Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: PFactorDave on November 19, 2008, 12:04:23 AM
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I was watching a few films from fights I had earlier today.
One particular film got me to thinking.
I was flying my trusty Ki84, came upon a P51 on the six of a squadmate. After asking my squadmate if he wanted help, I proceeded to pick the P51 (although he did get my squadmate just a moment before I got him).
Well, PM'd the P51 driver, apologized for the pick. Explained that I don't like to interrupt a 1vs1 that is so far away from anyone else (like this one was, out over the water. No other icons in sight) and that my squadmate had asked me to help clear his six. Well, an amicable conversation ensued. Shortly after that, I was high near a friendly base and in comes a P51. Well, he stayed away from me, occaisionally diving on other planes below. But staying away from me. At one point he told me that he doesn't fight Ki84s. Well, he proceeded to make a run at me a couple of times, but always getting out of my reach in fairly short order. Eventually, he caught me looking in the wrong direction and did something I wasn't expecting. For a brief time I lost sight of him, he got in behind me, and while I did see him about 1k out and manuevered to get out of his guns, he did manage to clip my tail. It was a good shot and a good kill.
At any rate, it got me thinking. He knew his Pony would lose some of its advantages if he got in close and tried to turn with my KI84, so he chose not to. Nothing wrong with that. He used his superior speed to eventually get a good shot on me. But I was wondering, what to do in such a situation when your aircraft has virtually no advantages?
I have noticed that Spit16s give me a problem when most other factors are relatively equal. A 1vs1 with a face to face merge usually ends badly for me, unless the Spit driver makes a mistake that I am able to exploit.
I even went to Gonzo's comparison site and compare the Spit 16 to my KI84, and sure enough, the Spit16 is pretty much equal or slightly better then my Ki in just about everything. Usually my Ki84 will have an exploitable advantage in at least one category, but against the Spit16 not so much.
Now, that said, I don't intend to simply avoid fighting Spit16s. I think fighting them will force me to be more precise with my manuevering and hopefully will eventually beat the noobish mistakes out of me. Plus they seeem to break apart quite nicely when I do hit them.
But I was wondering how more experienced sticks approach aircraft that are potentially more capable then their own? Is it purely a matter of go for it and hope your ACM proves to be superior? Or is the approach much more precise and calculated?
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I pretty much attack everything and expect my skills to be superior negating the effects of having a worse ride.
When they aren't, I'm in for a treat and a nice more lengthy fight. Thing is this is how I approached it when I wasn't really expecting to outskill the opponents. Makes you learn quicker and if you can accept dying, you'll have more fun than running scared and looking for rare targets of opportunity.
Just mind your SA and relish the times you can get into a fight without having to adjust your turning due to pick attempts.
If you want to be more timid you can attack all planes which have inferior turning ability to you when you have an alt/e disadvantage but you feel you can lure them into a fight.
Avoid tighter turning planes with alt adv on you.. eventually you will be to observe who and what u can get a reversal kill on.. then it doesn't really matter what plane they're in, just look at the way they're moving it around and if they're flying with smarts.
The fortunate thing is that most spit16 sticks aren't very good and probably fly with stall limiter which would give you the advantage anyway ;)
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Depends if i'm going to furball, I'd fly into 5 baddies and see how long I can live. When I fly BnZ I want to live so i tend to stay alive often.
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But I was wondering how more experienced sticks approach aircraft that are potentially more capable then their own? Is it purely a matter of go for it and hope your ACM proves to be superior? Or is the approach much more precise and calculated?
So many players - so many approaches.
While you can take it for granted that the "best" (however you may define that) sticks did not develop their skill from being overly cautious, theres still a huge variation in their approaches. Personal preference, even temper, mood, experience, all play a role. Each player has his own place between the extremes of "attacking everything red" and "only fight when you are sure you will win"
Me for example - I am a "survivalist". I try to get my job done AND to get home. Usually I even place more emphasis on "getting home" unless I'm depserately trying to catch that goon near town or similar.
This has always been my approach, but of course the "risks" I am willing to take have changed over the last 3 years. Getting better SA, gaining more confidence, learning the planes led to taking more "risks" even though my attitude is basically the same.
