Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: snafu on September 01, 2001, 05:28:00 AM
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Hi All,
I have got to say at the start of this post I think the view system in AH is 2nd to non and vastly superior to the head pivoting on a stick type view systems in most other sims. Even the "Head out of cockpit" ability is fine with me as IMO it simulates straining in the harness for a better view and is generally I only use these views for very short amounts at a time, but the 6 check view is biologically impossible. I can accept the 45degree rear lookup (Just) but the straight back 6 view no way. In a scissors fight for example you can control the fight completely by flying using the 6 view at all times. This should not be possible in a real aircraft you would contantly be looking back left then right and it would be much harder work. Even without this view the other rearward views are customisable enough to leave only a very small blind spot and this is IMO how if should be.
Just my 2c
TTFN
snafu
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a little expiriment:
sitting with my back to my chair; i can TURN my head about 90-100° either way,but i can look at about another 40°. So yes,it's not possible to look directly backwards.
sitting away from the back of my chair i can look almost look about 180°.
btw,both of these methods corse quiet alot of muscle strain,and crap depth perception
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hey if you want that much realism why dont you place a canister of petrol by your monitor with a spark plug connected to it set to spark when you get a fire on your plane and then put straps all over you
that way you can experience the delights of REAL explosions and panic as you scramble to get clear? :D
ok that came out in more bad taste than i intended! :p
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Sitting rigid in a chair in no way simulates how WWII pilots were strapped into in thier cokcpits. I literally wince ever time I see someone say, "take a chair....." whether used to support or deride the "virtual" 6 view.
I recommend folks go to a museum that has "Open cockpit day" and have the guys who flew the things strap you in and then see can for yourself what the views are like. I can vouch that the views are pretty darn spot on for the F6F, P47 and F4U. And we do not have rear view mirrors to boot. Correspondance and talking to other WWII aircraft pilots show that they did not strap themselves in as if they were on a space shuttle launch either and they had full mobility of thier upper torso, shoulders, neck and head. AH just does not model pilot fatigue nore the strain of G's in turns when looking anywhere but forward.
Flying the CT last night on the Axis side I did find that some of the 109's DO have much too liberal of a "head out of the side of the cockpit" ability for checking 7,5 and 6 views. So perhaps some views in some planes are too liberal. But a global "6" view removal ala WB III and WW2O is bullsh&t and not real at all, imo.
I'm however a firm supporter of not being able to go from a 7 view to a 5 view unless you go all the way around the front first.
Westy
[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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get rid of the head out of cockpit stuff for all planes but do not get rid of 6 view
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Hazed,
How do I arrange the spark plug and fuel to detonate at the right time? Guess I should wear leather to make sure I burn correctly.
:D
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AH Snap view + Head movements makes it one of the most advanced and pleasant view systems amongst all other flight sims.
I mean we're all like ".. huh..?? pu.. pu.. padlock?? Wha.. whaz tha.. that?.." It puts those flimsy easy-mode 'padlock' sims to shame :D
But yes, sometimes I do think it's too extreme. I think it is possible to squirm and lean in the cockpit to get as best a 6 view as you can, like the way we use it in AH. Look behind, move the head to left or right... this obvioulsy would simulate the status of "looking over one's shoulder..".
But the problem happens when you look back, move head to one side(¡ç or ¡æ), then move head back ( ¡é) again. This would be like turning your head to look over shoulder, than from there, lean your body all the way front so it hits the instrumental panel.. Presto! The super "Wide Vision" 6 view as we have.
I agree with Zig. Head movements are fine, but limit it only to range and bounds of canopy glass.. plus, limit head movements in 6 view more strictly so looking over the shoulder gives you 6 view, but very 'uncomfortable' one. (I'd say limit the ¡ékey when lloking back)
Plus!
