets see, we have the ever present Chog and niki whine.
The I can't de-ack a field and capture it all by myself whine.
The I can't kill a certain ack with guns whine.
The I can't kill a panzer / osty in one pass with machine guns whine.
The fleet ack hurts my widdle plane whine.
The human ack gunners hurt my widdle plane whine.
The buffs guns are too uber whine. (guilty as charged)
The buffs can out turn a fighter at 30k whine. (guilty as charged)
The buffs can hit a gants butt from 30K whine. (guilty as charged)
The ever present Allies vs LW conspiracy whine.
Have I left any out???
Lets face it a large percentage of posters on the BBS are whino's. Who's going to open / buy the next round??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Mav
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 04-18-2001).]
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Funked said:
The game is already pretty strongly biased toward b&z, and we already have artificially low blackout thresholds. What more do ya want?
Well, well funked (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Seeing as how you are intimately involved with another sim which is approaching open beta, and which boasts pilot fatigue as an innovative feature, I wonder if you have pointed out the futility of such a feature to your compadres at Sickware?
Let's just close with this comment from a current USAF pilot
The G force and fatigue modelling in this game add a great amount of immersion to the game, and it's one more very realistic factor in the gameplay. I'm really happy sick has put this level of human factors modelling into the game.
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Jekyll
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
Aces High Training Corps
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 04-18-2001).]
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I'm with Jihad.
If you guys don't think that pilot fatigue isn't a factor in air to air combat, your fooling yourself.
If you've never pulled 4-5 G's you have no clue what your talking about, let alone the 9 G turns alot of the pilots in this game pull regularly. And no I'm not talking about rollercoasters where they claim you pull XXX G's on the ride. I'm talking sustained, not instantaneous.
This is something I've advocated for a long time on this BBS. In fact, long before Sickware announced they were gonna do it. Hmmmm... maybe I should ask for royalties or something (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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I would vote to see how it pans out in Sick's sim first...I'm skeptical...lets say I just used up my "pilot fatigue" on killing a pair of wingmen that were destined to kill me, after a 5 min. battle, they are down, I'm feeling good, and low and behold a high alt A/C with no pilot fatigue jumps me...I'm already at a disadvantage.
I can see pilots abusing this by hovering over fights, waiting about 5 min till every enemy con has push his 'fatigue' to the limit, then simply jump in and clean up.
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Just making some notes here.
I fly soaring planes myself and indeed making G turns wears you down. But i am also quite sure that during combat ( not me in my plastic soaring plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) adrenaline keeps you going. I mean you will have to keep going or risk ending up in "walhalla".
The EAW system of black en red- outs seems real to me. But the system in AH today is also fine. I dont have real problems with this, though i think the EAW thing is a bit better.
Wir treffen uns wieder am himmel,
FB.(JG5)
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Jekyll I guess part of my argument was implied, and that part is: WWII fighters can't sustain enough g to make pilot fatigue a huge factor, even if it's perfectly modelled.
The most we can get is about 3g sustained, and any decent fighter pilot can handle that no sweat.
If AH had a high-fidelity model it would actually expand the envelope for most of the planes, because the current blackout limits are very conservative.
And since Jihad's expressed desire was to decrease the abilities of pilots who fly aircraft which turn better than the sloth-like flying turds of his squadron, I thought he should know that it wouldn't help him much. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But sure, in the long run, it's something HTC should look into.
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i get enough fatigue from staring at the screen for hours on end thank you very much.
this really is nit picking of the 1st order.
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Luftwaffles should suffer less of fatigue 'cause they had Schokakola (dark chocolate with coffeine) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
tofri
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Originally posted by tofri:
Luftwaffles should suffer less of fatigue 'cause they had Schokakola (dark chocolate with coffeine) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
tofri
Yeah, but Allies should have less since we had "real" coffee, none of that 'burnt wood chips" stuff.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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b&z a/c hindered just as much by low g tollerance as t&b.
after all the b&z doing 400mph cant move the nose very much w/o blacking out while the low speed t&b can stallfight w/o g forces being controlling
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"The game is already pretty strongly biased toward b&z"
The game is biased toward gang bangers. And this would make it even easier for them.
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I am requesting a "Pilot Relief Tube" at my desk in my office, doesn't mean I'll get it anytime soon. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Always interesting to watch the division between 'gamer' and 'simmer' in one of these threads (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Jekyll
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
Aces High Training Corps
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Almost as interesting as reading pontifications from people who have "read about it in books." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Jek, that's an interesting thought.
I used to salivate over 'realism' in a sim. Over the years I discovered that too much realism in boxed sims just limited me in having less fun, since my 2D flat monitor just didn't give us the advantage that the real life environments can enjoy. I found myself turning off more and more 'realistic' features of flight sims so that I could ENJOY the game. Thats just me.
Evidently, game developers like HTC must ride that fine line between "Gameplay" and "Realism." They can never please everyone with their decisions. Sure glad I don't have to make those kind of decisions.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 04-19-2001).]
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Real time pilot fatique? Hook up a bio-monitor that measures blood pressure, heartrate, weight and body fat percentage through the stick, throttle and seat. Feed that information into the sim to set a grayout and blackout threshold. I bet a lot of real life people that fly this sim couldn't come close to the simulated 6G blackout value that we are afforded in AH.
