Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: seano on December 13, 2008, 03:01:18 AM
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seen it on the military channel. where's ours?
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seen it on the military channel. where's ours?
In that box with all the other planes that didn't see any combat in WWII.
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In that box with all the other planes that didn't see any combat in WWII.
Gloster Meteor?
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In that box with all the other planes that didn't see any combat in WWII.
:lol I'd really like to take a peek inside that box.
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The Meteor did see action.
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The Meteor did see action.
Not against anything that could both fly and shoot back.
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That's not the only criteria. V rockets were combat elements. Their pilots were scientists pushing red buttons on the ground. Can you make a case that Meteors wouldnt have fought enemy planes, had they encountered any?
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Not against anything that could both fly and shoot back.
As you know their mission was to destroy incoming V1 Rockets. They fulfilled their mission objectives in active operational service. They fired their weapons and destroyed enemy targets. Sounds like combat to me...
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The Meteor did see action.
It was also deployed in the Holland/Belgium area in '45.
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Not against anything that could both fly and shoot back.
That is not a criteria of "combat".
And it did have at least one dogfight with something that could both fly and shoot back, Fw190s. There were no losses on either side before a Spitfire squadron bounced them and went after the Meteors thinking they were German.
As to actually being shot at, they were used in ground attack. Probably the most dangerous mission for Allied airmen at that stage of the war.
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I read the Meteors were setting up a bounce on the 190s when they were bounced by Spitfires.
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They were in active service over enemy territory and fired their guns in anger, destroying both airborne and ground targets. Meteor doesn't belong to the box.
(It's the LW's fault, they weren't there!)
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(It's the LW's fault, they weren't there!)
You're full of it.
616 Sq. Meteors were operational in July 1944. In January 1945 the Luftwaffe sortied 1,035 aircraft in attacks against 17 allied airfields. The Luftwaffe was most certainly "there", but most of the time the Meteors were not allowed to engage German aircraft over German held territory.
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Am I full of what?
You are telling me no news. Operation Bodenplatte, launched on new-years morning 1945 was basically LW's last spasm. They saved up and threw out just about everything they had.
Fuel shortage had a lot to do with it. Did you know that Oxen were applied to tow aircraft about the ramps, and fuel saving was applied by cutting engines and gliding in for landings?
The Meteors were on the mainland when...in January 1945. 616? Colerne-Melsbroek (where sweeps were cunducted looking for enemy jets). Then 616 moved to join a bigger party (Meteor III by then) at Gilze-Rijen in MARCH, encountering no enemies in the air. The squadron was in Germany before the war was over.
They did kill a Storch....on the ground though...
In short, - late late 1944 the LW was mostly down, and after Bodenplatte even worse.
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The Meteors were operational in July 1944, but were held back for secrecy reasons. Are you trying to say that the Luftwaffe "weren't there" in July 1944? And yes, the 616 sq. did transfer to Melsbrook in Belgium in January of 1945. The Meteors didn't see much combat with the Luftwaffe because they weren't allowed to, not because the Luftwaffe wasn't there.
A Storch? ... By war's end the few Meteors in service had destroyed 46 German aircraft on the ground.
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He is obviously referring to the period when Meteor Mk IIIs were assigned to the continent, not when Mk Is were being held back for defense against V1s.
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He is obviously referring to the period when Meteor Mk IIIs were assigned to the continent, not when Mk Is were being held back for defense against V1s.
After the V1 threat to Britain was over the Meteor was still not deployed in combat against the Luftwaffe. They were forbidden to fly over enemy territory for intelligence security reasons. Instead they became a training tool for American bomber crews to train on fending off jet fighters. Only several months later in January 1945 were they transferred to the continent, and even then their missions were heavily restricted to avoid one falling into enemy hands. Not until the very last months were the Meteors released for unrestricted combat.
The Luftwaffe lost thousands of aircraft in air combat in the west in 1945. Even as late as March the USAAF bombers reported daily multiple attacks of 100+ formations of German fighters.
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I referred to 616. The Storch.
BTW, the transfer to Meteor III should not be unobserved, since the performance was significally better.
The meteors were operational in July, and had their debut at shooting down the waves of incoming V-1's. Those numbered thousands, and IMHO it was a very wise choice to apply the new squadrons exactly this way.
Of course the LW was there in July 1944, blood nosed but still angry, but only a shadow of the former LW was there once the Meteors went hunting in 1945.
By chance the Meteors could have mixed it with LW fighters, props or jets, - but that didn't happen.
Why? Well, the odds of meeting LW fighters were not so good. The skies were full of allied fighters, LW sorties were few, their targets were bombers primarilly, and the Meteors were not so many.