But I remember a few phases where some planes gave me such problems, that I tenden to avoid fightimg them completely over the time -for example F4U's back when my main ride was the Ki-84 ;)
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The fortunate thing is that most spit16 sticks aren't very good and probably fly with stall limiter which would give you the advantage anyway ;)
You know, I hadn't considered the stall limiter. I turned it off as soon as I learned of its existance and never looked back. I'd also be curious to hear a discussion of how much of an effect the stall limiter has.
It's a good point.
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But I remember a few phases where some planes gave me such problems, that I tenden to avoid fightimg them completely over the time -for example F4U's back when my main ride was the Ki-84 ;)
Really? I've never been that worried by F4Us. Maybe that is because they are similar to P51s... Lots of people fly them, but few know how to fly them (I include myself in that group, I have had little success in the Corsairs).
As for my mindset when flying... Well, I don't consider myself to be overly timid. I dislike fights that require me to climb for a long time just to get on equal footing. I really like furballs, especially the ones that have a CV just off shore.
All that said, if I can get my plane home.... I will. If I take an oil hit, I'll look to exit the fight and then do whatever I can to make it home. If I take a pilot wound, I try to exit the fight and get on the ground before I die. I really really hate bailing from an undamaged plane. I watch my fuel, and try to have a set fuel level which I consider to be Bingo and time to get out of the fight.
For me, it's not really a score thing.... More of an immersion thing. There is a bit of a fantasy element to the flight sim. For me, part of that is to try and make it home if I can.
With that in mind, I also find myself reaching a stage of skill developement where I crave the 1vs1 fight. The skills are on the verge of clicking into place and I really look forward to those fights that put the skills to the test and/or teach me something new. But I also dislike the concept of the set piece duel. Dueling seems too contrived to me. I don't expect precisely equal starting energy states and identical aircraft.
Well, enough from me... It's late and I'm just rambling really.
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F4Us according to AH model is the best overall plane for any task ^_^. F4U-4 make me feel like I can take on anything. Whew good thing I don't fly em.
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This kind of question usually elicits two schools of thought.
One will be along the lines that this is a game, and no one really dies, so take the fight that comes and don't worry about it. Of course, usually those replies come from exceptional sticks who will win most of the time in an inferior plane. I agree with that to a point.
The other school of thought will mention something about immersion and flying smart. I can agree with that to a point also.
Both schools of thought taken too far end up with players quitting. The first because it frustrates newer players, and the second because it makes for a poor gaming environment when living is more important than fighting.
My advise is to know both your limitations and your planes limitations, and then constantly strive to push past those limitations by just a bit. The more you challenge yourself, the quicker you'll learn, but don't beat yourself up by flying stupid either.
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Put simply, anyone who says "I never fight X plane" is not a great pilot, or at the least is not flying to become the best pilot they can be. There is always a time to attack, and between those times there will be time to parry while you wait for your next attack. There is no defense. Even when you are in evasives you are maneuvering to go on the offensive. Aggressiveness wins out, and you don't learn unless you challenge yourself.
Now, this aggressiveness can take a few forms, it can be anywhere from reckless to calculated. Some pilots will throw themselves into a 4v1, others will wait until the time is just right to attack. I'm not one to say which is the best way, because I know personally I employ both based on how I'm feeling (and usually how much time I have to fly). From reckless to calculated is personal preference. Just so long as there is no set rule to "never" attack a certain plane.
That's why it somewhat bothers me to hear of someone, as in your example, who would "never" fight a Ki84. But reading on, it seems like he went on the offensive when he had the opportunity, so place him more along the lines of a "calculated" attacker. Nothing wrong with that. At least he attacked a plane he knew he had trouble with, when he felt the time was right.
Now if you're cornered, have no option but to fight a plane co-e that is superior in every regard, fight it out on the more ambitious side of aggressive. You don't have the options to be calculated. You'll be surprised how much ACM you actually know. And given the general skill level you encounter in the MA, you probably have a better shot of winning than you think.
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That's why it somewhat bothers me to hear of someone, as in your example, who would "never" fight a Ki84. But reading on, it seems like he went on the offensive when he had the opportunity, so place him more along the lines of a "calculated" attacker. Nothing wrong with that. At least he attacked a plane he knew he had trouble with, when he felt the time was right.
