Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: PFactorDave on December 04, 2008, 11:31:21 PM
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Have taken it upon myself to learn the 109 series as much as possible this tour.
After a few days of flying the 109s almost exclusively, I think I am starting to get a feel for the handling characteristics of the various models. So far, I am gravitating most toward the F model and the G14 model. The F because it has the closest "feel" to the nimble Japanese planes that I have been flying (KI84 and A6Ms). I find I like the G14 for its powerful engine.
I've tried the K4, but I'm having a really hard time getting used to the "tater".
So, today I flew mostly the G14 with the 20mm hub cannon rather then the 30mm and seemed to have some measure of success.
So, down to the questions... Had a short PM conversation with Gavagai (many thanks for taking the time :salute ) about "tater" convergence and fully understand that setting the 30mm to a fairly short range can aid in over all aiming... But I find myself more interested in mastering the 20mm gun packages, for a couple of reasons. Number one, because they seem to be less "different" then the Japanese gun packages that I am used to (not to say that they are the same, just that overall the tater is radically different), in hopes that switching between the Jap/German lines won't completely screw my gunnery up. And number two, the 20mm hub+nose MGs is fairly consistant throughout the 109 series (yes the F has the smaller MGs then the others, but the hub cannon is the primary killer anyway and it is pretty much universal).
So, I'm curious if other 109 drivers prefer the 20mm cannon and if so, what convergence settings seem to work best. So far, I have my 20mm set out to about 350 and my MGs at 650...
Also, I'm wondering what (if any) advantages the 109K has over the G14... Assume they both have the 30mm hub cannon, no gondolas etc... I'm inclined to learn mostly in the G14 simply because I can choose a 20mm cannon (for ballistics reasons), but wonder if I am hamstringing myself and if perhaps I should bite the bullet and try to learn the "tater"... Or maybe learn the series with the 20mm, then once mastered try "tatering"...
Thoughts?
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I prefer the 20mm gun package simply because I can kill from 600 yards out with it when the target is lined up well, but with the 30mm I cannot. The ammo lasts longer, it's easier to hit a squirming target and a miss with a burst of 20mm is not a disaster like it is with the 30mm. The MK 108 is for buff killing. Like soda says in his evaluation of the 109K-4, taterizing a fighter is overkill. The only advantage the 30mm cannon gives you in fighter-vs-fighter combat is the one hit kill during a very quick snap shot.
That said, the reason for learning it is to fly the 109K-4 instead of the G-14. It's 20mph faster on the deck, and that gap only increases with altitude. It accelerates better, too, and outclimbs the G-14 at most altitudes (except for a narrow range of 5-7k ft). If you don't have a drop tank rack, you can run down P-51s at all altitudes, which is fun. :D Be careful not to engage in tight combat with 100% fuel in the K-4 because it's a real brick at that weight (re-learned that lesson yesterday). Get it down to at least 75-65% gas before you attempt anything fancy.
In the G-14 you should have your mg's and cannon converge at the same range. Why would you do otherwise? I set them both out to 400 yards because that's the range at which I'm usually shooting to kill.
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Also, I'm wondering what (if any) advantages the 109K has over the G14... Assume they both have the 30mm hub cannon, no gondolas etc... I'm inclined to learn mostly in the G14 simply because I can choose a 20mm cannon (for ballistics reasons), but wonder if I am hamstringing myself and if perhaps I should bite the bullet and try to learn the "tater"... Or maybe learn the series with the 20mm, then once mastered try "tatering"...
Put simply...you are "hamstringing" yourself. The G14 is a powerful plane, but it is fiddlesticks in power compared to the K4. The K4 has better speed at both wep and non-wep, slightly better climb, and better performance at altitude. One interesting thing about the G14 is that performance drops considerably without wep. Far more than non-wep performance drop in other planes, even other 109's. On the deck I believe G14 top speed without wep is actually slower than a G2. This is limited in importance by the 9 minutes of wep standard on all 109's, but it bears consideration...once your wep runs out, so does pretty much the only reason you chose the G14 to begin with.