Give planes with sliding canopies the advantage of opening canopies during fight :D. I've heard that in the Eastern front, where most fights were fighting at low alts, most of the LaGG pilots usually fought with his canopy open :D. It'd be even better if we can see this in AH. Some planes would be able to fly canopies open at low alts, and peer over the cockpit :)
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OK point conceeded. :D No not really.... In a round about way Kweassa would put my point accross better than I did. Perhaps losing the 6 view altogether was not what I really intended to say. It is the adjustment of the view which I find hard to accept. Westy Yes I have sat in a few cockpits, Unfortunately all replicas (But Heya replica is ... well a replica so it should be right). I am aware that pilots were not strapped in ala the space shuttle but equally they could not get out of there seats and walk around the cockpit either and they had to be strapped in tight enough to maintain good control during positive - negative G transitions. I always understood that the lower torso was strapped in fairly tightly and the body movement was mainly from the waist up. I think it is the vertical head movement when coupled with the 6 view which is the problem.
Re visiting the AH spit cockpit for example
Here is the default 6 view
(http://www.btinternet.com/~snaffers/bits/mod5v.jpg)
Here it is modified without raising the head position
(http://www.btinternet.com/~snaffers/bits/mod5v0.jpg)
And finally with the head position raised
(http://www.btinternet.com/~snaffers/bits/mod5V1.jpg)
I would prefer two 6 views, One looking either side. ie another view similar to pic 2 above but looking over your right shoulder.
You can easily control a 6 attack (So why do I keep getting shot down) :D with the current system without ever having to move youre head. I maintain this is not possible in a real fighter. I accept that mirrors were used but I understood there usefulness as anything other than a quick SA awareness aid was always limited. You certainly did not get the clarity or field of vision available in our 6 view, because of vibration etc.
Hazed...
Oh never mind.....
TTFN
snafu
[ 09-02-2001: Message edited by: snafu ]
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Ok if you want it that realistic when you install AH you should have to enter your personal height.
And then AH will limit your allowable vertical head adjustment accordingly :)
Obviously all allied pilots were 6 ft 8 inch tall, so i guess they would have an inbuilt advantage over the Axis 5 ft 1 inch tall pilots :)
Seriously though i do agree that the head adjustments should at some time be limited to reasonable within cockpit movements.
But after all it is adjustable and if its not to your liking adjust it until it is. You don't have to use the full adjustment now do you ?
Or is the real problem that of forcing your enemies to the same limitations ?
If so then adapt as you would to combat an enemy planes different FM characteristics.
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Originally posted by 214thCavalier:
Ok if you want it that realistic when you install AH you should have to enter your personal height.
No but I do think it should be realistic to the point of human limitations. i.e. different view relationships to each other.(With helmet, goggles etc obscuring peripheral vision I would be suprised if any of the 6 views obtainable in AH fighters were "Realistic"). But Hey it's no big thing and and generally apart from this one view I think AH have an excellent compromise between ther realistic approach of say IL2 (Which I like but find hard work) and WB, CFS/2 (Which I dislike and find hard work).
I don't accept the "If you disagree with it don't use it" approach, It is not realistic to put purposely put yourself at a disadvantage with other pilots.
I find this sim quite hard enough thank you.
:eek:
Anyway "Puts soapbox away, Admits defeat, crawls back under rock" ;)
TTFN
snafu
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If the right and left rear views were able to cover just a little more than they do now I'd be all for it.
Afterall even linda blair had to actually turn her head to view 6, not just transfer eyes from front of head to rear through the skull
SKurj
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I think you'll find a lot, if not most, of the aircraft had seats that were adjustable vertically to compensate for different pilot heights. Rudder pedals adjusted for leg length as well.
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...And I suppose all you geniuses figure everyone owns a brand new joystick with extra buttons laying around unused.
WW2OL uses the "no six view" thing, so does WB3. It iritates me to no end that I have to do some funky, multibutton crap with one hand OFF the joystick throttle to be able to do something so natural as turning my simulated head.
You can take your idea and throw it in the lake, and if need be I will throw you in after it.
