Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Tac on July 21, 2000, 12:40:00 PM
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Probably will get flamed for this *sigh*
IMHO, HTC is wasting its efforts to create a realistic sim by putting superguns on the BUFFS.
If the buffs had .50's as guns, then they ARE .50's. PERIOD. Increasing their damage just so that a few whining buff pilots can solo in a bomber is incredibly dumb, as it spoils the realism of the game.
I have seen bombers go AFTER fighters now and WINNING. That ring a bell as to what the problem is here????
Either make the buff guns BE .50's or make all other .50's on all other fighters be as powerfull as the buffs (now aint that a stupid alternative? That's how dumb the super .50's on buffs are!).
If buff pilots want to solo, that's their decision. They would be wise to take a gunner along, but this bull of having a single bomber killing half a dozen fighters with little effort is absolutely ridiculous and NOT realistic.
3 b-17's in formation have more than enough firepower to ward off the attacking fighters at their normal alt.
Just give the buff gunners twice the ammo and be done with it.
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Well, not going to start anything here, but I experienced this a lot from the other side. Yesterday I was merrily flying along with swedish when a Spit attacked us. It was a good slicing attack, I heard two pings and looked at the tower screen, swedish lost 3 engines. The Spit died too, but he killed a buff and rendered another nearly unflyable.
I'm not fond of people who use buffs for base defense, but they are certainly not overmodelled. And to attack fighters successfully you'd have to get a gunner and risk your plane and the live of the crew on board. And how could a whatever how aggressive buff fight down a pair of fighters that's flying wing?
I'd suggest to take on your own advice and don't go up in a fighter solo. How sounds that?
Az
381st BG (H)
(http://www.link-goe.de/~m.henze/images/381bg.gif)
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Azrael, Facts are Facts, Buff's MGs are overmodelled. I've been in the tail gun seat in a B17 and got 1.8K hits more than one time, more than 2 and more than 3 times.
Try to do that in a P51.
Ackstarring is the DWEEBEST thing since 35K buffing in AH and Spitfire HO dives.But at least a SpitIX could HO a plane 10K under him, and a B17 could bomb from 35K (well if the bombardier doesnt die frozen during the flight). But in WWII NO DAMNED B17 WAS USED LIKE SOME DWEEBS USE HERE!...
ANd scrambling in a B26 to hunt down P47s...lol that is a thing to laugh at or to yell at.
Like it or not, if here a B26 can turn with a Fw190A8 (and believe me IT TURNS with a Fw190A8 in a flat turn) and it has MGs able to hit up to 1.8K then sorry but something IS VERY WRONG HERE!!!!
Ah az, About the Spitfire killing one and rendering other useles...<Cough cough>...
Hispanos...
<Cough Cough>
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I believe Pyro has said that 50's is 50's no matter what plane/vehicle they are in.
Easy to test. Taxi a B-26 up to a field structure and blast away with the nose guns. See how many rounds it takes to destroy the structure. Repeat with P-38 (using only the 50's). Just for fun, repeat with M-16.
popeye
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Originally posted by popeye:
I believe Pyro has said that 50's is 50's no matter what plane/vehicle they are in.
I dont talk about ammount of damage I talk about accuracy.Buff guns are mortal up to 1.5K and very dangerous up to 1.8K. And the accuracy at short ranges for the gunners is simply incredible. If there was such accuracy in WWII then no LW pilot would have survived that kind of fire.
That means that buff MGs are OVERMODELLED. In damage maybe not. In accuracy for sure, yes.
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I have always been under the impression that guns on buffs are afforded a greater range for state of play.......the lethality per round is the same, just a longer range
Yeager
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/yeager.gif)
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 07-21-2000).]
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"The B-17G has 1992 kills and has been killed 2685 times."
popeye
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It is an often discussed topic and just like the title of this forum, it is a gameplay issue.
The buff guns and the buff "hi-performance" are deliberate choices that they made to make flying buffs a viable choice for some players. If you had historically correct guns and aircraft performance, solo buffs would be "easy pickins" in the MA.
There are a lot of old posts on this situation. I am not agreeing with it or disagreeing with the position taken. Just pointing out that it was done for "playbalance". Those who have been around a while remember how easy it was to kill a buff at first. Then it got way hard, then it was changed again, etc. etc.
Playbalance. Too easy to kill = no buff drivers interested. Too hard to kill = no fighter pilots willing to engage and buffs rule. It's an HTC judgement call.
Ram, once again I offer anyone the challenge to show me something (in the TA) that the <cough> Hispanos can do that the Mausers CAN NOT do in the air to air mode. Film required, hit flashes counted and the Mausers get 10% more flashes to compensate for their admitted RL lesser leathality.
In other words, if you can take off a buff wing with 10 rounds of Hispano, I bet you can take off the wing with 11 hits with a Mauser.
Now, on the tank thing, I agree. I wish HTC would explain the difference or investigate so we could put THAT issue to rest as well.
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I don't mind. I do think the endurance of the buffs have been upped, meaning it takes more to kill one. This past week the Rooks have made a routine habit of flying 35K buffs to Knight HQ and knocking it out. I have tried different a/c to counter the move (and I am not a newbie (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)), and find that at that alt, let 'em go. They will tag you with the guns for sure, and you will need multiple passes to kill them- which are nigh impossible to make at that alt. In short, they will get you long before you get them.
It's all good, though. If the 3-5 dedicated "let's blind the Knights infinitum" guys are having fun, let them do it. I might even nuisance raid their HQ in return (in fact, already did (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)). Radar is overrated anyway, and they'll soon grow bored making that long trek. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Whew! Got off track! I think the buff endurance has gone up, not the lethality of their guns. You have to stay in their cone of fire too long to get a quick kill, and if the gunner is any good, you will lose vital parts in all but the most expertly effected attacks.
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Originally posted by popeye:
"The B-17G has 1992 kills and has been killed 2685 times."
popeye
That sums it up very nicely indeed.