I'm not saying you shouldn't fly the G14, I believe it has great style points and is a great option if you're looking for a powerful 109 without the tater. The view over the cowling in the G14 is my favorite. I just believe that there is no reason other than personal preference to fly the G14 over the K4 if you are using the tater on both.
To get to some of your other points, I'm sure gavagai told you the importance of taking a different type of shot with the 30mm. You should be frequently looking for full profile shots, preferably while the bandit is in a break turn, while you have enough speed (you don't need a ton, in the K4) to go vert if you miss your shot, ready to come down again. You will have almost no success in the traditional "bank with bandit, pull nose and lead" shot. A good thing to remember while shooting the tater is to keep your wings level as much as possible when looking for firing solutions. You want the bandit to cross your gunsights, not fancy your lead to the unforgiving whims of the tater.
You are correct about the mg+cannon combo in the 109's being somewhat similiar to the Ki-84's configuration. Back when I would cycle between aircraft frequently, I would never have much difficulty switching from Ki-84/Ki-61 shots to 109 shots.
But getting back to the 109's, don't feel compelled to be either a tater guy or a 20mm guy. You can switch between both fairly easily, as long as you remember to look for a different "type" of shot with the tater, you will find that your gunnery won't get confused between 20mm and 30mm.
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To get to some of your other points, I'm sure gavagai told you the importance of taking a different type of shot with the 30mm. You should be frequently looking for full profile shots, preferably while the bandit is in a break turn, while you have enough speed (you don't need a ton, in the K4) to go vert if you miss your shot, ready to come down again. You will have almost no success in the traditional "bank with bandit, pull nose and lead" shot. A good thing to remember while shooting the tater is to keep your wings level as much as possible when looking for firing solutions. You want the bandit to cross your gunsights, not fancy your lead to the unforgiving whims of the tater.
Actually, we didn't go into that much detail, but this advice is 100% correct. All of what trotter describes here is intended to get a tiny snap shot with the bandit filling your gunsight at very close range. The duration of the firing solution is irrelevant.
Mostly, you're trying to induce someone into a break turn to avoid your attack. Normally you would go for a lag pursuit to set up a tracking shot, but instead you execute a fairly extreme lead pursuit, roll your wings level and use the elevator to line up a shot as they cross your view.
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If you don't have a drop tank rack, you can run down P-51s at all altitudes, which is fun.
I think I can say with some certainty that chasing down 51's in a K4 is one of my favorite things in this game. You can tell when it's a newer 51 pilot, lured into thinking the mustang "PwNZ" all other planes, and that he will simply run with ease. It's the kind of slow overtake where you can tell at first the pony pilot thinks he's getting away...
Then the realization that the 109 is not fading, but actually gaining. Slowly...just barely perceptible...
The mustang pilot keeps hitting WEP but it's already on! "WTF???", he thinks.
Once he starts to break, it's over. The K4 can saddle up and wait for the tater shot of his choice. You can make the pony pilot sweat it out as long as you want, maybe let him try to learn some ACM for once.
Not to say ponies are always an easy kill in a K4, against a good pilot a pony is actually a huge threat, especially for the first few turns. But the ponies that run...there are few things better than catching them when they think they can't be caught.
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I set 30mm convergence at 650. I landed a 3 kill sorite in a 190A-8 and a 5 kill sortie in a 109K-4 tonight. One of the K-4 kills was a Pony D from 800 yards.
Set a convergence you are familiar with and learn the ballistics.
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I set 30mm convergence at 650. I landed a 3 kill sorite in a 190A-8 and a 5 kill sortie in a 109K-4 tonight. One of the K-4 kills was a Pony D from 800 yards.
Set a convergence you are familiar with and learn the ballistics.
But the issue is that the "tater" ballistics are sooo absolutely foreign when compared to the other weapons. Do we learn to lob the tater? Or are we better off learning the 20mm Hub guns, knowing that they aren't enormously different then the big guns on other fighters we fly? (ie the KI84/N1k/A6M)
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In the G2 I have cannon set to 275 and mg's to 250. I do this because when I'm pulling a little bit of lead in a turn, I want the heavier cannon arcing infront of the mg's more so that it G forces don't pull back and away from my mg convergence. I also don't set them to far apart because I want them converging in the same general area on a 1G shot.
