Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: HighGTrn on December 08, 2008, 04:20:14 PM
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I usually fly a 38 J but I'm taking off this month from my beloved Lightning. I chose the Pony for my R&R because I was tired of beating someone on a merge, gain advantage and then having to try and catch them when they run. I've had moderate success in the week I've been flying the Pony and really enjoy it. The most fun I have with it is trying to copy OleDemon and go for low alt dogfights.
I'm actually really surprised at what you can do with the pony if you add a little SA, rudder, flaps, WEP and some vertical maneuvering.
One thing that I found really frustrates me is going up against a Tiffie and its sister the Tempy when they have some extra E. I do everything I think you are supposed to do and the results are mixed.
Example:
Tiffie and me at same alt but he's got more E cause he is going faster than I. In this situation, I've had more success. Here, I try and lure him into an angles fight where I can deploy my flaps and get him slowed down so that I can kill him. It usually takes 2 or three merges and some vertical moves on my part but eventually, I can get advantage.
Tiffie is above me and our E states are not equal. This is where I have trouble. On his initial pass, I usually do a break turn with some nose down attitude to force an overshoot. Most Tiffies will then climb while I try and maneuver as gracefully as possible to preserve what E I have. I can't climb with him and pursue cause of all the E I've lost in the break turn and all the E he has preserved in his climb. This continues until the inevitable happens and I catch one of those hispanos.
Would appreciate any advice you can give me on the second part.
Thanks,
S1n1ster
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From a aircraft perspective, the D pony holds a healthy advantage over the Tiffie at and around the 8K mark. The D pony holds the speed, and the climb advantage. Against the Tempest at the same alt, its all but the same, but with a very slight advantage to the tempest. Their biggest asset is undoubtedly the hispano cannons.
In terms of turn performance there's not much between all three, but, personally I would prefer to knife fight in the P51.
As to answering your question. Its not so much a 'what can a pony do', its what can YOU do. The method of defeating the boom and zoomer is the same regardless of what you fly. Wear em down while doing JUST enough to avoid getting shot, but also at the same time setting yourself up to capitalise on the inevitable overshoots. The trick is to try make em think you are burning more E than them and to give the illusion they can bounce with impunity, then we the E stakes get closer you're in the perfect surprise opportunity to follow em up or get a shot off as they overshoot.
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If I remember it right, the pony has *very* high speed flaps.
Best way I've found to beat 'em is to wait for them to commit to the dive, dive yourself to high spee, then begin an oblique turn, watch him try to make it, and at the last second, pop the flaps to *really* haul it into a barrel roll.
Clean it up, go nose low, get some speed back- he'll try it again, and you'll do the same thing again. Eventually he'll tire of it or do something stupid.
If you get him to commit to a max G turn, you have him dead to rights.
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Tiffie is above me and our E states are not equal. This is where I have trouble. On his initial pass, I usually do a break turn with some nose down attitude to force an overshoot. Most Tiffies will then climb while I try and maneuver as gracefully as possible to preserve what E I have. I can't climb with him and pursue cause of all the E I've lost in the break turn and all the E he has preserved in his climb. This continues until the inevitable happens and I catch one of those hispanos.
Therein lies your answer....don't break turn. If the E difference is reasonably close fake a break turn after you pass him during the merge. Release and continue on heading directly away from him. The Typhoon will reverse and usually go nose low into a tail chase. Depending on the dynamics he will end up 1.5 to 3.0k behind you in a high six position. You made him burn his E while saving perhaps even gaining some yourself. (The goal is to never be directly underneath of an enemy up high.) The tail chase does two things very well in the Typhoon/Tempest vs P-51 match up. It gets the pair into reasonably level flight and losing energy by bleeding off excess speed. By excess I mean speed not normally attained in level flight. The P-51 is very slick and will lose E slower than almost any plane in the game in high speed flight. When your showing 1.0k start a slow descending turn left or right. As he get closer vary your descent so that he cant guess were you will be very well. Notice I said down, not up, in this situation up is death against most people. Watch his flight path for clues on were to be or where not to be. If he breaks off immediatly release, extend out and by all means stay out from beneath him! If he wont commit do this a few times and youll be co E with a desperate foe. Make sure your speed difference is enough to keep him from dumping speed and staying with you. If he does turn with you dont start dropping flaps rightaway. Stay in his foward up view urging him to pull, a little more, a little more. (Think Topgun with Vipers buddy going "Come on Mav...stay with me" As soon as you think he his fully commited start getting the flaps out and pulling around. I fly the P-51 with alot of success in the DA against all types of planes. If you can do it well it will allow you to escape alot of situations like this. Stop by sometime and I will show you! Remember tho....only try as much as you need to. Until your ready to pounce just focus on bleeding his E and staying out of his guns....position can wait.
