Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hamish on June 21, 2001, 02:24:00 AM
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I feel that bomb drops should be disabled while on ground. I know people have brought this point up before, but i never saw any response one way or the other. It would prevent the people that roll buffs over an m3 dropping troops into the maproom and suiciding to prevent a field capture. I don't mind getting straffed into oblivion in a GV, but come on, rolling a bomber over a gv and dropping? it seems a bit much. even for me.
Hamish out!
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We had this sortie today where we were taking a5.
You just knew that the inevitable was going to happen as our C47 rolled up to the map room and 1 plane was there to vulch with hangars up. The car bombing was going to commense.
Right as the C47 pulled up to the map room... he released his troops and BAM!!! We captured the base.
You see... we had taken the 15 seconds required to kill the ammo bunkers.
AKDejaVu
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yeah That is what always should be done... straffe 2-3 ammo crates and no car bombing... no pain... all is fare. :)
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Actually the car bombing is not an unrealistic tactic...
Retreating armies historically would destroy bridges, burn buildings, poison wells - just to deny the advancing army anything usefull.
nexus
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Originally posted by DmdNexus:
Actually the car bombing is not an unrealistic tactic...
nexus
You mean to tell me, that a pilot, would jump into his airplane, drive it over to an armed troop transport and drop a bomb on it killing himself not only the troops running into his "map" room is "realistic"?
:rolleyes:
Please.
I'm not worried about the realism of the tactic, I think of it as a side effect of being able to release bombs while on the runway. I do believe that buff guns originally were enabled while the buffs were on the ground. Then it was changed for "playability" to prevent Ackstars from doing the same thing during base capture. This is a "gameplay" issue, and i'm providing my feedback to it. If i remember right, most buff's couldn't drop bombs while they were on the ground anyway, feel free to correct me if i am wrong.
regards,
Hamish!
[ 06-21-2001: Message edited by: Hamish ]
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Hamish,
To my understanding WWII iron bombs were triggered by an impact pin inside the nose, and the nose had to be crumpled a certain amount before that pin would trigger the charge.
Simply dropping the bomb from two to three feet would not cause it to explode.
Desparate people do desparate things during war. i.e. Kamakazis, there were even kamakazi torpedo drivers.
Who's to say they didn't bypass the firing pin and added a car battery trigger.
Nexus :p
[ 06-21-2001: Message edited by: DmdNexus ]
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Fuzes come in many shapes and forms. Anyone that thinks there is a specific way to detonate a bomb is mistaken. Where there is a will there is a way.
Anyone that thinks that it is unrealistic for a pilot to: " jump into his airplane, drive it over to an armed troop transport and drop a bomb on it killing himself not only the troops running into his "map" room " is unrealistic needs to evaluate just how realistic it is for a vehicle with only 10 soldiers to drive unopposed into an occupied airfield.
AKDejaVu
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Lucid point AKD and well generalized.
For me, the game needs to put some barriers up to prevent total mass dweebery. Im not sure how to do this, Ill leave that to HT and Pyro -but spawning OTG and dropping a bomb blowing yourelf up and any other NMY plane within 400 feet is about as arcadish and childish as it gets. AH has the framework to be truly splendid, I mean maximus excellentis! Folks like you should push for it whenever possible!
I only wish to see the bar raised where possible, never lowered.
Y
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Ummm.. whatever yeager.
Its just that HTC has put things in place to prevent this from happening. Its just that there aren't many people willing to do it.
DESTROY THE AMMO BUNKERS. If you don't.. you risk the consequences.
AKDejaVu
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I can't help but wonder why it is I've never seen this happen.
AKDejaVu
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DJVU why the hell are you so conservative man? You protest every proposed change to AH as if your life depended on things staying the same...
Honestly DJVU why do you always act you like this?
Do you resist everything new and different in your real life? I suppose you only buy USA made goods as well, cuz fer damn straight sure them furners cant do nuthin as good as us... :) (joke)
Right?
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I agree destroy the ammo bunkers solves the problem... almost...
the IL-2 still has forward firing guns enabled that it can use to strafe the troops.
Perhaps these should be disabled.
Nexus
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Anyone that thinks that it is unrealistic for a pilot to: " jump into his airplane, drive it over to an armed troop transport and drop a bomb on it killing himself not only the troops running into his "map" room " is unrealistic needs to evaluate just how realistic it is for a vehicle with only 10 soldiers to drive unopposed into an occupied airfield.
