Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: WarTooth on December 25, 2008, 08:27:03 AM
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Hello,
For you P47 pilots having tried just using the 6 x 50 cals rather than the 8. Have you found any noticeable difference in maneuverability when using the 6 x 50s with minimal ammo load vs 8 50s?
Thanks,
WT
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You are only talking a 300 hundred or so pounds between the two gun packs with same ammo load. Quite often your fuel balance will exceed 4-5 times that difference. In terms of percentage its only around 2%, hardly a show stopper. Being comfortable with your gun package is more important than a few hundred pounds. If you go from 8 (big ammo package) to 6 (small ammo package) its only 700 pounds. Thats only about a 5% performance gain but youll certainly notice it. Will it effect the outcome of the fight....doubtfully unless your very evenly matched.
Edit: Rough estimates based on D11
<S>
Steel
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you should take less fuel you rarely need 100% on any of the 47 exept the d-11
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A Jug with less than 8 .50s is like a hamburger without the beef.
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I always take 100% fuel and the biggest gun pack in the jug. The jug, really, is by no means a suitible dogfighter in the MA, so I'm patient with it, show discretion, and keep my alt, which makes 100% fuel a must IMO. I suggest 8 guns, tried the jug with both and didn't notice much of a difference. Whereas the fights are generally below 10K in the MA, take the 8 guns, and fly the jug like a brick
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jug with 6 guns is an F6 with a couple eggs underneath
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>> jug with 6 guns is an F6 with a couple eggs underneath
Except no bubble canopy. Never loosing site of your enemy can be useful. ;-)
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I can see em ok in jug (excluding D11)...figuring out what to DO with them is something else
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jug with 6 guns is an F6 with a couple eggs underneath
No way, Jug can't turn nearly as well
I love the jug, it's probably my second most-flown plane in the MA after the 38. It's a great high alt fighter, but high alt fights don't take place in the MA. Until they do, It will stay a BnZer which it thrives at.
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B4Buster,
Look for some films of Yucca in a jug. You'll change your mind about a jug's dogfighting ability. He could do a defensive roll ending in a gun solution that was deadly.
It got to where that if I knew he was online, jugs got a free pass, so I could live on.
I haven't seen him in awhile. I think he had some squaddies just as talented. It was really not a good idea to press the fight against them.
Blukitty employed similar dogfighting tactics mostly in hogs but also jugs. Those films would be helpful, too.
HONK!
Gooss
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Yes that's not hard, in the MAs, a simple rolling scissor will cause the other peroson to overshoot, giving you solution. O upped a jug yesterday, 2 ponys and a lala were chasing me. I was pulling away from the ponys, but the lala caught up causing me to turn. One rolling scissor got the lala to overshoot, and I sawed his wing right off on the snapshot. It's not impossible, but the jug against a decent stick in an F6 for example won't win.
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Every variant of the Jug will turn somewhat better than the P-51 does with flaps usage. In-game of course, not in reality. ;)
DokGonzo's shows the P-47D-11 turning a smaller circle than the P-51B AND P-38J, both with no flaps and full flaps. :confused: I'll admit this fact is kind of counter-intuitive and wacky, the P-38 should really, really be able to out-turn a Jug with it's Fowler flaps deployed, and the P-51B should turn better in either configuration....but I digress. The point is a light P-47 is better in a turn fight than anyone gives credit for, *if* it comes down to that.
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Yeah, key word is with the flaps. At high speed a jug and pony will out turn anything (due to their high speed flaps) When you have flaps down, though, you won't be going very fast for long. The only time a 51 makes me nervous in my 38 is on the first two turns, because they can deploy flaps sooner. After that they (51 and 47) become bricks.
I don't agree with that turning chart, but I didn't actually fly in WW2, and more of the plane modeling I know is that of HTC's
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At high speed a jug and pony will out turn anything (due to their high speed flaps)
I keep hearing that. I don't know why. If you are above both aircraft's cornering speed, then both of you are limited by Gs unless one of you is limited by control authority. They won't "out-turn" anything above ~270mph they'll turn "about as well" because all our pilots can stand the same amount of G. The only help maneuvering flaps are above corner speed is as an aid to deceleration in the turn, you don't need the extra lift. Speed brakes would serve this function even better...