Hans.
P.S. 8-way hat switches are not the answer. They're not on my list of favorite inventions. You always hit the WRONG view direction when using one. A less sensitve 4-way hat works better.
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Something wrong with your thumb?
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Oh, and yes, game maker's should not ALWAYS set their standards to the highest possible set of devices players can afford.. but we aren't exactly asking for head-set virtual reality goggles or something, are we?
Players do need to equip themselves with something suited for the task. If your joystick has so little buttons (how many buttons DOES it have? Two?) that you have to change the whole stick sets to use AH style 17-way view, that is a pity, but it's also definately your personal problem rather then something to be sincerely thought about considering our discussion on "6-views".
I use MS Sidewinder Pro 1, no force feedback. It's got a lot of buttons,granted, but really, one button to look "up" and one 8 way hat button is all it takes to use the view system efficiently.
Did you program the whole instrument panel onto your stick or something?
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WB3 does use the Linda Blair view, hell it even permits external view in fighters atm
SKurj
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Hey Kweassa,
17 views? There are actually 27 seperate views in AH. 8 level, 8 45 degree up, 8 45 degree down, straight up, straight down (Not much use apart for checking my underwear after a particularly hard fight). Plus you can also program the "hat forward" view (As opposed to the default no buttons pressed view forward view). I have set this up to raise my head position to follow planes which drop below the nose in the default view.
Originally posted by LtHans:
WW2OL uses the "no six view" thing, so does WB3. It iritates me to no end that I have to do some funky, multibutton crap with one hand OFF the joystick throttle to be able to do something so natural as turning my simulated head.
You can take your idea and throw it in the lake, and if need be I will throw you in after it.
Hans.
OK.... <Searches for soapbox>
So Hans, your solution to having to press to many buttons is to refer to sims which (Apparently) do not even provide a 6 view solution. (How realistic is that? I use a cyborg 3d and never have to press more than 2 buttons to look in any direction (Up,down,left,right,backwards right & up etc). and lets face it it's a cheap enough stick. I don't usually rise to comments like yours but..... If you cannot handle an 8 way hat switch I doubt very much if you would have the dexterity to throw me or my idea into any lake. Cyas up there (Check 6) :D
TTFN
snafu
[ 09-03-2001: Message edited by: snafu ]
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hmmm... I wonder how tight those pilots were really strapped in...? When you watch real footage the groundcrew seems to strap 'em in tight - chest straps and all (Makes sense if you consider they'd have better chances surviving a ditch that way, plus negative G forces combined with a roll may flop you around if you only have your legs strapped in...).
Quote from a German pilot commenting on the design of the Me109: "between wars we forgot to build planes with a 6-view..."
Another tidbit: it was harder for pilots to look over their right shoulder since they are holding the stick with their right hand (Pilots found it easier to bank left for the same reason :D
aww well, "any" view system will be more or less realistic so I guess AH's one is "ok"... The only view system I never ever want to come across again is EAW's one: ABSOLUTLY NO BLOCKED VIEW WHEN LOOKING BACKWARDS! PUKE!
whatever,
Effdub
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It wasn't that uncommon for WWII pilots to undo their sholder straps or even all of their straps while in flight . There are instances of pilots breaking their faces and loosing teeth on the instrument panel becuase they forgot to fasten thier seatbelts before landing .
[ 09-03-2001: Message edited by: Suave1 ]
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Oh I am sure you are right Suave1, but I bet as soon as a con was spotted those harnesses were snugged up. Once the fight was over the straps were likely loosened for the return trip.
Being able to shift around and look back while pulling 6gee, or while inverted is not a possibility IMO
I say lose direct 6 view
SKurj
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I believe anyone that can't see a 210 degree span while their back is firmly in place against a hard surface needs to see a chiropractor.
We've already got 9 different input combinations required to simply roll your eyes around in front of you without moving your head, but somehow this is making it too easy?