Reminds me of the motto I live by in my profession....In God we trust, All others bring Data.
Cobra
(I hate it when facts cloud the issue)
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Hi
I fly a lot of buffs and like anyone who flies a particular plane a lot they get used to its good and bad bits. In other words stick a newbie in a B17 and the chances are you'll get an easy kill. Stick an experienced buff pilot in a B17 then it's going to be a hard kill. I get more than my fair share of kills in the B26 but I would say that 90% are very poor approaches or VERY PREDICTABLE approaches - if you know what he's going to do then you can turn the tables! Again, all pilots do this whether they fly a 109 or a B17. The amount of planes I've shot that are right on your six is just unbelievable - but some do make it and they often get awarded the kill as the bomber will fall apart a lot quicker that a fighter.
If the attacking pilot takes his time then he'll kill the buff, some approaches are very, very difficult to defend from and if there is more than one plane attacking you then THEY must be pretty poor or inpatient if they don't down you (you can only target one plane from the turret, though I try to flick between them and put them off).
I would like to fly in formations but how often is that possible?
Another thing I have noticed or it just might be me is that the trajectory/convergence seems to change every major update. Anyone else experienced that?
Regards
'Nexx'
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Originally posted by popeye:
I believe Pyro has said that 50's is 50's no matter what plane/vehicle they are in.popeye
Semi-correct Popeye. There is no difference between the damage the bomber's .50s do and the fighters. They both use the same gun. However, the same cannot be said for vehicles. Vehicles use the heavy barrel M2 instead of the aircraft M2. This weapon has a lower rate of fire but uses a 45" barrel instead of the 36" barrel on the aircraft version. This results in slightly higher muzzle velocity and striking power.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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All I can say, is I am a pretty decent pilot. But I can easily get 3-4 kills per mission in a B17. Not so often do I get that in a fighter (to say the least).
I do have a solution I would reccomend: Increase recoil dispersion from buff guns. Make it harder for them to maintain a water hose stream on the fighters. That's what I would like to do.
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Pyro,
>There is no difference between the damage
>the bomber's .50s do and the fighters. They
>both use the same gun.
I seem to remember HT stating that the Buffs had a longer range on thier guns to compensate for lag when fighters are approaching their six.
I can accept this. However, if this is true for all the guns, is it still fair when they are firing to the side, up, down, or to the front? If the extra range is still in effect when firing at these other angles then the buffs enjoy a quite signifigant range advantage overall.
That may be justified for play balence, but its certainly something to think about.
Is the extra range only on the tail gun?
Regards,
Wab
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AKWabbit I hashed that one out with Pyro a long time ago. Even invited him on as a gunner on me B17 at one point in the 'great .50 debate' one night in the arena.
The .50s all have the same MAX range (bullets disappear around 1.6-1.7k, or the tracers have burnt out or something). The guns on the bombers have an extended max EFFECTIVE range, and this is to counter the netlag problem. .50s on fighter are lethal out to 900yd-1k. On the buffs out to 1.5-1.6k. I have a film from just after the gravity bug was fixed where I took down another B17 from 1.4-1.5k (.50s should be lethal to 1600yds, there is a recorded kill at 1600yds using .50s). Took damn near every round in my bird, but I got him.
With out that boost to max effective range a fighter could sit at d800 on his FE (d1.2 on B17's FE) and plink the bomber apart w/o fear of dying because netlag was keeping him outside the B17's guns effective range.
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P-47 can hit till 1.5k at least (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I did once chase Typhoon and as I were smartened enough from ground attack, I tried to shoot it from 1.3k ahead of me and bit faster.. HIT! and more hits!
P-47 can strafe ground targets also from 1.5k at least. (I did take acks like that.. quick burst from extreme range and break.. ack dead - just as they start firing at me, ill fire at them.. I also had once M16 very close to ack, which appeared 1.4k after I were breaking off and i got ack killed)
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Cave then explain me how a B26 was able to hit me at 1.8k 3 months ago. THe post is here somewhere, the guy ADMITED having hit me at 1.8K
My left P38's engine died by ONE ping of his MGs (he later admited than he never SAW the flash of the impact that killed that engine) while I was performing a PERFECT low-climb-up-to-the-belly attack on his B26.The ping was obtained at 800 yards (his lecture of the distance, not mine) To track my 38 in that situation and with that move was a remarcable feat because I didnt stay stop for even a second, and there was a BIG ammount of lead involved (coming from the belly I fired a short burst that damaged badly his wing then as I emerged on his tail gunners' arc of fire I broke to a side and barrel rolled going down. I repeat the move after that, breaking to the other side...one ping engine bye bye)
To HIT a plane in SUCH move is nearly impossible, at least I dont see how can you predict the ammount of lead on a constantly changing aiming solution. So IMO it is EASIER to hit from a buff than from a fighter...Damnit THE GUY DIDNT SAW PINGS ON ME!...not even a SINGLE FLASH!
I tried to follow him with one engine. Of course at 25K that was quite impossible, but the guy kept firing usual bursts to me (he was quite surprised that I was falling behind because,as I said before, he didnt know he had pinged me), he saw pings at (ATTENTION: 1.8K!!!!) pings that BTW damaged a MG of my P38 (so please dont tell me that those pings dont do damage).
I had film on it, I saw it again a couple of days ago when I was seeing and classifying films because I have more than 300. Sad as it is I deleted it (still have to classify some 150 films...ARG!).But you can search that thread and read what was posted there...you'll see that my story is true.
Now come and tell me again that bullets dissapear at 1.7K please...
Because I'll laugh quite a lot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-21-2000).]
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I flew buffs almost exclusively, and I've never, EVER, seen one of my bullets hit at a range past 1.7. I have pinged cons at 1.7 on maybe 2 or 3 occasions, and I wasted alot of ammo trying. I usually open up at 1.5 or 1.4 on in. On a slowly closing con, I'll fire a burst at 2.2 or so just to let him know I'm not asleep at the wheel, and he'd better think twice about attacking me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) As for d1.8 pings, I'll only believe them when I see them. If it did happen, it was most likely an isolated incident with a little warping or netlag involved.