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In that box with all the other planes that didn't see any combat in WWII.
moin
mmh i think only the 4 engine ar234 saw combat and the 2 engine ar234 was the first produktion los with the 262 engines jumo 004. but the jumos were needed for the 262 so thay switched the ar234 to the bmw engines with less power.
cu chris3
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"The Luftwaffe lost thousands of aircraft in air combat in the west in 1945. Even as late as March the USAAF bombers reported daily multiple attacks of 100+ formations of German fighters."
Quotes please?
I'll have my words on this though. As a flipside to this I have been in a debate where the issue was that the LW was dead in 1944, where I did not agree.
In 1944, which may have been the bloodiest year of the LW, they lost some 10.000 aircraft, if memory serves some 3-4 on the western front for each one the eastern front.
I would be very happy to add to my archive from LW losses BTW. 1942-1943 would be particularly interesting.
Anyway, I seriously doubt your "thousands" numbers in air combat. Thousands as a total, yes, but many scrapped and many shot up on the ground.
As for the reports of the bombers, well, they were not always that reliable. If you look at their claims for instance, they are insanely off.
In 1945, the common sight in the skies over Germany were allied fighters. And there you had pilots who flew complete tours without engaging the enemy. You had missions, - even bomber + escorts, where the mission was completed without sighting an enemy aircraft, as well as there were many missions where enemies were sighted, but turned away because of escorts.
In short, in 1945 it was by no means any surprize that a handful of Meteors didn't make it into a mix. Could have happened, but didn't.
BTW, the Meteor I didn't have such a phenomenal performance above the best prop fighters. It was well suited for chasing up the doodlebugs though.
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If you head over to Kacha's site he has made available pdf's of the Luftwaffe victory claims for each month in 1945. They're quite detailed.
And from Alfred Price's Luftwaffe Data Book:
Serviceable Aircraft Strength 10 January 1945
Single-engined fighters 1462
Night fighters 808
Ground-attack aircraft 613
Night harassment aircraft 302
Multi-engined bombers 294
Anti-shipping aircraft 83
Long-range reconnaissance aircraft 176
Short-range and army cooperation aircraft 293
Coastal aircraft 60
Transport aircraft 269
Misc. aircraft (KG 200) 206
Total 4566
Serviceable Aircraft Strength on 9 April 1945:
Single-engined fighters 1305
Night fighters 485
Ground-attack aircraft 712
Night harassment aircraft 215
Multi-engined bombers 37
Long-range reconnaissance aircraft 143
Short-range and army cooperation aircraft 309
Coastal aircraft 45
Transport aircraft 10
Misc. aircraft (KG 200) 70
Total 3331
The book has detailed data on almost every unit at the time, but for obvious reasons I can't be bothered to type everything here.
This USAAF site has the USAAF losses detailed: http://www.usaaf.net/digest/t100.htm
Total USAAF losses in Europe January - August 1945: 4,851 aircraft. About half of what they lost in all of 1944. And that number does not include their losses in the Med.
"In the ETO (non Mediterranean MTO) during 1944, USAAF lost 1,293 fighter aircraft to enemy fighters, while losing 1,611 due to German Flak. In 1945 the ratio of fighters lost to Flak vs Luftwaffe fighters was almost 4:1."
If we extrapolate that ratio to include all aircraft that's more than a thousand American aircraft shot down by the Luftwaffe in 1945.
If you don't want to believe it, don't believe it.
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More than a thousand american aircraft were killed, yes, and a good proportion of that destroyed in one day?
And 4 to one fell for flak vs a different balance in 1944. 1944 was the year when the flak passed the LW.
Not sure of the Allied sorties, but tend to think that 1945 would have been the most intensive one on daily basis. But that's the U.S. losses here...
And the LW's losses? Don't see them on Kacha's page? (lots of good links though)
Oh, Price's book looks promising. Is it a must-have? I have been spending some time on LW losses (Including sweating over their loss archives in the IWM), and the reports seem a bit flaky.Well it was war, and this is the data from the side that was overrun, so I guess that's what one would expect.
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Total USAAF losses in Europe January - August 1945: 4,851 aircraft
TOTAL ;)
Combat and accident losses were 4088. What is not given is a breakdown of the combat and the accident losses for '44 and '45.
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Perhaps these links help:
http://www.usaaf.net/digest/t159.htm
http://www.usaaf.net/digest/t160.htm
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Telling isn't it gripen, the losses due to enemy a/c and losses due to flak in 1945. ;)
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moin
mmh i think only the 4 engine ar234 saw combat and the 2 engine ar234 was the first produktion los with the 262 engines jumo 004. but the jumos were needed for the 262 so thay switched the ar234 to the bmw engines with less power.
cu chris3
The BMW engines were available only very late in the war.
