Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Westy on March 03, 2001, 11:25:00 AM
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I saw this on another forum:
(ie: in regard to AH) "The only way to saddle up on a target without seeing mini warps is to have a very good connection with dsl or cable.. dial up guys have no chance to excel in AH. This sim looks real good, but it isn't really for the masses yet."
How many dial-up users out there find this to be true? How many who have cable or DSL do?
For me? I find that it made no difference going from a 33.6 dial up connection, way back in the beginning, to cable modem service. It made no difference in AW (connects still had large variance and delay) or in AH (delay and variance was still great). I did stop getting dumps/disconnects from my ISP for sure and large downloads are a snap (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
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ADSL 256/256 with ping about 170ms. Sometimes I see a little mini-warps but usually these guys got a bad connection.
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Two pilots engaged both with dsl will be fine...you with dsl/them with dial-up...not as good.
The nature of the internet itself will not allow perfection.
The statement above is ridiculus...been doin this for over ten years...it's never been an issue for me...perhaps I've been fortunate to have quality isp's? Who knows...I can only speak to my own experiences (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hi Westy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ice
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ISDN here, brother uses dial-up. The above statement pasted from the forum is simply not true. The quality of your ISP is the most important issue, followed by the routing it takes to get to the game servers.
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Dolomite is right...
A lower speed connection is better for online play. Going back to AW DOS days and WBs the adive back then was 9600 buad was the best connect speed for online games.
When the 28,8 and 36,6 modems came out, it was suggested to keep ypur connect at 19,000 baud. There was a ton of documentation on the reasons for this and if i find it, ill post the link.
So guys like Nath that think an ADSL is best for AH doesnt know much about online gaming.
As a matter of fact, HT or Pyro may remember the reasons for this as they also go back to AW DOS days.
ADSL means nothing if a router into HTC is porked.And some days i go though 18 routers.
Dog out......
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my old 56k ISP= 800-1200ms ping on games
Cable=90ms on games.
Hell yeah!
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Sorry, but anyone that says it is better to have a slower connection for online play is just full of bull. How could having a higher ping time make for better game play? Yes the quality of the ISP makes a difference, but with cable or dsl the connection is digital, not analog , which means the connection is almost always more consistant. Try making a call on a cell phone on analog roam then try it on digital mode. Hear that fuzz on analog? So does your modem. That fuzz = packet loss when your playing a game.
When you saddle up to take that kill shot and the guy warps outta the way, it might be his connection, but if your playing on a modem it is most likely yours. When my squad is flying formation, I can always tell the guys who have modems because there planes look like they are shaking and warping all the time.
I have a cable and i get a consistant 80ms to the hitech servers. And i would definetly never trade that for my buddy Deezcamp that lives a few mile from me but has a modem. He gets about 300-400ms.
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Having cable as made things much easier for me. While I was in Australia I was dialed up with 56k and there were a few key differences:
1) On 56k, if I collided with someone, I would get credit for the kill nearly every time (if it was a HO).
On cable, if I collide with someone, I never get the kill.
2) On 56k, I hosed people down (due to the damage being delayed) - I just wouldnt stop shooting until I saw a part fall off.
On cable, I can pop a few rounds into someone and see (pretty much instantly) what damage I've dealt.
3) On 56k occasionally it would look like I got away without a scratch in dire situations, only to be blown to pieces a few seconds later.
On cable, this never happens.
4) On 56k, sometimes I would plow someone with rounds, only to have someone else shoot the con a few seconds later and get credit for the kill.
On cable, this never happens.
There is a clear advantage to having better ping. The game is still wonderfully playable with slow connections, but anyone who says it's better (or even the same) is mistaken.
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Originally posted by Wardog:
Dolomite is right...
A lower speed connection is better for online play. Going back to AW DOS days and WBs the adive back then was 9600 buad was the best connect speed for online games.
When the 28,8 and 36,6 modems came out, it was suggested to keep ypur connect at 19,000 baud. There was a ton of documentation on the reasons for this and if i find it, ill post the link.
So guys like Nath that think an ADSL is best for AH doesnt know much about online gaming.
As a matter of fact, HT or Pyro may remember the reasons for this as they also go back to AW DOS days.
ADSL means nothing if a router into HTC is porked.And some days i go though 18 routers.