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Cave,
>With out that boost to max effective range
>a fighter could sit at d800 on his FE (d1.2
>on B17's FE) and plink the bomber apart w/o
>fear of dying because netlag was keeping
>him outside the B17's guns effective range.
Yes, I understand that. And I think that is not an unreasonable compromise…for the most part.
My point is the following:
Lets take two extreme examples (all other cases will fall somewhere in between).
1. Case 1 - A fighter is approaching a buff from dead six.
2. Case 2 - A fighter is approaching a buff head-on.
In case 1 the added effective range makes sense because the effects of net lag could confer an unfair advantage on the fighter because he might be reading a shorter range than the FE of the buff thus allowing him to score hits why still out of range for the buff.
In case 2 however, the effects of net lag don’t provide an advantage for either party. In this case there should be no increased effective range. To do so would give an unreasonable advantage to the buff gunner, especially considering the incredibly stable firing platform (compared to having to maneuver the whole fighter to aim).
The max effective range for all other angles between dead six and head-on should prolly be interpolated proportionally.
A further point to consider:
The effects of net lag on who has the advantage is a function of the latency of the network AND the relative velocities of the buff and fighter. What I mean by this is that a fighter who is closing slowly on a buffs six will enjoy less of an advantage from net lag than a fighter closing at high speed. A fighter at equal speed on a buffs six creates no lag advantage at all. So, if I am in a fighter climbing up to a buff six in a desperate attempt to stop him from bombing my field for the 6th time that day, I will prolly reach a point where my speed is equal to or even less than that of the bomber as I hang there on a prop. Therefore I would not have any net lag advantage to offset his greater max effective range. In reality, this would confer a huge advantage to the buff as he can pound my wallowing fighter mercilessly at a range that I have no possibility of scoring hits in return.
Also, high speed buffs like the B26 are able to narrow the differences in velocities between themselves and pursuing fighters by keeping their speed high (maybe even diving a bit before the attack). At nearly equal speeds, there will be little or no lag advantage for the fighter. The buff however still enjoys the full benefit of his max effective range advantage.
Maybe a compromise would be to allow the buffs their greater max effective range on the tail gun only, but make all their other guns the same as everyone elses.
$0.02,
Wab
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Still like my solution better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
See above
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Originally posted by AKWabbit:
2. Case 2 - A fighter is approaching a buff head-on.
I dinnae remember this coming up in the "great .50 debate". But netlag is still present even in a HO situation. This why when in a HO situation in fighters you open up at long range, the bandit is actually closer than reported on your FE because of netlag. I do remember this being talked about a few times when people talking about the best way to HO.
A further point to consider:
The effects of net lag on who has the advantage is a function of the latency of the network AND the relative velocities of the buff and fighter. What I mean by this is that a fighter who is closing slowly on a buffs six will enjoy less of an advantage from net lag than a fighter closing at high speed. A fighter at equal speed on a buffs six creates no lag advantage at all. So, if I am in a fighter climbing up to a buff six in a desperate attempt to stop him from bombing my field for the 6th time that day, I will prolly reach a point where my speed is equal to or even less than that of the bomber as I hang there on a prop. Therefore I would not have any net lag advantage to offset his greater max effective range. In reality, this would confer a huge advantage to the buff as he can pound my wallowing fighter mercilessly at a range that I have no possibility of scoring hits in return.
This just isn't so. Fly formation with one of your squadmates and ask them what range they see you at. I've done this many times. I'll be parked in perfect formation 25yds off lead's wing, but he sees me at 85-95yds. Our speeds match, but we still have netlag. And it seems the greater the distance the more netlag plays a role in the distance reported.
Once back in the beta tour Redstar and I played with this a bit. We were both pinging around 150 to the server w/ no loss. We took off and formed up, him flying my wing. He said he was in fingertip formation at a distance of 20yds on his FE and I saw him out at almost 100yds. Redstar ease up til he looked like he was in fingertip formation on my FE at about 20yds, and he said on his FE he was infront of me.
For the buffs flying in a straight line I dinnae mind them having the extended effective range from any angle. When attacking a buff the idea is to come in at an angle the gunner can't track and take out the buff. We can manuever the fighters to avoid hits, but it's kinda hard to move the buffs around.
::shrug::
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Cave,
>But netlag is still present even in a HO
>situation. This why when in a HO situation
>in fighters you open up at long range, the
>bandit is actually closer than reported on
>your FE because of netlag.
Yes, I understand that. But this holds true for both buff and fighter. Neither side derives a consistant advantage due to the lag. Its a wash. There will always be lag on the internet. Of course. What I was talking about was lag advantage. In HO, there is no lag advantage to justify the buffs max effective range advantage.
>This just isn't so. Fly formation with one
>of your squadmates and ask them what range
>they see you at. I've done this many times.
>I'll be parked in perfect formation 25yds
>off lead's wing, but he sees me at 85-
>95yds.
There will always be lag of some type on the internet.
You might be right about equal speeds. However, I do know the lag advantage will be greater when I am closing at high speed on their six and less when I am closing slowly on their six or not at all. It may never actually be zero. But when I'm slow my lag advantage is less but their max effective range advantage stays the same. And certainly when I approach HO its isn't fair that they can start hitting me 500yds before I can start hitting them.
This may all be a matter of play balence and thats fine.
I just think that giving all their guns a signifigant range advantage might be an over simplified solution.
Regards,
Wab
[This message has been edited by AKWabbit (edited 07-21-2000).]
