Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: 1pLUs44 on December 24, 2008, 05:55:38 PM
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Just curious, why is the F4U-4 perked? I know it's a good plane, but it's good at higher altitudes.
For MA enviroments (deck to 15k) IIRC, it's outperformed by many other non-perk planes in speed and climb. 190D, 109K4, P-51D, La-7 (I've been caught on the deck many a time by an La-7 in my F4U4 only to die).
I do like the F4U4, just don't honestly see a need for it to be perked in the MAs.
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Flown right, the F4u4 is the best plane in the game
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Y'know, this subject comes up every bit as often as complaints about the flaps....
To start, take all the good points of the other F4Us (excluding the cannon of the Charlie) and tack on about an extra 500HP, a four-bladed paddle prop and I believe a little bit less weight (especially as compared to the 1 and 1A, which carry two extra fuel tanks).
The fighters you mention may be able to run on or extend in a sustained climb on the deck, however with the exception of a VERY well-flown La-7 the F4U-4 will hand all of them their tulips in a close-quarters fight, and this is at all altitudes (assuming equal pilots). The F4U-4 will also zoom on each one of them except for MAYBE the K-4 if she's Co-E or better (equal E-states the 4-Hog will catch or lose the Dora, Pony and La-7 in the Zoom). Acceleration is vastly improved over the 1-series Hogs, as is level climb. Combine this with the fact that Corsairs already have among the best E-retention in the game. Rate of roll is superior to all with the possible exception of the Dora, and unlike the Dora and K-4 the F4U maintains almost total control at nearly all speeds until you begin to exceed 550 TAS (the German Iron starts to suffer control stiffness, especially elevator authority, well before then). Then of course there's der Uberflappen which really goes without saying.
The only flaw the 4-Hog has is range on internal fuel, but she doesn't suffer a drag penalty once you cut the DTs loose since the pylons are fixed so taking them along hardly needs a second thought.
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Actually the F4U4 is the 3rd fastest prop plane plane at sea level, only 2mph slower than the La-7 and 10mph slower than the Tempest. It beats the D9 by 2, the Typhoon by 8 and the 109K by 11 mph. With full flaps it can outturn even a La-7, but it has longer range with 2 DTS. Add to that a premium weapons package with ample ammo, very rugged, superb dive performance, very good zoom climb...
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And CV capable.
I think your question is pertinent to the Spitfire Mk XIV, which is a bit faster than earlier Spitfires but has horribly worse handling, but the F4U-4 has all the virtues of the earlier F4Us and more.
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And it's blue. :aok
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And has gull-wings.
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Its a monster. I had one at 20,000' the other day, purring along, sounding like my old Chrysler with the 440 big block at 100 mph on a road trip. No matter what its up against there is some way to fly the thing and beat the con.
This is a GREAT fighter plane!
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And it hauls ord.
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The La-7 should be no problem for the F4U-4 1v1, although I do realize standard procedure is for the La to catch and turn whatever is extending so the rest of the horde can descend on it.
Your argument is a good one for perking the La7 lightly, 3-5 points, not for unperking the all-around best plane in the game.
Just curious, why is the F4U-4 perked? I know it's a good plane, but it's good at higher altitudes.
For MA enviroments (deck to 15k) IIRC, it's outperformed by many other non-perk planes in speed and climb. 190D, 109K4, P-51D, La-7 (I've been caught on the deck many a time by an La-7 in my F4U4 only to die).
I do like the F4U4, just don't honestly see a need for it to be perked in the MAs.
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Please understand, I love the F4Us almost as much as the P39, but I just don't see any competition perking it. I'll fly it a good bit see how good I do in it with MA standards. Maybe I'll have a different opinion when I come back.
:salute
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Turns good, amazing in a dive, will out-run a pony and out-climb a 38
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The La-7 should be no problem for the F4U-4 1v1, although I do realize standard procedure is for the La to catch and turn whatever is extending so the rest of the horde can descend on it.
Hahah! that's so true :rofl
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Please understand, I love the F4Us almost as much as the P39, but I just don't see any competition perking it. I'll fly it a good bit see how good I do in it with MA standards. Maybe I'll have a different opinion when I come back.
