Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: texasmom on December 30, 2008, 06:30:02 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIO8OI0JP50
Looks awesome :aok
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james bond has a time machine and is jewish?
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Dang looks really good I wonder if its true, it didnt say but it said the story you didnt hear about or something like that
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Awsome, looks like being James Bond helped Daniel Craig.
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I saw the preview for this last week. Wanting to see more about the movie, I went to the website and read about the back story. http://www.defiancemovie.com/ (http://www.defiancemovie.com/)
I understand that this is a "Hollywood" movie and that the facts are sometimes way off from being historically accurate. One thing that bothered me was most of the books I've read about regarding the uprisings in Poland by the Jews and the Polish underground, none of them ever mentioned these groups joining the Soviets in attacks against the Germans.
Here is one reference that I found I would like to share with everyone:http://www.warsawuprising.com/faq.htm (http://www.warsawuprising.com/faq.htm)
There is a difference between the Warsaw Uprising and the Ghetto Uprising. I believe that the movie does accomplish one thing though, it brings to light an event in history that has mostly been forgotten.
I intend on seeing this movie for myself. I just hope that it's not disappointing.
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This is one of a bunch of good movies coming out soon (Gran Torino looks good too).
I've been anticipating its release since I put the poster up for it at work last month.
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Dang looks really good I wonder if its true, it didnt say but it said the story you didnt hear about or something like that
Yup its based on a true story about the brothers organizing the defence and escape of a large group of Jews. I figure it will be FAR better than Tom's movie.
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yeah i saw a preview for this in theaters when i was going to see valkriye, this looks way cool.
There is a difference between the Warsaw Uprising and the Ghetto Uprising. I believe that the movie does accomplish one thing though, it brings to light an event in history that has mostly been forgotten.
have you ever seen the pianist? Just an amazing film, one of my favorites of all time and it shows I believe the Ghetto Uprising... it might be the other one, but it shows a counter attack against the Germans, I suggest The Pianist for everyone, just fantantasic, truly amazing movie, I believe it's a true story too, not sure.
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have you ever seen the pianist? Just an amazing film, one of my favorites of all time and it shows I believe the Ghetto Uprising... it might be the other one, but it shows a counter attack against the Germans, I suggest The Pianist for everyone, just fantantasic, truly amazing movie, I believe it's a true story too, not sure.
Yes. That was also based on a true story. Another fantastic movie.
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my dad said dan tarino looked like dirty harry retired
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I'm looking forward to seeing it. Thanks for the link :salute
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yeah i saw a preview for this in theaters when i was going to see valkriye, this looks way cool.
have you ever seen the pianist? Just an amazing film, one of my favorites of all time and it shows I believe the Ghetto Uprising... it might be the other one, but it shows a counter attack against the Germans, I suggest The Pianist for everyone, just fantantasic, truly amazing movie, I believe it's a true story too, not sure.
Other then the fact it was directed by a guy who once gave a 13yo girl wine and quaaludes and then raped her.
Lately he's been the Euro-poster boy for all thats wrong with America and her justice system. The French have shielded him and befriended him.
And thats a true story about Roman Polanski.
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Isn't he the guy that filmed Cold Mountain - A movie set in the US CIVIL WAR - in fricken Romania?
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Good movie. Switches between Russian, subtitled, and english. I thought it was a nice touch. Has Stookas and a 1 Panzer mk III with what looks like a pipe for a barrel.
Good flik. No british accents.
wrongway
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ya know something that really irritates me as of late is all the WWII movies that all carry a jewish plight undertone.
dont get me wrong, what happened to them was horrible, it never should have happened and it shall be a blight upon the german race for many years to come. these things i acknowledge and understand so there is no need to remind me of them in this thread.
my point is that many people struggled against the nazi occupation of their lands and they were heroes in their own rights, but because they had nothing to do with the jewish plight their stories go untold by the american mass media (movies ect). i find this to be deplorable.
were those involved in the french resistance less brave? had it not been for their efforts D-Day would have never been possible.
what about the russian civilians trapped in stalingrad during the german siege. they had no food no weapons no heat they lived in tunnels and basements their own government had written them off as an acceptable loss, but still they gave no aid to the german soldiers.
what about the yugoslavians, theirs i believe was one of the biggest undergrounds and eventually turned into an actual military force.
i again repeat, what happened to the jewish people was disgusting and horrific, but there are other stories that should be told also. WWII was not about only the jews, many others sacrificed everything, including their lives. they have earned the right to be acknowledged.
