Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Delirium on December 02, 2008, 02:13:43 AM
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I was thinking about getting a new computer early next year, my machine is starting to have problems keeping up. I have;
Athlon dual core 2.4, socket 939 (fastest chip available for my MB, A8N-SLI Deluxe)
2 gigs of ram for a total of 4 simms each 512 meg
7800gtx vid card from BFG
WinXP and Vista on dual boots on different hard drives.
Onboard sound- my X-FI wouldn't run properly with my headphones
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I was thinking about getting a BFG GeForce 9800 GTX now and maybe getting 3- 1meg ram simms until I can upgrade early next year. Should I wait and not even bother with the vid card or ram until I buy my new machine (Feb/March) or should I go ahead and do this minor upgrade?
Currently, I can run AH at 512 textures with graphics decreased to maintain a 60 frame rate. I would like to run everything at 100% (1024 text and full graphic settings) but I'm not sure I ever could with this system.
Opinions, suggestions are all welcome.
Thanks!
PS- I read the Tom's Hardware thread and it has me thinking.
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Del U might be CPU limited already, if so the VC (and/or memory) upgrade will net you little gain. I'd guess your memory is pretty slow compared to current specs anyway...if your power supply is decent I'd think about starting with a MB/CPU combo. Thats a possible issue with the VC card upgrade as well...I'd wait till you can go the full route unless you can make it work going MB/CPU 1st....just my two cents.
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I was at work when I typed that, here is my CPU;
AMD Athlon 64 FX60 2.61 Ghz
My MB does support PCI-E16, what I was thinking about doing is getting the video card now and later buying a twin (for SLI) when I do get my new system. I'll throw the old 7800 into the old computer again, I don't forsee my 5 year old daughter needing a fast system to play 'Dr Seuss and His Crazy Adventures'.
I know SLI isn't that advantageous but the 2nd card should be alot cheaper by then.
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The FX60 clocks out better then I thought. From the few benchmarks I could fnd online its below the 6600 but not by a huge amount...so I appear to be wrong, you are VC limited not CPU.
I'm not sure what VC makes the most sense since there is new stuff in both camps. I bought an 8800GTS just a few months ago. My understanding is that the 8800 and 9800 are basically the same.
with the 260's falling to under $200 (after rebate) I might go that route now...http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127361
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I'd get a nice video card now, install it then swap it into whatever you build in the future. That assumes you have an adequete power supply with enough amps on the 12 V rails.
Don't count on that same card being available when you're ready to build. They tend to get phased in and out pretty quickly. The 512k 8800 GTS I bought in March is almost totally gone now, replaced by the 9800 so buy with the plan NOT to SLI with whatever you buy. If you get to later, then that's a bonus.
I'd leave the RAM alone for now. No windows application can utilize more than 2 Gb anyway. Unless you can put in DDR2 1066 or faster to match your next motherboard I'd wait.
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If it is stable, I'd stick with your current cpu/mobo and just upgrade the video card to the best bang/buck point right *now*. The nvidia GTX260s can be had for under $200 (after rebates) and with that cpu you could push through most games with great image quality and framerates. AH ought to just about max out with a GTX 260 plus you could turn on lots of FSAA and make the picture look really nice. That cpu is just fine IMHO.
This assumes that the GTX 260 is compatible with your mobo... I would assume it is, but some of the older pci-e boards might not work with the newest cards even though they usually claim backwards compatibility for the vid cards. Check first before buying.
Your memory is probably ok, however you might get a very slight speedup by going to 2 1-meg sticks so you can switch the memory command rate from 2T to 1T (if it's not already at 1T). Most of the socket 939 boards can only run at 1T with 2 sticks of ram installed, and memory performance increases up to 10% (translating to only a small speedup in real world applications though).
The only other thing you might need if you go with a GTX 260 is a new PSU, if your current one can't handle the load.
The good deals on the GTX 260s are going to end soon, because nvidia released an update to the GTX 260 that is very slightly faster. The new 260s are priced at least $50 above the old ones, and when the old ones sell out they are gone gone gone. The old ones are within a percent or two in speed of the new ones, so the price premium on the new ones is not worth it at all. Get the cheapest 260 you can find and I think you'll be happy with it.
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AH ought to just about max out with a GTX 260 plus you could turn on lots of FSAA and make the picture look really nice.
AH doesn't even max out my 512 8800 GTS @ 8xAA + 2xAF, all game settings maxed w/1024 textures. 9800 is the current version.
