Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Cobra on August 05, 2000, 08:27:00 AM
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Buff guns are at a good balance right now. A sloppy attack on them gets you killed, a smart attack on them gets you THE kill. Buffs have a reasonable chance of making it to target, therefore the buff pilots have a purpose in the game.
The player controlled guns are fine. Thank goodness no otto here. The balance is very good.
All lot of posts recently have said to tone the guns down to force the buffs to fly in formation to survive.
Well didn't the attacking fighters make their initial attack runs on the buffs as squadron formations. So looks like you shouldn't expect to perform a solo, sloppy attack on a buff and survive.
The Balance is good IMO opinion. I think HTC got the compromise right on this one.
Cobra
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I could not disagree more.
Buff guns are self-aimed turbolasers.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
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Yeah well too bad, they are perfectly fine now.
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RAM, the .50s on buffs are no different than the .50s on any other American plane! The only .50s that are different are the ones on the halftracks, where they use the M2 heavy barrel 50 cal. In all cases, however, the 50 cal projectile is the same.
If it is the range you are concerned with, I suspect that this is due to the fact that the bomber is typically firing defensively in directions OPPOSITE to its direction of travel, thereby decreasing the drag on the projectile.
If you want to test this for yourself, have a buddy go up with you in the training arena. One of you in a B26, and the other in a P-51. Have the B26 trail the P-51 and fire at it with the bombadier's 50 cal. until you determine the max range that you can still get pings. Next, have the P-51 trail the B26. Have the pony shoot at the B26 until the max range can be determined.
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(http://www.fmfnet.com/cmc/images/109mov.gif)
"....where'd who go!"
Troxel
VMFA-212 "Lancers" (http://www.fmfnet.com/cmc)
[This message has been edited by troxel (edited 08-05-2000).]
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Yep. Buff guns are fine.
popeye
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Yep, buff guns are fine by me. Weaken them and you'll see a return to the Tour 1 & 2 flying at +35k if they've got any chance of making it to the target. None of us want that again!!
Formation flying is very good fun, but it is rarely possible and if the formation is too large then you get a lot of lag resulting in no advantage of a buff formation at all.
Regards
'Nexx'
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Originally posted by troxel:
If it is the range you are concerned with, I suspect that this is due to the fact that the bomber is typically firing defensively in directions OPPOSITE to its direction of travel, thereby decreasing the drag on the projectile.
Only bad thing here is that .50 caliber bullet has range of 1.4-1.5k no matter which direction you're shooting at.
I have shot at Typhoon from 1.3 till 1.4k and got hits with P-47D guns. (I doubt that 20mph faster Typhoon will be shot from behind my P-47D by me)
I've also made strafe runs on M16s so that shots were fired 1.5-1.4k and break off, with hits and kills.
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Maybe the 50´s are the same, but they all aim at the same spot, and thats the problem. All those 50 bullits comming in one concentrated beam, if you hit well with one bullit you will hit with them all, which make them as powerfull as 30mms. Try to take a shot with a B17 at a friendly plane with killshooter on, Then you will experience what the effect is, I swear not even a Corsair would compare to that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Make only guns fire from the turret you sit in, or make the other turrets fire with some kind of inaccuracy. After all the same gunner couldent be so many places at once could they?
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You know Grinbird's got a point there.....
However, if the buff guns get nerfed then we'll see em at 35k again.....
unless.......what if the buffs (b17s especially) were a lot tougher? Make it so the buffs can still fly after a hell of a battering.....leave engine damage more or less the same but beef up the wings and tail. It'd make 1 on 1 fights last much longer and really make then fighter jocks work for a kill. You'd def have to balance the bomber gun damage though or you'll have a major problem of these seemingly impregnable buffs flying around killin fighters.
See, I think this would make things more interesting for the buff pilot as well.....having to nurse home a heavily damaged aircraft (assuming the fighter gets shot down or gives up).
Swoop
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Unless you are dead level 6 at about 600 yds back, how many guns can fire on you?...2? 4? maybe 6. Well a P51 has 6 guns on you...and a P47 bears 8 guns on you.