If I had the option for a 30mm hub cannon on the G2 (to bad that never occurred in real life) I would greatly consider taking that over the 20mm cannon. The ability to kill in one quick shot is wonderful, and in the G2, a lot of my shots come after reversing on an opponent in the vertical, and when rolling over and down into them, a brief snap shot with the 20/mg most of the times isn't enough to get an immediate kill. Once I get on their six (supposing I do) if really makes no difference to me what gun package I have then, as I could most likely finish the job.
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But the issue is that the "tater" ballistics are sooo absolutely foreign when compared to the other weapons. Do we learn to lob the tater? Or are we better off learning the 20mm Hub guns, knowing that they aren't enormously different then the big guns on other fighters we fly? (ie the KI84/N1k/A6M)
Learn the tater. You'll be glad you did.
I've been able to get soo many fraction of a second fatal snapshot kills in the A8 and K4 that wouldn't be possible with the 20mm that it's well worth learning. One hit, one kill.
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Learn the tater. You'll be glad you did.
Really? I'm not so sure. Most of the time I expect to find myself flying a KI84. Something tells me that the "tater" will only be a benefit if I NEVER fly anything else... I really don't want to fly the 109 series as a primary platform, only as a high ENY platform, when the KI84 is locked out...
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For what it's worth...
I flew the k4 a lot harder and more aggressive than a lot of people are recommending in these 09 threads. Being able to end the fight quickly with a snapshot definitely helps when you're choosing to get in against something like a Japanese bird, spit 9, or multi con engagement. If you're really interested in the 09, then try the k4. Don't let the cannon intimidate you, just get closer. :) It's hands down the best of the series and can beat any other plane in the set. You just want to kill some planes quicker than others... :D You're not going to lose your ability to hit with the 20mm, in fact it will improve too as you will recognize better shots and work for the right angles. The tater is also on other birds, so learning it allows you access to those planes too
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I find the K4 has superior stall characteristics to the G14. When very slow, the G14 can slip into an abrupt stall to the left, more so than the K4. The previous posters have covered the majority of the other differences pretty thoroughly.
I enjoy flying the G14; it's fun to set up the long, slow leading shots with the 20mm. Sometimes a break from the half second crossing shots with the K4 is needed!
Really you should fly both, as they're great fun in their own way. Plus, there is nothing quite like cursing all those slow leading shots from 400+ you get when you're in the K4 (while wishing you had taken the G14). The next sortie you can take up the G14 and count all the assists you get when the 20mm doesnt finish off those snapshots you wanted so badly earlier (but will invariably appear just to torment you). ;-)
The F is a great plane too, nothing like turning inside spits and zeroes (just be sure to use rudder and keep the ball centered). A coordinated 109 can turn on a dime.
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The 30mm is difficult to shoot with no matter what convergence you use because of the drop, you have to remember that setting convergence on a gun like this only really helps when your flying straight and level behind them, even then it will not hit the same spot consitantly use the .target command to see what i mean the greater the distance to target the more dispersed the grouping of shots becomes. If you imagine the convergence arc coming from the gun the moment you roll the plane the dot on the gunsight is useless same goes for flying straight down there are too many variables for to be able to set the gun up and say the majority of the time where i put the dot is exactly where it will hit. The gunsight is a reference point for shooting, becoming better will only come by experience trail and error and practice. Set you convergence to whatever you want and then stick with them and learn them.
I can see the logic in setting the guns short to reduce the size of the convergence arc and make it more consistant but then again IMO i also think the extra bit of lift in the shot can be handy for close full profile shots where i cant get my nose any higher after changing to the shorter convergences I lost a lot of that kind of shooting ability.
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For what it's worth...
I flew the k4 a lot harder and more aggressive than a lot of people are recommending in these 09 threads. Being able to end the fight quickly with a snapshot definitely helps when you're choosing to get in against something like a Japanese bird, spit 9, or multi con engagement. If you're really interested in the 09, then try the k4. Don't let the cannon intimidate you, just get closer. :) It's hands down the best of the series and can beat any other plane in the set. You just want to kill some planes quicker than others... :D You're not going to lose your ability to hit with the 20mm, in fact it will improve too as you will recognize better shots and work for the right angles. The tater is also on other birds, so learning it allows you access to those planes too
Thats pretty sound advice ^ btw
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do a search for agent360's 109 threads. They helped me alot..... I mean they help me alot.