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The great gun debate......my understanding is that the guns were not more powerful and had greater reach. I assumed that when the buff opens up at 1,8k and I am closing at probably 100-200mph with the bullet stream that we basically merge at approx. 900-1k from the b17. That being said I'll back away and let those who know what they are talking about take over (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Geez, I wish my .50's did that much damage then. When I gun in buff with top turret only, (so only 2 .50's are firing, not the otto losers) I ping a plane once or twice and BOOM.
Trying that with a fighter... takes a nice little spread of 4 .50's. Even on HO situations, and SPECIALLY in HO situations, my 4 .50's do NOT whack a fighter down like the 2 .50's on the buffs.
That being said, I am left mighty confused! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
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Now that I've got time in an M16 I can throw in what I've seen/done. Yesterday I nailed a N1K closing at 1.5k, only took 400 rounds of .50 cal fire. I fired 400 rounds, hit mostly on his right wing and blew it off. Here's the clincher; I actually WATCHED 30 some-odd hit flashes on him. 30 some-odd direct hits with quad M2HB .50 calibers and his wing was blown off.
Now to this morning: I hit another N1K, this time at 1.1k and WATCHED only 15 hit flashes or so. Guess what happened...go on, guess.
Nope, blew off BOTH wings plus his vert stab. Total rounds fired? 140.
As a contrast, I blasted a Panzer with .50 cals in an M16. Took 500 rounds, most of 'em direct hits, but I killed him. Blew of a track first then BOOM! Now here's another funny part; this morning I hit a Panzer 5 times with HE ammo....no damage. How do I know? I asked him on channel 1. He heard all 5 pings, but no damage was reported.
Either AH is going buggo or the Net was bad this morning. I know the Net wasn't bad, cause everyone was flying nice with no warps.
And the guy who I shot 5 times has a cable modem, he said "No problems on my end, yours?". I had no problems either.
Seems the guns, damage, and hardness need a bad re-work. Maybe change around the dispersion a bit too; not much, just a bit.
Flakbait
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lol didnt pyro say the buff and fighter 50s are the same lol lol lol lol ahhem roadkill. and once again roadkill . do you play the game pyro?
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I know that I have tried to hang 1400 to 1600 yards off a buff to get him to waste all his ammo, or distract him so someone else can make an attack, and have been shot down numerous times.
Here is what I do.
I see a buff.
I dive on the buff.
I keep my E and try to get a postion where if the buff starts shooting at someone else I can dive in and hit him while he is distracted or draw their fire.
Usuall right at the 9 o'clock position and have been trounced many times doing this.
And I say let the buffs keep the range, up the hardness, just take away the ability to turn with fighters. Part of the reason historic attacks don't work is that a B-17 can dodge a bounce just as well as a Spit can.
People in B-26s will drop their bombs and start to turn fight with fighters.
Something needs to change.
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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In Bob Hoover's book, he detailed an episode where he rescued a B-26 that had ditched on a beach somewhere in Italy because the pilot ran out of fuel or something. In order to get it off the ground, he had to strip everything he could out of it, place metal temporary runway material on the beach, and carry as little fuel as possible. I guess the reason for this was the the takeoff distance available was something like 1000 feet. Anyway, after all was said and done, he reached his base, and a P-40 was in the pattern. Bob Hoover was dogfighting this B-26 against the P-40 and actually coming out ahead!! Keep in mind this was a stripped down Marauder with very low fuel, and a very high time pilot. Still the aircraft must not have been that much of a slouch! Also, as for being able to dodge a bounce in a B-17 every bit as well as a Spitfire, that's absolutely not true. The spit can pull around 8 G's and the Buff breaks apart at around 4 or 5. Having said that, sure a Buff can make a tracking solution for a fighter a LITTLE more difficult, but not that much so. In wartime situations they really didn't dodge beause they were in tight formations, and dodging would screw up the formation AND increase incidents of collision. But hey, you can't tell me that some guy flying a B-17 in 1943 that got seperated from his formation didn't try to mess up someone's shot by dodging a little.
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Originally posted by typhoonc:
But hey, you can't tell me that some guy flying a B-17 in 1943 that got seperated from his formation didn't try to mess up someone's shot by dodging a little.
One thing is to dodge "a little" in a B17 or a B26, other thing is to turn fight with a P47 or a Fw190...
Dont know what but for sure something is REALLY screwed in a B26's FM if it is able to turnfight with a P47D30. And I've seen it happen ,and not only once.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-23-2000).]
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This is intended simply as anecdotal information on the B-26, not to validate or invalidate the AH B-26 FM. The information does have an impressive pedigree, though.
From "I Could Never Be So Lucky Again", by James H. Doolittle, ISBN0-553-29725-2.
"On one occasision, I took Maj. Paul W. Tibbets up for a ride. Paul was one of the pilots who had flown Teneral Eisenhower down to Gibraltar and was partial to the B-17 because he felt the role of the B-26 as a medium bomber would be limited. He wanted to fly the big ones, but I wanted him to see what the Marauder could do. Paul tells what we did in his memoirs:
'I should have suspected that Doolittle knew more about the B-26 than he admitted when he said, "It's just another airplane. Let's start it up and play with it."
That is exactly what we did. We got in the air and circled to 6000 feet, remaining close enough to the field to reach the runway if we had trouble. But everything went smoothly.
Doolittle then shut down one of the engines and feathered the propeller. He got the airplane trimmed and we did some flying on one engine, turning in both directions, climbing, making steep banks. The Marauder was a tame bird with Doolittle at the controls.
Suddenly he put the plane into a dive, built up excess speed and put it into a perfect loop -all with one engine dead. As we came to the bottom of the loop, he took the dead propeller out of feather and it started windmilling. Whe it was turning fast enough, he flipped on the magnetos and restarted the engine as we made a low pass over the airfield. We came around in a normal manner, dropped the gear and the flaps, and set the B-26 down smoothly on the runway.
The pilots and operations people who had been watching us were impressed. The flight was an important start toward convincing them that the B-26 was just another airplane.' "
Just a vignette from history.