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I was at work when I typed that, here is my CPU;
AMD Athlon 64 FX60 2.61 Ghz
My MB does support PCI-E16, what I was thinking about doing is getting the video card now and later buying a twin (for SLI) when I do get my new system. I'll throw the old 7800 into the old computer again, I don't forsee my 5 year old daughter needing a fast system to play 'Dr Seuss and His Crazy Adventures'.
I know SLI isn't that advantageous but the 2nd card should be alot cheaper by then.
From personal experance always buy cards in pairs of your going to SLI and with the same serial number series if you can, not one today and one 4 months from now. You can, but I have had problems in the past with this type of combination. I build 7 to 10 "boutique" machines (in excess of 5k) per month and have learned the hard way.
If your going to do a new box in the future, try and hold off, if you cant and are thinking of a new MB CPU purchase eVGA has a real food deal on their newly released x58 board. Rebates and all.
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What do you gents think, would it be a good idea to buy a cheap soundcard to save CPU cycles that are being used by my onboard sound card?
I've tried in Fata1ty in the past and it gave so many pops, hisses, cracks I couldn't it anymore.
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I would personally - then again, I had an old soundblaster live that wasnt in use, so disabled my onboard sound (via bios), slapped card in, installed drivers - jobs a good un.
Wurzel
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What do you gents think, would it be a good idea to buy a cheap soundcard to save CPU cycles that are being used by my onboard sound card?
I've tried in Fata1ty in the past and it gave so many pops, hisses, cracks I couldn't it anymore.
I would. Makes a big improvement. Which card? I don't know. I would definately read up on it.
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What do you gents think, would it be a good idea to buy a cheap soundcard to save CPU cycles that are being used by my onboard sound card?
I've tried in Fata1ty in the past and it gave so many pops, hisses, cracks I couldn't it anymore.
The X-Fi Fata1ty card was nothing more than a marketing POS and what you described was and still is a common problem with that particular card, even the PCI-E version has the same issues. However, the Xtreme Gamer X-Fi card is good, very good and doesn't seem to have the same issues as the Fata1ty version nor is it loaded down with all that wasteful crap the Fata1ty version has on it.
ack-ack
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The X-Fi Fata1ty card was nothing more than a marketing POS and what you described was and still is a common problem with that particular card, even the PCI-E version has the same issues. However, the Xtreme Gamer X-Fi card is good, very good and doesn't seem to have the same issues as the Fata1ty version nor is it loaded down with all that wasteful crap the Fata1ty version has on it.
ack-ack
It sure is,I have a similar system Del,amd4200 cpu,7800gtx 1gig ocz ram and xtreme G Xfi.
unfortunately socket 939 is a deadend but as others have said,new VC and 2 stiks of 1gig ram is the way to go.Even just the VC which is what I'd do then swap it to a new MB/cpu setup.
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No windows application can utilize more than 2 Gb anyway. ...
Thats not true. Large memory address aware programs are already on the market. The problem is with 32 bit Windows.
You can also force programs into being 'aware' but for AHII it violates the EULA.
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I cannot give any opinions on the Xtreme Gamer version, but last year I went from a original Audigy card, circa 2003 I believe, to an Fatality. I saw a nice boost in audio quality in my higher end headphones that made even old MP3 lower bit rate files I had sound much better. I also noticed a slight boost in FPS in games like COH and BF2, and the newer environmental EAX sounds were a nice addition as well. I'm not sure what issues (other than maybe ones with Vista) you're describing. Also, not quite sure what its loaded with crap is. It may come with more software, but I barely install any of the stuff Creative sends with it anyways.
Now, if I hadn't had $150 is Best Buy gift cards and they had the Xtreme Gamer in stock when I was shopping there, I wouldn't have bought the Fatality. I agree it was overpriced at the $150, but it was on post-xmas sale at $110 and I said what the heck. I highly doubt the X-ram does a terrible amount in games that support its features anyways.
Outside of that and an initial IRQ conflict, I have no complaints about the card.
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I'm hesitant to go out and purchase a $150 sound card and risk having the same noise/pops/hisses like before.
I'd buy a cheap Creative Audigy, but it doesn't have the 5 ports I need I need the regular 5.1 plugs with mic and an input/aux port. None of the older Audigy have them.
I did put in the 9800 last night and except for one strange lock up in AH, everything is working great. Frames don't really drop below 50 at 512 textures with everything 100%.