The only 4 engined BMW 003 version of the Ar 234 that got into series production was the Arado 234C-3. Assembly of that plane started in February '45. 19 were built total, but only 3 of them were delivered to IV./KG 76 for testing and training purposes.
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Is there any data on the performance of that one?
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(http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4985/clipboard01cn5.jpg)
weight, empty: 6500kg
weight, takeoff: 11000kg
max speed: 852km/h (532mph)
cruise speed: 800km/h (500mph)
ceiling: 11000m
range: 1215km
bombload: 500-1500kg
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whooofff! now that is something.
Rather afraid that it's going to be out of AH though.
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lets bust that darned box wide open and take a rell nice look
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In a big box, there are still common aircraft that could survive in the MA........
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see
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moin
@ lusche thx for the report and the technical data conclusion. answers me some questions i have asked me my for a wile
cu chris3
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4 engined 234 wouldn't be faster. The reason there are 4 is they were having production problems with the bigger ones, so they added 2x as many weaker engines. End result is probably more drag, more malfunction problems, and NOT the 2x speed you're probably thinking you would get.
End result: Just pretend you have 4 if you like, it's flying about the same anyways.
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4 engined 234 wouldn't be faster. The reason there are 4 is they were having production problems with the bigger ones, so they added 2x as many weaker engines. End result is probably more drag, more malfunction problems, and NOT the 2x speed you're probably thinking you would get.
End result: Just pretend you have 4 if you like, it's flying about the same anyways.
Um. Of course you could read the technical specs ight in the *previous page* instead just making random guesses.
Ar 234C with 4 engines was much faster than 234B. 20% higher cruising and top speeds, longer range.
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4 engined 234 wouldn't be faster. The reason there are 4 is they were having production problems with the bigger ones, so they added 2x as many weaker engines. End result is probably more drag, more malfunction problems, and NOT the 2x speed you're probably thinking you would get.
End result: Just pretend you have 4 if you like, it's flying about the same anyways.
2 x Jumo 004 > 1800lb thrust
4 x BMW 003 > 3200lb thrust
What ever you say Krusty. :rolleyes:
Read 'Arado Ar234 Blitz' by Smith/Creek, ISBN0-914144-52-0
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I'm saying the end result is the same.
In-game, it's already uncatchable. Giving it 20% extra isn't going to change that.
It's very easy to just pretend. You've still got a bomber that's uninterceptable 99.999999% of the time in AH2.
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they are interceptible especialy if they come in at 6-7 k if there are already bombers around you are up there normaly and that how i intercept min i wait untill they are done bombing and then cut the corner on there turn and shoot them down
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A laden Ar234 doesn't even break 400mph last time I tested it.
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I recall being caught by a La-7 on a long leg. I was still faster (the La had alt) and managed to slowly extend. But that was SLOWLY.
An Arado with 4 engines whose performance is showed above in this thread would definately be a naughty thing in AHII.
However, there are many other possibilities in the waiting line in the same category. Should one dare utter a name?
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A laden Ar234 doesn't even break 400mph last time I tested it.
thats one reason i sometimes take 3 buffs but only 1 bomb so i have less drag and can fly faster.... still can take out a VH like that.
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Wasnt the 4 BMW engine set up being considered as an alternative for the 234 because what available Jumo engines they had were going to the 262?I was led to believe it was a production/availability issue not a performance issue.
Pipz
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There was something like 8000 Jumo 004s produced. There was around 1400 Me252s produced.
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also the bmw engine was easyer to produce than the junkers
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There was something like 8000 Jumo 004s produced. There was around 1400 Me252s produced.
Just to continue the conversation a bit.Those 1400 262's would have needed 2800 engines.From what I recall those engines wore out fast.If this is all true is it possable that they were going through theyre stock of engines?I cant recall where I heard or read about the BMW being a replacement because of Jumo engines going to the 262.I also heard or read somewhere that they had plenty of 262 air frames but there was a lack of engines for them.I may have heard some of this over the years on the history channel.We know that can be questionable.I have never read much about the jets so this stuff is a bit interesting to me.
P.S. I see one book recomended up there on the 234.Are there any others that come recomended?
Thanks
Pipz
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moin
belive me thay need all 8000 jumo engines for the 262. the live spann of this engines wasn t realy high, less than 25 houers.
and wrong handling causes damages easy too.
so every built 262 used minimum 4 jumos in here live. thats over 5600 jumos!!!!!
and i have read somewehere that only 5000 jumos 004 were built, thats maybe wrong but it becomes clear that the RLM dont have much 004 for the AR234.
cu chris3
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i thought originally they wanted to use the BMW engine in the 262 but production issues early in the stages meant they chased up the Jumo units?
the BMW was a far better unit but also harder to make, ie Jumo turbine blades were hollow to allow them to be air-cooled, and therefor a softer/cheaper metal could be used?
