Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Yeager on December 21, 2000, 02:11:00 PM
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So that people do not misjudge my intentions, here is where I come from when I am critical of certain aspects of AcesHigh:
I consider AcesHigh a High Quality Combat Simulator not a self serving fantasy game. The more AcesHigh leans towards fantasy the more uncomfortable I will become. The closer it gets to recreating the real thing, the happier I am. I dont mean engine startup and oxygen discipline. I mean air to air combat manoevering, strategy and tactics. Tanks and ships are great and I wouldnt mind some form of first person soldiering as well, but my true love is planes. Always has been.
One thing that has disturbed me powerfully as of late is a prevailing attitude here on this BBS that if it isnt glowing in praise of the makers then its not worth wasting time on and shutup already. Also happens to people who simply express their dislike for something, anything.
So before you gangbang the poor fella who suggests that the Chog has no validity in a massive multiplayer arena or the Ostiwind is just too disruptive to quality gameplay, take a moment to realize that your condemnation of that persons ability to express themselves may one day apply to your very own valid concerns.
Did I make any sense at all?
Yeager
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"Did I make any sense at all?"
Absolutely. I have ,many of the same wishes and concerns about AH as you, Jekyll and others have.
But some folks just plain blow it in the delivery, the tone or repetativenss of thier message. Amazingly some are good at doing all three. I'm just talking in general Yeager, not pointing a finger at your or anyone in particular.
-Westy
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Totally agree.
Swoop
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I would not be playing AH if it weren't for the realism.
I like hardcore flight sims (F15).
Later,
Grayarea
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Westy said it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The issue I have is how folks go about things, not that they have issues with some parts of the game.
Whether I agree with the addition of the CHog or not is immaterial. But when folks start making claims and stating things as fact that just aren't true, I feel the need to disagree. I have heard lots of whines that the CHog is uber or it makes reversals with no E loss or other such tripe that are just BS. I don't think I can recall one single post discussing the validity of various planes and vehicles in the game and their effect on gameplay.
Yeager, if most folks would present their argument as eloquently as you have, this wouldn't be an issue. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) <S>
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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What in the world are you talking about?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ice
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I can recall a huge number of posts regarding the validity of placing an A/C that had no more than 200 total ever built in the entire war being sotired in numbers that dwarf it's original deployment every damn night. For and against.. back and forth..
It's a bitter issue. Rancor abounds. Facts are fired back and forth like dueling panzers.
It's turned into AH's Northern Ireland... and won't go away. Ever. Even if they take it out.
Kinda follows the path of that other flight sim... all I'm waiting for now is for somebody to gripe about bomb bay door drag not being modeled....
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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"...all I'm waiting for now is for somebody to gripe about bomb bay door drag not being modeled...."
...and the fuel dump swicht too.
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<sitting back and getting out a spare flame suit for Yeager>
Preach on and watch out for the flaming pom poms!
<GDR>
Mav
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Yeager since you seem to want to be serious about this. Then consider this. These are just games. They have about as much in common with flying air to air combat as a Hollywood movie. If you accept them as games, then you look for the one that is the most fun.
I don't mean this as a flame. You have been around a long time, and I respect your ability ,and your manner online. The thing is this. Why don't you fly WB. All the guns are weaker. and there is nothing approaching a chog in the game.
I have had zero problems with the hog. But then im a nik dweeb (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). I just don't understand your attitude towards a single plane. I don't like the pansy-51. but I don't bring it up in every post.
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Yeager,
nice post, I agree with you.
(http://web.tiscalinet.it/gatt/logo2.gif)
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Ditto, Yeager.
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Watch this!
I bet in...say...2 posts, Yeager is gonna start harping on the Chog again!
Mark my words!
(hehe an opportunistic edit if there ever was one - sue me) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 12-21-2000).]
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perfect
sax
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Easymo,
WBs is not a better simulation of air combat in my opinion (before AH it was the best).
Also, the Me262 is far more lethal in WBs then the F4U1C is here. They also have a Quad 20mm Corsair in WBs (Was it a 1C as well?) and both these birds availability is severely limited and for good reason.
When the 1D came to AH I was thrilled. What a great plane to have in the arena. When they announced the 1C I immediately said to myself "oh hell, why did they do that"? and many other people made similar sighs as well. The great F4U1D has basically been screwed into obscurity and that is a great loss from my perspective.
It basically comes down to those people that love the simulation and those that love the game. For the simhead the Chog needs to be treated as a specialty ride. Almost like a circus freak. Pull it out from time to time and amaze the dweebs but by all means keep it leashed and tethered. For the gamer, the Chog is almost ejaculatory. The holy grail of shock gaming.
In my opinion, in an open arena, the Chog cheapens the simulation. Thats probably the best summation I can come up with.
Regards,
Yeager
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Perk the 30mm Hispanos, those didn't exist in real world war 2 spitfires and chogs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Just to clarify...
The F4U-4B (the one with the cannons) was removed PERMANENTLY from the WB planeset by Pyro BEFORE he left WB. It no longer exists.
The Me-262 is POTENTIALLY a bigger problem than the cannonhog, but it's limited to ONE day every 3 weeks. It's more of a nuisance than a viable aircraft, and, as someone will no doubt point out, the 30mm modeling in WB is...er..."controversial." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
So the situation is not the same at all. If you're going to have "all uberplanes, all the time," you have to make sure no ONE plane is significantly more uber than the others. It is kind of odd that a plane removed from WB for being "unbalancing" is allowed to remain in AH, without at least a Dora or Spit 14 to counterbalance it...