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Originally posted by RAM:
Cave then explain me how a B26 was able to hit me at 1.8k 3 months ago. THe post is here somewhere, the guy ADMITED having hit me at 1.8K
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-21-2000).]
Ram,
1 incident in all of the sorties that you fly....lets not blow the exception up so much that it is perceived as the rule.
Put it in perspective. Buffs can be shot down..they can be shot down alot! I like the balance now. The buff drivers have a fighting chance at survival, but in the end, a smart fighter will always do them in, period.
Take away the buffs ability to defend itself EFFECTIVELY and you will rarely see a buff in the air. From a gameplay standpoint, buffs need this balance. You simply cannot get enough buff drivers together to make a combat box on a raid.
I don't know, to me, its a game. I learn to adapt to it. I get some kills, I get killed. I just try to have fun and play the hand that is dealt. If a better card game comes along, I might move tables, but so far, the dealer at this table has been good to me.
Cobra
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Originally posted by flakbait:
Now that I've got time in an M16 I can throw in what I've seen/done. Yesterday I nailed a N1K closing at 1.5k, only took 400 rounds of .50 cal fire. I fired 400 rounds, hit mostly on his right wing and blew it off. Here's the clincher; I actually WATCHED 30 some-odd hit flashes on him. 30 some-odd direct hits with quad M2HB .50 calibers and his wing was blown off.
Now to this morning: I hit another N1K, this time at 1.1k and WATCHED only 15 hit flashes or so. Guess what happened...go on, guess.
Nope, blew off BOTH wings plus his vert stab. Total rounds fired? 140.
As a contrast, I blasted a Panzer with .50 cals in an M16. Took 500 rounds, most of 'em direct hits, but I killed him. Blew of a track first then BOOM! Now here's another funny part; this morning I hit a Panzer 5 times with HE ammo....no damage. How do I know? I asked him on channel 1. He heard all 5 pings, but no damage was reported.
Either AH is going buggo or the Net was bad this morning. I know the Net wasn't bad, cause everyone was flying nice with no warps.
And the guy who I shot 5 times has a cable modem, he said "No problems on my end, yours?". I had no problems either.
Seems the guns, damage, and hardness need a bad re-work. Maybe change around the dispersion a bit too; not much, just a bit.
Flakbait
When I did do tests with latest 1.03, I we're droning in a buff and took 2-8 30mm rounds on me to die (avg. 5 hits), I shot that guy with 3 bullets from my rear turret (with just those twin .50s) and his wing blew off, began burning and saw some other smoke too, possibly from engine (I hit his wing around in the middle, but hits were fairly far spaced on the wing)
But then I did that test on purpose, he flew 80 yards behind and I pinged him about 15 times before something critical happend (though, engine seemed to get failure almost everytime within 3 hits, even if hit was in the tail, I once told him to drive aside, I shot his tail for 15-20 times before critical failure came - but his engine got oil hit after second hit in tail)
When I flew P-47 and were gun happy with eight .50s, it seemed weaker.. (even N1K2 took bunch of hits in the wing.. like 10-15 and still flew like nothing)
Though, once one zeke took bunch of hits from my B-17 from 1.3-1.7k, caught oil leak but kept flying for next 5 minutes, but, too slow .. lol
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I fly the Nik alot cause I seem to get along with it the best of all the fighters in the set. Now my gunnery skills are not very good. (actually they suck) (52 year old eyes and all) But on the few occasions when I have been able to score multiple hits on a B-17 with the Nik's 20mm cannon I usually get the satisfaction of makeing an engine or two smoke. Rarely does the bird go down. (at least while I am still alive)
One or two pings from the B-17 50 cal gun and one of my wings is usually flying past my canopy and down I go.
Be patient I tell myself, take some time to set up the attack. Well folks the only way to get an advantage in a 1 on 1 attack on a buff is to get lucky and catch him with his face in the bomb sight. I have chased bombers for next to 20 minutes and not been able to get an advantage. (hmmm, light fast manouverable fighter, out manouverd by heavy slow bomber? could something be amiss here?)
A large bomber like the B-17 should be tough for a single fighter to knock down in one pass. It should take a number of passes, or a well placed volly in a critical area.
I don't mind so much that his 50s do so much more damage than my 20mm cannons, (my Nik has taken multiple hits from a 51 with far less damage than 1 or 2 from a bomber) I just think that the bombers are far to manouverable.
Even with my poor gunnery, I have killed a P-51, and a Fw-190 from the cockpit sight of a B-26. Before you claim I suprized them, know that they had a ton of tracer going by them before I scored any hits. (piss poor shot, remember)
In short, turn down the manouverability a bit, otherwise leave em alone.
For now, still the best sim out there, I'm havin a blast...
...Weav
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Originally posted by Cobra:
Ram,
1 incident in all of the sorties that you fly....lets not blow the exception up so much that it is perceived as the rule.
Sorry no, it is a regular happening to me, when I go fast to win 1 or 11 position on a buff and I surpass it at say 1.7-1.8K I get pings (and quite a lot for those distances) even If I dont fly straight. What happens is that time I had film on so I had the proof. And I wasnt used to the uberbuff fire. now I am used to it so I dont start yelling each time it happens.
But for sure is not a strange happening. It in fact happens way too much times.
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My experience is that the key to attacking AH bombers is CLOSURE- reduce the range as rapidly as possible.
Mix some angle in with the closure and the odds shift heavily in favor of the fighter.
I think the current bomber model is fine for the main arena. However, IF bombers are intentionally overmodelled for main arena playability, then I think it'd be a good idea for CM's to be able to select a historical model for use in scenarios or other historical events.
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Originally posted by -towd_:
lol didnt pyro say the buff and fighter 50s are the same lol lol lol lol ahhem roadkill. and once again roadkill . do you play the game pyro?