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do a search for agent360's 109 threads. They helped me alot..... I mean they help me alot.
here is agents training films thread
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,235050.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,235050.0.html)
and the thread about aiming the 30mm by agent
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,238513.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,238513.0.html)
and a more in depth conversation about odd angle shooting solutions
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,249256.15.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,249256.15.html)
now Dave it's bad enough that you correct my grammar! but if you use this information to shoot me down as well.......weell den ima goonna learn may sum propah engrish an gives ta u such a nastah ash chewen heah on da bords!
<SALUTE> and happy hunting
FLOTSOM
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If you like 109 nimbleness Dave, try a G2 w/o gondollas or any ord/DT. The F is still a beter turner, and maybe a little beter at accelerating out of a turn, but the G2 imo is a F on steroids (it doesn't turn as good, but still accelerates well out fo a turn, and more importantly to me in the LWA, it has a faster top speed). I have had some fun sorties in a F though, scrambling from an airfield under attack by a huge horde of enemy turn-n-burners and taking down 3-5 before getting picked (or having to land for ammo).
Regarding the cannon packages, you're probabley just naturaly picking up that the 20mm Mg151 has the best ballistics, rate of fire, and quantity of ammo for 109 cannons.
Copypasta ala Babalon from the other 109 thread:
"On the G2 and earlier, my cowls are around 175-125, and my 20mm cannon to 225-200. On the later models, my cowls are around 200 give or take and my cannons around 300-250.
The cowls are already mounted pretty close together on the nose and have great ballistics, and especially with the earlier smaller caliber cowl guns, they really only do damage at closer ranges and in a nice tight grouping. If you're shooting your cowls into a wing for more than 3 solid seconds at 200-400 yards, then start messing with your convergences, because I can vouch that the cowl guns are lethal when properly converged and used at the proper ranges in bursts.
The cannons are a totally different bird for the 109s than the cowls, other than they are placed close to the cowls on the nose. 109s feature either the 20mm MG/FF (with only 60 rounds and horrible ballistics and rate of fire :furious ), the 20mm Mg151 (plenty of ammo with 150 or 200 rounds, best ballistics of any German 109 cannons IMO and the fastest rate of fire :aok ), or the much feared 30mm Mk108 (only 65 rounds and a slow rate of fire, and ballisticaly it's better than a 20mm MG/FF IMO, but still pretty bad). Each handles differently, and really the best practice/feel you can get for the first time is to go in offline mode and unload them each a couple times into some drones without any cowl guns."
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I talked with Grizz on what convergence I should set, and here is were I place my package for all planes. 375 for the cannons and 450 for the MGs. Here's why, you are not usually going to shoot 600 or more. There going to be rather close, within 400 to 200. the best shot is a stright shot that takes no lead at all. That's why it's set that way. I take no lead on shots 200 to 400, which just makes it point and click.
If you don't believe me, look at Grizz's K/D ratio from last tour, it's about 14+ K/D. Mines not as good, but I know it works. But like they say, one could work for one, but not the other.
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While Grizz is a nice guy and a decent fighter, that k/d is not very representative of anything valuable.
Convergence is as much about personal preference as it is anything else. If I was to set my 50cals to 450yards for example, I'd be hampering myself. I like to get in close and my bullets would end up going around the target! I set 50cals to 300yards. That way they're still hitting when I get in close, but they've also got enough range to clear my wingman for example.
My cowl mg's in the 09 I have at 300. 09s 20mm also at 300. Tater at 200. However because they are nose mounted, even if they're set at 300 yards I will take the occasional shot on a runner at 800. Mostly just to get them to turn...where I need the ability to take lead shots....It's not always feasible to unload my g's in a fight.
I'll also take the occasional tater shot farther out, but it's usually luck if I hit outside of 400. Despite what some people are claiming on the boards, I've yet to see anyone consistently land long distance tater shots on a moving target. There's too much variation in the rounds trajectory...
convergence is a dead horse though... lots of threads all with the same info.