Be that as it may, your initial post was quite astute (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
--jedi
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Yeager I agree with most of what you said. I posted what I thought to be a valid concern and was promptly roasted for it. Seems people just get plain mad sometimes; could be the time of year or just that there hasn't been an update in a few weeks. Who knows. I've noticed that some posts here you have to think about in order to really understand. Most of mine are like that; you have to follow my method of thinking somewhat to understand my point of view.
Jedi made an interesting point too:
It is kind of odd that a plane removed from WB for being "unbalancing" is allowed to remain in AH, without at least a Dora or Spit 14 to counterbalance it...
Come to think of it, you need two or three aircraft to counter balance a given threat just to make everyone happy. Sorta like the old round-n-round Spit 14 vs. Dora argument. One can not exist without the other, lest you get whining the likes of which has never been seen on this Earth. But to please everyone, you have to include something extra; P-47N, P-51H, etc... Since people have their preferences when it comes to planes, you have to include enough variations to cover it.
I guess I'm taking after Pyro on this post; just some random stuff.
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/custom1.jpg)
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Yeager says it well, as always. I too get somewhat less than excited when I see a premier WW2 flight sim move down the fantasy path.
I well remember the uproar in WB when the cannon-armed F4U-4 was introduced, then promptly dropped because of 'gameplay' issues.
Personally, I have no real problem with the 1C as such. The N1K2 is another story (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Yes, I think the gunnery modelling in AH is a bit rich, particularly when we have 'accurate to the yard' eyeballs. And I think that introducing both EZ-mode combat trim AND revised FM's in 1.04 was perhaps a mistake.
But AH is still the best out there. I would love to see it stay at the forefront of WW2 combat SIMULATIONS. But the competition is fierce: it seems that in order to succeed AH needs to differentiate itself from its competitors.
IMO, making it more 'game' than 'sim' is not necessarily the way to go. There's lots of cheap WW2 games out there.
There is, as yet, no WW2 flight SIMULATION.
Just my $0.02
P.S.
I don't think I can recall one single post discussing the validity of various planes and vehicles in the game and their effect on gameplay.
Geez Lephturn, are you kidding? Or do you just not see what you don't WANT to see?
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 12-22-2000).]
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Being this a quite civilized thread, here it goes: I do not care the F4U-1C at all. Of course I get pissed off from time to time, but for me is funnier to have it than to have it hot. I don't fly that plane, and only occasionally the N1K2. And while I agree that Hispanos are VERY strong, I do not have the data to prove they are wrong. So, I have to cathegorize myself as a whiner when I complain about them. I only have opinions about the plane and the weaponry, and no time to dig for hard data. So, I have to deal with them, and trust Htc do their job.
OTOH, I think C-Hogs and N1K2 are valid, and in one sense, positive. They give the newbie the chance to kill something. This is a hard game to master, and the learning curve is long and steep.
I am not talking about validity in terms of reality check, for I have no data to back my opinions. Same for Hispanos. If I was to give my opinion in terms of a combat WWII simulation, I deeply miss engine management, gun jams, and barrell overheating modelled. But even before 1.05 is out I find this game the best I ever played. And AH community fun as the game itself. I pay UBB flamewarriors and dweebs no attention, most of the times. All in all, this game is the best my money can buy, and I am a Luxury Package player, yow know what I mean. Now if only I can have the Leather trim and A/C in my zeke, as the Luxury Package prospectus stated... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Pepe
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A game like this is dead in the water without the realism and its historical ties, I think that all the "nooo itll affect game plau if you make that realistic!" folks should go get some kinda fruity space sim and spend their days saving the planet from the 7 eyed death dwarfs from planet blagnarf or something that is geared twords "gameplay" me...I wanna get in my stang and splash some kraut aircraft and i want to know it is at least leaning twords the way it really was.
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Sorry but the 7 eyed death dwarfs were overmodeled!
NUTTZ
Originally posted by TheWobble:
A game like this is dead in the water without the realism and its historical ties, I think that all the "nooo itll affect game plau if you make that realistic!" folks should go get some kinda fruity space sim and spend their days saving the planet from the 7 eyed death dwarfs from planet blagnarf or something that is geared twords "gameplay" me...I wanna get in my stang and splash some kraut aircraft and i want to know it is at least leaning twords the way it really was.
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I agree with original post. I don't come here very often, but every time I do, some other plane is being discussed as 'uber'. (It now seems like it's the P-51D's turn). This is amusing, if nothing else.
I also think that criticism of HTC or of AH is not too popular here, valid or not. I like AH, but I don't like alot of things about it. I don't like the trim dials (or that trim stuff is not modelled right for some planes, i.e. the Bf109). I also don't like the numeric ammo counters. I would like to see HTC publish all the data they use to base the flight-models on - I genuinely think it would solve alot of the arguements about this, which seems to be a constant background noise (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) The word of any developer is not gospel truth, and more openess can only prolong the life of the game.
Now, are you guys going to get at me for what I've said, or nod sagely and keep calm...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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AFAIK PYRO said the 7 eyed death dwarfs will be perked. They did not become operational till 1946 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 12-22-2000).]
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Guys, I should have said "lately". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Yes originally there were lots of discussion about the 1C's inclusion in the plane set. Lately however, I have not noticed any discussion primarily about it's inclusion, most posts have been claiming it's guns are uber or it's FM porked. This is just the stuff that I have noticed or responded too, not saying there isn't any of that type of discussion.