<S> Steel
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If I remember it right, the pony has *very* high speed flaps.
Best way I've found to beat 'em is to wait for them to commit to the dive, dive yourself to high spee, then begin an oblique turn, watch him try to make it, and at the last second, pop the flaps to *really* haul it into a barrel roll.
Clean it up, go nose low, get some speed back- he'll try it again, and you'll do the same thing again. Eventually he'll tire of it or do something stupid.
If you get him to commit to a max G turn, you have him dead to rights.
I got two 110s by outdiving them in my pony this weekend. They started out with about 4-5k alt on me, Iwas at about 8-10k. I floated under them waiting for one to do a hard dive on me, which I then dove away, trying to drag them down and keep me alive with a huge E disadvantage. The 110s must of not been doing throtle control, I simply dove my pony to over 450 mph and then did a gentle climb back up. I rinsed and repeated for his other buddy. The 110s augered, one after the other, probably from locking up by going too fast in a vertical dive. I was thinking my dive-aways would just keep me alive, drag my enemys to a lower altitude if they were hungry for my pony, but not to defeat the enemy twice in a row.
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The most fun I have with it is trying to copy OleDemon and go for low alt dogfights.
low alt.. lol he must have been vulching.
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low alt.. lol he must have been vulching.
Whenever he flies that thing he is always under dar in a dogfight doing his thing. He flies that plane like a madman and sometimes lands :)
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I'd say keep your speed and use the vertical - thats what gives me trouble with ponies which climb (and zoom?) better than the typhie. If a pony starts to use flaps and turn I'm feeling pretty good about it because although the pony is almost as fast under 8k and alot faster over, the typh will out accelerate it level, in a dive or even a very gentle climb. just bear in mind that tho you probably dont see it very often a typh can turn inside quite a few of the planset...
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Thanks for all the tips! The thing about the tiffie and the temps that scare me the most are those hispanos. When I get shot down by them, its usually via a snap shot vs. them saddling up on me.
S1n1ster
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Personally, I would hate to fight a pony against a Temp, probably worse case senario for you in the pony. The Tiff is going to beat you in any type of vertical, I know for a fact that it has a significant advantage to its right side, an I know can out turn a pony in a 1v1 situation. Best thing for you to do is to try and beat him to make him pick, you can best fight with the disadvantage because you have much more time to react to what he was doing. Also, with good evasive manuvers, you can get a lot more shots on him, than he can on you.
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I chose the Pony for my R&R because I was tired of beating someone on a merge, gain advantage and then having to try and catch them when they run.
That's exactly why I started flying the Pony. It's a good bird :)
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Whenever he flies that thing he is always under dar in a dogfight doing his thing. He flies that plane like a madman and sometimes lands :)
lol
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Tiffies roll like beached whales - make good use of that and NEVER allow the tiffie to match his roll angle to yours. As he is closing on you, bank sharply and don't start to turn yet. The tiffie will roll in preparation for your turn, to be ready for the deflection shot. He HAS to do it early or he will not be quick enough to pull the shot. When he matches your bank - change it! Either bank to the other side or try to lure him to roll more than 90 degrees into a partially inverted attitude. I like to switch from side to side by rolling through the inverted position. It usually confuses your chaser as he might think you will go into a split-S. If he matches it - continue.
This makes it hard for him to prepare the deflection shot and he will be late on the break turn. If you lure him to go inverted just before gun range, roll and pull straight up to suck him into vertical scissors - be ready to roll 180 and go straight down again if he bites. Fast rolling planes (190s, f4u, P38L at high speed) should be able to make the tiffie lag by 120-180 degrees in the roll, which means that when you break you disappear under his belly. No way he will make that shot and set you up nicely to reverse after him.
A few more notes:
- Many tiffie drivers will use rudder to flip their plane over. They will be able to match one or two quick rolls but it sucks their energy like mad.