Dog out......
Well, I would say that ADSL is best, if we dont go for some really expensive deals.
Expecting that you're using same router as you have used with modem.
(thats the case with me)
Since those days, which I remember well (I've played warbirds with 14.4k modem), requirements have gone up.
Of course you can play AH with 56k modem, but ADSL is still better, due to lower latency (I'd get 160ms to HTC from Finland, with modem a. 270ms) and has bandwidth for sure.
I just wonder whats your point with saying nath doesnt know anything about online gaming if he says that ADSL is best.
Assumed that ADSL and modem user would have routers with same quality.
I guess we could as well use Voodoo 1, since it did work couple of years back fairly....?
same bad logic in that comparison, with more noticeable difference.
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Dudes,
I have a cable modem with outstanding bandwidth. Here is a great tool to check your actual through put against what your ISP is claiming.
http://msn.zdnet.com/partners/msn/bandwidth/speedtest50.htm (http://msn.zdnet.com/partners/msn/bandwidth/speedtest50.htm)
I get over 1.5meg consistently without interruption.
However here is my experience with AH.
I am in an HO in equal A/C starting at about 1k. I start firing and my NME starts firing. My virtual bullets seem to get stuck in the deley of his inferior bandwidth. Where as his bullets seem to zoom to me at an incredible rate. In other words if I HO someone and we both die 99% of the time he will get a kill message and I won't. Reason my PC gets and sends the report of damage back to the server much faster than my virtual opponent.
Think I'm exaggerating? Try fighting a warping A/C and see who benefits from the net lag, you or your lagging NME.
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Dudes,
I have a cable modem with outstanding bandwidth. Here is a great tool to check your actual through put against what your ISP is claiming.
http://msn.zdnet.com/partners/msn/bandwidth/speedtest50.htm (http://msn.zdnet.com/partners/msn/bandwidth/speedtest50.htm)
Just one problem with this...
It doesn't tell connections to everywhere..
For you, it might be local, for me, it might be another side of world almost and tapped to bad router.
In fact, I got better connection to HTC than to ZDnet... (lost packets to ZDNet, but not to HTC or many others)
*LOL* I switched to my another ISP, heres the result from ZDNet:
Your line speed:
4080 Kbps
500 K bytes/sec
Okey, I lost my trust on that site (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 03-04-2001).]
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So guys like Nath that think an ADSL is best for AH doesnt know much about online gaming.
AH from Victoria with Dialup@ 33.6/28.8/and 19.2 Ping around 250ms. a few disconnects here and there
Cox 1mbit down 256k up. 35ms never disconnected unless server goes down.
yea sure you go ahead and believe dialup is better for games..and I will keep laughing.
Cable and xDSL are the best thing to ever happen to on-line games. anyone who says otherwise...doesent have Cable or DSL and is just trying to deny the fact that they are missing out. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I have no problem with my current modem. I learned a lesson though. If you ever hear the name "WinModem" break out your shotgun and use said modem for skeet.
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I've played all my years with a 56k dial up. Currently I always connect to my ISP at 48k and ping the AH site at 130ms avg.
I've seen ppl with both style of connections have terrible connects. I for one have tried setting my modem down to slower connect speed to see and the result was horrible.
Funny thing is, over on the MSzone there of course are some terrible connects most of the time. It use to not be that way and though some may have encountered differently, I never saw the types of warping problems there that I do here.
One reason was that anyone with over a 350ms was lucky to even get in the game as the server would boot them. The other was that it was completely unplayable to them at that connect.
I never saw "micro" warps except on rare basis till I got here and have never seen the amount of "blaming on connections" for game oddities that I've seen go on here.
The faster the better! Packet loss is a multitude of problems that aren't just because you have a DSL line vs. dial up.
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Wingnut
Luftjagerkorps
(http://www.facelink.com/edit/raw/rawimage/27/1444127.gif)
The quality of the box matters little. Success depends upon the man who sits in it - Baron Manfred von Richthofen
[This message has been edited by Wingnut_0 (edited 03-04-2001).]
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i'm around 250-300ms with 56k modem
it seems to be playable...
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Originally posted by Wingnut_0:
The faster the better! Packet loss is a multitude of problems that aren't just because you have a DSL line vs. dial up.