In any case, what we should be paying attention to is what affect the scoring and perk system will have on planes like the N1k and CHog. Based on my understanding of how it will work, I'll get more points for keelin' in my D-25 Jug than I would in a CHog. I think the idea is for the scoring and perk system to help balance the arena out, and I think it will do that to some degree. This will give HTC a tool help balance the arena out a bit better, and that is a very good thing in my book. Lets see how the scoring and perk system impacts the play balance in the arena after a few tours.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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Hello everyone (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And IMO, Yeager; You're right on target in your first post. People SHOULD be able to post their feelings about AH, Realism vs. Gaminess, improvements they'd like to see, Or what tics 'em off. All without fear of the flaming repraisal. PROVIDED! Said posts don't open with a hearty: "YOU GUYS [or 'This Game'..] SUCK!!" (LOL!).
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As for my thoughts on Planesets, Vehicles that leap tall buildings, etc... I have given this alot of thought. And I'm well aware that if I had the only 'Thought-Guided', Bullet-proof, 900mph, F4U-'H'(howitser armed), with guided 'Fart-Bombs', and unlimited ammo; I'd still be the only pilot in AH that hasen't killed a B-17!
HOWEVER!... I truly believe that many of our fears would be lain to rest regarding Equality of gameplay, AND Historical Accuracy, If AH were to implement an Allies vs. Axis type of sim. NOT Nescesarily in the strictest sense, Just the planes and vehicles, Ships etc. If you think about it, Almost all the complaning about FM comes from situations where Planes are pitted against each other, that in some cases, shared the same basic design. And/Or fought alongside each other. Or concievably WOULD have, had the war gone on... (Consider the senario possibilities of that concept!).
Well, If you've read this... Aren't you glad I don't post a lot!? [LOL!]
Thanks for the ear, and the forum!
SALUTE!
Doc "DeMUTT" Hoover
"Skeleton Crew" sqdrn;
Commanding.
"Fly With Honour!"
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I think the MA is the wrong place to look for realism.
Unfortunately, AH doesn't have the planeset to provide realism in any arena. That is a major downer for me. Its hard to get historical with substitute aircraft. Any kind of mini-war attempt is halted at the start because of the planeset. Basically, the game dooms itself to an MA blastfest because of it.
Time to start thinking early-mid war. Time to start pumping out some of those aircraft for witch you already have tons of data. Please, I'm getting tired of having to lurk on the BBS waiting for "and the P-40 will be released with the next updated" to appear in the news section.
A frustrated gamer,
AKDejaVu
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Read Pyro's inteview. After 1.05 is out they are focusing on aircraft.
Aircraft, aircraft, aircraft. Adding aircraft.
-Westy
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I agree with Yeager.
I also want the Dora in the MA and not offered as a perk. I have told HT that more times than he wants to hear I'm sure.
Guys, this is the reality of AH.
This is a young sim....we are along for the ride with a group of developers that provide us with more updates and in general, more attention to our concerns than any other company I have paid my money to. Changes are being made and will continue to made as long as HTC makes a profit and can see a future. Will it ever be perfect..nope...will everyone be happy...nope...can you fly AH and find a niche for yourself and your style of play...hope so. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I don't know why most of you pay to fly AH, but for me, It's a great product which most of the time allows me some fun, which in my adult life I don't seem to have time for like I used to.
Try and have some patience and enjoy what we have...for a thirty dollar bill, this sim is a fine thing, and it will only get better.
In the meantime, the F4u1C remains my favorite aircraft to hunt and kill...thats how I deal with it. And if you were standing next to me when I castrate one, you would hear these words muttered under my breath..."Uber my prettythang" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Ltr
Ice
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Ive enjoyed reading these posts, thanks.
Jedi, they took out the cannon armed hog? smart move. Thanks for straightening me out.
Yeager
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I hope that this game has every plane WWII ever used on it eventually. Dweeby or not. They were all there. If the C hog was really this good than thats the way it was. I don't think it's as great as most people make it out to be on here. I fly the 38 most of the time. Most people don't fly the plane. I've shoot down about every kinda plane there is here in a 38. BTW I know I'm not a great pilot, but I was very good in AW. I got good buy flying the same plane over and over tell I figured it out. I think that in the right hands all of these planes are formitable. You get a guy that flies the Zero all the time and you will have a very hard time killing him in any of these planes. I think the Chog is a very good plane and good piloting makes it a great plane. As for the GV's we need all of them dweeby or not. It was something that pilots had to deal with in WWII. There were countless tank killer aircraft built on all side to deal with GV's. Any way what I'm trying to say is, dweeby is realative. How real do you want the sim to be. I'm a mechanical engineer and I've taken fluid dynamics and compressable flow classes and I couldn't tell you with out some complex math (and a main frame (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) if the plane are exactly like they we'er in real life. The point is are they close. I think they are close. I knew a man that flew F6F's and F4U's in WWII. From what I can tell the hog is close to what he described. He liked the F6F the best. We will see what thats like on here in 1.05. I took a ride in a B17 (the 909 if anyone knows the plane) and from what I can tell they got the model for it very close. I was a very powerful aircraft. Again I say all of the complaining is for not. Enjoy the game. Pick a plane you like and keep flying it tell you know it inside out. I would like to note I hate HO dweebs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I like a dog fight not a blast in the face. Shoot me down all day but dang I would like to dog fight. BTW HO's really happend in WWII read The Black Sheep by Greg Bouyington. So back to the reality thing. I guess I'll live with it cause it really happend. See you all up there. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ccrider
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I don't see why changing the scoring will do much. I see posts all the time by people bragging about about never looking at there score.
IMHO they should crank up the power of all the guns. The A8 was one of my favorite rides back in beta before the guns were weakened. You would expect the guns on a plane like the A8, p47, in fact, most of the planes, to do all the damage you need at 300 yards with a good burst. Its not the FM of the chog and the nik that's different. its the guns. More power from the others would increase our selection tremendously.