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Ok, on an initial merge doing somewhere from 340-400. On a first engagement of a sortie I've found I'm in those seed ranges for the most part, a little out of the 38's flap range, but still in either a jug or pony's
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Historically, I can tell you that it was standard practice in the 325th FG to strip 2 of the 50's for better climb rate and a little more maneuverability. It's funny this came up since I was just reading it in one of the books that I got on the 325th for Christmas.
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But at those speeds you are both limited by G, not lift limited in your turning.
Ok, on an initial merge doing somewhere from 340-400. On a first engagement of a sortie I've found I'm in those seed ranges for the most part, a little out of the 38's flap range, but still in either a jug or pony's
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here is my thought on the matter:
Since the P47x really needs to keep its E as much as possible and really shouldnt be getting in a turn fight vs anything other than a 190, P38, Typhoon, another jug, or a bomber, as least from my point of view, most of the shots are going to be quick snap shots with minimal time on target ability. So having the greatest amount of firepower available is key. Ditto for taking the Fw190A-8 w/o the 30mm.
The P47D-40 has been my ride as of late and I'm really liking the true BOOM n ZOOM capabilty of the plane. I've tried the 6 gun package and those extra 2 .50 cals of the 8 gun package are worth enough in firepower to sacrifice the seemingly absent penalty in weight/climb/turn.
Do the math sometime and see what the dmg over time is for the 8/.50 cals vs dual 30mm.
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I keep hearing that. I don't know why. If you are above both aircraft's cornering speed, then both of you are limited by Gs unless one of you is limited by control authority. They won't "out-turn" anything above ~270mph they'll turn "about as well" because all our pilots can stand the same amount of G. The only help maneuvering flaps are above corner speed is as an aid to deceleration in the turn, you don't need the extra lift. Speed brakes would serve this function even better...
That is the point. The increased turning ability at high speed is an illusion. The Jug has increased "speed loosing ability" which is excellent even without the flaps. Usually this is not considered an advantage as it means that the jug looses energy very fast and it is not very good at building it back. The philosophy behind such E-bleeding ability is to be able to trade all you potential for one shot opportunity, after which you kill your opponent or disengage.
The jug is considered a very heavy loaded plane. The truth is that when low on fuel it has a wing loading which is only slightly higher than F4U (same wing area, a little more weight) and is much better than the 190s from example. At high altitudes, the P47 has even a power loading which is superior to most planes, but that is irrelevant to AH.
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The jug is considered a very heavy loaded plane. The truth is that when low on fuel it has a wing loading which is only slightly higher than F4U (same wing area, a little more weight) and is much better than the 190s from example.
Eh, let us not kid ourselves. Loaded for similar range, it has a higher wing loading than the Corsair.
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From the perspective of a guy who uses the jug as his primary ride and regularly gets down and dirty with it (see: in a horde getting arse handed to him), having a better snapshot ability far outweighs any perfomance increases from leaving the extra guns in the hangar. When you get in a fight with a jug, you need to bring the bad guys down fast because they will eventually get the upper hand if they have any skill.
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I generally like longer sorties. I'll take full ammo and guns just for the HOPE of getting more kills.
However, taken from the E6B:
P47D-40 8-gun (3400 rounds) 100%: 14951 lbs
P47D-40 8-gun (noAmmo) 100%: 13897 lbs
P47D-40 6-gun (2550 rounds) 100%: 14558 lbs
P47D-40 6-gun (noAmmo) 100%: 13767 lbs
P47D-40 6-gun light ammo (267 rpg): 14264 lbs
3400 rounds 50cal = 1054 lbs
1x 50cal round = 0.31 lbs
empty weight difference between 6/8 gun = 130 lbs
each Browning M2 = 65 lbs
Taking full ammo is like having 1000lb bomb strapped to you while fighting. You save almost 400lbs by taking the 6-gun-full-ammo option, and you same almost 700lbs by taking the 6-gun-light-ammo option.
It makes a big difference in how easily you can fling the plane around, especially when stalling, using flaps, etc.
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IMO, looks like the light ammo load is better deal than leaving two guns in the hangar. You can't argue away the effect of two extra guns in making the best of your firing opportunities on typical maneuvering targets.
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oh I totally agree!
The point to dogfighting in the jug is the extra pair of guns. If I go light most times I take 8-guns-light-ammo. Only time I've ever really taken 6-guns-light-ammo is to really test how far I can push a light jug (not really my style) or to save as much weight on an already-overloaded jabo ride that won't be doing dogfighting (3 bombs 10 rockets and full fuel).