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I'm hesitant to go out and purchase a $150 sound card and risk having the same noise/pops/hisses like before.
I'd buy a cheap Creative Audigy, but it doesn't have the 5 ports I need I need the regular 5.1 plugs with mic and an input/aux port. None of the older Audigy have them.
I did put in the 9800 last night and except for one strange lock up in AH, everything is working great. Frames don't really drop below 50 at 512 textures with everything 100%.
Don't. The X-Fi Gamer Pro Fatality card is $150. You don't need it. Just get the X-Fi gamer for about $80-90.
I have the Pro Fatility version. There's nothing wrong with it but I wish I'd have saved the $ and gone for the regular X-Fi Gamer.
The nice thing about the X-Fi's is they have their own processors and RAM and unload all of the audio processing off of the main system.
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Neither the BGears bEnspirer or the Xonar have any hissing or popping under V64. Im not encouraging you to spend the extra money if you are using XP.
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I've read up on the Xonar soundcards alot lately, it appears they have a real issue with EAX with everything except a couple titles. If you do not disable it before you start software that uses it, it will crash your system and Asus hasn't been very quick with any patches.
Does anyone have a xonar sc and have they given anyone problems?
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So if I have a P4 3.0 will I see a FPS gain going from a Audigy 2 to a X-Fi Gamer?
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So if I have a P4 3.0 will I see a FPS gain going from a Audigy 2 to a X-Fi Gamer?
I have no idea about an Audigy 2 to X-Fi, but I saw some from an Audigy 1 to X-Fi
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So if I have a P4 3.0 will I see a FPS gain going from a Audigy 2 to a X-Fi Gamer?
I would think you should but I'm not sure how much.
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So if I have a P4 3.0 will I see a FPS gain going from a Audigy 2 to a X-Fi Gamer?
The difference is moving from onboard sound to a soundcard, that will save you a bit in cpu cycles.
I don't think you'd see any moving from one sound card to another, unless the software supported that X-ram (or whatever Creative calls it) on the X-Fi card.
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Brief comparison on all Sound Blaster cards.
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=174276
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I use the bEnspirer and Xonar both and with either one you should turn EAX off. I have never had it cause a crash of Windows but the game itself (in this case Doom 3) would go 'Not Responding.' On the upside either one of those cards will give you much more dynamic sound then EAX can provide. I mean its not even close.
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I put in the 9800 vid card (after using a driver cleaner) and I'm having lock ups from time to time. The screen will display a bunch of random patterns/colors and I have to turn off the machine.
Because of my situation, I think it is one of 4 things.
1. I don't have the power to run the card properly. I have this PS and the 9800 I have needs both PCI-E power connectors. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817702003
2. The 9800 card won't run being not being reverse compatible with my A8N-SLI Deluxe MB which only supports PCI-E x16 1.0 and not 2.0
3. The card is defective. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143162
4. I have to change a setting on the vid card or bios to make this thing work properly.
Again, thanks for all the help and advice, gents. :)
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I think when I go home in the morning I'm going to try rolling back drivers a bit.
If that doesn't work;
I'm going to try and check the temps on the card, maybe the thermostat on it is set too low;
If that is it, or neither idea works I'll likely RMA it.
Anyone think of anything else I may have missed?
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I put in the 9800 vid card (after using a driver cleaner) and I'm having lock ups from time to time. The screen will display a bunch of random patterns/colors and I have to turn off the machine.
Because of my situation, I think it is one of 4 things.
1. I don't have the power to run the card properly. I have this PS and the 9800 I have needs both PCI-E power connectors. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817702003
2. The 9800 card won't run being not being reverse compatible with my A8N-SLI Deluxe MB which only supports PCI-E x16 1.0 and not 2.0
3. The card is defective. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143162
4. I have to change a setting on the vid card or bios to make this thing work properly.
Again, thanks for all the help and advice, gents. :)
1. Don't think it's the PSU (you've got 2 12 volt rails at 20 amps each while card only requires 26 amps) unless you've got a lot of other stuff running as well (multiple drives and whatnot).
2 I'm pretty sure PCI/E 1.1 and 2.0 are backwards compatible.. Shouldn't be an issue there..
3. Could be defective.. Only one way to find out (RMA)
4. Changing low-level settings and "upgrading" the bios will void warranty. BFG is VERY sensitive on this issue. Shouldn't have to do anything but plug it in, connect power, install driver, go go go...
