Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: ca15 on December 13, 2008, 01:11:17 AM
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I need help with cannon and gun convergence . I have to be at d200 to get decent hits on target at d400 cant get a hit at all. But can get decent hits on target in the la5 at d400 quite easily. Could some one give some ideas to help me improve my hit rate in the spit thaks :salute
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The La5's guns are nose mounted making convergence less of an issue.
Convergence in wing mounted guns really depends on where/when you fire on a target. In a a/c with faster closure or an a/c with taters, I'll set it at 225. For convergence with 50 cals in the wings, I set it about 375. Wing gun convergence is entirely personal preference imho.
Most of the time, I'm in a P38 which has nose mounted guns as well.
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The mounting of the guns makes the difference. The La's cannons are nose mounted, making onvergence settings less of an issue than with the Spit's wing mounted ones.
When shooting at a target 400 yards away, the nose mounted weapons will be tighter grouped:
(http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/1229/convno6.jpg)
I would suggest putting convergence back to a more reasonable longer range (like D300-D400 for example) - or wait until your target is close enough.
Oops, Delirium beat me... but I have a picture! (well, kinda) :D
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Oops, Delirium beat me... but I have a picture! (well, kinda) :D
I'll see your picture and raise you a picture of Silat with his love after a nightly romp.
(http://filmfanatic.org/reviews/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/WilderSheep.JPG)
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You win... I bow to you, oh deranged one! :lol
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Which one is Silat?
mulli
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set the 20mm and .50cal to the same convergence, and that should be where you take most of your shots. I'd start with 300yd and bring it in when you find you're taking shots closer.
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Since the OP says he can't hit much past d200, I think he should set his convergence in tight, like <250.
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Since the OP says he can't hit much past d200, I think he should set his convergence in tight, like <250.
No, he said he just can't hit at D400 in a Spitfire, while in a LA he can. And the reason for it is his convergence being set too short for D400 shots.
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And the reason for it is his convergence being set too short for D400 shots.
Where did we learn that? The OP never said where he sets his convergence in the Spit16.
Just because your convergence is set too short doesn't mean you can't hit from that distance, rather your hits won't be effective. When I fly the P-47 I regularly get hits at 600 yards and further out, even though my convergence is set to 400. I have it at 400 yards because that's where I tend to kill the most, but it doesn't prevent me from shooting further out.
Bullet dispersion and imperfect aim is more than enough to make up for convergence being shorter than the target's range.
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The mounting of the guns makes the difference. The La's cannons are nose mounted, making onvergence settings less of an issue than with the Spit's wing mounted ones.
When shooting at a target 400 yards away, the nose mounted weapons will be tighter grouped:
(http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/1229/convno6.jpg)
I would suggest putting convergence back to a more reasonable longer range (like D300-D400 for example) - or wait until your target is close enough.
Oops, Delirium beat me... but I have a picture! (well, kinda) :D
that's a classic piece of art :salute :rofl That is cool Lusche :aok
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Wing mounted guns set at d200 shooting at d200.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n277/1bronk1/ahss51.jpg)
Wing mounted guns set at d200 shooting at d400
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n277/1bronk1/ahss52.jpg)
When firing at targets not at convergence, fire slightly off center to score more hits.
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I think when it says your 400 out it's actually somewhere between 500 and 301 and when it first says your at 200 out from target it's actually 300
I take a lot of shots when it says 400 but not normally in any of the spits that carry 303's. I like to get a little closer and as soon as it says 200 I start firing. I'll try to keep my target in the 200 range using throttle management.
The 16 guns are a little different. Having the 50's maks it possible to take longer more heavy hitting shots. The 50's are on the inside and shoot long and straight so I set them out to 325-375 giving me a good convergence pattern at 450 and below. The cannon being farther out on the wing but not so far that i need to set them out longer I put at 275-300.
I've tried both set ups and like 350 for the 50's and 300 for cannon best. (not shown in pictures) Both cannon and 50's cross at about 250 and again at 325 spreading out across the targets wings from there. The 50's I can still use effectively at 450-500 forcing them to turn.
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/ahss65.jpg)
Hard hitting Spit 8 and 9's
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/ahss136.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/ahss137.jpg)
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Wing mounted guns set at d200 shooting at d200.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n277/1bronk1/ahss51.jpg)
Wing mounted guns set at d200 shooting at d400
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n277/1bronk1/ahss52.jpg)
When firing at targets not at convergence, fire slightly off center to score more hits.
SIZE OF YOUR PLANE IN THE TARGET...NOT RELATED TO SPIT CONVERGENCE. think I was testing 51's
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/Converge-1.jpg)
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I'll see your picture and raise you a picture of Silat with his love after a nightly romp.
(http://filmfanatic.org/reviews/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/WilderSheep.JPG)
I dont smoke ...........:)
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SIZE OF YOUR PLANE IN THE TARGET...NOT RELATED TO SPIT CONVERGENCE. think I was testing 51's
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/Converge-1.jpg)
are you using the F3 view to show size of plane in target? if so then this is distorted information.... unless you show your icon counter being at the convergence distance........if you can understand what I am trying to explain here.....
( target = .target (xxx) where xxx equals the distance in numbers on how far out you want your target to appear. when using this target dot command your target will always be on a NORTH heading and will stay at what ever alt you are currently at when you enter the DOT command....... to turn off the dot command type .target xxx ( or .target x ) IIRC
another tip, ( Think Ren brought this to my attention way back ), is better to use the SHIFT X command instead of using the regular X Auto Pilot command when testing convergence and testing droppage effect of machine gun rounds vs cannon rounds
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Yes, I was using F3 to take the picture. I thought the bullets will hit the paper at any range and the closer you get to them would represent where they hit no matter what. The plane was pictured within 1 yard of the target trying to give you an approximate view of what size it was compared to the inner circle. The bullet patterns near it I figured would remain the same no matter how far or close the picture was taken..
