Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Weave on August 30, 2001, 05:22:00 AM
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I know this has been brought up before, but it is way too easy to take out the carrier by Kamikaze. I'd seen our carriers taken out several times this way.
Last night on two occasions the enemy brought their carrier to 48, so I thought I'd give it a try. It was so easy that I went 2 for 2.
Grab a F4U-D with 2K bombs, climb to 12K, fly directly over the top of the carrier and do a non powered dive straight down. Release the bombs at 5K and follow them down to the deck. Me dead, carrier dead. Wait 15 minutes and fleet disappears. Sounds like a cooking recipe. :)
A single Kamikaze hit rarely sank the carrier in RL. Flight ops were suspended for sure, but the whole task force didn't sink from one hit.
Maybe the hanger function aboard the cv should be closed for 30 minutes with the deck on fire, then rebuilt provided additional hits were not taken. Each ship in the group should need to be sank individualy, however once the carrier has been sank, the group cannot be controled, but automaticaly takes a heading back to it's port.
Just some thoughts. ;)
[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: Weave ]
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Just curious, do you know for a fact that there were no other ord spent on the deck of that CV within 30 min.? Tests I've personally done (and, I might add, Flakbaits Ord to Target charts reflect the same findings) show that it requires 4000 lbs of bombs. Either way, I agree its much to easy to sink a CV.
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Rip, have you done those tests recently? I ask because, lately I've seen several CVs kill by lone kamikaze fighters, and wonder if the could ALL be adding the "last straw".
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No, did them around 1.06. Could be old data.
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just curious...
if your plane crashes on the CV, is the damage from the plane blowing up also included?
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No.
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I think 4k required.
Lone Kamikazes are only possible if 5"'s are unmanned. Otherwise, that F4U is confetti in short order. I think the main problem on TG's resides just on the other side of the road. It's annoying that a lone Lancaster/B17/B26 flying some 15k alt can pinpoint and effectively sink a CV. Manouvering won't save the boat. Neither woud manned ack.
OTOH, Torpedo attack is VERY difficult to perform successfully.
I think TG's are reasonably well protected, apart from wonderflak.
Cheers,
Pepe
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Rip, on both occasions the carrier had just entered the area. Maybe it's a bug I don't know. Later in the evening, Jimbear sank the same carrier with eight rockets. :D
On my second kill the carrier was manouvering with tight turns to no avail.
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I was messin around offline earlier and whacked the carrier with 4k of bombs. Someone e-mailed me a while back askin about how accurate my ord chart was. Dead on as best as I can tell. Still needs some updating in regards to effects, but the poundage is dead on. As for what goes on in the MA in regards to how much blows up what, I'd need someone to give me that info.
Weave, that's nothin. I sank a CV with a single shot from my 190's .30 cal BB gun once!! Back during the infamous 1.05 "glass carrier" days anyway.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
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After getting frustrated being on the recieving side, I gave it a try. I used a JU88 with 4 1000 pounders. Easy as cake to dive right in and take out the CV. Of course, you won't live.
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Originally posted by iculus:
After getting frustrated being on the recieving side, I gave it a try. I used a JU88 with 4 1000 pounders. Easy as cake to dive right in and take out the CV. Of course, you won't live.
the last week i been using p38, with 2 1ks and rocks, u can sink a CV easy with 1 hvy figher, even if CV has been unhit. i did it 4 times last night ne of 48. i even have film
of 1 of my p38 runs. and rarely do i die
, i usually able to RTB even if 5"s are manned.
a 2 1k fighter can sink a cv.
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This last week, I've found myself over a Bishop fleet in a Lancaster at 18k loaded with 18x500 pounders & a 4,000lb bomb. :D Twice. :D :D And the fleet was not zig-zagging. :D :D :D
In the first attack, I hit the CV's flight deck on the starboard bow with the 4,000lber. It sank.
In the second attack, I dropped 6x500lbers (delay=0.05) right down the middle of the flight deck. Those 3,000 pounds sank the CV. I doubt it had been hit in the preceding 30 minutes, since I found the fleet by chance all alone in the middle of the Southwest Sea in the Mindanao terrain.
I then attacked the heavy cruiser, and hit its stern with the 4,000lber. It sunk.
/S/ MRPLUTO, Captain, VMF-323, ~Death Rattlers~
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Weave that sounded like a great idea to me... Up the amount of damage needed to kill a CV, but also add another lesser level of damage where the CV stays afloat, but the flight ops get shut down for a period of time (equivelant to bombing the "hanger" on the flight deck).
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"A single Kamikaze hit rarely sank the carrier in RL. Flight ops were suspended for sure, but the whole task force didn't sink from one hit."