AKDejaVu
I don't quite understand what you were trying to say here deja, wre you trying to say i am being unrealistic? or that expecting realism by me is unrealistic? or, that i think it's unrealistic to be realistic about unrealism? sorry, thoroughly confused by this whole statement.
But, maybe to clarify, yeager sums it up pretty well. I don't know that i'd use the word "dweebish" (i just personaly don't like to use the term) but it's Close. That's what i think of things like "car bombing"
I didn't write this to turn into a flamefest between people of differing opinions, and i apologize if i offended anyone so far, nexus. I didn't mean to.
I hadn't thought of the ammo bunkers, for sure that does solve the problem, but my point is, this shouldn't be a problem that has to be solved in this manner. (i'm rusty been gone from AH for 6 months going to school) Before yesterday i had never seen anyone do this either. When i did see it, it just erked me. I thought i'd post about it here, as this was the forum for feedback on gameplay issues, and well the last time i checked, it's mainly for HTC's attention. feel free to state your opinion, but, this wasn't written to you, or for you, it's for HTC.Thanks for your time :)
regards,
Hamish!
P.S. Deja, I admire your enthusiasm, but i think your foundation for the arguments a little weak ;)
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"Car bombing' is dweebery of the highest order however it is whats called a last ditch attempt to save the field which I can understand it's just the method is dweeby. I should be able to salvage some of the enemies resources for my own use after I capture the field. It's good tactics not to level the place otherwise ya can't use the dern thing 'till it's repaired.
Suggestion: Make available for one time use two teams of a certain number of AI troops at the field being attacked that can be sent out to ignite fuses and blow up the map room so all invading goons are killed or lite fuses that destroys the entire air field leaving nothing for the victors to use.
Using them to kill the goons invading a map room would probably require that once all the invading goons are inside there would be a delay before a capture is registered. This would allow the invading goons to be killed in the exposion IF the AI troops got to their destination without getting killed. The second team could be sent to another building that has fuses igniting charges that destroy the entire air field, again only if the AI troops make it to their destination. They would have the same icon setting as other troops so they could be seen by planes and GV's. But unlike goons if anyone of them make it to their destination charges go off and KaBoom!
Ok just rambling hope someone can make sense of what I just said I can't :)
[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: Professor Fate ]
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Car bombing is a way of saying "I suck at preventing you from attacking my airfield, and I am a dweeb of the highest order" in my opinion. I've never done it, never would condone it in my squadron, and if your squadron condones it, you're mud in my eyes.
This is what drives people away from the game. I could give a crap if someone forgot to take out the Ammo bunkers, blowing ones self up to prevent a field capture is lower than the slime that the slime scrapes off their shoes.
IMO. :)
Edit: Its not limited to C47's either, now , folks like NHCouger do it while sitting on runway, and when someone swoops down, they release their bomb(s) (depnding of fighter or bomber) to kill you. He even said it was as valid of a tactic as vulching! LOL, here we have only a handful of fighters, capping a field, with goon on approach, denying the enemy to take off so our goon can capture, and the only tactic he finds valid is by eliminating all the cappers by spawning, releasing bombs, killing self and capper, rinse and repeat...I was VERY pissed...its a combination of things like this that will cause 'those on the edge' to hit the delete account key (not saying I would, but hey!)
Now, granted, we *should* have taken out all hangars to prevent this, however, we were short on manpower (think Knights)...it still does NOT condone this kind of gaming the game, you just can't say "Well, its a a valid tactic if you didn't do your job!"...that BS deja and you know it.
HTC needs to address these sort of things, it could cause a potential loss of folks who are on for a two week trial or those folks who are 'on the edge' due to a few game play issues that have been raised in this gameplay forum.
[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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Prof Fate, stop that! You're trying to improve gameplay by coming up with good ideas! We can't have that around here!! ;)
Guys, what Deja is trying to say (I think) is twofold. First, take out the ammo bunkers if you want to stop "carbombing" right now in the game when you're taking over a base. It's not that hard, and the ammo bunker WILL regenerate eventually. The attackers have the power to remove the carbombing threat, it's just a price you pay (taking over a base shouldn't be FREE when people are willing to defend it.) Deja's second point is that the method of taking over a base that's in the game (10 troops to the maproom) isn't realistic in itself, so why should the last ditch effort to prevent it be restricted to "realism"? If an alternative last ditch effort in the game itself was present, I'm sure Deja would be all for removing bomb drops on the ground. IMO, as long as the capability is there, the defenders should use it! Maybe one day we can spawn player controlled troopers and shoot at the AI troopers (or spawn a MG nest) or have AI defenders like Prof mentioned. Then of course, you'd have to take out the barracks instead of the ammo bunkers, but at least it'd be more realistic, eh? ;)
(edit to fix a negative in the wrong place!)
