Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: oboe on December 28, 2008, 09:09:30 AM
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I'm trying to keep my old system running on a budget. My old 2.8 Northwood burned up a few months ago, and rather than replace such an old CPU, I upgraded the mobo from an Asus P4P-800 to an AsRock board which has both AGP and PCI graphics slots, and bought a 2.5Ghz dual-core. I was able to use all my old components and did see a performance boost over the old system. This has been a fun project and I am wondering now what inexpensive upgrade will increase my system's AH performance the most.
Here's what I have:
AsRock 4CoreDual-SATA2 upgrade mobo w/AGP and PCI-Express graphics slots
Intel Pentium Dual-Core, 2.5Ghz
1 Gb DDR400 mem
PNY GeForce 7600GS 512Mb (AGP) vid card
80Gb Seagate 7200 rpm SATA HD
Antec Sonata II case with 380W PS
For $20, I can replace the DDR400 RAM with 2GB of DDR667
For $35, I can get another 80Gb Seagate drive and set them up in RAID 0 configuration
What about a vid card upgrade? My current card seems a little weak, and I take a big performance hit when I try to crank up anti-aliasing or anisotropic filtering.
Finally, my PSU is rated for 18A on the 12V rail - is that sufficient for a powerful card like an 8800GT?
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The biggest bang for the buck would be to upgrade the RAM to a higher bus speed and 2 Gb. DDR2 800 is cheap if you're motherboard accepts it. What's the FSB speed of your CPU?
The next move after that is probably a video card (NVidia 9600 or 9800 GT or something like that) but you'd have to upgrade the PSU too. You'll need around 28 amps+ on the 12V rail(s) to run the card and everything else.
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FSB = 1066/800MHz
RAM = DDR 400/DDR2 667. However, it only supports a Max. of 2GB for either. So going with 667 would be best.
Unfortunately the PCI-e slot is x4 and not 16.
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I hate to say it but "repairing" your system to let you use your old components has painted you into a corner regarding how much value you'll get from upgrading on that platform.
You'd have probably been better off going for a modern motherboard with pci-e only vid slot and supporting only DDR2, then getting whatever vid card and memory you could afford until you could get decent upgrades for those. You are right to be concerned about the power supply, but you'll get a better answer by digging into the support forums and tech specs at the various vid card manufacturers websites.
You ought to be able to get a decent ASUS mobo for socket775 for under $75. 2GB of DDR2-800 to match will run you maybe $30-$35, tops. You can get a cheapo pci-e vid card that will destroy your current vid card for well under $100, but if you can go up to $125ish you could get a pretty decent last-gen card like the 8800 or 9800, or a current gen lower-end ati card which might offer better bang for the buck.
DDR2-800 ought to be capable of running slower than 800 and it's probably the same price as DDR2-667, so get ddr2-800 if you upgrade the memory. I recently bought 4gb (2x2gb sticks) of DDR2-1033 for $70 after rebates, so there is no reason why 2 gb of slower DDR2-800 should cost more than half that.
As for hard drive, 500gb drives run $70 or less now. You would want to go with SATA if possible since the newer drives are faster overall than the older PATA drives. This has nothing to do with PATA vs. SATA, just that the newer drives themselves are faster/quieter/cooler.
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Memory is backward compatible, so get the fastest and most you can afford (ie 4gb 2gb x 2). This way you can crank up the FSB and not have any Memory conflicts. If you do crank the FSB you will also drag the CPU up with it in most cases. I agree with the Board upgrade, not to sure I would go ASUS at this time. Reason I say this is... the past 3 months 14 ASUS boards RMAed mostly their higher end boards (Striker Extreme. Striker II Extreme, Maximus Extreme) to 0 EVGA (almost dbl the ASUS builds) 0 Gigabyte (one quarter the ASUS builds) higher end boards. Problems were SATA ports going dead, will not take more then one stick of mem no matter the size, dead Lan ports, and one just stopped working no reason at all.
I agree with eagl, a newer modern 775 board would be a good step for future upgrades and end up with a great lil gaming box.
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Am seriously thinking about getting this board as a stop gap 'til i7's down in price cos my old p4 is creaking.
This board will support ddr2 - 2gig is a sweet spot for xp
I have a 3850agp to pop in it .. but it does have pciexpress slot though i belive it is also limited to 8x - a 8600 or the 3850 is twice the card of the 7800gs/7600gt (had one).
18A a bit iffy.
just for an eg - the step up in vid card will let you run at 1280x1024 with 4af and 8aa.
<edit> only cos on a real tight budget - want an oc'd q6600 to carry me for a year or so.