If you want an easier bounce, just lobby for invisible planes, it's more realistic.
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Friend Snafu:
Yer right, but usually we use default 8 directions, straight up, combination of straight up + 8 views, and finally, the hat forward alternately programmable forward view.. that would make 18.. thx for correcting.
Friend Effdub:
The bank left/turn left tendency is probably something which has more to do torque effect, but I guess ergonomics kick into action too..
........
The real problem is not whether or not it is possible if the human neck can crank back and look behind.. I definately think it is possible, even without straps to some extent. But the problem is when you crank your neck to look behind, then sit up straight as you can, raising your neck, THEN while head looking back, maintain neck height and lean body forward so the head moves along with it.. which gives you the "panoramic 6 view" we have in AH.
It is like we have two heads looking behind, each looking over one shoulder.
I say limit the max range of modifiable head movements in 6 view. Limit Left or right adjustment within bounds of canopy glass + decreased "Raise head" + decreased "Move head back"
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Fatty My suggestion is , if possible just increase the left/right rear view to the rear. You are right you can see your 6 that way, but only in your peripheral, and one side at a time, u cannot see "everything"
I don't see why it would be a big deal to give the player, a FWD, FWD left/right, left, right, and RR right/left. 7 instead of 8 and more realistic IMO
The 6 view we have now requires no head motion at all, just flip eyes in skull and look through clear and vacant cavity to the rear of the plane.
I can live with either way, i just can't deny this thread makes a point
SKurj
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I feel the need to post here:
I like the idea of having no direct-6 view. You should have to either look back+left, or back+ right. Essentially reversing yourself in your seat is not representative of WW2 air combat.
No, I don't own a joystick with a hat for views; I use the keyboard for views. I have NO difficulty at all working the views, and would have NO difficulty at all if there was no direct 6 view mode. IMO the keyboard is actually better for views than a hat anyway, you just have to use the correct keys for it (the numerical keypad is HORRIBLE for views). The hat is BEST used for head-movement in conjunction with keyboard-based view keys.
There are many reasons why an AH player using a crappy 2-button joystick are at a disadvantage. The view system is not among them.
Having a direct 6 view is not at all realistic. I am surprised that not more people in the AH community want it to be abolished, since unrealistic, arcade-like gameplay devices tend not to be welcome here. I have found that the views from back+left and back+right overlap--so technically a direct-6 view isn't even needed anyway. It just allows people to do things which are not possible in reality.
J_A_B
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But you're already limited simply by the field of view. Yes, your head can move up and down when looking back, but you're still limited to a fraction of what you would normally be able to see.
And that fraction field of view is a fraction of the clarity of what you would normally be able to see. Making it harder for people to see in such a limited view system to begin with is going away from realism.
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Il-2-ish 'swiveling look back' should help solve this problem out.
Limit head postion modifications while 6 view + 'swiveling look back' .. and we can program TWO 6 views. Turn head left, look over left shoulder and your vision is limited to the left half of 6 O'clock.. turn head right, look over right shoulder and it is limited to the right half of 6 O'clock.
This way unlike IL-2, we do have a 6 view.. but like Il-2, we have to swivel our head the other way around to check the other half of 6 O'clock.
With this feature implemented, Snap view head movement speeds should be increased.. but probably not a big necessity since you can always use Instant view mode.
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Here is something to consider....
A direct six view was possible in real life in probably most any plane. And so were "outside of cockpit" views.
Sure...just open the hatch/window!!! :D
Technology limits the reality a game like this can achieve because everything is "virtual" and much more mechanical than natural. We don't see this game in live 3D with depth perception, perifrial view, and we can't move our virtual eyes, neck, and body anywhere near as well or quick in the gazillion possible combinations that we can in Real Life, and the resolution of the game is no where near as good as we can see in real life.