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Like I said, it may work for some, but not for others. <S>
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Like I said, it may work for some, but not for others. <S>
yargh k/d just mean do u bnz more or tnb more.
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There is nothing more satisfying than killing something with a tater. K4 is the best all around of the 109's.
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If you fly a G14 over the K4...and you dont take the 30mm...you are just limiting yourself. It only takes one mistake on your enemys part and it is over, with the 30mm.
Dont be afraid to get them slow, use vertical maneuvers that the K4 can pull off due to its power, that other planes cant...pop some flaps out, push the plane.
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There are a lot of great posts about 109s here. For me I have two that I fly more than any of the others. I am decent enough in both of them. The 109F4 is probably one of the funnest and most rewarding planes IMHO. It is great taking down the dreaded spit 16 with an out dated plane fighting the spits fight. I have to agree the K4 is the best of the lot. It has so many options. It can get you into the fight fast, has the power to kill with short snap shots, it can climb long after others fall away, and if you need it, the acceleration and speed to get you out of trouble.
www.aceshighmovies.com (http://www.aceshighmovies.com) has a couple downloads available narrated by Agent360. I just watched the films tonight and found out just how much I do not know about this beast of an airplane.
From a reformed spit driver who now sees the light of the 109s, I cannot believe I ever thought the 109 an easy target.
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If you fly a G14 over the K4...and you dont take the 30mm...you are just limiting yourself. It only takes one mistake on your enemys part and it is over, with the 30mm.
I fly with the 20mm solely because i get annoyed being d400 behind someone and not being able to hit with the 30mm. I wouldn't say it limits me to an extent where it's a disadvantage, for me i see it as a trade off because i with the 20mm i have a longer range. Though there are certainly times that i knew if i had 30mm that con would be dead instead of flying off with no visible damage. With my flying style perhaps i would be better off with the 30mm but i really do get frustrated being d400 behind someone and not being able to hit them.
I've been through my archive of films and kept around a dozen of 109 flights with the 20mm that were interesting/fun. i'll post them up some time so you can all laugh at my flying style and my over zealous throttle control. :D
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I agree with you on that thrila...I hate straight 6 shots with the 30mm. My flying style usually does not put me in that position though. I find if you make yourself a target(lower than the other guy) and force overshoots, you get a lot of snapshot oppourtunities and that is where I love the 30mm.
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I love the G-14's 20mm, great balistics and rate of fire, plenty of ammo too. It will also get the job done with a good shot into another fighter. The only times I curse having the 20mm instead of the 30mm is when I stumble upon a formation or two of buffs. The 30mm is just awesome for zooming in and out fast enough to not take any damage on buffs while inflicting some serious damage without gondies (though gondies are great for buff hunting too).
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Yeah, i hate it sometimes when i see a load of buffs knowing there's little i can do about it with a sole 20mm
Here's an example that i wish i had a 30mm, i made a p47 overshoot several times but didn't even damage him. http://www.4shared.com/file/76206792/6acf8c61/109vp47yakt.html (http://www.4shared.com/file/76206792/6acf8c61/109vp47yakt.html)
I've been through my films and thrown 10 or so into a zip file, you can check out my flying style and see the merits and demerits of having the 20mm i.e easy tracking shots up 400, overshoots that would have been kills had i taken the 30mm or hitting a con with a fair few hits but seeing no damage. I kill fairly frequently in overshoots, it feels like it depends on if i'm lucky that day or not.
I'm about halfway through looking through my films i'll probably throw some more in at same stage. MOst of these are between 6 months- 1 year old, i haven't flown very frequently for several tours.
http://www.4shared.com/file/76148072/62c81437/AH109films.html (http://www.4shared.com/file/76148072/62c81437/AH109films.html)
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I have WAY more "luck" in the G14 with tater compared to the K4.. go figure. Maybe i just put too much faith in the K4 power when im in it, or maybe there is something else. All my settings in the g14 and k4 are the same.
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109 link wasn't working for some reason and i cant edit my post.
Hopefully this'll work- http://www.4shared.com/file/76527298/53a8a329/_3__AH109films.html (http://www.4shared.com/file/76527298/53a8a329/_3__AH109films.html)