:salute
It's the best prop plane in the game, hands down. :confused:
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My experience with the F4U-4 tells me it is the best all-around fighter in the game.
453 mph @ 26k... 377 mph on the deck. Very good climb, stellar maneuverability throughout the speed range.
In a duel between a Tempest and an F4U-4, the Tempest can't win (given equal pilots). The La-7 is a tougher nut (yeah, the La-7 beats the Tempest as well). Urchin and I flew a series of duels comparing the F4U-4 to the La-7. On the deck, it's just about equal, with the Corsair gaining a very small edge if the La-7 pilot allows the fight to get too slow. Above 8k the La-7 is clearly outclassed. As good as the 109K-4 is, it's overmatched against the F4U-4. You would be better off in a 109G-2. P-51s are lunch meat for the F4U-4.
I've also flown a series of duels with one of the game's better pilots; FM-2 Vs F4U-4. Strictly a low-speed fight. F4U-4 wins that too. Didn't matter who flew what.
If I want the odds stacked in my favor no matter what the competition is, I'll take the F4U-4.
If it weren't perked, seeing another F4U type would be a rare occurrence.
Merry Christmas All!
Widewing
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If it weren't perked, seeing another F4U type would be a rare occurrence.
you meant to say "wouldn't be a rare occurrence" right?
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He's saying that if the F4U-4 wasn't perked seeing an F4U OTHER than the -4 would be a rare occurrence.
And that's a really key part of the argument. The Corsair is only used regularly by a relatively small percentage of the arena population. Now imagine that EVERY F4U that you ran into was the -4.
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you meant to say "wouldn't be a rare occurrence" right?
I'll rephrase for clarity. If the F4U-4 were not perked, it would be rare to encounter any other type of F4U. F4U-4s would be everywhere.
Merry Christmas All!
My regards,
Widewing
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Nice post widewing. I disagree about F4Us being a low percentage of planes flown Sax. They're quite popular. They dive well, easy to turn fight with, can take a beating, and the forward view is the best in the game in my opinion. I flew it alot to get my gunnery down
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Buster,
This is comparatively speaking. She's more widely used than some planes in the stable for sure, but away from CV battles you don't see her nearly as often. Plane for plane, I see far more P-38s, 51s and 47s, Spits, La's, Hurricanes or N1K2s inland than I do F4Us (unless my whole squad is up) and frequently these seem to be D-Hog bomb trucks. But when I DO see an F4U I generally expect to be in for a tougher fight, because the guys who fly them away from the CVs are far more likely to be experienced sticks (granted there's exceptions).
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Yeah well that makes sense. I think the reason you see so many 47s and 38s is because they're used for porking alot. I will agree generally when I see a Corsair away from the ocean I'm in for a good fight
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P38s are on a recent upswing in popularity, not because the older sticks are back but because we have alot of new SAPPers sign up. With the exception of one guy, I haven't seen any carry ords either.
In truth, the F4U is a great ride with lots of options and complete versatility within AH, I just wish the low speed handling was a little more realistic.
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I have not flown the -u4 often, I figured it was basically the same as the rest, the way you guys are talking about it, makes me want to fly the friggin thing :rofl
I cant hit crap in anything but the hurri, and even then its very questionable if I am gonna hit, at least with the hurri when I do hit its devastating, every other plane I have flown I have a very hard time hitting, so I have been sticking to the Hurri, but I hate the speed factor, as soon as they realize they are gonna die they dive away, and fights over, until they come back and pick me while I am fighting someone else :furious
maybe I will take it out more often. and see for myself if its the "best fighter" in AH, as some of you are claiming.
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She's a MONSTER of an energy fighter. All the F4Us have very high E-retention if flown properly--among the best of any single-engine aircraft in the game--and the -4 adds excellent acceleration at all speeds and a good rate of climb, with a Zoom nearly second to none.
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I'm a lazy bum who hasn't learnt much in 10 years of online cartoon air wars.
The only 5vs1 I've won was in an F4U-4.
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I'm a lazy bum who hasn't learnt much in 10 years of online cartoon air wars.