A -1C hog...thats only got 4, but they are Hispanos.
So u want the slow, less agile buff to only bring 2 guns to bear while the fighter can pick his angle of attack and bring all 6 or 8 guns of his to track on the target?
I don't think the point is valid...the fighter is holding the cards in the fighter/buff engagement. It is the fighters hand to win or loose with the way the buff guns are now.
Cobra
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I dont agree at all .. . the buff guns are too concentrated , the top gun should not be able to fire direct 6 the others are able to fire at angles that are rediculous. Just ck out any b17 at a show or something and ck out the gun angles available to them..noooo way. Personnaly i like buffing for the destruction it reaps, not to go up and shoot down fighters left n right. Get HT co to get the guns set correctly and the dreaded Ackstar fools will disappear also.
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I like em as is. Balance is achieved when there are as many complaints from both sides of the coin as we see now.
I persoannly like to force the gunner to jump positions so I usually try a 9 or 3 o'clock attack and roll back into them from the opposite 9 or 3. Then at some point I come at them from low 6 and then I pour it into them. Works about 4 out of 5 times (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Would work all the time if I had about 5 seconds more of patience.
-Westy
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Originally posted by GrinBird:
Maybe the 50´s are the same, but they all aim at the same spot, and thats the problem. All those 50 bullits comming in one concentrated beam, if you hit well with one bullit you will hit with them all, which make them as powerfull as 30mms. Try to take a shot with a B17 at a friendly plane with killshooter on, Then you will experience what the effect is, I swear not even a Corsair would compare to that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Make only guns fire from the turret you sit in, or make the other turrets fire with some kind of inaccuracy. After all the same gunner couldent be so many places at once could they?
I have noticed that .50 caliber rounds disperses fairly alot..
Ie. if you shoot fighter from 300 yards in your fighter, you will see hits with .50 calibers all around, even if your convergence is around 300 yds.
Might get hits, but not in the same spot though, so the power of '30mm' is bit too much said (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ps. I don't prefer using 30mm anyway, lousy pea shot..
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Originally posted by skippy:
and the dreaded Ackstar fools will disappear also.
Unfortunately those never dissapears, unless you do something what would make ackstarrers mad and they would excuse that they didn't ackstar and things would be back to normal.
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:P Posting my still unchanged opinion (again):
The guns are fine, but to make it more fair/realistic we need to increase recoil dispersion.
Although I must say, I think the way AW handled gunnery it was very good too. Not the part about not being able to fly and gun the same plane, or the part about modified buff tough and buff gunnery, but that each gunner had only one gun to use. BUT that you could take an bellybutton load of peoples with you to gun it. It was very fun, and the commaradarie of a full buff crew was awsome. One of the funnest parts of the game.
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Ah yes, I remember the adrenaline rush of the fighter attacks...the screaming: Fighter diving 3 oc Hi! (and all guns that could face scrambled to fire at it)
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I fly buffs alot.
I hunt buffs alot.
In a fighter, I consider buffs to be a pretty easy kill.
In a buff, when a fighter attacks me, I figure I'm prolly gonna die.
Stop whining about buff guns until you spend a great deal of time flying and defending buffs. If it's so dang easy to kill attacking fighters with a buffs defensive guns, then prove it! Go trolling for fighters, see how you do.
It seems that no one who complains about buff guns spends a reasonable amount of their time using them.
eskimo
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Um, I fly a decent percentage of "my time" in buffs. I always feel like, "Yeah, get a little closer you little bugger", whever I see a fighter when I am buffing. Then I usually kill them.
Whenever I am in a fighter, I set up an attack, dive in from a side angle, or belly strafe, and usually get blown to bits befer I land enough hits to do anything.
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BUFF GUNS ARE FINE stop complaining, they are perfectly fine except for people who attack from dead 6, that's the oly time u get 6 guns trained on you, from the side and bottom, u get 2! And fighters get 6 or 4!
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I've said this before, best balance of buff guns vs fighters in 11 years of online simming, and I do fly both.
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As my suggestions indicate, I believe the guns and armor on the bombers ARE correct.
The best I've seen before too.