After you reach a certain skill level. This game becomes 90 percent hardware, and connection. I see this, big time, in H2H. If I host, I kill more people than cancer. Fighting the same guys when they are hosting, I do,just O.K.. We don't have WB packet loss problem, when it comes to guns. But in someone else,s arena you are maneuvering a split second behind where he really is. This makes getting a guns solution, in the other guys arena, tricky to say the least. When you do light him up it should do some damage. This all translates to the main arena, through the effects of connects and hardware.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 12-22-2000).]
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First of all... The WB Hog was a -4 and it was (and is) so undermodeled as to be useless.
Now... As to the "I just want realism" crowd.... roadkill. You don't want realism you want specific areas to be realistic and others not. You don't want to fly finger fours, perhaps the most important part of realistic WWII air combat. You want the cannon hog and niki removed for "numbers" issues but you certainly wouldn't like the stang to be restricted to the last few days of the tour. I call this "phony realism" it is a group that hides behind the "realism" skirts in order to shape things in a way that they like and to leave out the wishes of other players. They like to fly in a fantasy manner but condem others for doing the same.
yeager, your problem with the Hog is twofold... One, you still think you are in 1.03 and that doesn't work. Two, you have chosen a plane that is not a good arena opponent for a Hog (and shouldn't be). If you actually flew a Hog for a tour or two you would see what I mean. Most people find the Hog an easy target.
A lot of people sign on to fly a couple of hours in an arena that offers action and choice with as much parity as possible. There are scenarios and such for the "phony realism" crowd. Like a lot of guys I don't sign on to pretend to be a WWII pilot. I think that's silly. I like to fly simulated WWII planes and shoot down same.
lazs
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A bit strong there don't you think lazs?
You don't want realism you want specific areas to be realistic and others not.
Well DUH! I for one sure don't want to DIE if my plane goes down, and waiting on the runway for 5 mins for the engine to warm might be a bit much (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Of course some might like to see things a bit more realistic in certain areas. And the problem with that is ? .....
You don't want to fly finger fours, perhaps the most important part of realistic WWII air combat.
Lazs, are you gonna complain also that the Spit drivers don't fly in Vics? Or how about early-war US Navy iron? Should all Wildcat pilots be told that they HAVE to try to TnB with Zekes? No BnZ allowed until 1942 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Sorry, your argument makes no sense.
You want the cannon hog and niki removed for "numbers" issues but you certainly wouldn't like the stang to be restricted to the last few days of the tour.
Yup, bring in an RPS. Wanna restrict Stangs to the last few days of the tour? Fine by me. At least then we'd have a reason to see some early-war planes introduced (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I call this "phony realism" it is a group that hides behind the "realism" skirts in order to shape things in a way that they like and to leave out the wishes of other players. They like to fly in a fantasy manner but condem others for doing the same.
I only see one person offering condemnation here lazs. I can understand you want to defend the C Hog. After all, you have ALWAYS argued (on this board and others) that the Hog should do just about everything better than any other plane ever devised. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Although, I must admit it was nice of you to at least admit that the F4U-1C IS is fact a fantasy plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 12-22-2000).]
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The reason to add the early war planes is to make them available for scenarios' and for those that just want to fly something different. In AW they had a lot of the early war planes. It was fun to get in them and fly them now and then. Some were actually good planes if flown in there range of performance. The Hurricane was a very good dog fighter. The P-40 worked as long as you B&Z. The Wildcat was a very good flying plane just low on power. I know this isn't AW but I say again it's getting the relative performances of the plane close. In AW I think they had it "fairly" close. I would love to see mixture and prop control etc but I don't think they are critical to a good combat flight sim. I do think the more planes and other vehicles available the better. In the end this game in NOT intended to be "real". Axis vs Allied planes in Euro and Pac would be less fun in my opinion. This is like a what if game. What if this plane or that plane was put up to this plane or that plane. I would hate to be the US pilots early in the war. I read Boyingtons book. He was in the Marines before the war and joined the Tigers before the war started. Then he returned to US Marines after the war started. He said that US and, with the exception of the Spit to some extent, the British we're out classed by the Japan early on. But I still would like them all on here. It would be fun just to see a shark mouthed P-40 flying around. Again it not about prefect realism it's about combat in WWII equipment.
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Jekyll...
Lazs is a bit extreme.. but he isn't the only one with those sentiments.
I too grow weary of realism being used as needed in this forum. Its only used when it suits the argument of the day. Very little is realistic about this game. The flight model is the only thing that comes close.
There is very little HTC can do to promote realism in the MA because it is not controlled. As such, there is no accountability.. and no discipline. The problem isn't with the game, its with the participants.
Give us all the planes we can handle. Then give us some more. Let us fly them whenever we want. That is what I like to see in the MA.
I have ideas for realistic encounters, well beyond what the current scenarios provide... but that will have to wait until the above is filled.
One thing is for sure.. rolling planeset is a limitation. It is bad. It should be avoided. Dedication to certain aircraft should be allowed because that is what some people want and it doesn't dictate what others should fly.
People spend too much time worrying about what everyone else is doing... what they are flying... what they are shooting... where they are shooting from... how much they are shooting... when they bail... when they ditch... when they respawn... when they vulch... when they spam ch 1... when they do whatever the new pet peave of the day is. Get over it and play the fricking game.
AKDejaVu
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The only problem I have with F4U-1Cs is how bloody common they are. If I am flying anything remotely even in speed/climb I find them to be fairly easy kills. I just wish that they weren't my most common adversary. I see a lot of F4U-1Cs, N1K2-Js, Spitfire MkIXs and P-51Ds. I see a fair number of Bf109s, Fw190s and Typhoons but everything else is quite rare.