Excuse me!? You know, I don't need this crap. If that's what you think, do yourself and everyone else a favor and find another pastime. A monthly subscription doesn't include us putting up with personal attacks, ad hominem arguments, and any other means you can think of to try to drive a wedge between players and developers.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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When a B-17 strayed away from its bomber formation, it was in SERIOUS trouble when one or 2 fighters attacked it.
This was in RL, with a plane that had human gunners on EACH gun.
Yet here we see a Buff laughing off attacking fighters because all the possible guns are aimed at the exact same point where the human gunner is aiming. So the 2 .50's of a tail gun magically become 4 . 50's if the attacking fighter is a bit above the exact 6 of the buff (or below it), and god forbid, if the bomber TURNS and tilts to one side you are suddenly faced with incoming fire of EIGHT .50's all aimed at the exact same spot as the human gunner's 2 .50's are hitting. Momma! Talk about convergence!
Not to mention that when you manage to be on the perfect 6 cloc position and get a GOOD burst of 4 .50's and one 20 mm cannon into the tail of the buff, you dont knock out the tail gun! I can believe that the gun itself isnt damaged, but the gunner? He should become a splat on the rear of that buff.
All these things have made me sick just to think on attacking a buff. So I dont even try any more to set up an attack or what not. I will just go in guns blazing and hope to blow it up, rip a wing or RAM it once the single-mega-ping of death makes my plane spin. If the whole point is to stop the buff from bombing, I have no problem to just go in and ram it out of the sky.
I climbed in 5 minutes, he has been climbing for an hour. Would I be annoyed if I was a buff? hell yeah. But then again, the LW did create squadrons of Fw190's whose sole mission was to ram the tail stabilizers out of the b-17s.
So far, this is the only solution I can think of for this problem. Tactics, high speed attacks are all fine and dandy, but they dont work when ONE lucky ping from the gunner means you got hit by more than the 2 .50's the human gunner should be firing at you is just plain ridiculous imho.
And to those that say that a fighter should not solo a buff I say: Why should a buff solo a bunch of fighters? I mean, Cmon! If we are forced to gang up on a buff just to be able to kill it, just to have a CHANCE of killing it and living to tell about it; why shouldnt buffs also be forced to fly in numbers so that they also have a chance of doing their job and surviving? Hey wait a minute.. thats how it really was! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Rooks and Bish have done WONDERFUL formations of buffs. I would think twice before attacking a formation of 3 B-17's even if I had my wingman with me and had an alt advantage.
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Well, Staga, here I go again...putting on my "yes" man hat.
Gentlemen, and I use that turn imploringly, am I the only one here that has noticed that replies from Grapevine are begining to show a bit of heat?
I think it's quite understandable, given the way complaints are made here. There ARE too many direct, vehement attacks on the people that make our fun possible.
WHY are you doing this? Did you never learn to make calm, rational statements? Can't you discuss things in a genteel way?
I don't think most of you have a clue as to the amount of work these people have done and are doing. Over the past 7-8 years I was privileged to write about computer games and was able to visit some flight sim design offices.
The workload and pressure is incredible! Just when you think you've got it made some little company like dFx upsets the entire apple cart and your code is worthless. I visited the Falcon 4.0 team right after another 3D card revolution basically turned 8 months of work to spit. Not many smiles for a while.
Did I mention the customers are never happy? Have you noticed that new flight sim releases don't seem as numerous as they used to be? I've talked to many, many marketing guys that told me this genre isn't worth the grief. You can't get good "word of mouth" going because you can NEVER satisfy the oh so vocal "hard core". As a result....fewer big sellers...fewer flight sims.
These guys have given us a pretty fine sim for what I consider an unbelieveable price. It's not perfect, but have they ever stopped improving it since it went beta? Do they fix what's wrong pretty fast? Do they listen?
Be thankful for what we've got. A team that likes what you like and is doing their damnedest to make it even better.
Sure, you have a right to complain and criticize and suggest.
Can you just do it in a civilized manner? Is that asking too bloody much? Why does it have to always be accusatory?
For the record, I've never met anyone on the HTC team in person. I don't work for them either.
As I said in another post, I'm just damn glad that somebody that can write programs so enthusiastically shares my interest. Because then I can enjoy trying to blow you guys out of the sky!
Now show a little respect for the guys that make this all possible! Please!
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 07-25-2000).]
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Toad, that'll get you at least one beer from me should we ever meet at an AH Con (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Well said.
-Westy
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I like it just the way it is nice balance between historical and playable <S> HTC.The B17s need a wet bar tho!
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Damn towd... that was really rude, and completely baseless to boot.
I have never seen or even heard of a game where the developers are as involved and responsive as Aces High. Period.
I respect the time they put into answering questions and dealing with the community.
towd, you are simply bad for the community, and I sincerely hope Pyro removes you from it, including this BBS. If you were gone, maybe Pyro would have slightly more time to answer some legitimate questions, or read some valid feedback. All things he spends an amazing amount of time doing now I might add, given that this whole thing is run by about SIX people.
Pyro you are 100% right, you don't have to put up with his crap. He falls outside of the window of customer service, and is a disruptive force in the community. Terminate him I say.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
- Steve Earl
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Originally posted by Tac:
why shouldnt buffs also be forced to fly in numbers so that they also have a chance of doing their job and surviving? Hey wait a minute.. thats how it really was!
Ok Tac..you want real life....here goes, In real life, you didn't get the choice of flying a fighter or a buff. So you want buffs to fly in packs...then when you log on you get assigned to buffs (unless ofcourse you fail the flight physical or can't qualify even for buff flying so now you are assigned as a gunner, no piloting period, like real life) until there are enough on to make formations. Then the fighter ranks can be filled.
Its done for playibility simply because the numbers and interest is not high enough to get the numbers to man huge formations of bombers. How hard is that to understand. Fly Buffs for a while and see.
Cobra
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Cobra, I do fly them from time to time. And I feel like a god when I can ping fighter after fighter out of the sky.
Cobra, I aint asking for huge formation. 3 17's have a very good chance of surviving a fighter attack.
