Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Getback on December 18, 2008, 02:22:06 PM
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Basically a cannon is defined as being 15 mm or larger. My question is are the cannon rounds packed with a charge?
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Yes.
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Actually that's incorrect. The 20mm M-61A1 on the F4 was considered a cannon,
yet we had TP <Target Piercing> rounds that were solid slugs. Alot cheaper that API
I would imagine.
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Actually that's incorrect. The 20mm M-61A1 on the F4 was considered a cannon,
yet we had TP <Target Piercing> rounds that were solid slugs. Alot cheaper that API
I would imagine.
Well, I didn't say all cannon rounds have a HE charge. ;)
But most in AH do :)
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It really depends on the round....
Many armor piercing rounds are solid slugs and some (mostly modern) have an explosive component. In WW2 I dont know if they used mixed belt feeds in the cannons. If they did some of the rounds would be solid armor piercing or API. The high explosive, incendiary and tracer rounds had charges of varied composition.
In short it depends on what cannon and even what mix of ammo they were running.
Steel
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Good question..
Cannon is an interesting word..
Cannons, fire solid or explosive projectiles.. Most AP is
just a solid.. Some are composite bimetal with a hardened
penetrator tip... Others are just plain induction hardened
steel, with copper driving bands..
Heck, there are some handguns that would qualify by the
15mm definition... British Howdah for example, (for tiger hunting), LOL...
In (renaissance<spelling?) days, a cannon was just one of
many types of large powder fueled projectile weapons..
They had all kinds of names, caronade, carabusque, etc..
LOTS of names, apparently they were descriptive of the
weapon in some way, or in its usage..
Gun, Howitzer, Mortar.. are a few that survived thru the
ages.. Anybody know any others...
RC
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Some are just depleted uranium
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Basically a cannon is defined as being 15 mm or larger. My question is are the cannon rounds packed with a charge?
Where did you hear this definition of a cannon being anything larger than 15mm? I don't think that is the case, even in game we have 20mm machine guns on the 190s for example.
What does define a cannon? I've read about machine guns that fire mixed rounds including armor piercing, anti personal, and high explosive. I always assumed a cannon was defined as by a gun that can shoot something other than solid slugs, but I guess this is not the case. How do you differ between a 20mm machine gun firing high explosive rounds and 20mm cannon firing the same?
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I believe for the type of weapon being discussed the correct term would be Autocannon, though just "Cannon" is fine so long as everyone is on the same page that it's the modern version being disucssed, and not from centuries ago :)
Weapons author and historian Tony William's definition (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Glossary.html) is:
cannon (modern) a large-calibre fast-firing automatic weapon, generally taken to be between 20mm and around 57mm calibre
Wikipedia says this regarding machine guns/autocannon calibre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_gun#Caliber_overview)
Machine guns are generally categorized as submachine guns, machine guns, or autocannons. The distinction between submachine guns and machine guns is subtle, hinging upon whether the ammunition used is intended for use in pistols (chiefly semi-automatic pistols) or rifles; the difference between machine guns and autocannons is based on caliber, with autocannons using calibers larger than 15 mm.[2]
Another factor is whether the gun fires conventional rounds or explosive rounds. Guns firing large-caliber explosive rounds are generally considered either autocannons or automatic grenade launchers ("grenade machine guns"). By contrast to the other two categories (submachine guns and autocannons), machine guns (like rifles) tend to share a very high ratio of barrel length to caliber (a long barrel for a small caliber); indeed, a true machine gun is essentially a fully-automatic rifle, and the boundaries between the two are often blurred. Often, the criterion for a machine gun as opposed to an automatic rifle is considered to be the presence of a quick change barrel or other cooling system.
[2]*Source ^ Marchant-Smith, C.J., & Haslam, P.R., Small Arms & Cannons, Brassey's Battlefield Weapons Systems & Technology, Volume V, Brassey's Publishers, London, 1982, p.169,
Regarding the Autocannon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocannon) it says
An autocannon is a rapid fire projectile weapon. Autocannon often have a larger caliber than a machine gun (i.e., usually 20mm or greater), but there is no maximum or minimum caliber that makes a weapon an autocannon. Usually, autocannons are smaller than a field gun or other artillery. They have mechanisms to automatically load the ammunition and have a faster rate of fire than artillery.