I hope that the new scoring system, in which points have real value because they can be traded in for powerful aircraft, will encourage the use of less popular aircraft because more points are scored with them. The fear I have is that the system will award the loner, I-fly-for-myself-everyone-else-on-my-side-be-damned-I'll-only-engage-you-if-I-have-5,000ft-of-altitude-on-you type of players too much. If that kind of mentality gets players more perk rides than the all-for-one-and-one-for-all mentality then I think this game is in for a world of hurt. Having a bunch of selfish players in the best aircraft will be no fun for the majority. Dying should be a penalty, but it shouldn't be such a huge penalty that being a self centered jerk will get you a perk ride that much more often.
Encouragingly, Pyro has said that they will rebalance the perk system as needed for gameplay.
We'll see how the next few versions go.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Taking punitive measures against the plane you might like to fly, sounds like a great way to get more people into the H2H arenas to me. Im all for it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
WB,s RPS system was a big reason I left there.
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Damn lazs,
I give up.
Yeager
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what yeager said, c hog ruined a great game the bbs were basicaly freindly befor now its 2 sides . they just want the stupid plain in the game and arent interested when you point its flaws out . such is life vote with you pocket book cause htc aint listening
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Some people around here need to get laid more often and not just by their left hands.
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Interesting discussion!
Yeager...good topic! A comment on this...
>>The closer it gets to recreating the real thing, the happier I am. I dont mean engine startup and oxygen discipline. I mean air to air combat manoevering, strategy and tactics.<<
I agree with what you are getting at. Just one observation. In RL, simulators are used to teach procedures for the most part...things like switchology, instrument maneuvers, radar and ECM work...all things that are not too 'visual' in nature.
So I smile a bit when the posts get into a 'sim vs game' discussion. Personally, I don't care. Most 'air combat sims' are games to me...lots of fun, but not too weighty!
With the mixed plane set in the MA, it seems these types of varying opinions will always be with us. But for now, that's the way AH is set up, so my vote is to live with it...have fun and don't sweat the small stuff!
One thing that makes me wonder...the ever-present mention of certain aircraft models. The Fw-190D, for example. Why the interest? Is it because someone just likes its looks? Or is it because it had great performance? If so, is not such a selection going in the direction of the Chog? Will this become a "My uber plane is OK, but your isn't" type of argument?
In any case...in AH as in RL...it ain't the plane, it's the pilot! My guess is the good pilots here will be good in any plane...and the poor ones will still be poor, no matter what they fly. Yes, the under-skilled Chog pilots will get their occasional YGBSM death ray kill...but so what?
Lazs...good points...maybe a little strong worded...but, not to worry! There's room here for everyone.
Andy
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Torque,
Left hand, Right hand...whatever.
I just wish those sumb*tches would leave the livestock alone!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I agree with what Yeager said about strategy and tactics. To me that's the meat and potatoes of gaming in general. I think maybe what Pyro was refering to in his comments was that there is some "Calvin and Hobbes" in each one of us. No matter how realistic the simulation becomes we still need to engage some imagination. I had some terrific dirt clod battles as a kid. We did not have all this computer stuff back then so we picked our battle field outside away from the eyes of our wary parents and fought our play wars. After the "war" was over it was back to regular life.
[This message has been edited by BBGunn (edited 12-23-2000).]
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It will be interesting to watch how the sim "evolves" now that most of the elements are in place for it to do all the things WB does, with only a few missing key planes to be added.
I'll bet almost everyone wants to see the inclusion of the early war planes, BUT once you do that, things will never be the same. You will find that many of the players favorite planes are things like Hurricanes and Emils and A6M2s. Great, you say, now they can fly their favorites. Only they can't, except as cannon fodder, because you'll soon see that "fair play" is not something the community at large is really interested in, at least not "voluntarily."
So once the early planes are here, you will be forced into an RPS of some kind. Maybe it will be daily plane intros, maybe an alternating early/late tour, who knows? But the early war fans will demand that they get a chance to fly their planes in an arena WITHOUT CHogs and Nikis. And the counter-arguments will sound very selfish, and, in the end, you'll get an RPS.
And then you'll be at the crossroads: either keep the main arena Spit vs Spit concept, or try something different. And you'll have two schools of thought on whether the "casual" gladiator arena is the way to go, or some sort of quasi-historical setup. And probably not enough players to make both systems work simultaneously. Unless iEN goes belly up of course (don't wish for something too hard--you might get it) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Interesting times ahead I reckon...
--jedi
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Ok jelyl and yeager look... The Phony realism is this... We are in a fantasy arena. WWII ac FM and gunsets are simulated as best they can be... No one is given orders and everyone is given a choice of whatever plane they want and there is a great deal of parity and balance between possible planes there is nothing at this time about any of them that is unbalancing. No one is asked/ordered to fly in any particular way for any particular purpose... The MA is like what 99% of WWII Pilots did... Got up there and "dogfite" other planes, even allies 1 on 1, testing their skills and machines. It's just that we get to shoot the guns at all the planes. So far so good I say. That's what i want in a sim first and foremost.
Now.... A bunch of crybabies don't like the way some guys fly or that their hero plane isn't a good low alt single plane dogfiter so they start ringing the "realism" alarm bell. "there were only 200 C Hogs" "The hog and nik use witchcraft" "There is too much action", "the planes turn when I try to shoot em" "they won't come up to 30K for a realistic fite"... These guys are shocked when a Corsair or nik outperforms a Mustang under 15K even if that is what they really did.