I understand why this was done to buffs to improve their "playability", but it has completely ruined the buff experience for me. When I fly it, I can get lotsa kills, and most of them quite undeserved because I have a huge advantage with my turbolasers. Why do you think ackstars are so hateful? they barely take off and they are a menace, i've seen 2 ackstars clean the CAP off a base in less than 2 minutes!
Check the other buff thread. Some people have said that just making the buff more strong and withstand more damage would be preferable over superguns. And I agree with that.
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Well, hehe, I don't think they're quite "that" bad.
But they can be a little too dangerous.
I would recommend the following:
1. Leave the current max effective range advantage for the tail gun.
2. Decrease the range advantage mostly for the waist, ball, and top turrent guns. About 1/2 the range advantage they have now.
3. Front and cheek guns get no range advantage.
4. Add gun shake effect (per SpyHawk) dispersion. It made a big difference to tanks when you added the gun recoil. Made it harder to maintain laser accuracy. The effect would be nice for the .50's as well.
The buff guns aren't "grossly" out of whack. But maybe they could stand a little tweaking.
Wab
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Tac,
I don't like the ackstars also, but if you toughen the bird..they will never go down while ackstarring..or they will take your whole ammo load to do it, so they still achieved their mission of driving off the cap.
I've had pretty good luck shooting them down, but I am very patient, as one should be when setting up any attack. I do give those guns alot of respect.
We had a scenerio recently where we had 12 buffs in formation...12 of them in tight formation....the first enemy fighters we met, knocked down 6 on the first pass! I think we got 1 from that first pass.
Out of the entire raid...3 made it back, and this was with fighter escort.
Fly a buff in those scenerios also Tac. It can be an eye opener.
But if you toughen the bird and lower the guns, the ackstars will be even harder to shoot down at a field, and you'll expend all your ammo to do it.
Cobra
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Scenarios are a different thing. You get flights of fighters well coordinated and stuff to attack a wing of buffs neatly lined up, plus you only get one gunner (and thats if your lucky) to check all 720 degrees for you. No matter what kind of scenario you run, if you get a formation of fighters to attack a formation of buffs, the fighters will get most of the buffs because you only have one gunner (and if!) and the fighters would very well attack at the same time and split up the targets between them.And in most cases the whole point of the scenario is to bomb/stop bombers. The MA does not have that (though it would be cool if it did!).
The problem I have with the ackstars now is not that they take off to defend.. its that their guns whack the cap out real quick with those guns it has. In fact, just tonight we were attacking a field and 3 17's took off one on top of the other. We got one before it started to shoot at us, and the remaining 2 just murdered the low alt cap.If I have to do several passes at an ackstar to get it down I will, but right now I just ram them because I know that no matter from what angle I attack it, that buff just needs to ping me once or twice and im gone. The Buffs in Air Warrior 3 are great in this sense (at least when I used to play it)... the guns weren't turbolaser equipped but they were still a menace if they got up.
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Again I can throw in a little experience of mine. I nailed a B-17 taking off a few days ago when I was parked near the runway in an M16. Took 500 rounds, most of them hits, to cause an air-burst. Nice pretty, and BIG, explosion when that B-17 went up. 500 rounds. Most of that ammo went in near the nose [on my FE anyway] with a few strikes on the port wing. Seems a bit excessive to me. 500 holes in the front-end of a B-17 should do something. Again I asked the guy what happened on his end. He told me "All I heard was pings, but I didn't see any damage on the report thingy". Netlag, bad connect, damage moden SNAFU, who knows. This seems to be the norm in here lately: You see 50 billion pings before BOOM, your target sees or hears only 4.
Flakbait
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Guess what? He died after four pings in that case.
You didn't SEE him explode for two seconds afterwards because of net lag. So your 4th or 5th shot may have taken the pilot out and exploded the plane, but in the two second lag before you saw that happen, you poured 495 rounds into his already-dead ass. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Nature of the beast on the Internet... you need to wait a few seconds before your damage registers with him, the host, and back to your FE.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
- Steve Earl
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Update: buff guns still do an unholy amount of damage (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I have attacked buffs from all angles (HO, hig HO, low HO, 1 oc, 11 oc, 3 oc ,9oc low and high), at near-compression speeds, and most of the times the attacks are disasters, as only one or 2 pings from the buff guns will break a fighter apart.
Forgive me Pyro, I do not want to question your word on the lethality of the guns, but I really see that a buff's .50's really tear up a fighter way more than a fighter's .50's tear up another fighter. A pony has to hit its target several times or with a long stream of hits to break up an opposing fighter from a 6 position or a HO (the face buffs shoot at almost all the times). a P-38 has to hit its target with 8-10 pings to bring another fighter down (and thats with a 20mm cannon)... yet a Buff does it in 2 or 3 pings (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
A theory i've been thinking is that it might be some kind of convergence? A 50-cal fighter can kill another fighter in 2 or 3 ping if its at convergence (though a P-38 wont which is really odd, but that's another oddity I will bug you about later (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ). It may not be convergence as in fighters, but I'm thinking that if the evil otto is aiming the other buff guns at the exact same point at which the human gunner is aiming... well, that would certainly give a buff's guns a terrific damage potential at any range!
Is there any way to test this by disabling the otto and seeing if the 2 .50's on a tail gun will break a plane apart with 2 or 3 pings as they do now? It would be really interesting!
oh.. and <PUNT> *grin* (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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HTC has already stated that the buffs guns have more "range" for lag and that is NOT the problem. The problem is that the "adjustment" for lag is out of whack, if the disparity is 1.2 for the Buff to .8 for the fighter then make the effective range for the Buff 1.2 NOT 1.5 or greater. I don't want an advantage I want a LEVEL playing field which was the "reason" I was told for the "adjustment"???? There are a couple of things that make me "red" in the game but as Pyro says if I can't take it then leave (sort of the nuclear reaction) so I guess I will have to decide when I can no longer stand the situation until then I will just take what I get and try to live with it
and not "squeak" too much
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I just read this thread and to me I don't understand the problem. Firstly looking at the arguement then the community seems pretty evenly split and so I say that simple logic determines that HT has got the balance about right.