The only 5vs1 I've won was in an F4U-4.
done that in my Hurri, the most I survived was about 10 trying to kill me, I walked away with 7 killz. while in my hurri :D
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See Rule #14
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Yeah, internal fuel range in the -4 isn't great, and I would definitely say it's the only real flaw she has. But I feel the same about the D and C-Hogs as well. Any time I take up a Hog without the wing tanks I always end up missing them (shorter sorties, or those dammed magic bullets that STILL manage to find their way through the armored bulkhead, pilot's station, (WITHOUT causing a P/W) and front console from Dead Six position to hole the gas tank. :furious
The F4U-4 IMO is best utilized either as an interceptor (especially in fleet defense, as she's about the best climber you can spawn from the CV) or as general air-superiority/escort (range is pretty good on DTs and if you utilize cruise). Leave the bomb truck duty to the 1D and Charlie. They're cheaper, too, so you're not throwing your perks away in the ack. :D
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See Rule #5
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I've used the -4 to chase down pacerr's tempest when he was vultching a few times.
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I just wish it entered service earlier to make a huge impact... would've really blown the japanese away!
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I love the F4U's, and fly them a lot, but the -4 is a different animal. You can almost forget the limitations that you learned flying the earlier F4u's, becouse the -4 has addressed them. I think it has earned it's perk rating.
:salute
BigRat
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I'm not a big F4U fan but even I think the F4U-4 is the best plane in the game. It really does have it all.
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I dont know, I took it up got 4 killz, but I had the advantage of ALT(not numbers), IT like every other plane, I have a difficult time hitting. so you wont see me in one often.
I still have no concern of them while in my Hurri. :D
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I dont know, I took it up got 4 killz, but I had the advantage of ALT(not numbers), IT like every other plane, I have a difficult time hitting. so you wont see me in one often.
I still have no concern of them while in my Hurri. :D
The problem you are having is .... speed. Everything happens faster in just about every other AC. That is your problem. With AC like the hurri/A6M series everything is slowed down . I'm betting most of the ac you are shooting are slowing to turn fight with you. Once slowed shots are easier to line up and you get in closer.
When you get into a fight with someone who knows what they are doing this is what happens (correct me if I am wrong).
They start going up, staying just out of reach. Slowly, you have less and less E to chase them up with. Eventually you end up on the deck unable to dive to recover any E. Then you no longer can loop and start mushing through the turns. That's when ya get popped.
This is not a hit on you ink, just an observation of what I have experienced playing ... both sides of the above. IMHO take some lumps and learn the faster AC. Doing this can only help both your offensive and defensive tactics.
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I agree with Bronk's analysis. Shot opportunities in the F4U are generally short and come up on you quick since she's best flown more open and at higher speeds (250+ TAS. Any slower than that I find makes you too vulnerable in anything other than a 1v1 situation. Even then I prefer to keep her faster). The Hurricane's slow speed and maneuverability really promotes saddling up for tracking shots, especially in the Hurri I with her .303s. In the F4U you often don't have that luxury, which means a LOT of snapshots. I'd probably say about 70-80% of the shot opportunities I get against maneuvering targets in the F4U are shots from the hip, often at poor deflection angles. I rarely have sustained tracking shots unless it's a pursuit situation (bad guy running, saddled on a friendly con, or just doesn't see me coming) or I'm in a one-on-one engagement where I have the luxury of getting slow enough to create one.
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The problem you are having is .... speed. Everything happens faster in just about every other AC. That is your problem. With AC like the hurri/A6M series everything is slowed down . I'm betting most of the ac you are shooting are slowing to turn fight with you. Once slowed shots are easier to line up and you get in closer.
When you get into a fight with someone who knows what they are doing this is what happens (correct me if I am wrong).
They start going up, staying just out of reach. Slowly, you have less and less E to chase them up with. Eventually you end up on the deck unable to dive to recover any E. Then you no longer can loop and start mushing through the turns. That's when ya get popped.