Now, on to cannon.. Maybe they didn't make many cannon hogs.... They didn't need too. 6 X 50 were considered devestating firepower. If they were (devestating) in the game, Then.... I would be using the D and not the C but for me... The fifties don't work that great. I would rather have em, with their extra ammo and all but.... Well, maybe some dispertion things will get sorted out and the whole problem will just go away.. Only 200 planes? Sheesh... look at some of the other planes we have and now they want the Dora of which I doubt many more than that ever got off a runway.
jekyl, anyone who brings up realism in the MA in anything other than FM's and gunnery is one of the "phony realism" set to me.... And if they do bring up FM's or gunnery then at least try to be "specific" and..... right.
And while I'm pissed.... ask me what I think of the idiotic "perk" plane idea.
lazs
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Well since I'm wound up... jedi.. you are of course correct. They are going to introduce late war planes oon a "perk" system.. High scoring pilots will be flying uber planes around in an otherwise parity filled arena. I suppose that they will introduce early war planes by a "reverse perk" system.... If you don't score enough points you will be forced to fly a P39.
I left WB because it wasn't fun anymore. Allies VS Axis 24/7 and the "historical" bent is not what I want in a "fun" game that i spend an hour or two at night on. I moved to AH as soon as two things happened.... WB went "historical" (and therefore boring, limiting, and bland) and... AH fixed the old 1.03 FM so that you could actually have some ACM...When AH goes that way (the way of WB) I will move on to the next fledgling game with good FM's and a lot of action.
I love history. I am not interested in re-creating it however. I don't believe that we can, given the resources we have as simmers... I think that the pale imitations that have been achieved so far are worse that nothing. I just want to kill something.
lazs
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over 700 doras
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My cat's breath smells like cat food.
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hmmmm, Funked.
My dog's breath smells like cat. This is getting interesting!
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I moved to AH as soon as two things happened....
Perhaps the best reason yet why AH should immediately move to an Axis-v-Allied arena and revert to the 1.03 FM's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I understand you much better now lazs. You want a flightsim loosely based on WW2 aircraft but which has no historical relationship with either the era or the actual war, in which all the aircraft YnB like crazy.
Hmmm wonder if Crimson Skies has a Corsair?
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Jekyll has hit that long proverbial nail squarley on the head.
Lazs is definately flying four 20mm cannon loosely attached to what can be considered a derivative of the wonderfully historic Corsair.
Lazs,
the 50s work quite fine by my book. Grab a 1D and show us how you fight!
Yeager (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Well Yeager, I have to admit that I have no real problem with the C-Hog at all.
But when lazs starts spouting about the 'phony realists', whilst in his heart of hearts he has NO interest in AH as a simulation (only as a game), well then I find it hard to let his comments pass.
It's the 'gamer' attitude, more than anything else, which I regard as a threat to Aces High's continuing existence. And I do really want AH to continue and to succeed. Unlike Lazs, I have no intention of just 'dropping' AH as soon as it becomes too historic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Think about it for a second.... if you like WW2 flight 'games', you've got a load of choices and competition... Air Warrior, Fighter Ace, Warbirds etc.
What are your choices if you are after a simulation?
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jekyl and yeager what the hell are you talking about? AH has nothing to do with "history"... AH is a WWII aircraft flight sim. History and the arena are like apples and oranges. Flight sims allways have been that way.
The arena is a condensed battlefield. Everyone in it has more flight time than the best WWII pilots and knows how to wring out every little bit out of their plane. Every person bouncing you is hartman or galland and shoots like beurling. Every one bounced evades like hartman or johnson..... Every plane is in perfect condition and the only thing anyone has to worry about is himself.
Whereas anything but basic ACM was a waste of time in the war.... Here, it works. If you evade long enough (not long really) you will have the guy shot off your tail or reach freindly and highly accurate ack.. Here, we have planes of all nations to choose from that have strengths and weaknesses that make for overall parity and balance... we have a plane suited to everyones personality.
All this is fine. Fair fights and great FM's with a good chance for some action and fun. Addmittedly, this low alt, condensed situation highlights some advantages of low alt, fast, good turning planes that were "historically" not as important perhaps.
Now, mix in "history".... What is that you guys really want? Why don't you tell us all how much you want to limit the action, choice, and skew the balance with your particular version of "history". Or, your particular shade of "phony realism". We know what we have now. Why don't you share with us your vision of "realism". Let's see what your idea of the ideal mix of practical arena, balance, and history is.
Oh, 700 Doras got airframe numbers.... not much more than 200 ever flew.
I guess that mostly tho... i want to know what it is you want.. It appears that you want to remove a couple of planes whos FM is spot on and which are not in the least unbalancing to most people.... Then, you appear to cheer the concept of "perk" uberplanes? U appear to want "realism" and "history" when both were just an endless series of unbalanced technical and numerical fights. But the Hog and niki are too much for you? You cry and cry but you have no ideas.... nothing to contribute but your wails and..... Your plea to "remove the ______ ".....(let's leave it open for the future eh?).
No, I'm not a WWII pilot and I don't play one on a sim.
lazs
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What do you want? What do you want? People keep asking this.
I want what every prop sim fan has ever wanted. Speed AND maneuverability. The Japanese came the closest to pulling off this magic trick. In a word, I want a Frank (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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I still don't see the problem with F4U/niki, and still think it's a mass hysteria/freeze when you see one symptom.
You guys have actually convinced yourself that you can do nothing against these planes and are dead on sight.
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Fatty,
I agree with you on the F4U/N1K2! I checked out the score stats and they don't seem to support all the claims.
Example from Tour 11 Stats:
- The P-51D has 692 kills and has been killed 791 times against the F4U-1C.
- The P-51D has 413 kills and has been killed 374 times against the N1K2.
- Thunder has 19 kills and has been killed 6 times in the P-51D against the F4U-1C.
- Thunder has 12 kills and has been killed 4 times in the P-51D against the N1K2.