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That is the point. The increased turning ability at high speed is an illusion. The Jug has increased "speed loosing ability" which is excellent even without the flaps. Usually this is not considered an advantage as it means that the jug looses energy very fast and it is not very good at building it back. The philosophy behind such E-bleeding ability is to be able to trade all you potential for one shot opportunity, after which you kill your opponent or disengage.
The jug is considered a very heavy loaded plane. The truth is that when low on fuel it has a wing loading which is only slightly higher than F4U (same wing area, a little more weight) and is much better than the 190s from example. At high altitudes, the P47 has even a power loading which is superior to most planes, but that is irrelevant to AH.
Lol that's my gameplan in a nutshell
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Arguably, the Jug is the most weight-sensitive aircraft in the game, and generally, fighting it as light as possible in the MA should always be the goal. 8 guns with 425 rds/gun is a tremendous weight penalty, if you're intending on air-to-air. 6 guns with 425 rds/gun is heavier than 8 guns with 267 rds/gun. 6 guns with 267 rds/gun obviously decreases the wingloading and assists the roll rate, but as others have said before, its still a P-47 and heavy relative to other aircraft. Loosing the two guns seems like a high penalty for the performance gains.
For escort and fighter sweep missions, I only fly 8 guns, 267 rds/gun. You still have the snapshot of 8 guns, but almost 500 lbs lighter from the ammo difference. I usually run out of fuel before ammo, even in the Jug-N. Only if I'm rolling for air-to-ground or intercepting bombers will I consider the heavier ammo package.
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Hmmm .50 cal round only .31 lbs thats 140 grams no way that could b true iv seen 50 cal round anybody have one to weigh??
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Jug owns :aok I always take 8 .50's but the lighter ammo pack. Little less weight, but still a helluva punch. :salute
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the light 8 gun pack is the way to go, it gives a noticeable improvement in climb over the heavy 8, switching to the 6.. no, sorry. firepower is the biggest asset to the jug, (plus its E retention) so stripping off guns on the jug to make it weigh less, is like taking the wheels off your car to make it weigh less.
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i only take the 8 gun hevy ammo load if i am vultching or if i am just strafeing a vh if not just take the 8 light ammo
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Hello,
For you P47 pilots having tried just using the 6 x 50 cals rather than the 8. Have you found any noticeable difference in maneuverability when using the 6 x 50s with minimal ammo load vs 8 50s?
Thanks,
WT
I notice a lot more climb when I use the 8 .50s with 267 per gun.
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Figured i'd comment on this. In my humble opinion, and since my main ride for the last 3 years has been the 47N - I never saw any point to taking a reduced ammo load or gun setup. What I did instead was something that does not happen often - I planned ahead. Crazy as it sounds - 50% and a drop tank, WEP'n up to 8k, engine cool down to 12k, going level and having full power available to me by the time I get to the area of operations. Got plenty of speed - center drop tank is nearly dry - dump that when I commit to the fight, and return to base 40 minutes later.
Must've been doing something right - 8-10 kills per sortie were not unusual at least for me. But I also had my convergence on the inside set to 475 and 425 on the outside with no tracers - so the extra ammo might've been used as much for killing as it was for ranging shots. But I figure by the time the guy knows he is under attack, i've already saw'd something off anyway.
Life is funny that way. Anyhow, carry on.
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there is a noticeable and worth while gain in going with the light 8 gun pack.. I only take the heavy is on rare occasions where there is a mass bomber riad or something where I may actually need that much ammo
the light 8 gun pack is still well over 2,000 rounds... if you need more than that, .. well you don't need more than that.
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Wolfala is probably the only person I know of, other than some of the 56th FG alumni like Yucca or Blukitty, that can make good use of the 400 round/gun loadout. If you're landing 10 or 12 per sortie, you need that many rounds.
For us mortals on the other hand, we'll never need that much ammo.
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Wolfala is probably the only person I know of, other than some of the 56th FG alumni like Yucca or Blukitty, that can make good use of the 400 round/gun loadout. If you're landing 10 or 12 per sortie, you need that many rounds.
For us mortals on the other hand, we'll never need that much ammo.
I need that much ammo becuase I'm a poor shot! (I also never use wep on N, save for fighting, or preparing to fight (or running like girl on deck with lgays, yaks, k4's in tow)...plane is such less useful without it
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Wolfala is probably the only person I know of, other than some of the 56th FG alumni like Yucca or Blukitty, that can make good use of the 400 round/gun loadout. If you're landing 10 or 12 per sortie, you need that many rounds.