Directly above and below the unidentified plane are bullet hits at point blank range. For the life of me i can not remember what plane I put in the picture but pretty sure now that i used a pony to make the holes for testing and that could be a pony pictured.
Here are two more i took just today to see what it would look like. The bullets on top are fired from a spit at 200 randomly but below are from 500 out aiming dead center target from the top guns of the B-24. They fell a ways but stayed grouped.
Thats how big the planes are in the target at 1 yard I guess. I don't know how big they would be if I was out 200-500
Thinking about what you've said...now I'm confused. Maybe my info is wrong.
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/ahss138.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/ahss140.jpg)
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When it comes to the size of a plane in the target-
The target measures 100ft x 100ft. Each ring is 10ft from the others, the center ring being 20ft across. The F4U has a 41ft wingspan- compare this to the targets rings in this screenshot-
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/Mtnman_03/ahss7.jpg)
The way I like to test convergences is like this-
Set convergence to what you want (300 yds, say) and then put the target that far out and fire. Then take a screen shot of it, and reset the target to get the holes out. Then set it at a different range to see the effect of firing at non-convergence ranges. Take more screen shots, etc. I trim my plane while on auto-pilot (level) to maintain a center hold on the target, and allow my plane to reach full speed before testing. Not doing that will show useful information, but isn't a reliable test for convergence. It can show the effect higher AoA has due to lower speed, effect of firing while tilted, inverted, or under G-load, etc... It can show how important it is to set up a shot so that you're level, and at 1G, and show you how to compensate for when you're not :D
One obvious thing I noticed was 300yds seems to be as "optimum" as I can get with the F4U (or any wing-mounted 50s). Setting my convergence to 300, and firing while at 300 will yield more hits then setting it at 600, and firing at 600, even if my aim is perfect in both instances. Effectively, I've found that setting it further than 300 hurts the effectiveness of the wing-mounted 50s more the further out I set it. I've found that same thing to be true with any of the wing-mounted planes that I've looked at. My general rule is to set my guns at the same range any time I'm in a plane with wing-mounted guns. My main concern isn't hitting my opponent- my concern is hitting him effectively and reliably/repeatably/predictably. I want to hurt him bad, and hurt him quick. It helps me live longer :aok
A side benefit to 300 is that it's one of only a select few distances I can fire at, and know what my actual distance to the target is. So I know I'm firing at convergence. The only other times I can do that is at 100, 500, 700 and 900yds. I consider 500 and 700 too far for serious attempts (but I'll still fire to "steer" my target. How do I know my yardage? Watch the distance counter. D400 means the target is somewhere between 300 and 500yds. That's a pretty big range, and setting convergence at 400 will only allow me optimum hitting power in the middle of that- how do I know he's in the right spot?? I don't. I'm stuck with a guess.
The trick that works for me is to set convergence at a point where the D-counter changes. My target is in front of me, and I'm closing on him, preparing to shoot. The counter says D600, then D400. I wait. The counter switches to D200- now, at that moment, how far away is he??? He's 300yds out! How far is my convergence set? When is the best time to shoot?
In reality, I set my wing-mounted guns to 275, and try to do most of my shooting at that range. I set it there because of my reaction time between seeing the counter switch to D200 and actually firing (remember, I'm assuming I'm catching him). The 50's are like chainsaws at that range, with that convergence. And, through my testing, I've also found that setting it at 275 leaves me basically as effective at 600 yards as I would be at 600yds with a 600yd convergence. The difference is that at that range I have two groups spaced about 15ft apart, and a little low.
Anyhow, that's how I do it... YMMV.
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Another test I find useful is to fire at a target (various ranges and convergences). Then take that same target and move it to "1" (.target 1). Then back off from it (F3?) and use the zoom keys to slide to a point where you can see how many of those shots were effective.
Like this (this one shows what hits are going to be like at convergence 275, using the yardage estimation method mentioned)(These aren't set to "1", but probably more like "10". Compare where my wingtips are, remembering I have a 41ft span- close enough to illustrate the point, though)
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/Mtnman_03/ahss11.jpg)
And this (this one shows me where to aim with convergence set at 275, for a 600yd shot)(if I aim at his cockpit, he's going to lose his wings, well, probably one anyway, hehe!!)
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/Mtnman_03/ahss9.jpg)
Remember, I'm showing an F4U here, but these methods/tests will help in spits, or any other fighter. I'm showing these mainly as a "how to figure out what works best for you". Convergence is important, but isn't a "cure-all". You can have your convergence set perfectly, and have horrible results. Or, have it set horribly and still enjoy some success. Convergence is really only one piece of the bigger puzzle. But!- paying attention to it/testing it can lead to discovering other aspects that can help immensely. Try to figure out why things work for you, and test things for yourself. You'll learn more than if you just take someones word for it.
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Thanks Mountain man, all very good advise as always :aok
I know you like yours all set at 300...or 275 as stated but in my stubborn mind i still think a 25 yard inward stagger for the farthest outside guns does have an advantage in the way of crisscrossing at different yardages. My outer 50's in the F4U's and F6's crisscross 4 Times and i can see a difference on the target grouping opposed to setting all at the same convergence. It's minor i suppose but seems to wk for me. The FM2 and Pony B are set perfectly IMO, I don't have a problem killing anything with them quickly..bombers included.
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/ahss141.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/ahss143.jpg)
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I agree that the stagger option works well too, I just don't do it.