I seem to have the hardest time against the 109G-10 then any other. I is the REAL Uber Plane LOL! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I think the pilot has the biggest impact on the fight! I hope everyone flies there own plane, flies it there own way, and learns what works for them. This last sentence is not a comment about this thread or anyone posting here. One thing I have noticed about the better pilots... They don't whine and make excuses when they get killed! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Salute
Thunder
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OK lazs.... here goes. I'm typing slowly because I can tell it's gonna take time for you to comprehend what I am saying (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Now, mix in "history".... What is that you guys really want? Why don't you tell us all how much you want to limit the action, choice, and skew the balance with your particular version of "history". Or, your particular shade of "phony realism". We know what we have now. Why don't you share with us your vision of "realism". Let's see what your idea of the ideal mix of practical arena, balance, and history is.
Taking your rant point, by point.
How much do I want to limit your action, choice etc? Not at all. You wanna fly an F4U1-C until your arms drop off? Go for it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And I've already spoken at length about the issues I would like to see incorporated into AH. They're issues like sun glare, aircraft type only icons within 2000 yds, realistic pilot capabilities and fatigue etc. Nothing TOO dramatic, wouldn't you say? Now maybe this IS "phony realism" .... you decide. All I would like to see is the conferring of an advantage to flying smart. Instead of just boring in on the nearest enemy con - plan the engagement to be upsun. Instead of letting fly as soon as the icon registers '400' - encourage driving in close for the kill. Instead of just 'pull on the pole until you puke' - encourage energy-efficient and smooth flying.
Is THAT too much for you to comprehend? Is all that TOO much realism for you to handle?
So let me just say this. It seems that YOU are the person with the problem here. You find someone who disagrees with you and suddenly they are labelled 'phony realists'.
Vaguely reminiscent of the people who cry 'racist' whenever someone comes out to argue against some of the PC roadkill. I never said I wanted to restrict your plane choice .... YOU were the one who brought up the idea of an RPS.
And why oh why did you bring that up about the dora numbers? Have I ever mentioned anything about the 190D-9?
The only good thing to come out of this is the knowledge that as soon as AH becomes too much for you to handle - you'll be off to somewhere else.
And that can only be a good thing.
P.S. I for one don't want to see ANY of the planes removed from Aces High. But you already knew that lazs, didn't you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Jekyll has 11 kills and has been killed 2 times against the F4U-1C.
Jekyll has 20 kills and has been killed 6 times against the N1K2.
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 12-25-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 12-25-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 12-25-2000).]
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Well now...this is getting pretty interesting!
I think both sides have some good points to make...it's a shame it has gotten a bit testy.
Jekyll has mentioned a few things that would make the game play more 'immersive'...things that pay off to the folks willing to invest the time in a little strategy. This is good.
Lasz, on the other hand, seems more interested in playing the game in a "slam, bam, thank you, ma'am" manner. He sounds like he's using the game as a quick bit of fun whenever he feels like letting his hair down. No big investment in time or tactics...just a good thrash and then back to the real world. This, too, is good.
Shouldn't there be room for both views? I think so...and I think most, if not all, of you do too. The problem comes when someone seems to be wanting to take things away from the game, rather than adding to the overall game environment. As a rule, this is usually bad, and I would hope everyone could agree on that.
Game...sim...where does one end and the other start? I'm not sure I could say...or if I tried to, I'd have to use my RL experience as a guideline, and that would result in the sim proponents getting a burr under their saddles!
Personally, I'd much prefer individual arenas where the aircraft are specific to their era. And then implement kill removal...that's how we did it in real life...combat or peacetime training. Get shot and you're done for the day! Kill removal tends to make folks a whole bunch more cautious!
Andy
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EEEEEK Andy... Kill removal will not exist ever in day to day play in these arena sims. If it did the better players would get more for their $30 than the rookies +)
Scenarios give you that stuff. Impose it on yourself by all means though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Some features which permit immersion I like, sunglare, cloud layers etc. Some i don't.. engine management.. a feature like that if forced upon the player would seriously cripple Aces growth. Make it a client side option sure (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Some players don't have 2 or 3 hours at a sitting to enjoy the game. The slam bam approach maybe all they can hope for. The people like Jekyll who have the time and wish to fly smart, have alot of slam bammers to feed on, I dunno what the problem is there. Does fighting smart change if the player you are fighting is pulling til he pukes? NO! (and no u can't insert HO whine here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) )
I've seen the illeetist crap before, and I am seeing it here as well, wake up!! Its your $30 and its my $30, I'll enjoy how I spend my money my way, just do the same and we can all just suffer from big grins (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
AKskurj
[This message has been edited by SKurj (edited 12-26-2000).]
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Can't resist.
Realism is one of those words that has several different meanings. Some of you guys are talking past each other.
One meaning is Technical Realism. This means that each plane performs as closely as possible to it's real-life model. Gun dispersion, E retention, physics, everything.
Another meaning is Tactical Realism. This means that the planes are employed as they would have been in real life. This gets into plane sets and mix, tactics, strategy, and the like.
As we all know, there are several on-line WWII prop sims out there. Each strives for varying levels of accuracy in both Technical and Tactical realism.
FA, for example, tries for tactical realism, by forcing players to choose a country and then limiting their choices to that countries' planes. But FA disregards technical accuracy, because the players there don't want to be bothered with pesky things like the laws of physics.
I've only played WB a few times, but it sounds like WB tries for both Technical and Tactical realism.
AH is the best sim I've tried for Technical Realism. The flight model and the attention to detail in AH are just far superior to any other current attempt to model the physical behavior of WWII planes.