FLOTSOM
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ya know something that really irritates me as of late is all the WWII movies that all carry a jewish plight undertone.
dont get me wrong, what happened to them was horrible, it never should have happened and it shall be a blight upon the german race for many years to come. these things i acknowledge and understand so there is no need to remind me of them in this thread.
my point is that many people struggled against the nazi occupation of their lands and they were heroes in their own rights, but because they had nothing to do with the jewish plight their stories go untold by the american mass media (movies ect). i find this to be deplorable.
were those involved in the french resistance less brave? had it not been for their efforts D-Day would have never been possible.
what about the russian civilians trapped in stalingrad during the german siege. they had no food no weapons no heat they lived in tunnels and basements their own government had written them off as an acceptable loss, but still they gave no aid to the german soldiers.
what about the yugoslavians, theirs i believe was one of the biggest undergrounds and eventually turned into an actual military force.
i again repeat, what happened to the jewish people was disgusting and horrific, but there are other stories that should be told also. WWII was not about only the jews, many others sacrificed everything, including their lives. they have earned the right to be acknowledged.
FLOTSOM
But remember, there are those who deny it ever happened.....
It's just easier to find an underdog and a villain this way. Cut and dried.
Don't want to spoil it for anyone any more than I already have, but there was an interesting prayer said at one point in the movie that made me say hmmmm.
wrongway
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There are and will be many other stories other than just the Jewish ones.
Here is the trailer in HD... much better...
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=-J4mN-W-p0A&feature=related (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=-J4mN-W-p0A&feature=related)
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Apologies for bumping a rather old thread - just watched this film and its excellent. Maybe not 100% accurate - I'm aware of the Bielski story from other sources - but a very moving story.
Sure, this is just my opinion, but if you haven't seen it, I recommend you do.
Wurzel
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I am definately going to see this one. About time to mention the Russian Partisans who fought a gruesome battle against the Nazis. And they did become a menace.
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This movie doesn't hit the U.S. for another week (January 16th). But, since it's been almost 4 years since I've actually gone and seen a movie, I'm very interested in this one.
Keep those opinions coming. :aok
Obie
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Well Flotsam, there have been hundreds of movies made about the war. Covering many aspects of the war from any number of angles. Not just English speaking movies. As far as I know this hasn't been done before. Thus it is worthy of attention. In any case Hollywood movies are notorious for over emphasising the American side of things to the point where other countries contributions are overlooked. The Brits are always whinging on about that. In reality this is a rare example of a mainstream movie dealing with the subject. Jewish resistance is not very well known.
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Well Flotsam, there have been hundreds of movies made about the war. Covering many aspects of the war from any number of angles. Not just English speaking movies. As far as I know this hasn't been done before. Thus it is worthy of attention. In any case Hollywood movies are notorious for over emphasising the American side of things to the point where other countries contributions are overlooked. The Brits are always whinging on about that. In reality this is a rare example of a mainstream movie dealing with the subject. Jewish resistance is not very well known.
I agree with this statement. That's why we've got books on the subject. Never underestimate the power in knowledge that is gained by reading a book.
Obie
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Jewish resistance is not very well known.
Jewish resistance is not well known because there was almost no resistance to speak of. Granted, there was the uprising in the Warsaw ghetto, but its uniqueness leaves the psychologically-minded historian scratching his head. The lack of Jewish resistance is well documented by Raul Hilberg, who spends a portion of his The Destruction of The European Jews trying to explain why more didn't fight to the death long after it was apparent that their extermination was imminent.
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In any case Hollywood movies are notorious for over emphasising the American side of things to the point where other countries contributions are overlooked.
i completely agree with this. we americans are exceptionally conceited and self centered about any history we can lay some kind of claim to.
additionally if we dont like the rest of the worlds reality, even about their own history, thats ok, cause we will just make a ton of lame and factually inaccurate movies until, with alot of sex and theatrical special effects to enthrall the masses, we convince the mainstream that our version of their history is the right one.
just look at the block buster movie 300. it is so disgustingly inaccurate it makes me ill to think about how big a joke it makes of those that really lived and died at Thermopylae. i read Herodotus when i was 7ish and have taken that story as a moral standing ground for my life ever since. so although i am not Greek, i am never the less insulted on behalf of those who are and whose history has been so perverted in that movie.
FLOTSOM
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just look at the block buster movie 300. it is so disgustingly inaccurate it makes me ill to think about how big a joke it makes of those that really lived and died at Thermopylae. i read Herodotus when i was 7ish and have taken that story as a moral standing ground for my life ever since. so although i am not Greek, i am never the less insulted on behalf of those who are and whose history has been so perverted in that movie.