MiG
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I sure get enough pilot fatigue as it is. Please dont add to it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
From when I start a session to I end it I can always see a lesser killratio in the end than in the begining.
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Evidently, game developers like HTC must ride that fine line between "Gameplay" and "Realism."
No doubt about it Rip ... and that was the main point of my above post.
I suppose I just find it interesting how some people can hold two, diametrically opposing viewpoints in their mind at the same time, and appear to believe in both of them. It either means they are of two minds, or simply have two faces (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But you are dead right Ripsnort about the need for balance between gameplay and realism. We've had quite a few 'gameplay' concessions in the last few releases.... how about a 'realism' feature for a change? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Jekyll,
Out of mild curiosity, what changes in the last few versions have been for gameplay, in your opinion?
I'd like to know what you see as concessions. I know I have some things that I think were concessions, but I suspect you have more and/or different items on your list.
Thanks.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Jekyll,
Out of mild curiosity, what changes in the last few versions have been for gameplay, in your opinion?
I'd like to know what you see as concessions. I know I have some things that I think were concessions, but I suspect you have more and/or different items on your list.
Thanks.
I'd say 1.04 was a strictly 'gameplay' release. The introduction of combat trim, revised FM's etc. Of course, there are a whole host of gameplay concessions which have been with AH from the very start. Long range buff guns, the icon system, instant ack etc.
Now I just KNOW there's gonna be guys jump in here and say "But the pre 1.04 FM's were wrong!" Well, that may be the case, but 1.04 saw a big move towards TnB rather than energy fighting IMO.
All I'm saying wrt pilot fatigue is this: that in real life a pilot couldnt instantly snap his head around whilst pulling 6g's ... that trying to roll a 109 at 400mph was hard work, as was pulling on the elevator of a Spitfire at that speed. And I'm damn sure that if you were flying a Spit, and pulled 5 or 6 consecutive max G turns into blackout, with a few neg G moves thrown in, you'd be feeling mightly poorly afterwards.
It's about BALANCE ..... balance between the TnB and BnZ crowd. Managing your fatigue is no different to managing your aircraft's energy state.. it provides another level of immersion to the game.
Surely that's not a bad thing? But I agree with funked... the onset of blackout at present seems awfully low. Perhaps a more graduated entry to blackout is what is required as a starter.
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Jekyll
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
Aces High Training Corps
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Jekyll,
One note, the Spitfire maintained light elevator control all the way through its flight envelope. It did, however, get quite difficult to roll, though not as hard as the 109.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Jekyll,
One note, the Spitfire maintained light elevator control all the way through its flight envelope. It did, however, get quite difficult to roll, though not as hard as the 109.
Sorry Karnak, you are quite correct. I meant to say 'aileron' wrt the Spitfire.
All your vodkas are belong to me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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How about adding G limits to engines also Spit's engines had a very bad habit of quitting in neg gs due to oil being sucked out of ducts but I guess HTC won't model them any time soon......
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
Besser tot als rot
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Actually, there really does need to be some work on oil pressure...
planes with sump oil pumps can fly negative G's indefinately (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Glasses it was a problem with the carburetor float. During short periods of negative-g flight, it would cause an overly lean mixture, and during sustained flight in this condition it caused overly rich mixture.
The problem was partially solved by a modification which was standard from March 1941 and was invented by Miss Tilly Shilling. This allowed short periods of negative-g flight.
By the end 1942 the Bendix-Stromberg injection carburetor became standard equipment on Spitfires and allowed sustained negative-g flight.
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By the end 1942 the Bendix-Stromberg injection carburetor became standard equipment on Spitfires and allowed sustained negative-g flight.
Great news funked! Since I have often heard the RAFwobbles saying that the Spit IX is a 1942 aircraft, no doubt in the near future HTC will rectify this problem and ensure that both the Spit V and IX are unable to sustain inverted flight!
<flameprotectivesuit=1> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I don't know about fatigue. But I do wonder about a pilot's ability to look around so much while in high Gs. I was in the backseat of a T33 (F80 trainer) when the pilot suddenly did a break - put the wings vertical and pulled - without warning me. My head went to one side and there it basically stayed through the maneuver. I don't know how many Gs we pulled, but the curtains were coming down (not a tunnel, but a black out from the top down was how I recalled it). But I maintained some vision and knew what was up, I could have flown if I was flying I think. But I don't think I could have readily been looking back and forth and over my shoulders like you can in AH. I did wrestling bridge workouts in High School, I think my neck strength wasn't all that bad at the time? We could add this limitation to AH too but, then again, why? Leave the blackouts as they are - already they are pretty annoying. By the way anyone know what Gs they pulled in T33/F80? Curious as I never did think to ask the guy. I'm guessing it was only about three G but not sure.
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sigh !!! sips drink moves on (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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DRILL
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Jekyll we both know that the real limitation on sustained inverted flight is lubrication, and you wouldn't see any of these planes sustaining inverted flight if this factor were included in the sim.
I actually don't know for sure that the carb with Miss Shilling's invention couldn't keep provide fuel for sustained inverted flight. I do know that there was some performance decrease in this condition, but the magnitude is not clear. With the Bendix-Stromberg unit there was no change whatsoever in carb performance when inverted, and that's the distinction I was trying to make.