Personally, I'd send it back and try a new one.. If the same thing happens, probably gonna have to have a session with their techsupport..
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I think when I go home in the morning I'm going to try rolling back drivers a bit.
If that doesn't work;
I'm going to try and check the temps on the card, maybe the thermostat on it is set too low;
If that is it, or neither idea works I'll likely RMA it.
Anyone think of anything else I may have missed?
What driver version are you using? I upgraded to the latest driver available from Nvidia a few days ago and my 9800GTX didn't like it very much..
After uninstalling and cleaning out any traces left by the 180.48 driver, I found the 180.60 beta and it works great. Try this: http://www.nvidia.com/object/thankyou.html?url=/compute/cuda/2.1-Beta/drivers/180.60_CUDA_XP_beta.exe (http://www.nvidia.com/object/thankyou.html?url=/compute/cuda/2.1-Beta/drivers/180.60_CUDA_XP_beta.exe)
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I put in the 9800 vid card (after using a driver cleaner) and I'm having lock ups from time to time. The screen will display a bunch of random patterns/colors and I have to turn off the machine.
Sounds like a PSU issue to me. PCIe x16 and PCIe X16 2.0 are cross-compatible.
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I would RMA it before outright returning it, since newegg charges a stiff restocking fee for returns.
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Sounds like a PSU issue to me. PCIe x16 and PCIe X16 2.0 are cross-compatible.
The A8N-SLI Deluxe does have some cross compatibility issues. The BIOS has not been updated since Mar 7 2007 while other boards have seen BIOS updates more recently for the same problem. BIOS version 1604 is the latest version and it was a BETA. This is one of the first SLI boards so I am not surprised its very spotty on compatibility with PCIe 2.0.
EDIT: Worse is going to be compatibility with Vista I would think (given Nvidia anything).
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Well, I gutted the computer to make sure it wasn't a power issue. I tried an alternative power suppy, still no luck.
I can almost recreate it at all by playing with video settings in XP, it will lock up at time during that moment.
I'm going to try re-seating the card in the slot when I put in my old X-Fi this weekend. If that doesn't work, I will remove the 9800 and RMA it.
I really don't want to end up buying a new MB, CPU, Ram, etc etc right now.
I did flash the bios some time ago, I'm not home right now and I am not sure what version I'm running with right now. I know I do have a A8nSLI Deluxe MB.
Thanks again for all the help, gents. :aok
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Give ASUS and maybe nvidia tech support a try... They ought to be able to tell you right away if there is a compatibility problem. I don't remember if you mentioned it, but also make sure your mobo bios is the latest.
Also, you could try a fresh windows installation if you have a spare HD lying around. Install a new copy of winXP to the new HD and see if it works. That would rule out any software problems.
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Is that an Nvidia 700 series mobo? If so update to the latest BIOS. There were video corruption problems with that chipset a while back that were fixed with a BIOS update.
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I have the new bios 1085 with the awdflash.exe on a preformatted floppy to flash the bios.
Is it alright to boot xp in safe mood with dos prompt or do I need to make an actual boot disk?
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I have the new bios 1085 with the awdflash.exe on a preformatted floppy to flash the bios.
Is it alright to boot xp in safe mood with dos prompt or do I need to make an actual boot disk?
Just stick the floppy in with floppy drive as the first boot device and it will boot to the BIOS flash.
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I have the new bios 1085 with the awdflash.exe on a preformatted floppy to flash the bios.
Is it alright to boot xp in safe mood with dos prompt or do I need to make an actual boot disk?
I would use a boot disk. Windows does weird things with memory mapping. This site might help, although I don't remember if I've tried any of their stuff:
http://www.bootdisk.com/bootdisk.htm
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Yes sorry I got the name of your MB wrong. 1805 (I assume you thumbed the BIOS numbers) is the latest BIOS, but it was updated in support of a PCIe 1.1 video card so you may still have problems. Nothing to lose trying though.
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Sounds like a PSU issue to me. PCIe x16 and PCIe X16 2.0 are cross-compatible.
Scottie Give me more power... PSU sounds like to me too. Most prebuilts that are HP,Compaq, Dell etc etc are 300 to 400 watt PSU not enough.