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I hate to say it but "repairing" your system to let you use your old components has painted you into a corner regarding how much value you'll get from upgrading on that platform.
You'd have probably been better off going for a modern motherboard with pci-e only vid slot and supporting only DDR2, then getting whatever vid card and memory you could afford until you could get decent upgrades for those. You are right to be concerned about the power supply, but you'll get a better answer by digging into the support forums and tech specs at the various vid card manufacturers websites.
You ought to be able to get a decent ASUS mobo for socket775 for under $75. 2GB of DDR2-800 to match will run you maybe $30-$35, tops. You can get a cheapo pci-e vid card that will destroy your current vid card for well under $100, but if you can go up to $125ish you could get a pretty decent last-gen card like the 8800 or 9800, or a current gen lower-end ati card which might offer better bang for the buck.
DDR2-800 ought to be capable of running slower than 800 and it's probably the same price as DDR2-667, so get ddr2-800 if you upgrade the memory. I recently bought 4gb (2x2gb sticks) of DDR2-1033 for $70 after rebates, so there is no reason why 2 gb of slower DDR2-800 should cost more than half that.
As for hard drive, 500gb drives run $70 or less now. You would want to go with SATA if possible since the newer drives are faster overall than the older PATA drives. This has nothing to do with PATA vs. SATA, just that the newer drives themselves are faster/quieter/cooler.
Not to worry, its been a fun learning experience for me. I was out to restore my old system cheaply but retain some limited upgrade capability. Many of the options I considered started to snowball in cost, with one component requiring the upgrade of another, and so on. I always seemed to wind up over $500; so far, I'm in for around $150. I will plan on upgrading to faster RAM; can you suggest a sub-$100 PCI-express video card that will destroy my 7600GS, and work well with my current power supply?
Many thanks!
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Oboe,
I just ordered the same board for some of the same reasons. Actually I fried my BIOS on my old board and realized that a new BIOS chip was $35, this board was only $59.99, so it was a better deal.
Anyway, be very careful about buying a new video card, very few PCIe cards are supported. There is a list in your mobo manual on page 10. Believe it. Also the PCIe slot is 4x, not 16.
IMHO this board is for those of us with old AGP video cards that were top of the line new and still work pretty darn well in a game like Aces High. If you really want to go PCIe video, a more modern board would be a better choice.
As far as RAM, this board maxes out at 2GB. For $22.99 (Newegg, Corsair Value RAM) you can get 2x1Gb DDR2 667. That's a cheap performance upgrade.
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I would think twice before configuring your hd to raid 0 - especially if you're going to store all your data there.
You more than double your chances of an irrecoverable data failure. Unless you do frequent full backups which is pretty unlikely.
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ATI 3650 1G on Sale at Fry's electronics $60 after rebate! Overclocked smashing deal.
http://shop4.frys.com/product/5744492?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
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can you suggest a sub-$100 PCI-express video card that will destroy my 7600GS, and work well with my current power supply?
No. But for $65 after mail in rebate you could buy this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127333
and for another $33 get this to go with it:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171028
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No. But for $65 after mail in rebate you could buy this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127333
and for another $33 get this to go with it:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171028
After my experience with the nvidia 8600 and falcon's experience I am shy about buy Nvidia products.
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Actually Getback issues go both ways with vid cards. I read a lot of Nvidea and ATI problems and it looks like ATI has more problems with things like heat/bios issues/drivers(which seem better in the last 90 days) and general install issues by far. These issues are mainly with 3000 and 4000 series. It seems they have been pretty much straightened out but some people are having install issues which is most likely their doing. I had 2 3870 (crossfired)ATI cards and it was rediculous. I EEXC for a 4870 x 2 and different issues. EEXC'd for Nvidea GTX280 and all was nice. The install was quick and flawless. I could not say that about ATI. BTW, Diamond and Visiontec techs seemed like noobs and wanted to push problem away. To be fair to ATI the cards rate nicely for the money!
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I have a 3870 and a 3850 nary a problem. But you're right of course. Both have had issues. It just seems to me Nvidia has had more. I know falcon likes his new 4850.
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That's like saying I've had better luck with Ford than Chevy or Dodge. I've always driven a Ford and I've always owned an Nvidia product.
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After my experience with the nvidia 8600 and falcon's experience I am shy about buy Nvidia products.
I've had 3 Nvidia video cards and an Nvidia motherboard. All work/have worked flawlessly other than an early BIOS issue (since corrected) with the motherboard.
Fulmar's right... Ford vs Chevy.
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I've had 3 Nvidia video cards and an Nvidia motherboard. All work/have worked flawlessly other than an early BIOS issue (since corrected) with the motherboard.