However, I think it can be made more realistic by only allowing one gun per person, or increasing the recoil effect.
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I've seen plenty of 32-35K buffs in this version (anyone here remember the nonstop parade of Rook buffs A1-Knight HQ? I'm sure a few do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)). The relative toughness of guns and/or buffs have nothing to do with that tactic. It may be an excuse that some use for doing (and I am not necessarily saying it is wrong), but the ones that do it are going to do it no matter what.
I finally decided that chasing those guys to the stratosphere wasn't worth any amount of time. Since I don't really like radar to begin with, they are doing me a favor. And, with my flying down to a bare minimum at the moment (lots of real life stuff) I won't spend my one sortie chasing a buff at 32-35K that can outperform anything I can send after it.
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Um, I fly a decent percentage of "my time" in buffs. I always feel like, "Yeah, get a little closer you little bugger", whever I see a fighter when I am buffing. Then I usually kill them.
There are times, while flying a buff that I know the pilot is going to be an easy kill. There are other times I know the opposite to be true. Buffs are easy targets for someone that knows how to attack them.
AKDejaVu
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During this tour:
1 - Flying B17. Every time someone has attacked my B17, he has been shot down. I've only got killed by surprise attacks, else the attacker is dead, and sometimes me too.
2 - Flying 109G10 3x20 against B17. Every time I attacked a B17 (any angle) I've been killed. Sometimes the buff has been killed also.
Now lets talk a bit about play balance. A single buff can negate fighters at a single airfield bombing the hangars. Actually buffs have a laser precission against ground targets, so, a single buff can cause critical damage to any base. If we give them the hability to kill easily any single defender fighter, we have created a monster.
About the 50s of the buffs, try to hit a P51 from another P51 at d1.2 with all the six 50s concentrated at the same point... impossible, right? Now try the same firing the 50s from a buff against a P51 at d1.2... P51 dead if not evades violently.
IMO, the precission of human handled weapons mounted into a moving platform should be "poor" compared to 6x50 mounted into the wings of a P51. The recoil, vibrations, etc, etc will affect directly to human hands and arms. So, my conclusion: Buff's 50s are death rays with no doubt.
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The other day I was up on A14 and I saw a newbie in a B17 killing 3 fighters in short succession. 2 of them did a 6 aproach, one dead 6 other with lead and coming from avobe. The last one did a high 3 aproach dived under the B17 and there it exploded.
The B17 under a sea of tracers only got a fuel leak.
Needless to say I rolled my 190 towards A13 and let alone the damned Imperial Star Destroyer with his friggin turbolasers .
You call that "ballanced" lol. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Bombers dont carry MGs. They carry computer aimed, autofiring, Magic (ball turret firing thru the fuselage...) Lazers with self aiming rounds able to hit up to 1.8K and Zero-G suits for the gunners so they can aim accurately to targets 1.1K away in the middle of a 4G turn (4G turn...humm...in a 4 engined bomber...wow).
"ballanced" lol.
In spanish:
Y una mierda, Ballanced!!!!!!!!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-14-2000).]
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Eeek, do NOT up buff toughness.
As it is, I have trouble shooting down buffs with a full load of 150 20mm and 500 mg.
It's amazing how they absorb damage.
Aye, I know, I should aim for the wings, but that's pretty hard in a 109 near compression approaching from 11 o c vertical. And I must do that if I am to have any hope of not getting shot down.
In the 190, 1-3 passes shoots the buff down, if I aim reasonably.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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StSanta, man what happened to the LW guns? Ram pissed me off lastnight with the dweebc name calling again, so I upped in a g10. Haven't flown it in a long time. Spotted a B17 at about 20k, I was 28k. It took 4 crossing attacks and totally emptying the clips before he went down. I know I was hittin' him cause I was smokin' something new on each pass (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Apache
=XO= VMF-323 Death Rattlers
VMF 323 Death Rattlers Web Site (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkapache)
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Originally posted by Apache:
StSanta, man what happened to the LW guns?
That now 4 mausers have less hittin power than 6 50 cals. But well they never were very powerful anyway.
