Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Reschke on December 16, 2008, 09:19:58 AM
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OK I know at some point many of us have discussed this either here or on other parts of this board. Here is what I am most likely going to get...ONKYO HT-S5100 Black 7.1 Channel Home Theater System. Newegg has this thing for $399 after $100 instant discount (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882120081). I can pick it up locally for $429+tax and have some place that I don't have to ship it back to IF something were to go wrong.
I have spent many days and nights over the last year or so looking and I am sold on this one since I once owned a kick butt ONKYO stereo system way back in college and loved it and the way it sounded.
SO what other systems would you guys recommend that ARE NOT OVER $1000? Just wondering since I am going low budget but expandable. By the way I am buying this one soon. Thanks
Sorry Skuzzy I was thinking some might be using this for other things aside from just listening to music.
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We had a system installed here at my shop that has a hi def projector, in ceiling surround sound with a 100" screen that comes down when you power up the system. The complete wireless setup with bluray was just over $15,000.00. We use it to have meetings and go over drawings. But it is killer for movies.
Sony Blueray BDP-S300
Projector is SXRD Bravia
Wireless Unerversal Remote Base Station MRF 350
Denon AVR-1908 Multizone Source Select
For power Panamax M4300-PM
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I would not want wireless speakers.
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Reschke, for the 1,000 budget u have listed, I assume this is receiver, speakers, and subwoofer? I have heard on most audio/theater boards you probably should budget about 70 percent of budget on the speakers. I have no knowledge of the htib stuff as I like quality audio. :rock I spent 1400 dollars on a pair of subwoofers alone :rock.
http://www.svsound.com/products-sys-sbs_black.cfm (http://www.svsound.com/products-sys-sbs_black.cfm) has a nice system of speakers but you will need an audio/video receiver and maybe a dvd player if you dont have one.
Elemental Designs and AV123 are internet direct companies and make very high quality speakers, but you will be a little over budget with these. I dont know, have you looked online at Circuit City, Best Buy, and even Amazon online?
Hope this gets you started somewhere, and maybe others will chime in too.
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My main home system is based around my 61" tv. I have a sony surround system on it but could not tell you which one it is. It sounds great and if I remember correctly it was about 600. There are alot of systems under 1000. I suggest writing down the info on one your interested in and checking for problems on the net.
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Yep been there and done it. I have spec'd it out with several different speakers and the amps, receivers, etc... but end up coming back to this little number because of the dollar amount and the bang for the buck.
Circuit City has the same setup for $429 and free shipping or local pick up. I have listened to this one in the enclosed area that CC has and at a friends house but he has added some components to this like his record player and a few other items. He loves it and he is audio sales/installation tech for a local AV company and picked this up as soon as he saw it on Newegg.
I love me some great high end audio as well and used to have a kick butt Onkyo setup when I was in high school and college but sold it like an idiot. To replace what I had then would cost me several thousand dollars now.
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PM me what you need. DVD, speakers, etc and give me a budget to work with. You'll have it by Tomorrow evening.
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:rock I spent 1400 dollars on a pair of subwoofers alone :rock.
Dang audiophiles
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Dang audiophools
Fixed :)
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Dang audiophiles
Well actually $1400 is cheap for a single let alone a pair.
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Well actually $1400 is cheap for a single let alone a pair.
I have a pair of AV123 MFW-15 Subs. They tied for 5th on his list
From Craigsub, from avs forums....
The scoring summary ...
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Here is the scoring summary with the Home Theater score and Music score, respectively shown as (HT-M).
Prices and whether the items are available Internet Direct or from a store are now included. Keep in mind that ID pricing will usually be firm, or slightly discounted, where some BM products will see substantial discounts. BM = Brick and Mortar. ID = Internet Direct. ID/SI = shipping included.
Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2200 ID/SI): 116 points (63-53)
Epik Conquest ($1599 ID): 112 points (60-52)
SVS PB13-Ultra ($1499 ID): 109 points (57-52)
Epik Castle ($999 ID): 109 points (59-50)
AV123 MFW-15 Duals: 109 points (56-53) (note, duals were tested as duals are offered as a package)
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): 105 points (57-48)
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50)
AV123 MFW-15 ($599 ID): 103 points (53-50)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 102 points (54-48)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)
eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47)
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo ($899 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo ($799 ID): 92 points (45-47)
VMPS VSS ($1650 BM and ID): 92 points (45-47)
Epik Valor ($549 ID): 91 points (44-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo ($699 ID): 91 points (45-46)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Axiom EP-500 ($1230 ID/SI): 90 points (43-47)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo ($599 ID): 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo ($499 ID): 86 points (40-46)
Rocket UFW-12 ($999 ID): 85 points (provisional) (35-50)
Elemental Designs A2-300 ($350 ID/SI): 83 points (44-39)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)
Dana Audio 600 ($869 ID): 83 points (36-47)
Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)
BIC H-100 ($229 eBay): 78 points (40-38)
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Here are the comments on the mfw-15's that are tied for 5th place of the subs he tested.