BMW used solid blades of exotic metals so could have a higher RPM and EGT = more power...? in theory of coarse... never really worked out that well.
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i thought originally they wanted to use the BMW engine in the 262 but production issues early in the stages meant they chased up the Jumo units?
the BMW was a far better unit but also harder to make, ie Jumo turbine blades were hollow to allow them to be air-cooled, and therefor a softer/cheaper metal could be used?
BMW used solid blades of exotic metals so could have a higher RPM and EGT = more power...? in theory of coarse... never really worked out that well.
moin
thats partly coreckt but not with the bmw engine. first there was the jumo 004a with better material(exotic metals) a livespan over 100houers nearly 100kp more trust and 100kg more weight but because of the leak of material thay made the jumo 004 b with only 25 hours livespann, less 100kp, and less 100kg weight that was the only positv evect, thay were able to do this because of the nice construcktion of this turbine (spezial air-cooled construction).
but of course maby the RLM thought at the beginning about the bmw engines to add these turbines on the 262.
the most powerfull turbines was the henschel turbines at the end of the war. but only a few were built.
cu chris3
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There was between 50 and 100 Me262s operational at any one time. How many engines required to keep them operational?
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There was between 50 and 100 Me262s operational at any one time. How many engines required to keep them operational?
thats a god question. i gues a minimum of 400. but dont forget these nunbers of 50-100 operational plans includes many more plans.
a operationl squadron need to hold his numbers a static number of fresch plans out of the factorys every week.
and dont forget the testing units, thay did test the 262 since the midel of 1942.
i thing these testingunits take the most part of the produced jumo engines.
cu chris3
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Engine life like 10 hrs?
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Engine life like 10 hrs?
moin
what do you mean?
cu chris3
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I recall engine life being something of 10 hrs. Do not know if that was after 10 hours of operation or after 10 acerage (write-off), since burns were so common. (later cured with throttle regulator, - post war).
Just that.
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The 004B's throttle could be operated at any speed above 6000rpm without causing any problems for the engine. Late war the minimum throttle rpm was lowered.
Early engines had short lives but even at 25hrs this would mean at least 20 sorties.
To give some perspective to the 004's engine life early Napier Sabre engines had similar engine life spans.
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Thats the one used on the 262 right?
From Rall (He was also testing jets, but that didn't seem to find way into his books), I have only the words about the engines going flame if one was too fast on the throttle. Which was in later jet engines fixed with the regulator.
I knew the Napier Sabre was bad, but not that bad...
BTW, once the radial was ready for the Tempest (I), that was one heck of an engine. Used on the Sea Fury as well, and that one put speed records in solo flights over really long legs.
I can dig up some of this if you like ;)
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Please do, and put it in its own thread.
-C+
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The 004B's throttle could be operated at any speed above 6000rpm without causing any problems for the engine. Late war the minimum throttle rpm was lowered.
Early engines had short lives but even at 25hrs this would mean at least 20 sorties.
To give some perspective to the 004's engine life early Napier Sabre engines had similar engine life spans.
As laid down in the manual, the inital time between overhauls far Sabres was 25 hours, although on early flight test this was not often achieved, mosly because of distorition of the sleeve valves. Engine life itself was somewhat higher, although the overhaul was a time consuming job.
Still, the engin did pass the RAFs 2,000 hp/100 hr bench test in mid 1940 with no problems.
After Napier went to Bristol for some metallurgy help, and did some tinkering of their own with the Sabre production process (better production control and wider use of machining), things improved dramatically. TBO was increased to around 100 hours, by 1943 and 150 by 1944.
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Still, the engin did pass the RAFs 2,000 hp/100 hr bench test in mid 1940 with no problems.
Yes a hand built engine by skilled craftsmen.
Bristol objected and refused to co-operate. Napier thought the idea not worth pursuing. Common sense prevailed and Sabre sleeves were manufactured from nitrided austenitic forgings using Bristol tooling. Centerless grinders diverted from P&W R-2800C production helped with sleeve production.
Graham White
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moin
belive me thay need all 8000 jumo engines for the 262. the live spann of this engines wasn t realy high, less than 25 houers.
and wrong handling causes damages easy too.
You really should try to use more actual facts instead grandmother's urban myths.
There were many different variants of Jumo 004 engines. Yes, the very first engines had operational time of even less than 10 hours. The later engines had increasingly higher operational times between overhauls, 50 hours and upwards.
Besides, the life span - not live spann - was not this. This 25 hours was time between overhauls. You know, maintenance. The engine returned to service after overhaul and was plugged into another plane.
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Just wondering. When they "flamed" (wrong use of throtle for instance), could one put them out, and how much was the damage?
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You really should try to use more actual facts instead grandmother's urban myths.