Or maybe what happens, after all, is that you are now used to Hispanos, and you see the difference between mausers and hispanos...who knows? (hint hint, toad...maybe you want to test it his way and stopping those tests in TA (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
Ram pissed me off lastnight with the dweebc name calling again
I hope that after I explained it clearly you dont feel offended. It had nothing to do with you, an awesome pilot, but with a fact that we all know. I wont say anything about it because I dont want to start a flamewar (another) here.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-14-2000).]
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lol Ram, I overlooked the obviuos here. Now I see why you dislike the Hispanos. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Yes, your explanation was understood perfectly, no war with ya here <S>.
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Apache
=XO= VMF-323 Death Rattlers
VMF 323 Death Rattlers Web Site (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkapache)
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I said it once, ill say it again. The turbolasers are, in my opinion and fact from what i've observed, the result of all possible guns firing at the same damn spot the human gunner aims.
have the non-human aimed guns to fire in a random spot in a 10 or 8 degree cone from where the human gunner is aiming. That way the non-human aimed guns will NOT be lethal at medium-long ranges (and would actually HELP the buff gunner if he misses..the other guns might hit the fighter!) but would be a challenge at close ranges. That gets rid of the "dark side of the force induced convergence" of all buff guns.
"You have failed me for the last time admiral" *neck crunches* (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Apache:
It seems buff toughness has increased, but I haven't heard anything about changing German cannons (except the 30mm, it was modified, so as to not penetrate armor).
But it is amusing; comparing C hog drivers assist rate to the assist rate of 109G10 drivers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Torque:
Kills of Fighters 340
Fighter assist 27
Kills/assists: 12.6
StSanta
Kills of Fighters 168
Fighter assist 45
Kills/assists: 3.7
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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If you have ever seen torque fly you would know y he has soo few assists. its not the guns its the pilot.
Trell
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Assists just mean you are gangbanging. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Trell:
If you have ever seen torque fly you would know y he has soo few assists. its not the guns its the pilot.
Trell
I am quite sure that the hispanos help quite a bit too... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
But I agree. Torque is a damned good pilot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Back to the buff guns if we may..
I agree.. buff guns are fine..
think how'd you be screaming if it was full "otto" comparable to the aaa on a field..
as it is,, at most you'll only ever have 3 gun positions firing at ya,, and it takes a bit of time to change from one turret to another, then the time to aquire target from same.. if they was "otto" you'd have no delay...
Before I hear the "3 gun positions??" whine.. yes.. 3 gun positions...
if you're doing a dead 6 attack, at MOST you have upper and tail or Lower and tail.. not Both upper and lower.... depends on what plane your attacking from..
(yes as you cross from above to below the other turret starts firing but they don't, (upper and lower) fire at same time).
If your coming in from the rear sides, then the 1 waist gun joins....
so at most you'll have 5 50's firing at ya..
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GreyBeard, Squadron Leader
Commander, "E" Flight, Aces High
Senior Staff Council
"The Skeleton Crew"
"Fly with Honor"[/i]
"Keepin' the Faith"
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Well, I feel almighty in a B17, especially when the normal skill pilots attack me.
I usually get 3 kills before I die. And I start firing at d1.4 and know I can hit and kill from that range.
Buffs? I don't attack those unless there are other friendlies doing the same nearby.
G10 can spend all its ammo on a buff and still not make it even smoke. "Aim for the wingtime" is the answer, but not a good one - at near compression speed (to avoid laser beams), it's pretty damned hard to hit the 17, let alone the wingtips (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
But they die. Not a big problem to me.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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sometimes this debate gets almost funny.
I've been flying a 4gun pony for the past 2 days to break a slump I've had in the 38 (and working damn well too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
Last night I dove in on a B17 from his High 2o'clock, no friendlies around, he opens up at 1.1k (my FE, prolly 1.5k his) and keep boring in. 600yds out I rock the wings a hair and nudge the rudder and rake him from nose to tail, passing maybe 10ft under the fuselage and pull up into a gentle right turn to setup for a second pass. I look back to aquire the target and see pieces falling, look to the buffer and there's the kill.