3c. AV123 MFW-15
Listening results: Pairing two MFW-15's does exactly what one would expect, it adds a signifigant amount of slam to the areas in which the single unit excelled. What a pair of MFW-15's does above 20 Hz is what makes it the 3rd alternative in the $1500 and under category for excellent performance for the $$$. On music, it is tight, clean and tuneful. It is the other sub combo the brought the Steely Dan 2AN disc to life. On movies, one will experience room shaking bass that is visceral, with the best slam of any subwoofer in its class. It is overshadowed below 20 Hz by the Castle and Ultra, and it will be up to the listener to decide which of the 3 "109 pointers" works best in his system.
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Well actually $1400 is cheap for a single let alone a pair.
Not quite.
http://www.definitivetech.com/Products/products.aspx?path=Subwoofers&productid=SuperCube%20I (http://www.definitivetech.com/Products/products.aspx?path=Subwoofers&productid=SuperCube%20I)
But
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-sb12plus.cfm (http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-sb12plus.cfm)
or
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-pc12_plus.cfm (http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-pc12_plus.cfm)
Smoke most subs up to twice as much as themselves, with the SVS's leading the way (with SVS, I'd put them up against ANY sub out there). I still don't need a subwoofer for my system, and I'd have it and my stereo on separate wiring circuits.
Most don't do the research before purchasing. They get advice from a friend and expect "their room and equipment, to sound like their friends." Every room is different, not only size, but floors (carpet, hardwood floors), amount of glass (french doors, bunch of windows) and furniture. But more important, ears are the deciding factor. Even worse, they go shopping with a "consumers report" in hand and it is pointless.
When I recommend "systems", I recommend a minimum of 3 products per item. Just because I enjoy my KEF's, doesn't mean someone else will. Variety of brands is essential as some may not be as accessible to the purchaser. But auditioning the products is the key.
I've yet to see a room that "needs" or let alone "justifies the use of two subwoofers". If I could own my own business given sufficient funds, I'd own a HT store. I enjoy it and embrace the challenge of meeting budgets, listening to the people who benefit from the advice given to them after taking said recommended advice.
The problem with this Forum than any of the other HT Forums I frequent, are the pissing matches (this is directed at the Forum entire). All this does is further confuse the purchaser.
Again, Reschke PM me if you wish. If you don't, avoid Bose at all costs.
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Here are the comments on the mfw-15's that are tied for 5th place of the subs he tested.
3c. AV123 MFW-15
Listening results: Pairing two MFW-15's does exactly what one would expect, it adds a signifigant amount of slam to the areas in which the single unit excelled. What a pair of MFW-15's does above 20 Hz is what makes it the 3rd alternative in the $1500 and under category for excellent performance for the $$$. On music, it is tight, clean and tuneful. It is the other sub combo the brought the Steely Dan 2AN disc to life. On movies, one will experience room shaking bass that is visceral, with the best slam of any subwoofer in its class. It is overshadowed below 20 Hz by the Castle and Ultra, and it will be up to the listener to decide which of the 3 "109 pointers" works best in his system.
Went to the website and they minimize the Frequency pic. I see a sharp fall-off with the thumbnail they provide. This is a problem with AV123. I know folks who have Rocket speakers and that is entirely different.
A 15" subwoofer is excessive for 90% of rooms, let alone two Rondar. But I'm not going to get into pissing matches over this.
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Went to the website and they minimize the Frequency pic. I see a sharp fall-off with the thumbnail they provide. This is a problem with AV123. I know folks who have Rocket speakers and that is entirely different.
A 15" subwoofer is excessive for 90% of rooms, let alone two Rondar. But I'm not going to get into pissing matches over this.
Wasnt aware of any such matches Mash. I am going by what is published. AV123 is within driving distance of me and they make and sell good products. You like SVS fine. I like AV123 fine. All are fine subs.
Here is the cut n paste from av123 website you mentioned.