There were many different variants of Jumo 004 engines. Yes, the very first engines had operational time of even less than 10 hours. The later engines had increasingly higher operational times between overhauls, 50 hours and upwards.
Besides, the life span - not live spann - was not this. This 25 hours was time between overhauls. You know, maintenance. The engine returned to service after overhaul and was plugged into another plane.
moin
ah life hehe sorry, ok maybe im wrong but in the text below i get my informations. btw the time between overhaul and return to service was 50 houers...realy fast for that time.
hope you are able to translate it.
Das Junkers Jumo 004-Strahltriebwerk war das erste serienreife Strahltriebwerk der Welt. Etwa 5.000 Einheiten des Triebwerks , hauptsächlich Jumo 004 B, wurden bis Ende des Zweiten Weltkriegs in Deutschland produziert und vornehmlich für die zweistrahlige Messerschmitt Me 262 sowie die Arado Ar 234 verwendet. Das Strahltriebwerk wurde sogar nach dem Krieg noch in einigen osteuropäischen Ländern in weiterentwickelten Varianten produziert und eingesetzt.
Die Einsatzmöglichkeiten und Vorteile des „neuartigen Flugzeugantriebs“ wurden in Deutschland schon 1939 von Hans von Ohain demonstriert, der bei den Heinkel-Flugzeugwerken als Entwickler angestellt war. Dies geschah erstmals durch einen Testflug der einstrahligen Heinkel He 178 am 27. September 1939, allerdings nicht mit einem Jumo 004, sondern einem HeS 3. Das Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM) zeigte aber kein Interesse an der neuen Technik. Kein Vertreter des RLM erschien zu dieser Vorführung. Göring und Udet erkannten die Möglichkeiten der neuen Technologie nicht. Mit Generalluftzeugmeister Milch als Chef des RLM änderte sich dies. Nun sollte die forcierte Entwicklung von Strahltriebwerken der deutschen Luftwaffe strategische wie taktische Vorteile verschaffen.
Die Junkerswerke in Dessau begannen daraufhin unter Dr. Anselm Franz mit der Entwicklung eines serienreifen und zuverlässigen Strahltriebwerks. Das RLM gab diesem Projekt die Nummer 109-004, woraus sich der Name des Strahltriebwerks Jumo 004 (JUnkers MOtor + Projektnummer) ableitet. Das unscheinbare Präfix „109“ kennzeichnete hingegen alle streng geheimen Projekte, die die Entwicklung von Strahltriebwerken zum Gegenstand hatten.
Der Prototyp des Jumo 004A wurde erstmals gegen Ende 1940 getestet. Im folgenden Januar gelang es, das Strahltriebwerk auf vollen Schub zu beschleunigen, ohne dass es zu Störungen oder Triebwerksplatzern kam. Allerdings verzögerte sich der Einsatz des Triebwerks im Flugzeug, da es immer wieder zu Schwierigkeiten bei den Verdichterschaufeln kam. Im März 1942 konnte es erstmals zu Flugtests an einer Messerschmitt Bf 110 eingesetzt werden. Das Triebwerk hatte später umkonstruiert werden müssen, um den Mangel an Legierungsmetallen auszugleichen, insbesondere Chrom, Nickel, Cobalt und Molybdän. Anstelle von hochtemperaturbeständigem Stahl wurde für die Turbine nun einfaches Tiefziehblech verwendet, das zum Schutz vor Verzunderung mit Aluminium beschichtet wurde. Die für dieses Material erforderliche Kühlung der hohlen Turbinenschaufeln und des Leitrades erfolgte durch zwischen fünter und sechster Stufe sowie hinter der letzten Stufe des Verdichters entnommene Druckluft. Zur Vermeidung von Schwingungsproblemen mit der Beschaufelung wurde die Höchstdrehzahl des Triebwerks von 9000 U/min auf 8700 U/min reduziert. Diese Änderungen hatten einen Leistungsverlust zur Folge – das Jumo 004 A brachte noch 9,8 kN (1000 kp) Schub auf, während das 004 B als „sparstoffarmes“ Triebwerk nur noch über 8,7 kN (890 kp) Schub verfügte. Das Gewicht des Jumo 004 B wurde gegenüber der A-Version um etwa 100 kg reduziert. Trotz des genialen Kühlsystems der „Blechturbine“ waren die „Spar“-Werkstoffe im Jumo 004 B den mechanischen und thermischen Belastungen nicht dauerhaft gewachsen und verursachten häufig Probleme durch gerissene Leit- oder Laufradschaufeln der Turbine. Während das Jumo 004 A noch 100-Stunden-Vollastläufe problemlos überstand, musste beim Jumo 004 B die TBO auf 25 Stunden zurückgenommen werden. Im Einsatz kam es häufig schon vor dieser Zeit zu Schäden an den 004-B-Triebwerken. Die Lebensdauer der Triebwerke hing dabei nicht unerheblich von der Erfahrung des jeweiligen Piloten ab. So führte ein zu schnelles Aufziehen des Leistungsreglers oft zur Überhitzung und Beschädigung der Turbine.