Now, if a lone, rookie, pony pilot flying an "undergunned" pony can take'em down, why can't some of you experten (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Not too long I had a sortie where I wiped out 3 17s inside of 5min, all with low frontal attacks pulling up into them and raking them nose to tail (this was after the current buff guns were set). Was flying a P38, used the 20mm on 3 fighters and the first 17, the last 2 were taken with only .50s, back to back, with a loops (zoom into first, kill it, over the top and back up into second, kill it). This sortie is the reason I wished all sorties were filmed and given the option to delete/save at the end of the sortie. I had forgotten to turn on the recorder (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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RAM's stats since the beginning of Tour 3 :
2 Kills / 1 Deaths in B17/B26
94 Kills / 24 Deaths vs. B17/B26
RAM, before you complain about turbolaser buffs you should spend more time in them.
I would take your stats against buffs any day. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Sour
JG-2 Richthofen (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/JG2inquirer.html)
"Hey - someone has to be the target...."
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/sour.jpg)
[This message has been edited by sourkraut (edited 08-23-2000).]
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said it before, and ill say it agaiun:
i have no prob with buff lethality unless they are above 25k alt. or 20k alt in the case of b26.
Show me how to kill a well flown b26 at 20k. Ask jihad to fly the b26 and see if you can kill him without dying too
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Originally posted by sourkraut:
RAM's stats since the beginning of Tour 3 :
2 Kills / 1 Deaths in B17/B26
94 Kills / 24 Deaths vs. B17/B26
RAM, before you complain about turbolaser buffs you should spend more time in them.
I would take your stats against buffs any day. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I have buffed sometimes. Last time was 2 tours ago on a long way mission to bish HQ, the last big mission I flew with JG2.
I find buffing boring. For some people might seem fun, a lot of people fly them for the score. I dont fly them because I dont like. Period. And I wont buff to prove that their gunnery is that of a turbolaser. I dont fly planes to prove anything.
(BTW one of those 2 kills was at 1.2K,and I killed one F4U1-C at 1.4K when gunning for someone ,back in v1.1 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
You want my stats on Buffs?...well then do one of these 4 things:
1-never attack a buff unless:
a) you are in cooperation with friedlies
b) you have 5-10K of alt advantage.
2-If you fail to do the thing avobe then,at least, try to do a hi 1 or 11 pass firing all your artillery. most times they will kill you but if you are lucky he will be also mortally wounded. Keep on the cockpit until he bails or dies. This way you get his kill but he doesnt get yours, and in the stats seems you are better buffer killer. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
3-Vulch ackstarring B17s on the runway before they can fire their guns. (once I killed the same guy in the same spot 8 times in a row). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
4-If you fail to do 1-2-3, fly away and let the buff go ahead. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Realistic way isnt it?
LOL!
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-23-2000).]
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Yup RAM the only reason why the stats saythat so many B17s gets killed, is that they are killed during takeoff while taking off from bases they try to defend. Listen to that guys! - B17s take off to defend their bases????
I find it very hard to understand why ppl who normally require a high standard of realism can accept this kind of arcadism the bombers represents.
Bombing in AH is moving a crosshair over a spot on the map, click the right time and you hit a 1*1 yard area from 10K, any first timer rookie can do that. Shooting fighters from a bomber is the same, - just move a crosshair on the screen, even a complete rookie right from halflife can start racking up fighter kills from the first day in main arena.
If you wanna learn accurate divebombing in a fighter (from the state of beeing a complete rookie without sim experience at all) it would take months of hard training. Even more if you wanted to kill another figher from a fighter.
Why is it so needed to make B17s and B26s so easy compared to fighters???
[This message has been edited by GrinBird (edited 08-23-2000).]
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Ballance Grinbird...ballance (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Laughable isnt it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by GrinBird:
Yup RAM the only reason why the stats saythat so many B17s gets killed, is that they are killed during takeoff while taking off from bases they try to defend. Listen to that guys! - B17s take off to defend their bases????
I find it very hard to understand why ppl who normally require a high standard of realism can accept this kind of arcadism the bombers represents.