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I'm using a 650 BFG, I posted a link to it in this thread.
edit: here it is
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817702003
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I'm using a 650 BFG, I posted a link to it in this thread.
edit: here it is
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817702003
Discontinued product.... only 2 12v Rails not enough amps collectively to do the job "+3.3V@30A,+5V@54A,+12V1@20A,+12V2@20A,-12V@0.8A, +5VSB@2.5A" Only 20 amps on two of the rails. I have 36 amps on one rail alone. Underpowered PSU, Not modular, and if you have one component plugged into the same rail as the video, say a hard drive your not getting all the power you need for the card.
~SPECS~
Minimum System Requirements
> One vacant add-in card slot below the PCI Express® x16 slot. This graphics card physically occupies two slots
> 1GB of system memory
> Microsoft Windows Vista -or- Windows XP
> CD or DVD-ROM drive
> 100MB of available hard disk drive space for basic driver installation
> 450W PCI Express®-compliant system power supply with a combined 12V current rating of 24A or more (Minimum system power requirement based on a PC configured with an Intel Core®2 Duo E4500 processor)
> PCI Express® or PCI Express® 2.0-compliant system motherboard with one vacant PCI Express® x16 slot
> Two 6-pin PCI Express® supplementary power connectors -or- One 6-pin PCI Express® and two 4-pin Molex® supplementary power connectors
Source: http://www.bfgtech.com/bfgr98512gtxe.aspx (http://www.bfgtech.com/bfgr98512gtxe.aspx)
These are minimum requirements... do you have a faster CPU? More then one HD, Lights, CD\DVD's etc. How many fans?
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And I thought BFG renegged their lifetime warranties on their PSU's in favor of lower quality units with 1 year warranties.
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TilDeath, thanks for the assistance! :) You are right, I have 2 HDs, 5 fans, 4 joysticks, 2 mice and a keyboard. I purchased this power supply about 2 years ago when the current one literally started smoking.
Maybe I'm a moron (ok, I am) but I have no experience with electricity. I'm still on 15 amp service for the line my computer is plugged into, is that apples and oranges?
Even if it is not, do you forsee me having problems overloading that 15 amp circuit if I get a bigger power supply?
If I do get a bigger power supply, is there one you recommend? I would like something I will not have to upgrade within 2-3 years, will power everything I have without any worries, and it will go in my new system eventually. I'll put the old PSU and the 7800 back into my old computer and give it to my daughter.
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I really like my seasonic PSUs. Quiet and no problems, "modern" selection of connectors and lots of power available on the rails. In spite of Skuzzy's insistance that it's a problem, I like the modular one I have. Yes every plug you add to a line drops the quality of power delivered down that line, but for most users the fact is that it simply isn't a problem. We're not loading the PSU up to 90% of capacity and holding it there, we're not running 3-way SLI, and we're not pushing for world-beating overclocks. A modular PSU will cost more but you really save on the clutter and you might even end up with LESS total connectors since you can often run single-connector lines straight from the PSU to the components needing power. The mobo will always get power straight from the PSU without any extra connectors since the mobo lines are permanently attached as usual, and you can often use dedicated lines to power various items instead of putting multiple items on a single line if you're worried about power quality. My video card uses two dedicated lines from the PSU, meaning each card is getting power from a line that has a single high quality connector (not those crummy molex ones). That means I'm probably getting better quality power than someone who has their vid card running off of a line that has 2 or 3 connectors on it.
As for your PSU being the culprit... A 650W psu wouldn't immediately strike me as being the problem since your total power load is probably somewhere under 350W at full load. Still, anything is possible I suppose and a crummy PSU just might give the results you see. Checking the exact PSU specs is a good idea, and matching the PSU to your vid card and then adding a hefty wattage pad is a good idea. Don't break the bank getting a tri-sli certified unit, but your PSU should be more reliable if it's not working too hard.
I'd personally wait for the vid card RMA. If the second card does the same thing, get a good PSU. PC Power and Cooling has good ones, but like I said I really like my seasonic PSUs. You really need to read some PSU reviews. Again it's against Skuzzy's recommendation, but I like the testing methodology behind hardocp's PSU reviews. They test them at various loads, look at voltage, ripple, sag under load, etc., and they also take the suckers apart to find out who the actual manufacturer was and what quality level of components were used. Very detailed, and it might help you choose what brand and product line to get because sometimes they can identify when an expensive PSU is really just a re-branded cheapo model.
If you need a PSU NOW though, it's hard to go wrong with PC Power and Cooling or in my experience, Seasonic. There are other brands that don't seem to have a "cheapo" product line, but I did my research a while ago and settled on those two as my personal picks.