Thats why you shouldn't use DSL of some kickass poor company (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Got to use DSL from one which has good connections.
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"Sorry, but anyone that says it is better to have a slower connection for online play is just full of bull. How could having a higher ping time make for better game play?"
It doesn't. What is most important for games like AH is a consistant, smooth flow of data. Higher speed is secondary and results in less lag between two planes. If a connection is choppy, fast and then slow, or has pauses you get warps. Worse yet is if you lose data.
Modem connections on poor quality lines will be less consistant with higher speeds. Slowing the connection will sometimes help with the warps. But the tradeoff is that you get a greater lag between plane positions which make range inaccurate and the bogie not being where you see him.
grizzly
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Originally posted by Grizzly:
It doesn't. What is most important for games like AH is a consistant, smooth flow of data. Higher speed is secondary and results in less lag between two planes. If a connection is choppy, fast and then slow, or has pauses you get warps. Worse yet is if you lose data.
This exactly is the problem with some cable modems, when latency bounces up and down..
though, DSL usually keeps very stable latency..
I would personally prefer DSL over cable modem for gameplay, due to more stable connection.
Though, DSL downside is that it might cost alot more as well.
There are some exceptions when cable modem is better, but chance for those are like one out of hundreds, it seems.
for AH, I believe that DSL is best solution for home end user.
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Thanks guys. That's what I already thought. It's not the issue it's been made out to be eslewhere. This isn't a LPB favouring game like RogueSpear or Half Life. DSL/Cable does give you a faster and steadier connection to your ISP's pop (point of presence) which is where you connect to your ISP. but after that your packet, my packet, his packet all travel the same internet at the same speed and incurring the same problems. No one at the head of the line here for paying more to thier ISP let me assure you.
I have 8 years experience with MCI, Cable&Wireles and WorldcomUUNet in the IP dial up, frame relay and IP back bone services and I'm just surprised at the misconceptions and out right fallacies there are spewed out there all the time.
Add in Winblowmodems, lousy phone lines and homes using cordless phones and you wonder how any one with dial up can play. Yes. Cordless phones and baby monitors can screw with your dial up connection even if you are on a second line. It's the dirty RF from them.
I do not have DSL or cable conection directly to Applink and HTC's servers. Damn. Now I am getting a bit jealous at Indian though... But Verizons DSL is looking better as the quaility of my new ISP for cable modem service gets worse. I've been having spikey sessions and just over all generally bad net connects the last week. All over, not just to HTC's servers.
No need to say who the author was behind that post but I'll just add he does not like AH and probably for what the damage it has done to the numbers in the game he plays. He does make a good effort to slander AH at most occasions. Which is a shame. We were friends once. Aquaintances at best now.
I just wanted to hear opinions from players who've been around more than just a couple of two week sessions and that did not already have an anti-AH disposition. I truly wasn't looking for positive or negative although I already felt I knew the answer.
added note: It almost goes without saying that the gaming industry can't stand still and design for folks with Pent 166's. Same thing with internet technology. It has to evolve too and it can't sit still for folks who still use dial up modems when there are other choices around. Course, PC upgrades and DSL cable have a higher $$$. But they are available choices for most people.
Hi ICE (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-04-2001).]
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I hardly ever see microwarps...it's either smooth or it's furbar'd.
Guess I'm in pretty good shape because I can hit Applink in 5 hops from Houston, at 115ms latency avg. which has been that way for about 3 years with Earthlink (only reason I haven't switched)
- Bessy
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ISDN here, 180ms.
Compared to 56k modem I've had, ISDN rocks.
No warps.
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Since beginning AirWarrior I've gone from a 28K, to 56k, to ISDN to ADSL all in pursuit of the perfect connection.
I've gone through dam near every tweak and set up guide there is.
And it's never, ever made a difference.
The fact is that you can have a 6" pipe straight from the back of your P.C. to your ISP running at 400 bar to force those packets through the ISP's letter box, you're still screwed the first bad router you come to. Kind of like using a Ferrari from the house to the train station, only to find it's British Rail anyway....
There's lot's of tweaks modem users can check out to ensure their set up is optimized, but then it's out of your hands.
However, the permanent style of connections (such as ASDL) make a major difference to your surfing and downloading, and even the way you look at and use your PC. Suddenly online Video and audio are a reality, here and now, not just some thing in the P.C. mag as you leaf through to the modem set up pages.....