Fulmar's right... Ford vs Chevy.
x2 except ASUS blahhhhhhh for me at the moment. Still waiting on an RMAed board on the 4th of Dec to come back
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No. But for $65 after mail in rebate you could buy this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127333
and for another $33 get this to go with it:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171028
1G OC'd card over 512..... Which is better???
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That's like saying I've had better luck with Ford than Chevy or Dodge. I've always driven a Ford and I've always owned an Nvidia product.
Fulmar, I owned both and eexc'd 2 ATI's and went Nvidea. This is not a Chevy or Ford prefer situation rather than on hand experience.
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1G OC'd card over 512..... Which is better???
Other than Sold Out and possibly needing even a larger more expensive PSU?
BTW, the Nvidia card is OC'd too.
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Oboe.....be carefulwhat you purchase for a vid card. That 380 watt PS might not be enough.
Concerning another post in this topic.
I'm running 2 X 4850s Crossfire. I love the performance.
I also have a 750 watt PS. Check before purchasing a vid card the available power to operate it.
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ATI 3650 1G VIDEO CARD VS 9600GT (512). I Looked for comparisons but I think the 3650 1G is a better card Baldeagle. Prove me wrong..... I am Nvidea fan. Just would like to see!
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ATI 3650 1G VIDEO CARD VS 9600GT (512). I Looked for comparisons but I think the 3650 1G is a better card Baldeagle. Prove me wrong..... I am Nvidea fan. Just would like to see!
In a side by side comparison the telling stats are:
Stream Processors; 64 9600 GT; 120 ATI 3650
Memory Size; 512MB 9600 GT; 1GB ATI 3650
Memory Interface; 256-bit 9600 GT; 128-bit ATI 3650
Memory Type; GDDR3 9600 GT; GDDR2 ATI 3650
While the 3650 has more memory and stream processors, the 9600 has faster memory with a higher bit rate which allows it to deal with instructions and output data faster than the ATI card. From a review: "The Radeon HD 3650 generates just 16.0GB/s of memory bandwidth using a 128-bit memory bus , which is considerably less than that of the old GeForce 7600 GT." The 9600 GT outputs 57.6Gb/s which I found on the eVGA products pages.
In a 3D Mark comparison the 512 9600 GT scores a 10 (on a 1-10 scale) vs. the ATI 1Gb 3650's 1.4 at 1440x900 resolution: http://www.techspot.com/review/98-diamond-viper-radeon-3650/page3.html (other resoltions included in chart).
You can continue through the comparisons at the site above (2008 comparison).
In another review I found:
"Given the performances of this GeForce 9600 GT, it’s hard not to be impressed. The card offers performances that enable you to really take advantage of the latest resource heavy games and this in satisfactory conditions.
To be sure, it was already the case with the Radeon HD 3850 although it is less consistent especially when anti-aliasing is active, a big black mark against the Radeon HD 2000 and 3000. In addition, Nvidia shows a real desire to offer high quality required for demanding gamers by regularly integrating anti-aliasing support in drivers for all games that don’t support it. Combined with slightly better performances compared to the Radeon HD 3850, this makes the GeForce 9600 GT the new reference in the mid-level.
Lower down the line and for demanding gamers, the Radeon HD 3650 unfortunately doesn’t add anything new and is just equal to the Radeon HD 2600 XT GDDR3."
All the memory in the world doesn't matter if you can't get it to the system.
Your recommendation would have actually been a step backward for the OP.
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Nice. Thanx
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Oboe.....be carefulwhat you purchase for a vid card. That 380 watt PS might not be enough.
Concerning another post in this topic.
I'm running 2 X 4850s Crossfire. I love the performance.
I also have a 750 watt PS. Check before purchasing a vid card the available power to operate it.
Ati cards require much less power than Nvidea. 380W should be OK for the 3650 but probably not for the Nvidea 9600. 9600 recommends 400W PSU and 26AMPS. The card will work with less than 26 amps. I believe it really needs 18 to get rolling and uses less after it starts. manufacturers go high on min. amps cause there are poor PSU's out there.
3650 is min 300W power supply.
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I posted a PSU to go with the 9600 which was adequate to power it and together they were under the OP's $100 limit.
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Checked AsRock's site for PCIe cards compatible with the board, and anything I'd consider would also require a new PSU. I'm thinking now I'll just pop for 2 Gbs of faster memory, and save the $$ on new PSU and vidcard for the next build. This box has been my AH unit for 5 yrs; I'll stretch it out a bit longer. Getting 75fps (monitor refresh rate) in most situations, so can't complain. Will have to wait longer to get a machine to support the eye-popping graphics settings I'd eventually like to run with...