Zum Hochfahren des Triebwerks auf Anlassdrehzahl war ein von Norbert Riedel konstruierter 2-Zylinder-Zweitakt-Boxermotor in der Nabe des Triebwerkeinlaufs eingebaut.
Am 18. Juli 1942 kam es dann zum ersten erfolgreichen Einsatz des Triebwerks Jumo 004 durch einen Prototypen der zweistrahligen Messerschmitt Me 262. Daraufhin bestellte das RLM das Triebwerk als Ausstattung für die neue Flugzeuggeneration und die Serienfertigung des Jumo 004 begann.
Die Triebwerke wurden damals in der Kurzform von Turbine als „Turbo“ bezeichnet, was sich vom lateinischen turbo, turbonis (Wirbelwind, etwas sich drehendes) ableitet. Im englischsprachigen Raum ist die Bezeichnung „Turbojet“ für Strahltriebwerke noch heute üblich.
Eine Besonderheit des Jumo 004 bestand darin, dass es sowohl einen axialen Verdichter (achtstufig, Druckverhältnis 3,1) als auch eine axiale Turbine enthielt, womit es seiner Zeit voraus war. Das in der Gloster Meteor eingesetzte englische Turbostrahltriebwerk besaß einen radialen Verdichter, wodurch es eine wesentlich größere Stirnfläche aufwies. Heute ist die Bauart mit axialen Komponenten Standard, fand aber beispielsweise in den USA erstmals im Jahr 1947 beim Triebwerk General Electric J35 Anwendung.
cu chris3
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I want that 110 with the Jumo's attached. That would rock!
My German is a bit rusted, as is my Russian, but from what this says they still ran 25 hours TBO, depending on the pilot. If the driver handled them roughly they might not get all 25 hours out of them.
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"Just wondering. When they "flamed" (wrong use of throtle for instance), could one put them out, and how much was the damage?"
I have thought about that too. I'd think that if you could manage the fuel feed with throttle you could simply pull the throttle back in case of a flame out, but that would stall the engine totally since it probably would require significant reduction to put the flame out if the fuel is let out of the burn chamber. It would also be possible that after that you could not start the engine again. Well the engine would be dead, but at least it would not be on fire...
Wiki: "Another shortcoming of the engine, common to all early turbojets, was its sluggish throttle response. Worse, it was fairly easy to inject too much fuel into the engine by throttling up too quickly, allowing heat to build up before the cooling air could remove it. This led to softening of the turbine blades, and was a major cause for engine failures."
"The 004D improved fuel efficiency with a two-stage fuel injector, and introduced a new throttle control that avoided dumping too much fuel into the engine during throttle-ups."
Seems to suggest that the pilot had direct control on the fuel feed and e.g. the "onion" in the back of the engine that controlled the escape flow was more or less automatic. Also the attempt to give too much throttle too soon would either heat the engine too much destroying the turbine blades or ultimately cause a flame-out.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Jumo004commandline.jpg
I remember reading that when coming to land the pilot had to listen the engines if there was any noise from the turbine blades scraping the inner walls of the engine indicating that it was time for an engine change.
-C+
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moin
ah life hehe sorry, ok maybe im wrong but in the text below i get my informations. btw the time between overhaul and return to service was 50 houers...realy fast for that time.
hope you are able to translate it.
Das Junkers Jumo 004-Strahltriebwerk war das erste serienreife Strahltriebwerk der Welt. Etwa 5.000 Einheiten des Triebwerks , hauptsächlich Jumo 004 B, wurden bis Ende des Zweiten Weltkriegs in Deutschland produziert und vornehmlich für die zweistrahlige Messerschmitt Me 262 sowie die Arado Ar 234 verwendet. Das Strahltriebwerk wurde sogar nach dem Krieg noch in einigen osteuropäischen Ländern in weiterentwickelten Varianten produziert und eingesetzt.
Die Einsatzmöglichkeiten und Vorteile des „neuartigen Flugzeugantriebs“ wurden in Deutschland schon 1939 von Hans von Ohain demonstriert, der bei den Heinkel-Flugzeugwerken als Entwickler angestellt war. Dies geschah erstmals durch einen Testflug der einstrahligen Heinkel He 178 am 27. September 1939, allerdings nicht mit einem Jumo 004, sondern einem HeS 3. Das Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM) zeigte aber kein Interesse an der neuen Technik. Kein Vertreter des RLM erschien zu dieser Vorführung. Göring und Udet erkannten die Möglichkeiten der neuen Technologie nicht. Mit Generalluftzeugmeister Milch als Chef des RLM änderte sich dies. Nun sollte die forcierte Entwicklung von Strahltriebwerken der deutschen Luftwaffe strategische wie taktische Vorteile verschaffen.