Secondly I fly buffs a lot and the one thing that makes the difference is the quality of attack and thats it. If someone cruises up on my six or even better trys a belly shot then they are toast - it is just soooo easy to get the tracking and lead right and lay a garden path of lead for them to fly into. Durruti (sorry no disrespect intended) did another easy one - a flat curved approach to my eleven level - was able to track it perfectly and new he was going down before he started. On the other hand a high overhead dive is almost impossible to defend due to trying to track from the upper turret at high elevation - ask Kronos - he did 3 perfect ones on me yesterday and got me every time.
A good fighter pilot will down an average buff pilot/gunner every time and a good buff gunner will down and average pilot every time - sounds about right to me.
Sparks
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I flew buffs yesterday, and had a good time.
Ask Citabria if I was invicible. He approached from hi3 at very hi speed. I pinged him, might have done some damage but was killed in one pass.
The mission before that, me and Executor were trying for the first time to close a7 fh's. PC and Toad showed up hi and started making trouble. I managed to shoot down PC. Then the worthless .50's of Toads 51 blew me to pieces.
It is quite doable.
On the other hand, I attacked a buff in my a8; came in hi and fast and was never hit. However, it took three passes and almost all my ammo to down the buff, and I hit him good. First pas on left wing, second pass on left wing/centerpiece, last pass on right wing/centerpiece/left wing. First pass made two engines spew out fuel. Next pass black smoke. Third pass took out left wing.
They can take a lot of ordnance, that is for sure. And sometimes even a well executed high speed attack results in you being shot down.
To me, they're a little tough, but otherwise ok. Unless I am in them; then they're paper planes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I usually manage to kill 2-3 fighters when I am buffing and attacked. Well, those fighter come in from bad angles. Attacks from hi and fast such as citabrias usually end up with me dead and the attacker losing some parts of his plane.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Bomber gunnery ruins the game. Its arcadish and stupid. Only thing that can make me drop main arena and my account. Phew! Now I have said it, and dont need to post more on this subject.
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Guys, I too have shot down buffs with high speed attacks from hard angles for buff and killed them without a scratch. The problem is that in those attack the buff didnt fire at me OR missed all it shots. (I have it filmed too)
I KNOW that if it had pinged me once I wouldve broken apart. And that's the part I have this problem with believing. I still believe its the otto pointing all possible guns at the same exact spot that's causing this. I'm just asking Pyro if this could be tested.
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Sparks no offense but your statements are a load of Horse SH--. With the net lag the mini warps and all it is VERY tuff to get any kind of an "angle" shot on a good buff pilot. I tried to attack one from the vertical last night, he jinked right, my Hog compressed and I lost a wing in the pass (the fact is that EVERYONE knows you can control the plane with rudder input from the Gunner position and it is an UNREAL ability)
Most buffs I kill either don't see me or have another fiter attacking them, if they see me I am toast if I press the attack PERIOD.
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Heh, perhaps external views on buffs should go? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) That may give a fighter a chance to sneak in. But then again, RL buffs had a gunner scanning all 720 degrees. I think the external view simulates the gunner's scanning the air for cons.
However, I do NOT think that all gunners can magically aim every possible gun at the exact same spot. Otto you raise your smelly head again!. Like I said in other post, In my opinion, otto gunners should fire in a random pattern in the general direction of where the human gunner is firing.
I say, a 10 degree cone of fire to the spot where the human gunner is aiming would do it quite nicely, that way the guns dont become the now-existing turbolasers when the plane does a close pass at a buff (gunners did blink, gulp,unconciously dodge the fighter that looks like its about to ram them).
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BigJim - no offense taken - I understand if you feel strongly about this. However so do I, and I think we'll have to agree to dis-agree on this one although I would be interested in doing some "live testing" in the TA or SEA if you fancied a spin sometime. I would be interested in getting Kronos along also and maybe some others who are good from both aspects - buff gunning and attacking - and see if we can change each others mind (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Disable external views in Buffs? What a joke... does that mean we're going to have 7 players in a buff just to see around us, and then it would be even harder to attack a buff because you could deal with more than one fighter.... I don't think anyone wants to go that direction!
Okay, people say fly in formations if you want to make the guns weaker and have a better chance of survival. Well, anymore than four buffs in formation and you DO get a lot of lag. I've been downed at over 2k away by a fighter when in large formations.
Again, time and patience will always down the buff. There are some attacks which I find VERY difficult to defend and I know that if I see a plane coming in from that direction then I know I am down unless he makes a fundamental mistake. Mostly if I see a higher con then I always try and put him on my six and quite often they continue to come. If they are coming in very fast then I will start shooting at about 1.8k. If they are about the same speed and closing slowly then I'll start shooting at about 0.9k. If the plane jinks a lot then he can get some good shots in, I had several good attacks on a B17 recently and I was impressed by their approach. I was downed and that was direct on my six! I'm glad not everyone has that skill!
Again, there are some planes that fall easier than others. I always find shooting 109s the easiest because their wings come off so easy, but they can still pack a punch. Spits are pretty easy to get too unless they're close where obviously the cannons do a lot of damage. Mustang's are easyish to down, BUT get a Mustang, P47 or P38 coming in high and fast and bye bye buff. I think the 205 is more effective than the 109. I won't mention the F4UC because I have only killed about 2 of them in a buff - they always get you before you've even hit them, or seriously damaged them. It's the only plane I really worry about apart from high cons that is.
Time and patience and as Sparks put, the quality of attack! I am sure that's what real pilots had. I'll say again, about 95% of my kills of fighters in a buff are on my six. That says a lot doesn't it? (i.e. the last place I'd ever attack a buff is the six!).
Regards
'Nexx'