Bombing in AH is moving a crosshair over a spot on the map, click the right time and you hit a 1*1 yard area from 10K, any first timer rookie can do that. Shooting fighters from a bomber is the same, - just move a crosshair on the screen, even a complete rookie right from halflife can start racking up fighter kills from the first day in main arena.
If you wanna learn accurate divebombing in a fighter (from the state of beeing a complete rookie without sim experience at all) it would take months of hard training. Even more if you wanted to kill another figher from a fighter.
Why is it so needed to make B17s and B26s so easy compared to fighters???
[This message has been edited by GrinBird (edited 08-23-2000).]
By the same logic, killing a fighter with a figher is easy. Just move a cross hair onto a another plane. Boom.
Wow (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
So much for lead, tracking, delflection, all that good stuff because all we are doing is manipulating an input device to move a point to a part of a plane and firing.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Yes Ram, buff pilots fly for pure score. Ayup. Their sole purpose is to piss off every luftwobble faction member they can with their turbo lazers.
Ban the buff! It serves no purpose! Ban the C-47 too! It just pads scores!
</dweeb mode>
Buff are fine to me. Until there is some way to have mass drone formations following a lead buff to carpet bomb bases with plenty of coverfire they work just fine.
Sure the guns are strong, but why the hell not? People squeak if they go over a figher's head. Weaker guns would make them damn near as vulnerable as C-47's. They die easy enough as it is. Would you rather have to shoot down a combat box of bombers? I sure as hell wouldn't but hey, "THAT'S historical!"
So...either come up with a solution better then the one we already have or STFU (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
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Jig... you dont answer my questions, and as if you were a skilled politician you avoid to attack my main point.
I know that there is skilled simpilots who fly bombers, it wasnt my meaning to step on their toes. I just want to get a simple answer to my two simple questions:
1) Why can realism-demanding simpilots accept an arcadish and non-historic modelling of the bombers? - Something they would never accept for the fighters.
2) Why is it so important to make it so easy to kill fighters from bombers, - so it isnt needed to fly in formation have escort etc?
And btw Jig.. B17s were never used for carpetbombing of airbases. They were simply not accurate enuf for that. Even a full formation on B17s wouldent hit a base hard enuf to justify the attack. Airbases were attacked by fighers and fighterbombers like Tiffies and Mosquitoes.
And the C47... why model that out of the game? The C47 in AH does the same job as it did in WW2, and its important for gameplay. It is not boosted in anyway, you cant just move a crosshair and drop the troops accurate fron high Altitude. - And the 10 troops are not firing out of peepholes and hitting everything that moves on 1.2 K´s distance.
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Originally posted by GrinBird:
Jig... you dont answer my questions, and as if you were a skilled politician you avoid to attack my main point.
I know that there is skilled simpilots who fly bombers, it wasnt my meaning to step on their toes. I just want to get a simple answer to my two simple questions:
1) Why can realism-demanding simpilots accept an arcadish and non-historic modelling of the bombers? - Something they would never accept for the fighters.
2) Why is it so important to make it so easy to kill fighters from bombers, - so it isnt needed to fly in formation have escort etc?
And btw Jig.. B17s were never used for carpetbombing of airbases. They were simply not accurate enuf for that. Even a full formation on B17s wouldent hit a base hard enuf to justify the attack. Airbases were attacked by fighers and fighterbombers like Tiffies and Mosquitoes.
And the C47... why model that out of the game? The C47 in AH does the same job as it did in WW2, and its important for gameplay. It is not boosted in anyway, you cant just move a crosshair and drop the troops accurate fron high Altitude. - And the 10 troops are not firing out of peepholes and hitting everything that moves on 1.2 K´s distance.
somebody get the net! I caught one!
Adaptation to the game silly.
Until you see full combat boxes of bombers don't expect the guns to change. It's a good compromise to fill in for historical defense.
And buff's didn't normally whack air bases because it was a futile effort. Even with direct hits a new base could be constructed in days, and given allied bomber losses to flak and fighters, quite a loss of man power for a weak target.
and incase you haven't firgured it out I was joking about the C-47 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
defending one issue of gameplay, but not another? tsk tsk.