Let me be clear... I honestly think he was just kidding around and teasing me when he said he didn't fight Ki84s. Which of course he was. I got the bullet holes to prove it. It was just something he said as part of some harmless (and friendly 200 banter). As it happens, I think most folks would agree that this person IS one of the good sticks, but I don't think it is really appropriate to bring his identity into the discussion, and entirely unnecessary. What he said just got me to thinking about the idea of avoiding fights and how you approach an aircraft that has so many performance advantages.
That's the discussion I'm hoping to get going here really.
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What he said just got me to thinking about the idea of avoiding fights and how you approach an aircraft that has so many performance advantages.
That's the discussion I'm hoping to get going here really.
Well, there's not only performance but also situational advantages. When I decide to engage a markedly superior fighter, I'm usualy having also an exit strategy.
When I have only a small situational advantage, I might probe my enemy first...I observe his style of flying, I'm looking for obvious signs indicationg his skill level, his agressiveness etc before making a plan and commencing my attack. How far I'm pushing it is depending on relative plane capabilities (knowledge is power!), my enemy's reaction and of course what's happening around us.
Of course, when the fight is forced upon me, I have no choice but to fight ;)
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Is it purely a matter of go for it and hope your ACM proves to be superior? Or is the approach much more precise and calculated?
My approach is calculated. I have a massive amount of esoteric knowledge on a wide range of plane vs plane expectations, identifying tells of what level of opponent I'm up against, what to expect from an average adversary, identifying a bad situation evolving well in advance, and not allowing myself to get trapped in it. I know I can take my P-38 vs plane model X for Y number of turns, and if I don't have the advantage by that point, it's time to duck out/reset the fight for example. I carry all of those factors into a fight. But I also fly to keep my options open, so that I can engage on my terms and "guide" the fight to my advantage.
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I would suggest to fight every chance you get,no matter plane or advantage, or disadvantage, wether its 1vs1 or 1 vs 10.
it don't get no better then killing all your attackers, but if you never push it, and only fight that which you are guaranteed to win, that is a feeling you will never achieve. To be victorious over 3 NME is insanly awesome, but imagine what kind of rush you will get when you kill 7 out of the 10 that are attacking you.
that my friend is the best.
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I would suggest to fight every chance you get,no matter plane or advantage, or disadvantage, wether its 1vs1 or 1 vs 10.
it don't get no better then killing all your attackers, but if you never push it, and only fight that which you are guaranteed to win, that is a feeling you will never achieve. To be victorious over 3 NME is insanly awesome, but imagine what kind of rush you will get when you kill 7 out of the 10 that are attacking you.
that my friend is the best.
this is me on most nights and killing 3enemy froma 3on1 is awesome. hell i even get a kick out of just lasting a while even if I only get oneor two.
again though, like lusche said mood plays a part in this. sometimes I just feel like surviving and sometimes if the opponent used some sort of dweebish tactics and got a lucky shot then I will exit out if possible just because I don't want him to have kill. This type of thingis rare though, most times Ihave not left myself the factors necessary to exit.
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Ive gotten os used to my F4U, im confident enough, ill fight just about (not all) planes. i wont fight zekes, cant find my strength that they will play into, i cant out turn hurri's, and the hispanos on em chew me apart. depending on E states however i may be able to out climb the Hurri's. generally, i fight whatever wants to fight if i can get them down to my level. otherday i was in a P47 D-11, 75% fuel, and less alt than an F6F. F6F was Essay, :salute sir fun fight, i started out with a HO, having superior guns and armor, unsure of my strenghts over him. dodged some picks, eventually got his E equal or less than mine, and did a rolling scissors, and clipped his wing. :salute again Essay. for me that was just an Approach out of habbit, im normally lower than cons in my F4U, so it was nothing new for me.
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Get him to saddle up on you and commit to a gun solution. Skyrock told me once that he'd rather have a guy behind him close,because then he can make sudden moves to throw the guy off his shot. Basically, you try to get the guy to over-shoot, then jump in behind him and Blam! Start a scissors and see if he'll go with you.Chop throttle to get him to fly past. It doesn't always work for me, but alot of times it does. :salute
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This kind of question usually elicits two schools of thought.
One will be along the lines that this is a game, and no one really dies, so take the fight that comes and don't worry about it. Of course, usually those replies come from exceptional sticks who will win most of the time in an inferior plane. I agree with that to a point.