This is not a hit on you ink, just an observation of what I have experienced playing ... both sides of the above. IMHO take some lumps and learn the faster AC. Doing this can only help both your offensive and defensive tactics.
what you describe actually does not happen,especially when its 1vs1
I will only follow someone up if I have the E, Usually what happens when I face someone in those type planes they get frustrated, because they cant hit me, I have learned to avoid there shots, and hold my E as best as possible, and eventually they will give up a shot to me, now when I am against someone who really knows there ride, it will end allot of times as a stale mate, unless they are very good shots, and the way I fly to set up that rear shot I will give up a gun solution to them, but only rarely do I get hit, if they do hit me I know they are a good shot, I have had many, many, AHers PM me about the things I do in my Hurri, how "there is no way the hurri could do that..." and such like that. seriously I have been a TnB fighter since I came to Aces High, it is what I enjoy the most, the faster planes just dont, have the same ability as the hurri,in this aspect.
I have flown every "fighter" in game and gotten killz in them all, but the turning ability,and power of the cannons keep me coming back to the Hurri, and the fact that I can actually hit in it. makes me stay.
this screen shot is from last night, as you can see in it there are four cons on my 6, they all died, they only way I was able to do that was because of the hurri.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/MWSnap086.jpg)
and I was wrong I did not get 4 killz in the -u4 it was 3 :(
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what you describe actually does not happen,especially when its 1vs1
I will only follow someone up if I have the E, Usually what happens when I face someone in those type planes they get frustrated, because they cant hit me, I have learned to avoid there shots, and hold my E as best as possible, and eventually they will give up a shot to me, now when I am against someone who really knows there ride, it will end allot of times as a stale mate, unless they are very good shots, and the way I fly to set up that rear shot I will give up a gun solution to them, but only rarely do I get hit, if they do hit me I know they are a good shot, I have had many, many, AHers PM me about the things I do in my Hurri, how "there is no way the hurri could do that..." and such like that. seriously I have been a TnB fighter since I came to Aces High, it is what I enjoy the most, the faster planes just dont, have the same ability as the hurri,in this aspect.
I have flown every "fighter" in game and gotten killz in them all, but the turning ability,and power of the cannons keep me coming back to the Hurri, and the fact that I can actually hit in it. makes me stay.
this screen shot is from last night, as you can see in it there are four cons on my 6, they all died, they only way I was able to do that was because of the hurri. and I was wrong I did not get 4 killz in the -u4 it was 3 :(
I think that the point people have been alluding to is that the Hurricane is an easy fighter to defeat. Very easy if you have a significant advantage in E at the outset. Noobs and low-skill players will demonstrate their ignorance by attempting to maneuver with the Hurricane at low speed. That's a sucker's game. Why fight the way the Hurricane fights best? Instead, use your speed to get above the Hurri. Break down the Hurricane's E until all it's on the deck with no E remaining and all he can do is level turn to evade. At that point, it's over.
BnZ and I did a little exercise at his request. BnZ is a pretty good stick, so keep that in mind. He was flying a Hurricane IIC and I had a 190A-5. He wanted to practice evading a faster, higher fighter. I set up and rolled in. I was able to get guns on the Hurricane just about every time. Yet, he was unable to counter - for two reasons. One, I wouldn't allow him enough E to maneuver vertically. Two, I always pulled off on a reciprocal heading (relative to the Hurricane). It wasn't as if BnZ was doing anything incorrectly. He simply didn't have any options once he was out of E. When you are out of E, your aspect changes very little when you evade. The loss of all ability to significantly change relative aspect is what gets you dead. If you don't evade smartly, you'll be dead. Yet, every time you reef it around hard, you burn off air speed. Sooner or later, you'll be too slow to prevent the inevitable.
I'm no stranger to the Hurricane. I've landed as many as 18 kills, all air to air on two rearms.
Stop by the TA any week day evening and I''l be happy to demonstrate the above. Not to prove anything beyond what most should already know. Speed defeats low-speed maneuverability every time. If it didn't, the Hurricane would have remained a front line fighter beyond 1941 rather than fade into its overdue obsolescence.
My regards,
Widewing
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One key to what WW is saying is how far the faster plane extends. If he goes out 5-6k before coming back he's just giving you time to regain your lost E, which lets you drag the fight out into a stalemate. The guys you gotta watch out for are the ones who only extend out about 2-3k (ESPECIALLY vertical separation) to reset and reverse in as soon as they're in position. They'll wear you down quick, and no matter how well you can ride the stall they're gonna get you barring a serious mistake on their part.