Westy, no need to get religious on an unbeleiver, some RR types just can't adjust..
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Cable modem here, converted from an at best 51K dial up connection. My connection quality has improved immensely. I hardly ever see an blurps or lag.
ammo
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i have dsl now - i switched from a 56k modem and notice absolutely no difference.
now EVERYTHING else goes a million times faster, when i am downloading something from the net it is just ridiculously fast but really expected more out of dsl for game play
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Originally posted by mrfish:
i have dsl now - i switched from a 56k modem and notice absolutely no difference.
now EVERYTHING else goes a million times faster, when i am downloading something from the net it is just ridiculously fast but really expected more out of dsl for game play
DSL helps to fix up lost packets faster and can use more bandwidth for other games.
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"Westy, no need to get religious on an unbeleiver,..."
No problem there. The suject actually had good merit but sometimes peoples "opinions" ares wrapped in an ulterior motive. His posts was not so much a complaint as it is just down right derogatory, bogus and misleading. A post I felt should be asked here in case there was some unheard from sub-culture who felt they were 2nd class custoemrs to the DSL/cable folks. The originator of that clap trap above lurks here and so do a number of others. He's read the contrary testimonies and opinions so my "yob" is done (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
"some RR types just can't adjust.."
lol. RR in mind for sure.
Well. Now we can rest easy knowing we'll not have to debate PERKING CABLE/DSL USERS!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
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Originally posted by janneh:
ISDN here, 180ms.
Compared to 56k modem I've had, ISDN rocks.
No warps.
Dial-up here.
137 ms. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Posted by war-dog:
So guys like Nath that think an ADSL is best for AH doesnt know much about online gaming.
Ummm... there are other games out there other than Aces High m8. Maybe it's YOU who doesn't know much about online gaming?
I sure would rather have DSL than 56gay for playing quake or another ping-based FPS...
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Nath_____
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/haha.jpg)
A captured Bolshevik pilot once stated, "In battle, the fighters with the green hearts are generally in the minority. But when they're there, things realy heat up. They're all aces!"
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-04-2001).]
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Westy, Skuzzy had some great write-ups and answered alot of my questions regarding my DSl. I've been using Verizon DSL since april, you'll need to really do some home work. If they are still offering USB DSL forget it. I had the USB modem and it blew chunks, worse than a 56k dial up. I now have the Westell external, hooked to a PCI netgear card, It's much much better, but still studdered. You will read in the verizon manual how to make an IP address to correct this. Now my DSL rocks!!!!!!
NUTTZ
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rgr Nuttz. I followed that in the Connection forumn. My cable has been awesome, till they went out of business and the replacement ISP is not up to par imo. the problem with Verizon, imo, is they are great or they sukk bad. It's blakc and white with not much gray in between. And I've heard far more complaints than praise for thier DSL and thier customer service around here than good comments.
Should my cable get worse I'll have to re-think that option. Soon as I they have the $35/mo special right now. Fee install, setup etc.
-Westy
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HBlair,
I guess Janneh lives in Finland (like me too) and between us and HTC is lots of water and some place called Europe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Still my ping is usually about 170ms and never more than 190ms (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I was little surprised how fast connections we have from here if comparing to some players pings from States (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Folks-
Compare apples to apples. If you have the same ISP, routers, etc., Cable is better than 56K or ISDN, that's just common sense. The point is what really matters more than the speed of your connect is the quality of the connect (as it relates to lag and lost packets). My opinion and experience say it is ISP-->Routing-->Bandwidth, in that order.
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Found some info on WBs connect and why a lower baud rate was better. It depend on the host.
Due to the fast moving pace of the WarBirds flight environment, we are sending and requesting data more frequently than other Web programs that are able to wait before updating their information. WarBirds only requires a 19200 baud connection, but it needs to be a smooth one with few interruptions. Even with a 28800 baud modem with all the hardware compression, data compression, and buffer action enabled, unless you have a "perfect" connection, there will be a few errors and pauses due to the volume of traffic.
You can try to improve your connection by dropping the modem's connect speed to a lower setting. If dropping the speed isn't enough, you can try turning off hardware and software compression, or lowering your modem buffers.
There is even more detailed info, ive just got to find it.
Dog out.......