Typical in-room response extends to 15-17Hz. Below 20Hz, the average human cannot hear so that is where the shaking really kicks in. Want to tear down your house without the help of a front end loader? Pick up two MFW-15's! The MFW-15 is not all about Home Theater explosions and aggressive impact. It certainly can handle those things with aplomb but it also handles your favorite music as well. From a timpani-driven crescendo in your favorite score to The Police's great bass line in the live version of 'Don't Stand So Close to Me' to Massive Attack's entire Mezzanine album, the MFW-15 delivers. Crushing bass? Check. Effortless presentation? Check. Sweet and subtle? Check. Gorgeous cabinet? Check. Oh, we have not told you about the cabinet yet have we?
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj83/Frazz_y/mfw-15-measurement.jpg)
I will agree the graph is pretty useless but where is the rolloff you mentioned?
Here is a cut and paste of their posted speaker specifications.
Specifications
• System: Single driver, folded, slot port with front termination
• Driver: 15" custom woofer
• Amplifier: Customer 350 watt high efficiency design.
• Control: Easy-access top panel with gain, variable phase and crossover
• Input: High and low level in and out plus LFE in (crossover defeat).
• Frequency Response: 18-200Hz; 15-17Hz in room low end. Greater than 115dB output above 35Hz and 103dB max output at 20Hz at one meter.
• Dimensions: (H x D x W): 23.94" x 22.44" x 18.125"
• Weight: ship weight = 125 lbs each
• Price: $599 each in Satin Black. $699 each in real wood finishes. Dual sub special pricing available.
• 3 Year Warranty
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Wasnt aware of any such matches Mash. I am going by what is published. AV123 is within driving distance of me and they make and sell good products. You like SVS fine. I like AV123 fine. All are fine subs.
Here is the cut n paste from av123 website you mentioned.
Typical in-room response extends to 15-17Hz. Below 20Hz, the average human cannot hear so that is where the shaking really kicks in. Want to tear down your house without the help of a front end loader? Pick up two MFW-15's! The MFW-15 is not all about Home Theater explosions and aggressive impact. It certainly can handle those things with aplomb but it also handles your favorite music as well. From a timpani-driven crescendo in your favorite score to The Police's great bass line in the live version of 'Don't Stand So Close to Me' to Massive Attack's entire Mezzanine album, the MFW-15 delivers. Crushing bass? Check. Effortless presentation? Check. Sweet and subtle? Check. Gorgeous cabinet? Check. Oh, we have not told you about the cabinet yet have we?
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj83/Frazz_y/mfw-15-measurement.jpg)
I will agree the graph is pretty useless but where is the rolloff you mentioned?
Here is a cut and paste of their posted speaker specifications.
Specifications
• System: Single driver, folded, slot port with front termination
• Driver: 15" custom woofer
• Amplifier: Customer 350 watt high efficiency design.
• Control: Easy-access top panel with gain, variable phase and crossover
• Input: High and low level in and out plus LFE in (crossover defeat).
• Frequency Response: 18-200Hz; 15-17Hz in room low end. Greater than 115dB output above 35Hz and 103dB max output at 20Hz at one meter.
• Dimensions: (H x D x W): 23.94" x 22.44" x 18.125"
• Weight: ship weight = 125 lbs each
• Price: $599 each in Satin Black. $699 each in real wood finishes. Dual sub special pricing available.
• 3 Year Warranty
I understand Rondar. In the past, there have been some good pissing matches over this kind of stuff.
Regarding the AV123 frequency curve pic and other info. What I'm saying is that they are "too close to the chest" and do "get the buyer excited" by "promoting 2 subs".
Take Svs. Click on either of the links I provided, scroll down to the frequency curve. That is what you want in a Subwoofer and is VERY hard to find (consistency throughout the used frequency range). It's why I'll recommend them above all others. While they are like AV123 (only available on line), they provide a plethora of info. Not only that, when you email them a question, the owners reply. They will NEVER fail to provide answers and I mean never. Give them the dimensions of your room, they give you best fit (usually a box and cylinder). They'll also tell you "why" they chose that sub.
Most fall into the trap of "hey, this goes down to 15hz according to the manufacturer so it is the best". That is suicide with money. Not only are frequencies of 22hz so rare, it will have such a low SPL, that it will be a "non-factor".
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Again, Reschke PM me if you wish. If you don't, avoid Bose at all costs.
Thanks for the offer and I appreciate it. I have listened to and have fallen in love with the way this setup sounds and already have it on the way.
One of my requirements was that it should not have a DVD player of any type associated with it. I have my own and I will be upgrading to a blue ray player WHEN I feel like the prices have fallen enough to make it a necessity for the movies coming out.