FLOTSOM
Well said. If you like ancient war histories also check out Thuycidides, who is generally regarded as the first scientific historian in the west (he leaves the gods out of it). His account of the Peloponnesian war is excellent, and totally undermines the Hollywood fantasy of Spartan aggressiveness. If anything, the Spartans were supremely cautious, to the point of fault, and it was the Athenians who were risk-takers in battle.
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If you want to attack 300 for accuracy then you need to go back about 20-odd years because the movie was based virtually frame-by-frame on a comic book. Blame Frank Miller, not the movie.
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Blame Frank Miller, not the movie.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/JonnyBoy64/Random%20pics/monty_python_witch.jpg)
Burn him! :D
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Isn't he the guy that filmed Cold Mountain - A movie set in the US CIVIL WAR - in fricken Romania?
Because he can't enter the States or he'll be arrested.
ack-ack
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I understand that this is a "Hollywood" movie and that the facts are sometimes way off from being historically accurate. One thing that bothered me was most of the books I've read about regarding the uprisings in Poland by the Jews and the Polish underground, none of them ever mentioned these groups joining the Soviets in attacks against the Germans.
There was a large Polish Communist partisan army that was organized and equipped by the Soviets. The Soviets refused to let the Western Allies lend air support to the Polish underground resistance fighters during the Warsaw uprising because those resistance forces were largely made up of anti-communist partisans. It wasn't until they were pretty much beaten and destroyed as an effective resistance force that the Soviet let the Western Allies finally help out in the way of air support and supplies. This was done so Stalin could be sure that he could install a friendly communist puppet government after the war.
ack-ack
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Apologies for bumping a rather old thread - just watched this film and its excellent. Maybe not 100% accurate - I'm aware of the Bielski story from other sources - but a very moving story.
Sure, this is just my opinion, but if you haven't seen it, I recommend you do.
Wurzel
Heard an interview of the guy who wrote the book -- said he wasn't even aware of the story till he was researching what eventually turned into Schindler's List. Called up a source, told him he was researching the story of Schindler's saving 300 Jews -- and the source (who turned out to be one of the brothers in THIS story) said something like "300? Bah! How'd you like to hear about people who saved 3 THOUSAND??"
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Heard an interview of the guy who wrote the book -- said he wasn't even aware of the story till he was researching what eventually turned into Schindler's List. Called up a source, told him he was researching the story of Schindler's saving 300 Jews -- and the source (who turned out to be one of the brothers in THIS story) said something like "300? Bah! How'd you like to hear about people who saved 3 THOUSAND??"
Interesting. I think I'd like to read the book.
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I think Schindler actually passed the 1000, roughly 1200 if I recall right.
The Warshaw uprising was twice, ending in a complete rubble, -it was the worst beaten city of WW2.
Getting back to the Russians Partisans, one thing is interesting. There were lots of soldiers among them.
The Germans worked on a plan called "Kesselshlacht" or "Cauldron Battle". That meant encirclin (passing) big pockets of enemy forces very fast, cutting their supplies and communications and then anihilating them. This worked well in Poland, they were softer in W-Europe, and completely brutal in the USSR. But Russia was too big for that to succeed, and big areas could not be covered with panzered-up forces. They couldn't even hold all their captives (which counted millions) so there was a lot of escapees about.
One big area they could not master with their mechanized force were the Priphet marshes (SP?) where the lack of roads and rails made warfare a nightmare for the Wehrmacht.
It was their undoing.
My guess at Russian partisans under arms is by some millions...perhaps. And they were a constant menace to the Germans.
I am not sure how the Red army tackled with them or co-operated, - they tended to be very brutal on those who "had surrendered" or been caught.
Always good to look at a half-forgotten story though. After all, WW2 was a very expensive tragety, and we should use that "investment" to learn enough to avoid repetition.
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You know thinking about it, off thread I think but worth a thought. The Nazis made an unholy mess of their conquests. Particularly in the east. They were so obsessed wiping out all the 'sub-humans'. All that time and resources and manpower was used up on the vendetta against not only the Jews but Slavs in general. The Jews were only the first on the list. They fully intended to wipe most of the Poles and other when the time came. If instead they had harnessed all those resources and people against Stalin's Russia, things may have been quite different. It was mostly Hitler of course. Probably the biggest single factor in the defeat of the Nazis was his meddling. It was said somewhere the Hitler was the single biggest asset to the Allied cause.