So the bottom line is that the current view set is not realistic 100% but I think it is fair to say that it helps to balance out the other areas where technology is lacking. If you really want more realism in this game then you should be hitting bigger issues like full 100% real controls. Right now all we have is throttle, brakes, stick/rudder, trims, WEP, fuel and ordinance selection. These are only the basic things that the real pilots had to worry about during combat.
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Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the real problem with 6 view are radar settings. Being on the CT for some nights, I've been suffering bounce-a'plenty on a regular basis :o. Maybe, I don't know for real, 6 views are a bit too liberal, but still hard enough when you get rid of the Inflight Dot Radar - AWACS - JSTARS currently in MA.
If you do not have XXI century cabin setting displaying that you actually have a dot on your tail, It's not so easy to spot it with current AH views. And when you have short icon setting, It's crucial to do it properly.
Honestly, I'm not trying to hijack this thread into another one of the zillion radar threads, but I believe, based on my experience, that AH views are not that wonderful when you do not have early warning devices :)
Cheers,
Pepe
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typically discod, during combat the pilot would have one hand on stick, which contained fire buttons of course. Ordnance/gunsets would have been configured prior to engagement i'd assume. The other hand would be on throttle, which is in easy reach of trims, and flap controls. Tho I dunno if trims would be used much. The fighter pilot in the cockpit probably had a much more natural control setup than we do, he would just have to expend alittle more physical effort in using those controls.
opps he would have to release some controls to loosen his seat belt, take off goggles, and pivot in his seat so that he could see down both sides of the headrest, while pulling 4 gees, dropping a notch of flaps, and firewalling the throttle +)
SKurj
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People always assume that fighter pilots crank their shoulder straps down so tight that they can't move their shoulders. I've flown with an ex vietnam F-4 pilot in a super decathalon. His practice is to leave the shoulder straps somewhat loose, and tighten the lap belts to keep you from lifting out of yoru seat. That allows you to pivot your shoulders some, and get the 6 view if you really stretch. Of course in a super decathalon it doesn't allow a good 6 view, but in a fighter it would. Again, probably not in the F-4, but this theory about tightening shoulder belts until you can't move your shoulders is not always the case. Some pilots do regularly tighten the shoulder belts extremely tightly, and some don't. I think the 6 view would be acquirable in a P-51 with the shoulder belts slightly loose, but it would be difficult. Maybe they could limit the G's at which the 6 view is acquirable with.
CJ
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Not one post in here denies that the pilot had to turn to look over his shoulder... not just peer thru back of skull while placing face against against windshield +)
ahh well was a good discussion nonetheless +)
SKurj
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I'll bite.
Not one post in here denies that the computer view can never match either the field of vision or the detail of that vision of a real pilot, much less having to remember button combinations to simply move his eyeballs +)
Ahh well, was a good discussion nonetheless +)
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fatty,
id just be happy if the crew at htc went back and gave some of the older planes (n1k,spitfire, me109, bubble top p47s) accurate head movement restrictions like hey did in the newer planes (p-51b is a good example of how i think it should be done)
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P51B birdcage is way too restrictive. The metal formers take up too much of the view to ever simulate real view. The same for the Zeke. Absolutely atrocious. Lets bring the malcom hood to the 51B!
Mav
PS lets lose SNAFU! <GDR> ;)
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why not add rear view mirrors? it may not be realistic to look straight back but unless u have a vf helmet or a few extra buttons for custom views its a good option, only being able to look back at a certain angle and the using pgup and pgdn and the left and right up and down keys would be good, but then u have the problem of having a button to look back to the right and look back to the left
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"why not add rear view mirrors?"
I asked that question a year ago. I referenced AW having that for many years. HTC answered (paraphrasing) that AH uses a completely different generation and level of graphics technology that the end result of adding mirrors would be a phenominal and unpleasant frame hit. AW evidently uses a 3d overlay on the original 2d graphics. AH has no 2D layer.
-- Westy
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Westy? AW has rear view mirrors? You sure HT knew you were referring to just a reversed 6 view image?
SKurj