The other school of thought will mention something about immersion and flying smart. I can agree with that to a point also.
Well put. Much depends on what you're looking for - mastering ACM, or simulating WWII (...well...something like WWII). Neither goal is superior to the other, you just need to decide which one is you.
If you happen to pick the first, though, you will not learn much from avoiding any fight (other than how best to avoid a fight). Entering a fight at a disadvantage necessarily means you will get shot down a lot. As Murdr suggests, if that starts to wear on you, then ease up on how often you enter fights at a disadvantage.
- oldman
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There is no right answer to this one. It's all based on individual expectations combined with a prudent read of the tactical realities. As an example way back when my primary ride was a hog I loved spitXVI's and hated the VIII's. The guys in the 8 just were better overall pilots as a whole I think. Now if a spitty was high then I was an aggressive angles fighter and usually could either win or draw vs a high %. The flip side is I gave a lot of respect to the low spit drivers...especially the 9's and the 5's. The thing to understand IMO is if you control the encounter or not. If you dont control the fight then you have 2 options. Be aggressive early and try and force a fight you feel you can win or play wait and see.
As murdr posted elsewhere in respnonse to a few of your films most good pilots in inferior positions have a set of "trap moves" designed to entice a poor response. Normally I can tell who i'm fighting by how they respond early to what I show them. If so then I'll normally look to attack there 2nd or 3rd counter in the sequence. As Murdr said he's going to fly with a defined set of expectations (as do most good pilots) so the key is knowing when to use the change up...
As an example most good E fighters have a great change up bounce. They give you one look and then the 3rd pass or so they totally alter a key aspect and often catch you cross controlled trying to respond to the difference.
To me you fly the gal you brought to the dance. If you took off looking to land then only landing makes a hop successful. If you took off looking for a fight then you fight what you find and take your chances. By and large I'm a blood & bullets type of flier...I wont rtb till the bb's gas, oil or pilot is going...that doesnt mean its right or wrong.
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But I was wondering how more experienced sticks approach aircraft that are potentially more capable then their own? Is it purely a matter of go for it and hope your ACM proves to be superior? Or is the approach much more precise and calculated?
I fly the 109G-6 frequently, and it is outclassed in all categories by a number of aircraft, e.g. Spit VIII and Spit XVI are two big ones. When I'm flying the inferior aircraft, I approach with caution if I don't see an advantage I can exploit. I might merge co-e with a Spit16 and if I see an opportunity to do it, I'll blow right on by. If he chases a wingman will deal with him (and it's pretty funny how many will enter an extended tail chase). There's really no reason to give someone in a trainer Spixteen a chance to saddle up on your 6 if you can help it. You're probably in a multi-bandit engagement where keeping your speed up is paramount. Getting slow in a hot-rod is one thing, in a plane that's a couple years out of its prime it's asking to get picked, ganged, everything.
On the other hand, if it's a real 1vs1 situation, there's no other bandits that you can see in the area and you don't expect any soon, and you have a chance to slug it out, go ahead and try it.
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I'm either shooting, looking to make a shot, or avoiding being shot. Everything else is time wasting between engagements. The only exception is when i have speed to extend and am being attacked by multiples, occasionally i will employ a smart move to reset my options. Mostly plane type does not matter to me in regards to turning ability or such like, all i care about is how many cannon they have.
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If you can piss in the other guy's soup by shooting him down, then by all means do so. If your options have come down to running to deny him a kill, thus giving him an apoplexy and making him quit the game :devil , then do that.
It is not like your opposition is anything but pixels on a screen anyway. (There are actually no other players in the game besides you Dave. AHII is in fact an elaborately crafted scheme, complete with AIs who can fly in a variety of styles, "trash talk" on 200, AND make broad philosophical posts on the BBS, a scheme whose sole purpose is to get YOU and only you to send them $15 a month.)
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If you can piss in the other guy's soup by shooting him down, then by all means do so. If your options have come down to running to deny him a kill, thus giving him an apoplexy and making him quit the game :devil , then do that.