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You know thinking about it, off thread I think but worth a thought. The Nazis made an unholy mess of their conquests. Particularly in the east. They were so obsessed wiping out all the 'sub-humans'. All that time and resources and manpower was used up on the vendetta against not only the Jews but Slavs in general. The Jews were only the first on the list. They fully intended to wipe most of the Poles and other when the time came. If instead they had harnessed all those resources and people against Stalin's Russia, things may have been quite different. It was mostly Hitler of course. Probably the biggest single factor in the defeat of the Nazis was his meddling. It was said somewhere the Hitler was the single biggest asset to the Allied cause.
I wouldn't have believed this before I read up on the subject, but it's true that extermination of the Jews was a greater priority than winning the war. Productive factories employing Jews were frequently liquidated by the SS. The task of the einsatzgruppen was made easier by the fact that many old Ukrainians and other eastern Europeans, including Jews, remembered WW1 and assumed the Germans were there to liberate them a second time from Russian domination. With their control and filtering of all information, the communists did little to warn the Jews of the new political reality in Germany, and when they did give warning it was far too late.
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The Einsatzgruppen had quite some "contribution". They lead to incredible hate and resistance that would last beyond the last bullet.
Their work also turned men in power within the Reich against the Reich, -a good example is Canaris, who's connection with the Brits is yet not completely unveiled.
And this idea, annihilating armies, slowed down the German advance. That alone was their undoing in Russia in 1941...maybe.
I have seen many quotes from LW pilots at the eastern front, scratching their head about the Russians being so full of hate. Well, they had their bunkers and their missions, - not everybody could witness what the Einsatztruppen were up to.
Actually started in Poland in 1939, and even the Brits got some taste of it in France. (small scale).
The more agressive SS forces would shoot and then ask, - Student, the commander of the Parachute forces of the Wehrmacht was shot through the head by an SS officer in France in 1940, but survived...
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Just saw this today. It's good, just not quite what I had expected. I would have to recommend it though. It seems to be more of an introspective of the different thought processes. The comment in an earlier post by Anaxogoras was basically addressed in the movie. I would have to say that if this is how they were in that time, the way some were reflected in the movie, I'm stupified. Some of them had this "oh well, here we go again" attitude. Definately a movie to viewed by the masses.
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I have seen many quotes from LW pilots at the eastern front, scratching their head about the Russians being so full of hate.
In the Blonde Knight, Erich Hartmann describes two instances about a captured Soviet pilot and what he witnessed happened to a downed German pilot. He wrote about how the German pilots would go out and 'recover' the downed Soviet pilots and take them to their base and basically treat the Soviet pilot like a visiting friend. It was during one of these episodes that the Germans learned how to keep their engines from freezing during the cold Soviet winter and how they were able to gather so much information and intelligence from the down pilots which were usually more than willing to 'spill the beans'. In stark contrast was the story he told of watching a German pilot from another unit make a forced landing and then watching the Soviet plane that shot him down land near the downed German plane and exiting out of his plane and running to the German plane where the German pilot was climbing out of the cockpit. Hartmann at that point thought the Soviet pilot was going to just capture the German pilot but instead watched in horror as the Soviet pilot apparently picked something up from the ground and started to beat the German pilot to death as he was trying to get out of the cockpit. And just like you mentioned, was shocked at the level of hatred.
ack-ack
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I'm shocked that the Germans were shocked at the level of hatred. After all if you invade another country, lay waste to it, kill men, women and children you can't really be surprised when the people of that country take it personally. In truth though, Soviet citizens were indoctrinated to hate the Nazis and saw all Germans that way. In it's own way the Soviet regime was as nasty and as vicious as the Nazis. They way they treated their own people was as a bad as their enemies.
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I'm shocked that the Germans were shocked at the level of hatred. After all if you invade another country, lay waste to it, kill men, women and children you can't really be surprised when the people of that country take it personally. In truth though, Soviet citizens were indoctrinated to hate the Nazis and saw all Germans that way. In it's own way the Soviet regime was as nasty and as vicious as the Nazis. They way they treated their own people was as a bad as their enemies.
Would you be shocked if we told you that many Germans didn't know about the Einsatzgruppen? Especially if they entered the war in late '42 or in '43, like Hartmann, almost all the evidence would be buried. In the memoir The Forgotten Soldier, the naive 16 year old Alsatian joins up in late '42, notices an empty ghetto, but doesn't put two and two together. Again, many east Europeans did welcome the Germans as liberators, at first...Ukrainians, Belorussians, Estonians, etc. Remember, this was a war to rid the world of communism and the United States was going to switch sides to fight alongside the Wehrmacht. :lol