Carrier fleets also operated with a dedicated CAP over head to help prevent the sinking of ships in the fleet, especially the CV. The CAP - *THAT* is the missing ingredient. Not that it takes too little to sink a CV or that it's too easy , this or that... The players using the CV allow it to be too easy for the enemy to sink thier ship.
Westy
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Westy... no amount of zigging and zagging and manning the 5" can prevent a couple of kamikazee fighters with 2k eggs....
SKurj
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Oh most of the time they cannot. Just as in real life a CV was dead meat if all they had to rely on was aa and maneuvering. But about 6 players flying combat air patrol around the fleet ops area can help prevent it from happening.
My main point is that if players do not want to cap thier CV then they shouldn't use exmaples of what it was really like in WWII to support a change in gameplay for by not providing a CAP they themselves not doing the what was really done back then.
Westy
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Irregardless if the carrier was capped or not, the real point I was trying to make is that a single Kamikaze wouldn't normaly take one out. So my suggestion was that the damage model was off a bit.
Kinda like the M-3 we have that is impervious to 20mm cannons, or the panzer which loses it's track from a single 50 cal. hit.
:eek:
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You do understand tho don't you Westy? that a single Japanese Kamikazee that hit a CV never sank one in ww2?
With the possible exception of bombs landing amongst ordnance or hitting the magazine, 2 bombs never sank a CV in WW2.
2 torps never sank a CV either. It took many more than that in RL.
Gameplay concessions have to be made. I can't recall meeting anyone willing to hover over the fleet at 20k their whole time in the MA...
SKurj
SKurj
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I can agree it should be upped. It should take more. But not so much more as to compensate for the lack of a "CAP".
Now the truth is that it did not always require massive amount of ordinance to sink a CV. The Hiryu was sunk by only four bombs at Midway. The USS Princeton was sunk by just one Japanese plane with just one 500lb bomb.
And as regards kamikazes; the carrier "St Lo" was sunk by one single Zeke, the "Shawnee" by two off of the Phiilipines even though the first woudl have done it. The carrier "Ommaney Bay" was so wrecked from the damage started by one kamikaze that it was finished off and sunk by our own destroyers. The Bismark Sea was sunk only two kamikazes.
Here's a good site with a running tally of all the ships sunk and damaged by kamikazes. There are more sites with stories having greater detail for some of the specific losses.
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/3758/kamikaze.htm (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/3758/kamikaze.htm)
Westy
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*technical information foul on player Westy*
15 yards, and you go to bed without your cookies :p
CVL's or "Jeep" Carriers don't count ;)
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We have 'virtual carriers" which are even lighter.
:p
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Originally posted by Weave:
Kinda like the M-3 we have that is impervious to 20mm cannons, or the panzer which loses it's track from a single 50 cal. hit.
:eek:
I've been hearing this alot about the M3 but I never seem to experience such when I am driving in one....LOL.
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Neither have I rogwar, but I've lit the hell out em with a, (ahem) Japanese plane with four cannons, and they continue to drive merrily along.
:p
Oh my gosh! I've hijacked my own thread. :rolleyes:
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Excellent kamikaze reference, Westy. The game has to make lots of compensations and compromises, of course, but I can't get used to horizontal bombers being so accurate against ships. Dive bombers yes, torpedo bombers sometimes, but horizontal bombers? Not often.
I'm also embarrassed by a horizontal bomber flying in a straight line right toward my cv dual 5-inchers and I'm not able to cream the bomber no matter how much or how less I lead it. This after doing very well in offline practice. What am I doing wrong?
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the problems arent kamikaze effectiveness vs cvs, they are as effective as they should be
like westy said, you need cap. if you had a few guys flying cap it helps ALOT
ok the other problem tho is the level bombers. they are wayyy too accurate vs a moving target
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You mean those same level bomber that are way too accurate against land targets too?
Those bombers?
Hans.
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IMO the fact that one plane can Kamikaze Kill a CV almost makes the CV useless.
Seems like something fun to do, but steals greatly from overall game play.
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I would just like to take credit for inventing the kamakazie dive bomb attack on a cv with an F4U carring 2K of bombs. :D
You see, back in the day when CV's were first invented there was a large dispute about how many pounds of bombs it took to kill a CV...so I volunteered my HOG for a test mission.
The mission was based on some top secret information that I got from a former officer of the USS Hornet. So I went down to California and toured the Hornet to verify the information.
As it turns out, there is a ventiallation shaft at the base of the control tower on a CV. Yes, it is a little known fact but as my test results proved, if you drop 2K right on the deck of the CV right near the tower, it will be just enough to trigger a chain reaction through the ventilation shaft resulting in a self destruct.
Further reasearch proved that it is the exact same type of ventillation shaft used on the Death Star! :D