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Where did you hear this definition of a cannon being anything larger than 15mm? I don't think that is the case, even in game we have 20mm machine guns on the 190s for example.
The 20mms with the MG (Maschinengewehr) prefix are considered cannons.
Lushe, maybe you could confirm the way I understand this? Which is that the MK (Maschinenkanone) designation was initially to distinguish an automatic weapon that fires explosive rounds. Also initially, that the process for manufacturing explosive rounds smaller than 30mm had not been perfected. Hence some smaller weapons retained the MG designation. Was that the case?
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The 20mms with the MG (Maschinengewehr) prefix are considered cannons.
Lushe, maybe you could confirm the way I understand this? Which is that the MK (Maschinenkanone) designation was initially to distinguish an automatic weapon that fires explosive rounds. Also initially, that the process for manufacturing explosive rounds smaller than 30mm had not been perfected. Hence some smaller weapons retained the MG designation. Was that the case?
This would be a perfect question for Mr Tony Williams, I suppose ;)
Myself, I have no idea. I remember the first German 20mm's that were designed during WWI were designated cannons, the Erhard FlzK (=Flugzeugkanone) comes to my mind. And the latewar MG-213 was developed both in 20mm as well as 30mm versions, both retained the MG designation. I have some books & stuff about GErman aircraft armament but I can't remember having read anything about why things they were named in a certain way, or if they were any official "rules".
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I think I saw on the history channel where they said it was 15mm or larger. It kind of threw me since I noticed the smallest cannon rounds we have in AH are 20mm.
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i think 50 cal can be packed with something
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So after some research and lots of reading I've come to the conclusion that there is no real distinction between a modern auto cannon and a machine gun. The best I can find are some sources saying generally anything over 15 or 20mm is an auto cannon, however this is not set in stone.
There are machine guns with larger caliber, there are machine guns that fire exploding rounds, both are things that I thought would designate a cannon. I guess, from what I'm reading, in modern warfare there really is no solid difference between an auto cannon and machine gun.
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I think I saw on the history channel where they said it was 15mm or larger. It kind of threw me since I noticed the smallest cannon rounds we have in AH are 20mm.
Found this, doesn't help much.
"The term cannon was used during World War II to describe guns used in aircraft, where the distinction was that the shells were explosive, as opposed to the solid shot used in machine gun bullets. Solid-shot projectiles are used by machine guns and other small arms for calibers up to 15mm. At 20mm caliber, explosive shells are large enough to produce a significant amount of effective fragmentation, e.g., fragments of a suitable size and velocity to either incapacitate or kill a human."
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Nothing but these to add really : )
(http://z.about.com/d/goeasteurope/1/0/N/1/-/-/TsarCannon.jpg)
(http://colossal-squid.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/cannon11707142e-f2ad-46f8-9631-d5b0323e8fd3large.jpg)
(http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-7/767317/M1841CANNON34STRNLRG005.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.landandseacollection.com/id270.html&usg=__CSBXLtR7rKI4Kptcvhyhh-OZMac=&h=498&w=650&sz=17&hl=en&start=14&um=1&tbnid=da83LT4-DZNwLM:&tbnh=105&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcannon%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN)
(http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/nlos-cannon-2.jpg)
(http://www.crazyabouttv.com/ImagesTwo/cannon.jpg)
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You bet your sweety bippy they are.
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Atom if you do some researching you'll find not many 12mm/.50 cal bullets had much of anything in them other than tracers, although some were made to be Armor Piercing Incendiary. So that if they hit a enemy fuel tank they had a higher chance of starting it on fire.
I do not know of any standard .50 cal mg round that was packed with an explosive charge.
Not enough room to work with, and too unstable for field conditions. Not to mention not enough room for fusing, ignition etc.
A self igniting API round, is much simpler, can be as simple as a Armor piercing bullet, with a hollow in the back containting a slow burning fuse, or White Phosphorus.
Totally different from an exploding 20mm round.
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.50's , much different from a cannon. cannon , goes "boom"... .50 just slash's thru.