Some may call me a little snobbish about what I like for audio but nothing on the same level as some people I know through my friend who I mentioned earlier. I am also a realist as far as what I can afford and what sounds good to me. I don't need $40,000+ in audio equipment to show that I know what good sound is. I am not saying that anyone here would spend that but I did help install a Bang & Olufsen integrated setup in a house that cost the guy around $50,000 once the installation was complete. All I did was fish speaker wire through the walls and help setup speakers in the ceiling. I can appreciate the fact that I have a good base point to build off of for the future.
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I dont know what "too close to the chest" means. But I know different things sound different in different rooms. When I was looking at subs, I looked real hard at svs, elemental designs, and av123. In the end I had decided on av123 as I could drive there and save 200+ dollars on shipping. And I had the time to do it. I'm not loyal to one brand. There is no way anyone realistically is going to pay (260 in my case) to have them shipped one way, listen for 30 days then pay to ship them back (another 260) and try another brand and pay shipping again and fight damage. I had already decided what I was going to buy based on my ease of purchase. Then I ran across Craigsub's list and I felt it was the right thing for me to do. AV123 has a money back 30 day trial period but you pay shipping.
As far as 2 subs go... it all depends on what you want. I am aware you like one, and one only. But with 2 subs or more :), for the same given volume the cone movement of each speaker is drastically reduced. So, you will have faster transient response as the cone does not have to move in and out as far as one single driver. But you already know all of this. Anyway I dont wanna argue either, but tell my side of the story as I feel it. There are some people in here using 3 monitors :) One is enough for me. It all depends on what a person wants.
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Reschke, glad you found what makes you happy. After all, that is the end result that you were searching for.
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Oh yeah an it will be here FRIDAY! That means I get to have it all setup and running in time for BOWL SEASON!!!!
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I dont know what "too close to the chest" means. But I know different things sound different in different rooms. When I was looking at subs, I looked real hard at svs, elemental designs, and av123. In the end I had decided on av123 as I could drive there and save 200+ dollars on shipping. And I had the time to do it. I'm not loyal to one brand. There is no way anyone realistically is going to pay (260 in my case) to have them shipped one way, listen for 30 days then pay to ship them back (another 260) and try another brand and pay shipping again and fight damage. I had already decided what I was going to buy based on my ease of purchase. Then I ran across Craigsub's list and I felt it was the right thing for me to do. AV123 has a money back 30 day trial period but you pay shipping.
As far as 2 subs go... it all depends on what you want. I am aware you like one, and one only. But with 2 subs or more :), for the same given volume the cone movement of each speaker is drastically reduced. So, you will have faster transient response as the cone does not have to move in and out as far as one single driver. But you already know all of this. Anyway I dont wanna argue either, but tell my side of the story as I feel it. There are some people in here using 3 monitors :) One is enough for me. It all depends on what a person wants.
Again, the Frequency curve of the 15" is worse than properly driven 12's. Two won't "make it only better". They provide no proper info. That is what "too close to the chest", it is distinctly reminiscent of Bose.
Reschke got what he wanted and that is the ultimate goal. I'm out of this discussion now.
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Again, the Frequency curve of the 15" is worse than properly driven 12's. Two won't "make it only better". They provide no proper info. That is what "too close to the chest", it is distinctly reminiscent of Bose.
Reschke got what he wanted and that is the ultimate goal. I'm out of this discussion now.
SVS builds subs with 2 woofers in them when I just looked at their site.
Lol no way are they (av123) even close to bose. YOU think what you want and I will think what I want. I have no idea how you come to your conclusions. Just because YOU say something is so, doesnt make it so.
We both know the other one is wrong :devil so I am going to drop it. As you said earlier it can cause a big argument and I'm done.
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Horn loading is the only true way to go with subs and that requires a total rebuild of the listening room, estimated cost $10k. :)
I have a folded horn but it's not a true subwoofer, it mainly gives punch to higher bass (where most is needed anyway).
If I had to get a HT sub, something like Velodyne 1812 would fit the bill. Some subs @ http://www.soundstage.com/surrounded/surrounded200308.htm
Even though even the 1812 can't match the dynamics of a horn sub. Power compression is a real issue especially in large home theater rooms where active piston created by the sub is small compared to the total air volume. If you've ever listened to a good car subwoofer you know what I mean - the punch is mindblowing inside the car as the piston directly modulates the airspace inside the vehicle. The 18+12" drivers just can't match the air volume a horn with 2-4x18" can move.
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OBTW
I wouldn't buy a BOSE setup if I had to. I might sell it if it were won or given to me but I would never buy one.
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OBTW
I wouldn't buy a BOSE setup if I had to. I might sell it if it were won or given to me but I would never buy one.
:aok