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BTW you might actually be better off on that 15A circuit with a newer PSU. The older ones toss away over 20% of the power drawn from the wall (discarded as heat), while the newest ones can be over 85% efficient so they waste 15% or less. That means for the same computer configuration, you're pulling 5% or so less power from the wall.
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A 650W psu wouldn't immediately strike me as being the problem since your total power load is probably somewhere under 350W at full load.
I'd personally wait for the vid card RMA. If the second card does the same thing, get a good PSU.
Well, thinking about it, I'm going to need a power supply for my new machine anyway. Wife is basically giving me a blank check and if I get a couple peices now it will soften the blow later when I purchase the MB/CPU.
What do you think about this PSU?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703003
It isn't modular, but it seems to be a sturdy unit with a good backing. I think it may be too much for the circuit tho, but like I said, electricty isn't my forte.
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Maybe this PSU would be a better unit, less draw from the wall, should be able to power the card easily enough (not sure about SLI tho) and it is alot cheaper.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703009
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I thought I read the PC&C PSU's didn't like modular because they believed it was another possible spot for connection problems and they preferred to use non-modular designs. I can see their point about it, however, I've never seen PSU problems develop at that connection point. I enjoy my modular cabling as I don't have to have more that what I need running in the case.
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I thought I read the PC&C PSU's didn't like modular because they believed it was another possible spot for connection problems and they preferred to use non-modular designs. I can see their point about it, however, I've never seen PSU problems develop at that connection point. I enjoy my modular cabling as I don't have to have more that what I need running in the case.
Agreed! PC&C is owned and made by OCZ some of the best memory out there. I have spoke with their Sr techs and most of them dont use the Single rail systems. The nice thing about single rails is you have all the amps available for that rail in one place. The disadvantage to a single rail system is overloads, noise and if a PSU failure happens you could lose your whole system and not just a GPU, CPU, Memory, HD etc but all of it.
A power supply is just as your house's fuse box includes both a large main breaker and a smaller circuit breaker per circuit to ensure the smaller branch circuit wires do not overheat, high-capacity PSUs divide their output into multiple "rails" each with a smaller current limit. The relevant safety standard requires a 20A limit (which a lot of manufactures ignore esp PC&C, they have enough amps on a single rail to kill ya), which is quite generous, given that the wires are smaller than those used in your house to carry 15A. (But there is the advantage that the wires aren't hidden in walls, so they're cooled better and you'll smell it if something starts burning.) This, however, makes connecting the PSU more complex; in addition to not overloading it overall, you have to avoid overloading each rail or it will shut down. A good power supply will make that easy by providing rails totalling much more than the total PSU rating. A cheaper alternative is to provide just enough rails to total the overall capacity, which makes it difficult to use all of a power supply's capacity. (This may be a clue that the PSU is incapable of delivering its full rated capacity.) An even cheaper alternative, which has become quite popular, is to eliminate all of the safety circuitry and produce a "single-rail" power supply which can deliver all of its output on any wire. This is technically in violation of the ATX power supply specification but has not proved to be a safety problem in practice, and is preferred by many people. A single-rail design is not itself a sign of a low-quality PSU.
Get a modular PSU if possible, as it will help eliminate extra wires to get in the way of cooling. Ignore the claims by PC Power & Cooling that modular cables create more resistance due to corrosion of contacts. The additional resistance is negligible.
A single 12 volt rail PSU just has one output circuit which generates 12 volts. All the various connectors which supply 12 volts are hooked to that one output. This kind of PSU will work just fine with a modern computer as long as it can deliver the wattage. That's true even if the motherboard requires the extra 4 pin or 8 pin 12 volt CPU connector or if your video card requires the 6 pin PCI-Express connector. As long as your single 12 volt rail PSU has all of those extra connectors and sufficient wattage then things will work properly.
Multiple independent 12 volt rails PSU
A multiple independent 12 volt rails PSU has more than one 12 volt rail. Each of the 12 volt rails has its own separate circuitry. Each of the 12 volt power connectors on the PSU cables is hooked up to one of the 12 volt rails. Since this is merely a PC PSU rather than a "real" one, the manufacturers often don't feel obligated to tell you which connector is hooked to which rail.
One reason to have multiple separate 12 volt rails is to improve the load regulation and noise on the rail. When you connect an active load to a voltage rail you tend to end up with a noisy rail which jumps around a lot. It's not a nice flat voltage. It varies. The more active loads you hook to a rail the messier it gets. So building a PSU with independent 12 volt rails improves the "cleanness" of the power on each rail. Normally this is only done if you have some circuitry which is extremely picky about the quality of its voltage rails because separate rails cost more money than a single rail.