However, AH has zero Tactical Realism, because there are no COUNTRIES! Without countries, and the limits that imposes on plane sets, any discussion of realism in the context of tactics, plane mixes, etc is a waste of time and breath. It's irrelevant how many CHOGs would be flying in a historical WWII battle, when you are flying a game where a P51 can wing for a FW190, or an Me109 can escort a B17.
Now I personally don't advocate changing to a country arena. I enjoy hopping from plane to plane too much. But I accept that this makes historical accuracy impossible in the tactical sense. However, I think most of us share a common desire to see technical realism maximized. If AH ever wanders away from constantly striving for technical realism, I'll find another game.
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Does fighting smart change if the player you are fighting is pulling til he pukes?
Umm well when fighting planes which had mechanical linkages to the control surfaces ..... yes, it does! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hehe, get rid of the friggin' "AHHcons"
and we'll find out what's overmodelled,
Realism? you want realism? fine, set up a system that tells you where you're going today, and what you're doing. Then let the intel be hosed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Myself, I find the planes aren't the issue, the issue is there is no penalty for being stupid, or braver than any sane man,Will it change? not for the forseeable future, will folks continue to prolong the debate? Duh.
Happy Holidays to all of ya foul-mouthed,evil tempered, reference-guide toting flying s.o.b.s,keep the shiny side up.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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jekyl.. none of the things you have mentioned would bother me in the least. Well, I don't want so much sun that it gives ya a headache like the first WB sun did. Adding perk planes and calling it "realistic" does bother me. I want as much parity as possible and I think the current plane set (including the nik and C Hog) has it. Oh, can't most of those things be adjusted in a scenario arena anyway?
I think what we have here is that you want tactics/patience to be a skill and I want ACM to be a skill. Maybe there is some crossover but we both want the game weighted in one direction or the other.
Historicaly, tactics did weigh heavily but.... They didn't fly in an arena and they didn't have the stick hours or comfort of home while flying and they didn't do it for "fun". If they did, they would probly use a whole lot more ACM. Just like they did in mock dogfites with their buddies.
Personally, I have the patience of a crack addict. If I don't engage something in 10 minutes or so I get bored and go do something fun. Maybe your idea of fun is influenced by the small number of players in the arena when you fly? Killing something with a perk plane or killing someone who is in the bathroom is no fun for me. An acm filled dogfite is.
What I have said I would like is an area in the arena in the "canyon world" for early war planes.. Three uncapturable fields or resetable fields that the late birds can't easily get to. Twisty turny early war planes in canyons till ya puke... Get bored with that (or just wore out) and simply click on a late war field and relax a little. Choice is a good thing. Heck, you may never have to see me again jekyl.
jekyl, you have chosen the part of air combat history that you like.... The sneaking up and blowing an unwary opponent away and then zooming off and I.... Have chosen the part I like... The melee... The huge, confusing, cotton mouth, whirlwind of a melee that strains SA and ACM to the limit. Both are historically accurate but an arena that people pay to play in needs a lot more of the latter than the former to work IMO.
lazs
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Agreed Yeager...
I am a CHOG driver on occasion, a LANC driver on occasion, a gv driver-rarely, and a NIKI driver-mostly! I also frequent most other planes, on occasion. In a NIKI, I hate a YAK-especially a high one, most spits, a CHOG, a panzer, a FLAK, and the list goes on. But isn't that why we pay the bucks to play here? I am A SERIOUS Dweeb, but I pay for the priviledge to fly MY choice of plane. I am really liking, the FW A5 of late. BUT....I pay for that too.
So when folks like Vulcan and FEIxxxx talk trash, I feel an obligation to defend my right to fly here too. So, bottom line, I am a dweeb.....an honest-fullfare-paying dweeb. Plane diversity is good. Thank you HTC for allowing us - less than average folks, to enjoy this SIM too.
K-KEN
http://www.cutthroats.com/ (http://www.cutthroats.com/)
(http://www.cutthroats.com/art/buttons/on_patch8Xs.gif)
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Surprisingly enough lazs.. we aren't as far apart as you might believe.
So lets sort this out once and for all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I have hopes that the perk system might at least promote the use of a wider range of aircraft than we see in the arena at the moment.
I actually want BOTH tactics and ACM to be rewarded skills (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Some guys are strong on tactics, some on ACM. At present, its the guys who are strong on ACM who hold all the cards IMHO. I'd like to see a balance between the two ... the guys who are prepared to think before they dive in to a fight get rewarded for thinking ... in the same way as I'd like to see guys with good ACM skills be rewarded for developing those skills.
And actually lazs.. although I do my share of sneaking up and blowing away the unwary .. I much prefer the dogfight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
P.S. I think the 'canyon world' idea is terrific.. so long as it was bounded by 50k mountains. Imagine the carnage if a P51H or Bearcat managed to sneak inside.
Regards (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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=357th Pony Express=
Aces High Training Corps
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 12-27-2000).]
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Imagine the carnage that a Bearcat or 51H can wreak on the current plane set. Ugly eh? No one would be dumb enough to allow these planes in the same arena as our current plane set would they?
I dissagree that the arena is weighted too heavily towards ACM... It is an arena and thinking before you engage is an advantage every time in the current arena. To weigh it any other way would, IMO, mean that there would be less action.... Way less action.
I'm glad you like my "canyon world" area in idea as used in the current arena. The only other options for early war planes are crappy... RPS has been tried and not really liked in other sims. If you have a seperate arena (that's been tried also) one or the other is deserted...I suppose they could reverse perk em..... low points and ya fly a P39.... Allmost as idiotic as "perking" unbalancing planes. Sheesh..... give me the early war "area" to hide in.
U wouldn't need many planes in the canyon world area to have fun. 25k mountains would make sure that late war planes didn't have enough fuel to fight plus..... I don't think they would do that hot in the canyons anyway.
lazs