[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: Nifty ]
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Sorry Nifty, to say "You didn't do your job, therefore dweeby behavior is accepted" does NOT condone the dweeby behavior. That would be like me saying "Well, you should have done a proper lane change, but you didn't, so I ran you off the road"....get my point?
Edit: I WILL agree that taking out ammo bunkers is a good work around for something that is obviously in need of a fix.
[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Sorry Nifty, to say "You didn't do your job, therefore dweeby behavior is accepted" does NOT condone the dweeby behavior. That would be like me saying "Well, you should have done a proper lane change, but you didn't, so I ran you off the road"....get my point?
Edit: I WILL agree that taking out ammo bunkers is a good work around for something that is obviously in need of a fix.
[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
Difference is one is a game and the other is real life. ;) Put an alternative in the game to car bombing, and then remove bomb drops on the ground. I really am all for that!
It's dweeby behavior for sure, but after the fighter and vehicle hangars are down, there is no other alternative. As long as players can spawn at a base, they should have some method of defending the base, whether it be dweeby gaming the game "tactics" or a new in game method of map room defense.
Hell, you get called a dweeb for everything but flying a C202 in this game anyways! ;)
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Anybody who car bombs should be kicked outa the game.
(this doesn't apply to me of course)
:D
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So, Nifty, when we had guys leaving the map to go undetected to your HQ to bomb it, should HTC not fixed that? (Fix was :Added an enemy indicator when planes are outside the map.)
Should we instead had a 24 hour cap on our respective HQ?
Alternatives? Just as many alternatives for the defender as the agressor, ie. agressor takes out ammo, but defender uses CAP tactics, and/or take off from another field and intercept.
Currently, we have a bunch of morons just sitting at a field, waiting for the goon/M3 to come in, so they can carbomb it, or, waiting for guys that are using airfield denial tactics (Vulching, if you will) so they can spawn, drop bomb, and kill themselves and the vulcher.
Hmmmm, how did we reach this cross-roads? :D
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After watching the movie "Pearl Harbor", it might be kind of cool to have bombs skip with delayed detonation.
The physics would be kind of tough I would think.
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Rip, I've been saying that we need an alternative to "car bombing." Flying from another base doesn't count, because if the M3 is on the field, upping from another base isn't gonna get you there in time.
A bomber hangar that is up at a field is the real world analogy to bombers physically being ready at the field, with pilots and crews there to man them. If that's all that was left at a field, and it was being attacked, don't you think the crews would do something to defend their base? Of course! They'd use small arms fire more than likely, and not explode bombs. However, we don't have that first person shooter ability in AH. "Carbombing" is the only last ditch effort in defending. I would 100% much rather see another alternative for players that can spawn at a base. Perhaps you can spawn a MG nest. It'd give you some sandbags and a nice little .50 cal MG you can use to mow down the troopers with. That'd be much better, IMO, than carbombing. If that was an option, I'd support no bomb drops on the ground. Until an alternative like that is in the game, I think "carbombing" should still be there.
as for the off map thing. HTC didn't turn it off, they just added an indicator to let you know it's there. How you deal with it is up to you. You know carbombing is there at the moment, how you deal with it is up to you.
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So, Nifty, when we had guys leaving the map to go undetected to your HQ to bomb it, should HTC not fixed that? (Fix was :Added an enemy indicator when planes are outside the map.)
Car Bombing: Fix was: make destruction of ammo bunkers disable ordinance at that field.
Both behaviors are dweeby in my oppinion. Both behaviors also have tools in place to deal with it.
AKDejaVu
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Hey guys one thing I havent seen here is the simple fact kill hangars and no probs cant spawn when disabled, so the simple solution is to disable all before risking goon seems reasonable too me ;) But I still think we need morre durable ground defences at fields to deter this vulch stage were going through put more emphisis on hitting resouces instead of waiting for vulch kills overhead.
Just my 2cents
GW
:)
[ 07-05-2001: Message edited by: gwjr ]