By the way, in case you're ever tempted to hook the independent 12 volt rails together (I've seen people on the Internet who think this is a good idea), don't do it. Your 12 volt rails may have different ideas about what voltage they should set their rails to. One may be quite a bit different than another. They're separate rails, after all, and they have their own circuitry which controls the voltage. They're bound to vary a bit. And if they're just a little different then you can draw lots of current when you connect them together because each of the output circuits try to force the voltage on the same wires to a different value. That causes either a nice orderly shutdown from the over-current protection or smoke and sparks. There are some power supplies which have switches which allow you to gang the rails together. Once you've set the switch properly it's okay to connect them.
To properly compare power supplies, wattage claims must state the maximum ambient temperature for continuous, full-load operation. Unfortunately for the consumer, this information is usually withheld, opening the door for manufacturers to exaggerate their wattage claims. They do so by assuming an unrealistic ambient temp of only 25°C (77°F), even though the actual internal power supply temp is at least 40°C (104°F). Since the proper full-load rating is 15°C higher for home use and 25°C higher for industrial use, these power supplies produce 33%-50% less power than their advertised ratings.
Conclusion, if you think you need a 650 get an 850 or more. I do use in my builds modular and multi rail PSU's. We use them in Overclocking competitions and in everyday use. I feel its been proven to me that multi rails are better then a single rail. Currently PC&C is the only company making single rail PSU's that I am aware of. If this is such an improvement over multi rails why is there only one company doing this oposed to the many makers of PSU's
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PSU rated power has little to do with how much load the computer draws from the wall. The two things that affect power draw from the wall socket is the PSU efficiency rating (80% or higher is the goal) and the sum total of the components in the computer.
For example, let's say your computer parts all together draw 200w. You have an 80% efficient PSU. That means your total power draw at the wall is 200/0.8, or approx 250w. That holds true whether or not you have a 500w or a 1000w PSU.
I think that 750w PC Power and Cooling one you linked to would probably be fine. Make sure it has the connectors you want and just to be sure you should make sure it's on both nvidia's SLI list and AMD/ATI's crossfire list, but other than that it looks just fine to me.
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PSU rated power has little to do with how much load the computer draws from the wall. The two things that affect power draw from the wall socket is the PSU efficiency rating (80% or higher is the goal) and the sum total of the components in the computer.
For example, let's say your computer parts all together draw 200w. You have an 80% efficient PSU. That means your total power draw at the wall is 200/0.8, or approx 250w. That holds true whether or not you have a 500w or a 1000w PSU.
I think that 750w PC Power and Cooling one you linked to would probably be fine. Make sure it has the connectors you want and just to be sure you should make sure it's on both nvidia's SLI list and AMD/ATI's crossfire list, but other than that it looks just fine to me.
Amp's are what needs to be rated here. Video cards esp have amp needs and if they are not met it does not matter if you have a 1800 watt PSU if the rail(s) your GPU is connected to does not have ample Amps you will have failure no exceptions.
My reference to the wall wiring is simple... wire gauges have ratings the wiring in your wall is rated far above the current it carries, in PSU's the wires are of smaller gage and will get warm as they approach their load limits. PCP&C pushes the gage limits of the ratings (compair small gage jumper cables to expensive large gage, the wire does get hot on small gage jumper cables).
Power & Ground Cable Specs Absolute Max
Wire Gauge Capacity Amperage (amps)
1/0 350
2 225
4 150
8 100
10 60
12 40
14 25
16 15
Suggested for house wiring
Gauge Breaker Amps
14 15
12 20
10 30
8 40
6 55
4 70
2 95
1/0 150
2/0 175
3/0 200
PCP&C is using 14, 16, 18 gage wires and in some cases smaller. They all carry access to all the Amps on the single rail. Let me ask this would you wire your home with wire that is not rated for the amps it is carring? Does not matter be it ac or dc voltage amps are amps. My eVGA GTX 280 Superclocked requires 40 amps if I run an SLI configuration with two of these needing 80 amps just for the video card PCP&C having only 60amps on the 12v rail total on the Silencer 750. Again Amps are what matters here on the rail(s) not watts.