From what you've described it sounds like you're accustomed to dealing with the former sort.
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I liked Widewing's key point there. He basically said 'Don't fight your enemy's fight"
I get a kick out of the guys that will be flying Hurris (or other "easymode" turning planes) and get mad when I E fight them in my 38. They should stop and think about what they're flying :lol Suicide to turn with a Hurri
Edit: Thought this was about the -4 :rolleyes:
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In my highest kill sortie I had in a Ki-84 I killed a Hurricane Mk IIc using the tactics Widewing described after I ran out of cannon ammo, easily. The Hurri was helpless before the Ki-84.
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I liked Widewing's key point there. He basically said 'Don't fight your enemy's fight"
I get a kick out of the guys that will be flying Hurris (or other "easymode" turning planes) and get mad when I E fight them in my 38. They should stop and think about what they're flying :lol Suicide to turn with a Hurri
Edit: Thought this was about the -4 :rolleyes:
I never get mad when people dont try to turn fight my hurri or fight my fight, heck if they do they DIE, and if someone can kill me when im in my hurri with the same ALT, he deserves my respect, However he did it, I know what I can do in the Hurri, and 99% of 1vs1 I will win, even if they try the tactics with which WW descibes, they have to get to my level to kill me, and when they do that, well I also have the oppertunity to kill them.
I think that the point people have been alluding to is that the Hurricane is an easy fighter to defeat. Very easy if you have a significant advantage in E at the outset. Noobs and low-skill players will demonstrate their ignorance by attempting to maneuver with the Hurricane at low speed. That's a sucker's game. Why fight the way the Hurricane fights best? Instead, use your speed to get above the Hurri. Break down the Hurricane's E until all it's on the deck with no E remaining and all he can do is level turn to evade. At that point, it's over.
BnZ and I did a little exercise at his request. BnZ is a pretty good stick, so keep that in mind. He was flying a Hurricane IIC and I had a 190A-5. He wanted to practice evading a faster, higher fighter. I set up and rolled in. I was able to get guns on the Hurricane just about every time. Yet, he was unable to counter - for two reasons. One, I wouldn't allow him enough E to maneuver vertically. Two, I always pulled off on a reciprocal heading (relative to the Hurricane). It wasn't as if BnZ was doing anything incorrectly. He simply didn't have any options once he was out of E. When you are out of E, your aspect changes very little when you evade. The loss of all ability to significantly change relative aspect is what gets you dead. If you don't evade smartly, you'll be dead. Yet, every time you reef it around hard, you burn off air speed. Sooner or later, you'll be too slow to prevent the inevitable.
I'm no stranger to the Hurricane. I've landed as many as 18 kills, all air to air on two rearms.
Stop by the TA any week day evening and I''l be happy to demonstrate the above. Not to prove anything beyond what most should already know. Speed defeats low-speed maneuverability every time. If it didn't, the Hurricane would have remained a front line fighter beyond 1941 rather than fade into its overdue obsolescence.
My regards,
Widewing
WIDEWING I have been looking forward to duking it out with ya, I love testing my Hurri against better planes, and when the stick that drives them is AWESOME it makes for that much better of a fight.
Also any plane is easy to defeat when you have a "significant advantage in E".
YES I know speed defeats a low speed maneuverability,in TRW, but in AH its a -game- about fighting and 99% of fights turn into a TnB fight. and the ones that fly those fast planes usually just end up running away from me, when they relize I am to hard to hit and if they keep trying they will die.
to prove my point
so far this month I have 40 killz against the 51d, when they only killed me 5 times.
not one of my killz are Vulches, or a bunch of friendlies on one con, because if one friendly is on a con I do not engage unless the friendly calls for help.
anyways this was sapposed to be about the f4, <S> sorry
WW, I will look for ya in TA.
JETSOM
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Ink, if the faster plane is aggressive then it really does work. In my Ki-84 vs Hurri IIc fight I never got more than 1500-2000 yards from the Hurri. He was helpless.
If the faster plane is one of the "extend" to 5000 or 6000 yard weenies, then no, it doesn't work.