- Some will not bother to turn at all and just try to stomp the rudder for a single quick shot. Therefore, if you roll 90 and the tiffie is not following, pull just a little to make you flight paths diverging. It may even allow you to roll back after him and get a shot in as he blows by.
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The P-51 has a speed advantage over the Typhoon at all altitudes. At 13000 feet the advantage is almost 30 mph. The climb rate is fairly even throughout. The P-51 IMO outclasses the Typhoon in every way except firepower.
The Tempest is a different matter. under 7k and above 13K the Tempest will keep up with you out climb you and out accelerate you. Between 7K and 12K the Tempests performance falls off dramatically. This should be you sweet spot when fighting one.
Also Neither airplane dives well at least not in terms of the 51. Around 440 or so the airplane wants to pull up and elevator authority drops off.
The best way to defeat one If you cant get in you alt range is to dive away and use your superior top speed to equalize E states. I would not advise trying to suck either airplane on and trying to force an overshoot or scissors. Both can slow down very fast and with the heavy guns can kill you easily with one snap shot. As far as roll rate goes both planes hate to roll left when under 200mph. Above 200mph the roll rate is mediocre at best. So if you have no choice but to reel them in close a left hand rolling scissor will get them in trouble. An easy way to suck him into it is to chop power and break low right and hope he tries to slow down and turn with you. When he overshoots you roll back left and over the top of him. If he tries to turn back into you will have have the option then to roll with him.
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According to DokGonzo's fighter comparison, the Typhoon is somewhat faster 6K and below, and has better acceleration. (The P-51 takes 10 seconds longer to go from 300 to 350 than the Typh does at low alt.) The Typh also has a better turning circle, particularly with full flaps.
Otherwise, :aok
The P-51 has a speed advantage over the Typhoon at all altitudes. At 13000 feet the advantage is almost 30 mph. The climb rate is fairly even throughout. The P-51 IMO outclasses the Typhoon in every way except firepower.
The Tempest is a different matter. under 7k and above 13K the Tempest will keep up with you out climb you and out accelerate you. Between 7K and 12K the Tempests performance falls off dramatically. This should be you sweet spot when fighting one.
Also Neither airplane dives well at least not in terms of the 51. Around 440 or so the airplane wants to pull up and elevator authority drops off.
The best way to defeat one If you cant get in you alt range is to dive away and use your superior top speed to equalize E states. I would not advise trying to suck either airplane on and trying to force an overshoot or scissors. Both can slow down very fast and with the heavy guns can kill you easily with one snap shot. As far as roll rate goes both planes hate to roll left when under 200mph. Above 200mph the roll rate is mediocre at best. So if you have no choice but to reel them in close a left hand rolling scissor will get them in trouble. An easy way to suck him into it is to chop power and break low right and hope he tries to slow down and turn with you. When he overshoots you roll back left and over the top of him. If he tries to turn back into you will have have the option then to roll with him.
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Tippys and Tempests are pretty easy to beat with a pony, but you have to be smart about it and bait them. Always keep the pony fast, 1st and foremost so you have the E to climb. Try to come in above him and tease the tippy to come up after you. Tippys are not good up high and thats where you want to fight these guys.
They can be spanked down low but it's alot more of a battle because he's faster, can turn better, and you're out gunned. One mistake with a Tippy in a knife fight and you'll be in the tower.
Once you got your speed and alt up make several passes at him from 9 to 3 oclock and slowly climb. He'll have to turn 90 degrees to get on your six and climb up with you. Don't let your speed get below 300 IAS at this point. Allow him to keep his speed up so he feels comfortable following you up. Remember, the higher he goes the easier it'll be for you. If he starts to roll over and stall, hit a notch of flaps and Split S and take your shot. But stay fast incase you miss, and climb back up. Do not get into a looping fight with the tippy. You're just setting yourself up to die by HO.
Always try to keep the tippys in a slow left hand climb. He'll be working against his torque and playing into yours.Fly a tippy or tempest for awhile to see how it handles. What it likes and what it doesn't. Then use those things against him.
I'm not very good at explaining this stuff but hope you kind of got a general idea. It's basically BnZ and rope them for the most part. Every situation is different and there's no set rules for this stuff. But I can say that when I get killed be a tippy or tempest, it's usually something stupid I did rather then something smart the other guy did. :salute