I do that to Spit-16, LA7 and it's funny to see them chase me around for 10 minutes while i just make wide turns and come back attackin other stuff. Of course these guys would come in at like 15K trying to get the 190s =p
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As murdr posted elsewhere in respnonse to a few of your films most good pilots in inferior positions have a set of "trap moves" designed to entice a poor response. Normally I can tell who i'm fighting by how they respond early to what I show them. If so then I'll normally look to attack there 2nd or 3rd counter in the sequence.
This caught my eye. I wonder if you might describe in detail what some of these trap moves look like and what they are designed to do.
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This caught my eye. I wonder if you might describe in detail what some of these trap moves look like and what they are designed to do.
Typically it is a variation of creating a flight path overshoot and converting it into a wingline overshoot. Though it could also be a rope-a-dope or some other example that I can't seem to come up with at the moment :) Regarding the overshoot, I have a lesson package of annotated films here --> http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/files.htm under "barrel roll defense", in case you haven't stumbled across that yet.
I have these diagrams on hand from a previous discussion...
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/pure2.jpg)
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/overshoot.jpg)
(The screenshots are from 38jvki84.ahf (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile;id=3))
Edit: While your at that trainer page I linked to, you might want to check out Spatula's performance app. It give more detailed turn info than DokGonzo's site.
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I was watching a few films from fights I had earlier today.
One particular film got me to thinking.
I was flying my trusty Ki84, came upon a P51 on the six of a squadmate. After asking my squadmate if he wanted help, I proceeded to pick the P51 (although he did get my squadmate just a moment before I got him).
Well, PM'd the P51 driver, apologized for the pick. Explained that I don't like to interrupt a 1vs1 that is so far away from anyone else (like this one was, out over the water. No other icons in sight) and that my squadmate had asked me to help clear his six. Well, an amicable conversation ensued. Shortly after that, I was high near a friendly base and in comes a P51. Well, he stayed away from me, occaisionally diving on other planes below. But staying away from me. At one point he told me that he doesn't fight Ki84s. Well, he proceeded to make a run at me a couple of times, but always getting out of my reach in fairly short order. Eventually, he caught me looking in the wrong direction and did something I wasn't expecting. For a brief time I lost sight of him, he got in behind me, and while I did see him about 1k out and manuevered to get out of his guns, he did manage to clip my tail. It was a good shot and a good kill.
At any rate, it got me thinking. He knew his Pony would lose some of its advantages if he got in close and tried to turn with my KI84, so he chose not to. Nothing wrong with that. He used his superior speed to eventually get a good shot on me. But I was wondering, what to do in such a situation when your aircraft has virtually no advantages?BUT SEE, you DO have advantages. your aircraft turns better. keep avoiding. try to gain alt in each dodge. either he'll make a mistake, you'll equalize alts, taking away a bit of his advantage, or he'll leave.
I have noticed that Spit16s give me a problem when most other factors are relatively equal. A 1vs1 with a face to face merge usually ends badly for me, unless the Spit driver makes a mistake that I am able to exploit.
I even went to Gonzo's comparison site and compare the Spit 16 to my KI84, and sure enough, the Spit16 is pretty much equal or slightly better then my Ki in just about everything. Usually my Ki84 will have an exploitable advantage in at least one category, but against the Spit16 not so much.
Now, that said, I don't intend to simply avoid fighting Spit16s. I think fighting them will force me to be more precise with my manuevering and hopefully will eventually beat the noobish mistakes out of me. Plus they seeem to break apart quite nicely when I do hit them.
But I was wondering how more experienced sticks approach aircraft that are potentially more capable then their own? Is it purely a matter of go for it and hope your ACM proves to be superior? Or is the approach much more precise and calculated?
i actually took down an f4u the other night doing what you describe the pony as doing to you. i REALLY think i caught him not looking up at me, as i think he's a better stick than that.
when i'm on the recieving end, i generally turn into them, or try to force an overshoot. i'm not very good yet at dealking with high cons, but i try.
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I'll fight anything in anything but I'll try to do so in a way that utilizes whatever advantages I have (either my plane's inherent abilities over my opponents or our relative position/E states). Depending on my familiarity with a particular plane I might be more or less agressive in it.
In the end I always want to fly home and land any kill(s) but I still have a tendency to get sucked into multi-con situations.
The only time not to fight is when I'm bingo ammo, low on fuel, my plane (or pilot) is damaged or the odds are overwhelmingly (4+) against me.