Die Junkerswerke in Dessau begannen daraufhin unter Dr. Anselm Franz mit der Entwicklung eines serienreifen und zuverlässigen Strahltriebwerks. Das RLM gab diesem Projekt die Nummer 109-004, woraus sich der Name des Strahltriebwerks Jumo 004 (JUnkers MOtor + Projektnummer) ableitet. Das unscheinbare Präfix „109“ kennzeichnete hingegen alle streng geheimen Projekte, die die Entwicklung von Strahltriebwerken zum Gegenstand hatten.
Der Prototyp des Jumo 004A wurde erstmals gegen Ende 1940 getestet. Im folgenden Januar gelang es, das Strahltriebwerk auf vollen Schub zu beschleunigen, ohne dass es zu Störungen oder Triebwerksplatzern kam. Allerdings verzögerte sich der Einsatz des Triebwerks im Flugzeug, da es immer wieder zu Schwierigkeiten bei den Verdichterschaufeln kam. Im März 1942 konnte es erstmals zu Flugtests an einer Messerschmitt Bf 110 eingesetzt werden. Das Triebwerk hatte später umkonstruiert werden müssen, um den Mangel an Legierungsmetallen auszugleichen, insbesondere Chrom, Nickel, Cobalt und Molybdän. Anstelle von hochtemperaturbeständigem Stahl wurde für die Turbine nun einfaches Tiefziehblech verwendet, das zum Schutz vor Verzunderung mit Aluminium beschichtet wurde. Die für dieses Material erforderliche Kühlung der hohlen Turbinenschaufeln und des Leitrades erfolgte durch zwischen fünter und sechster Stufe sowie hinter der letzten Stufe des Verdichters entnommene Druckluft. Zur Vermeidung von Schwingungsproblemen mit der Beschaufelung wurde die Höchstdrehzahl des Triebwerks von 9000 U/min auf 8700 U/min reduziert. Diese Änderungen hatten einen Leistungsverlust zur Folge – das Jumo 004 A brachte noch 9,8 kN (1000 kp) Schub auf, während das 004 B als „sparstoffarmes“ Triebwerk nur noch über 8,7 kN (890 kp) Schub verfügte. Das Gewicht des Jumo 004 B wurde gegenüber der A-Version um etwa 100 kg reduziert. Trotz des genialen Kühlsystems der „Blechturbine“ waren die „Spar“-Werkstoffe im Jumo 004 B den mechanischen und thermischen Belastungen nicht dauerhaft gewachsen und verursachten häufig Probleme durch gerissene Leit- oder Laufradschaufeln der Turbine. Während das Jumo 004 A noch 100-Stunden-Vollastläufe problemlos überstand, musste beim Jumo 004 B die TBO auf 25 Stunden zurückgenommen werden. Im Einsatz kam es häufig schon vor dieser Zeit zu Schäden an den 004-B-Triebwerken. Die Lebensdauer der Triebwerke hing dabei nicht unerheblich von der Erfahrung des jeweiligen Piloten ab. So führte ein zu schnelles Aufziehen des Leistungsreglers oft zur Überhitzung und Beschädigung der Turbine.
Zum Hochfahren des Triebwerks auf Anlassdrehzahl war ein von Norbert Riedel konstruierter 2-Zylinder-Zweitakt-Boxermotor in der Nabe des Triebwerkeinlaufs eingebaut.
Am 18. Juli 1942 kam es dann zum ersten erfolgreichen Einsatz des Triebwerks Jumo 004 durch einen Prototypen der zweistrahligen Messerschmitt Me 262. Daraufhin bestellte das RLM das Triebwerk als Ausstattung für die neue Flugzeuggeneration und die Serienfertigung des Jumo 004 begann.
Die Triebwerke wurden damals in der Kurzform von Turbine als „Turbo“ bezeichnet, was sich vom lateinischen turbo, turbonis (Wirbelwind, etwas sich drehendes) ableitet. Im englischsprachigen Raum ist die Bezeichnung „Turbojet“ für Strahltriebwerke noch heute üblich.
Eine Besonderheit des Jumo 004 bestand darin, dass es sowohl einen axialen Verdichter (achtstufig, Druckverhältnis 3,1) als auch eine axiale Turbine enthielt, womit es seiner Zeit voraus war. Das in der Gloster Meteor eingesetzte englische Turbostrahltriebwerk besaß einen radialen Verdichter, wodurch es eine wesentlich größere Stirnfläche aufwies. Heute ist die Bauart mit axialen Komponenten Standard, fand aber beispielsweise in den USA erstmals im Jahr 1947 beim Triebwerk General Electric J35 Anwendung.
cu chris3
can someone translate that it looks kinda important that he dug up
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moin
i have find a program in the wep. hope it worked well.