The same rules work here as in reality. E can be bled off just the same.
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Actually Widewing, what I more wanted to see was how to shoot down a much better turning fighter with E tactics. The answer was: Be a heck of alot better at odd-angle snapshots than I am. :D What can I say, life is hard when you got to fly right up their tailpipe to get 'em.
But anyway, I suppose THAT is the reason why for some players shooting down an old kite with a late-war brick is a cakewalk and some of us would rather fight a P-51D any day of the week.
HurriC does always have ONE option. It pretty much sucks, but it's there. Keep E, and turn to face them and shoot every time the other fighter approaches. I consider that unproductive, but I've run into a lot of HurriIIc drivers who will start doing that on you, saves headaches to just go find someone else to pick on.
Frankly, in real-world terms I think speed defeated turn radius not so much because it is easy to win something like a 190 vs. Hurri dogfight, but because most kills were the product of seeing first and approaching unseen, and the typical "energy fighter" tactic in use was that very same "one pass, haul ass" we've been prevaricating against. You can't shoot what you can't catch, and you can't keep a perfect lookout against large numbers of faster fighters which might be able to go from barely visible to firing range very quickly.
I think that the point people have been alluding to is that the Hurricane is an easy fighter to defeat. Very easy if you have a significant advantage in E at the outset. Noobs and low-skill players will demonstrate their ignorance by attempting to maneuver with the Hurricane at low speed. That's a sucker's game. Why fight the way the Hurricane fights best? Instead, use your speed to get above the Hurri. Break down the Hurricane's E until all it's on the deck with no E remaining and all he can do is level turn to evade. At that point, it's over.
BnZ and I did a little exercise at his request. BnZ is a pretty good stick, so keep that in mind. He was flying a Hurricane IIC and I had a 190A-5. He wanted to practice evading a faster, higher fighter. I set up and rolled in. I was able to get guns on the Hurricane just about every time. Yet, he was unable to counter - for two reasons. One, I wouldn't allow him enough E to maneuver vertically. Two, I always pulled off on a reciprocal heading (relative to the Hurricane). It wasn't as if BnZ was doing anything incorrectly. He simply didn't have any options once he was out of E. When you are out of E, your aspect changes very little when you evade. The loss of all ability to significantly change relative aspect is what gets you dead. If you don't evade smartly, you'll be dead. Yet, every time you reef it around hard, you burn off air speed. Sooner or later, you'll be too slow to prevent the inevitable.
I'm no stranger to the Hurricane. I've landed as many as 18 kills, all air to air on two rearms.
Stop by the TA any week day evening and I''l be happy to demonstrate the above. Not to prove anything beyond what most should already know. Speed defeats low-speed maneuverability every time. If it didn't, the Hurricane would have remained a front line fighter beyond 1941 rather than fade into its overdue obsolescence.
My regards,
Widewing
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See Rule #14
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Wait until you can corner a Pony solo. The -4 will carve the 51 up in close.
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I'll be right back to reply more in depth... gotta go call Obama again... ;) **flushes toilet**
I don't give a damn which side you are insulting. It is crap that doesn't belong here. I reported you for it.
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Frankly, in real-world terms I think speed defeated turn radius not so much because it is easy to win something like a 190 vs. Hurri dogfight, but because most kills were the product of seeing first and approaching unseen, and the typical "energy fighter" tactic in use was that very same "one pass, haul ass" we've been prevaricating against. You can't shoot what you can't catch, and you can't keep a perfect lookout against large numbers of faster fighters which might be able to go from barely visible to firing range very quickly.
I think such tactics were also much more productive in the war because of numbers. Flying alone was a rare thing (though it did happen) and we can see that 99% of fights between groups of planes happen with each group having differing altitudes. Once you have the altitude, you don't want to lose it for the world. Therefore, pilots would often keep up high instead of turning... and even IF they could easily outturn the enemy fighter, chances are they'd have another a/c on their tails.
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I am by no means an expert but I have been around for a while now. The -4 gives you the option of choosing your fight, it can out vert a 38, turn inside a niki, it accelerates like a bat and though the 50s are not hispano's, they will carve a bird up and serve it for you nice and hot. It is truly an amazing aircraft IMHO.