For us mortals on the other hand, we'll never need that much ammo.
I think the most ive LANDED in the jug was 9, and that was when I busted a 110 raid, I made it home somewhere around 200 rounds total remaining..
so yea, if you expect to shoot down 10+ different aircraft in 1 sortie.. then the 400/gun load is warranted.. the other 99.9% of the time, it is not.
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Ya have to ALWAYS expect that! Hope springs eternal
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I ran into a nit B-24 mission a week ago in the P-47N and shot down 10 of them. 3 were in succession during a head on pass through the bomber stream. Take the big gun package. Big firepower and truckloads of ammo are the P-47's strength. If you're going to take less you may as well be in a P-51.
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I ran into a nit B-24 mission a week ago in the P-47N and shot down 10 of them. 3 were in succession during a head on pass through the bomber stream. Take the big gun package. Big firepower and truckloads of ammo are the P-47's strength. If you're going to take less you may as well be in a P-51.
You can guess how these ended.
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r207/wolfala/Aces%20High%20Artwork/FOX2copy.jpg)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r207/wolfala/Aces%20High%20Artwork/P47NvsFW190A8modcopy.jpg)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r207/wolfala/Aces%20High%20Artwork/FW190DvsP47Nmod3copy.jpg)
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Why take less ammo when you can go light by throwing it at the red icons? Take the heavy load and be trigger happy till you are down to about 1000 on the counters. Now you have the reduced load and you can start aiming. Hose 'em down I say.
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Think of it this way... with all the E you *should* have and the tactics that *should* be being used, the extra bit of ammo is only going to do you GOOD. You will be able to stay in the air longer and take down more targets. And remember... your plane gets lighter as you use up ammo and fuel. The only thing that doesnt get lighter is the weight of the plane and the weight of the guns. I'd rather go up, have the extra fuel, have the extra ammo, and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Oh... and the "gaming the game" tactic of taking %50 fuel and DT is for flash-bangers who think they have to have the few extra less poundage to get an extra kill or two. Silly kids. :rolleyes:
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For the record-
If you choose the 6 gun heavy loadout, you might as well take the 8 gun light. There's barely any differene.
HOWEVER
A p47D-11 at 25% gas, with the 6 gun light option is damn near a spitfire. It's a COMPLETELY different monster.
You throw the P47D-40 at that loadout and suddently you've got a jug that'll challenge a P-38 in vertical maneuvering- no lie.
So.... what does this mean?
If you're upping for a short range base defense furball twisty-turny-hair-on-fire thing, take the 6 shooter light. It's a LOT of fun.
If, however you're going to do what the Jug was meant to do (either sweep the skies clean from enemy fighters from a position of advantage, or flatten the nearest small metro with your ordanance), take the 8 guns. it's what driving a Jug is all about :)
8 Gun heavy I've found useful for bomber intercepts/hunts. Normally, however, I'm on the 8 gun light or the 6 gun light.
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Have landed 15 scalps before with light 8 fifties in D40, no need for more ammo ;) For the record, I ALWAYS take 75 and DT in my D11 or D40, drop the DT once at target, and immediately switch to the main fuel, incase the main gets hit ( which happens alot), you'll have a small reserve in the aux. :aok
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A p47D-11 at 25% gas, with the 6 gun light option is damn near a spitfire. It's a COMPLETELY different monster.
You throw the P47D-40 at that loadout and suddently you've got a jug that'll challenge a P-38 in vertical maneuvering- no lie.
So.... what does this mean?
It means you took off with only 7 minutes of fuel (NOT counting WEP), and of those you'll spend 5 minutes taking off and getting to the fight, meaning you get 1 pass to HO all you want then you're dead stick.
In THAT case it doesn't matter WHICH weapons loadout you choose, you won't get to run out of ammo because you'll run out of gas before you get your first combat.
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jugs rule
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The jug, really, is by no means a suitible dogfighter in the MA,
Im going to have to disagree. I believe the jug can hold its own in the MA, its ruggedness and high speed deployable flaps make it ideal IMO. That combined with the 8 50's make most snapshots you get deadly. I agree it is a lot better with a bit of alt under it, as upposed to on the deck.
This is my experience with the d40 and d25 anyways. I usually only take 75% fuel though.