Can someone explain to me how 10 gage wire is used on Sata drives if it has a 60amp 12v rail or even 12 gage wire for 40amp. These are not my ratings but AWG ratings. Again the PSU manufactures have gone over the 20 amp cap per 12v rail on many models but this is just a recommendation and actually a rule that is not enforced or policed. But I certainly do not want to have 16 gage wires with access to 60 amps.
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My 750W PCP&C PSU runs great and it hasn't burnt a wire yet. They are some of the best PSU's on the market. Either the 610 or the 750 would be more than adequate.
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Can someone explain to me how 10 gage wire is used on Sata drives if it has a 60amp 12v rail or even 12 gage wire for 40amp.
Ummm... because the device only DRAWS lower amperage. It's not like the PSU PUSHES full amperage to every device.
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Ummm... because the device only DRAWS lower amperage. It's not like the PSU PUSHES full amperage to every device.
Agreed it only draws what is needed but if something goes wrong with the PSU thats a ton of amps available on those small wires
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Fulmar found 9800GTX for $150 and I found 9800GT for $109. Just an update on video card deals!!!! BTW ATI 4650 is at $80. All nice cards for AH
9800GTX $150
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143137
9800GT $109
http://www.amazon.com/EVGA-512-P3-N975-AR-e-GeForce-512MB-Graphics/dp/B001DDYSLA/ref=sr_1_1/185-6398495-8208161?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1228890931&sr=1-1
GTX260 way above $200 eagle.....Post link if at all posssible
ATI 4650 $75
http://www.xpcgear.com/ea1.html
Great deal on PSU!!!! $54
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703005&nm_mc=EMC-IGNEFL120408&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL120408-_-PowerSupplies-_-L1B-_-17703005
This PSU got a great rating!
If you went PSU $54 + ATI 4650 $75 and sound card $99 you would be $228..... Nice quick fix! The ATI 4650 will be more than ample for AH!
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I posted in that other thread 2 for $219, but this morning they have the MSI GTX 260 for $199 again.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127361
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Very nice eagl!!! Great deals on vid cards as of late.
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Well, I updated the PSU and I'm having the same problem (intermittent crashing), reading up it may be because the PCI-E slots are 1.0 and can't support the vid card I got.
Suffice to say, I'm not putting anymore money into this machine, I'm pretty well disgusted already.
Thanks for all the assistance, gents, even if it didn't turn out as well as I hoped. :)
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Well, I updated the PSU and I'm having the same problem (intermittent crashing), reading up it may be because the PCI-E slots are 1.0 and can't support the vid card I got.
Suffice to say, I'm not putting anymore money into this machine, I'm pretty well disgusted already.
Thanks for all the assistance, gents, even if it didn't turn out as well as I hoped. :)
The PCIe 1.0 and 2.0 cards and slots are cross compatible except in very rare instances so that's probably not your problem. The solution may be as simple as re-formatting. It's worth a try and doesn't cost anything.
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The solution may be as simple as re-formatting. It's worth a try and doesn't cost anything.
Did that too, no luck.
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Good Luck Den... Hope you get this fixed!
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Yes good luck with your PS.
I just upgraded my memory to 4 gigs from 2. I noted the comment previously that applications are limited to 2g so It might seem this was a waste. My thinking was that in game memory resources would be much less with everything loaded. This is because while the game is limited to 2 gigs, the operating system needs some memory too. This has turned out to be true. I now have about 1400Megs available for windows and the full 2 GByte for AH2.
I think with the price of ram being what it is (70 bucks with a 30 dollar rebate for Corsair DDR2 Dominator) for 4 gigs it doesn't make sense not to upgrade. I think you pick up some additional headroom for cheap.
INFIDELz>
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Yes good luck with your PS.
I just upgraded my memory to 4 gigs from 2. I noted the comment previously that applications are limited to 2g so It might seem this was a waste. My thinking was that in game memory resources would be much less with everything loaded. This is because while the game is limited to 2 gigs, the operating system needs some memory too. This has turned out to be true. I now have about 1400Megs available for windows and the full 2 GByte for AH2.
I think with the price of ram being what it is (70 bucks with a 30 dollar rebate for Corsair DDR2 Dominator) for 4 gigs it doesn't make sense not to upgrade. I think you pick up some additional headroom for cheap.
INFIDELz>
Infidelz
When you are playing Aces High. Can you press <CONTROL> + I keys.
Please either post a screen shot or simply state how much SYSTEM MEMORY Aces High says it's using?
Thank you.