The young junkers ray engine Jumo 004 was the first ray engine ready to go into mass production of the world. About 5,000 unities of the engine, primarily Jumo 004 B, were produced till the end of the Second World War in Germany and were used particularly for zweistrahlige Messerschmitt Me 262 as well as the Arado are 234. The ray engine was produced even after the war still in some East European countries in developed variations and was used. The application possibilities and advantages of the „new airplane impulse“ were demonstrated in Germany already in 1939 by Hans von Ohain who was done with the Heinkel aircraft plants as a developer. This happened for the first time by a test flight einstrahligen Heinkel Hey 178 on the 27th of September, 1939, indeed, not with a Jumo 004, but to a HeS 3. However the imperial ministry of aviation (RLM) showed no interest in the new technology. No representative of the RLM appeared for this presentation. Göring and Udet did not recognise the possibilities of the new technology. With general air stuff master Milch as a boss of the RLM changed ead. Now the forced development of ray engines of the German air force should get strategical like tactical advantages. As a result the young junkers works in Dessau began under Dr. Anselm Franz with the development of a reliable ray engine ready to go into mass production. The RLM gave the number 109-004 to this project from what the name of the ray engine Jumo 004 (young nobleman's engine + is derived project number). However, the insignificant prefix "109" marked all top secret projects which had the development of ray engines to the object.
As a result the young junkers works in Dessau began under Dr. Anselm Franz with the development of a reliable ray engine ready to go into mass production. The RLM gave the number 109-004 to this project from what the name of the ray engine Jumo 004 (young junkers engine + is derived project number). However, the insignificant prefix "109" marked all top secret projects which had the development of ray engines to the object. The prototype of the Jumo 004A was tested for the first time by the end of 1940. In the next January one succeeded in accelerating the ray engine on full push, without it came for disturbances or Triebwerksplatzern. Indeed, the application of the engine was delayed in the airplane, because it came over and over again to difficulties with the compressor shovels. In March, 1942 it could be used for the first time to flight tests in a Messerschmitt Bf 110. The engine had had to become later umkonstruiert to compensate the lack of alloy metals, in particular chrome, nickel, cobalt and molybdenum. Now instead of hochtemperaturbeständigem steel an easy Tiefziehblech which was coated for the protection from Verzunderung with aluminium was used for the turbine. The cooling necessary for this material of the hollow turbine shovels and the guide wheel occurred by between fünter and the sixth step as well as behind the last step of the compressor taken air pressure. To the avoidance of oscillation problems with the Beschaufelung the overspeed of the engine of from 9000 revos to 8700 revos was reduced. These changes entailed an achievement loss – the Jumo 004 A raised another 9.8 kN (in 1000 kp) push, while 004 B ordered more than 8.7 kN (890 kp) push as "a sparstoffarmes" engine only. The weight of the Jumo 004 B was reduced compared with the A version about 100 kg. In spite of the brilliant chill system of the "metal turbine" the "Spar" materials had not grown in the Jumo 004 B to the mechanical and thermal charges permanently and caused often problems by sly leading shovels or traversing wheel shovels of the turbine. While the Jumo 004 A still got over 100-hours-full branch runs easily, had to be taken back with the Jumo 004 B the TBO on 25 hours. In use application came it often already before this time to damages to the 004-B engines. Besides, the life span of the engines did not depend unimportant on the experience of the respective pilot. Thus a too quick raising of the achievement regulator often led to the Überhitzung and damage of the turbine.
In order to boot up the engine on occasion speed one 2 cylinder two-stroke opposed cylinder engine contrived by Norbert Riedel was inserted in the hub of the engine finish. Then on the 18th of July, 1942 it came first successful application of the engine Jumo 004 by a prototype zweistrahligen Messerschmitt Me 262. As a result the RLM ordered the engine as an equipment for the new airplane generation and the quantity production of the Jumo 004 began. At that time the engines were called in the short form by turbine as "a Turbo" what is derived from Latin turbo, turbonis (whirlwind, a little bit turning). Still today in the English-speaking space the name "Turbojet" is usual for ray engines. A specific feature of the Jumo 004 consisted in the fact that it contained an axial compressor (8-stage, pressure ratio 3.1) as well as an axial turbine with which it was to his time ahead. The English Turbostrahltriebwerk used in the Gloster meteor owned a radial compressor by which it showed a substantially bigger forehead surface. Today the design with axial components is a standard, however, general Electric found, for example, in the USA for the first time in 1947 with the engine J35 use.
cu and a nice start in the new year chris3