- Jig
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Even sarcasim tags are ignored these days.
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Originally posted by GrinBird:
Jig... you dont answer my questions, and as if you were a skilled politician you avoid to attack my main point.
I know that there is skilled simpilots who fly bombers, it wasnt my meaning to step on their toes. I just want to get a simple answer to my two simple questions:
1) Why can realism-demanding simpilots accept an arcadish and non-historic modelling of the bombers? - Something they would never accept for the fighters.
2) Why is it so important to make it so easy to kill fighters from bombers, - so it isnt needed to fly in formation have escort etc?
And btw Jig.. B17s were never used for carpetbombing of airbases. They were simply not accurate enuf for that. Even a full formation on B17s wouldent hit a base hard enuf to justify the attack. Airbases were attacked by fighers and fighterbombers like Tiffies and Mosquitoes.
And the C47... why model that out of the game? The C47 in AH does the same job as it did in WW2, and its important for gameplay. It is not boosted in anyway, you cant just move a crosshair and drop the troops accurate fron high Altitude. - And the 10 troops are not firing out of peepholes and hitting everything that moves on 1.2 K´s distance.
and in response to your two questions...
1) Try and get escort in AH. Try and get more then one or two other bombers to go with you. It don't happen. And prolly never will. Compromise has to be made somewhere to make up for it. I have seen nothing arcadish about bombers within the context of the sim. When was the last time you saw several hundred B-17's in a tight combat box with escort ANYWHERE in AH? Um never. Hard to justify making anything absolutely histortical without the proper situation.
Besides the fighter pilots would squeak that much more if there was more then one or two they had to kill.
I don't think it's buff pilots wanting a non-histortical bomber system at all. I think it's just a bunch of whiney pilots who are going to squeak regardless of what happens.
and for the second question... see above.
There aren't enough people that are in AH yet to justify the parameters for an average gunner and his weapon. Real promising for a player when they spend quite a while climbing out in a bomber only to have a Fighter jock spend a few minutes climbing to them and ripping them apart.
So I stand by my original comment...it's a good compromise history and game play.
I try and fly all the planes, and have no problem killing fighters in a bomber, and no problem killing bombers in a fighter.
If you make it easy for a bomber to kill you, you will die easily. If you make a proper attack then you won't. If they are over 25k I don't even bother with them. The only thing that shows up above that alt is the HQ building. And I don't like dar anyway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Oh well.
- Jig
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I know I'm a dedicated(sp?) buff pilot, but I really don't wanna get in this post, but I will say this:
Tour 7
The B-17G has 2764 kills and has been killed 3860 times.
Kinda says it all. Then again.
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Originally posted by RAM:
I have buffed sometimes. Last time was 2 tours ago on a long way mission to bish HQ, the last big mission I flew with JG2.
So basically you haven't been in one at all since the guns were changed and toughness moved. And even back then you stayed out of them.
gunnery is that of a turbolaser. I dont fly planes to prove anything.
(BTW one of those 2 kills was at 1.2K,and I killed one F4U1-C at 1.4K when gunning for someone ,back in v1.1 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
1.1 is not now. now is now. And I buff allot. and I NEVER get kills past 1.2k. And those are idiots trying to run right up my bellybutton I have been plastering since 1.5.
1-never attack a buff unless:
a) you are in cooperation with friedlies
b) you have 5-10K of alt advantage.
WOO HOO.
Damn it ram- you just repeated the EXACT tactics the luftwaffe had in WWII. A lone high buff wasn't in much danger only a low one. And fighters still went 3-5k above it to attack.
Buffs ARE fine damn it. I fly the B-26 every night at least 2 or 3 sorties. To kill an attacker requires allot of bullets as the attack HO and it takes a whack of .50 cal to kill that way. To dissuade takes almost as much as most people are SUICIDAL attacking buffs. if you hear ping pang at 1.2k WHY THE HELL ARE YOU BARRELLING IN?????
In RL no moron would do that like AH does, darwin would have him by the balls.
I sincerely suggest RAM- that you take some serious amounts of buff runs in the MA before accusing them of having turbolasers or being out of skew. because it just is not so.