Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: TheWobble on November 18, 2000, 04:15:00 AM
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I am a "buff weenie" and i have noticed what annoys both bomber pilots and the people who like their fields in one piece. The way the bombs fall, they dont disperse at all. i mean if you are at 30k and drop 12 500's in a fast salvo they will land right after one another in a perfect line.this cannot be right. also this makes is so these lancs can come at at 35k and snipe all your hangers,
the way it shoud be is this.
Your at 15k, you can probably hit a larg hangar with 1 bomb say %70 give or take.
Your at 20k things start getting hairy maby 25-30% chance of hitting larg hangar with 1 bomb.
Your at 25k and above, forget hitting any specific target, what ya got to to is carpet.
now some may think this is bad for bombers but look at it this way..
at 30k in your b-17 you could drop 12 500's with like a .1 delay on 12 bomb salvo and insted of that nice little line, you have 12 bombs lading randomly roughly inside the perimeter of the base. sometimes you may kill alot of things, other times just a few gune emplacements. and thats REAL, I would love to come over one of the big fields with 2 or 3 other 17's and look back and see all these little blasts walking across the field. The point is this will benifit all, you buffs wont be able to pick off all the hangars then guns and capture the field with just 1 or 2 bombers in 10 min. and on the other hand a buff can fly over target and dump all his bombs without HAVING to try to snipe all the hangars, he'll drop nad he knows he'll get hits what and where who knows but such is the way with bombers.
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Leave bombers alone..
AKSKurj
(rarely fly em anyways)
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thats why you dont care about them, thats all i fly and it bugs me that HTC will go through all these great pains with charts and what not for everything, and yet let the basic falling of solid objects be so incredibly unrealistic, the way it is now is a major part of why so many people dont like bombers, too accurate.
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Maybe, just maybe, if it took more skill to aim the bombs than being able to use Windows with a mouse... bombers would still be too accurate vs historical record, but it would be because of "virtual pilot uberskill" rather than an idiotproof bombsight. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Actually I do care about the buffs, when I say rarely I guess about 5-10% of my sorties I fly a buff. And when I do get in a bomber I wanna be able to hit my target!!
I miss with eggs about 5% of the time. If I up and grab for 30 mins, only to just soften my target without killin it i just won't bother again, I'll Jabo.
LEAVE BUFFS ALONE
AKSKurj
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I'm with Skurj on this one.
Well, I could see keeping our present accuracy from 25,000ft and below. Give about a 50% chance to hit your mark from 25,000ft to 30,000ft. Make anthing above 30,000ft have about a 10% chance to hit.
This would get rid of the stratobuffs, yet it would not render buffs useless.
Sisu
-Karnak
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What Skurj and Karnak said.
Wilfrid
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The over curate bombing is a double edged sword for the bomber pilot though,
YES you can hit individual targets with great precesion ....BUT
If you wanna drop your whole load of bombs (which was FAR more commin that 1 at a time historically) then the accuracy is a nightmare.
when you drop all your bombs over a field they just make a straight line across it, doing little damage, in comparison
what SHOULD happen if you were drop 12 bombs from 20k+ they would land in and around the border of the field hitting lots of things sometimes and not many other times, but even the worst salvo drop (if on target) will produce far better results than a perfectly staright line of falling bombs. This also solves the problem of stratolanc tards picking off every hangar from 35k, insted they would just fly over and drop em all
(although 14 1k bombs would wreak havoc if even 2/3 of them landed randomly inside the perimiter of the field.)
Im just saying that HTC went through great pains making the fighter game so nice and yet left this HORRIBLE inaccuracy, I mean In know no fighter jock cares if a bombs fall accuratly but bomber pilots and i dont se why everyone say aaa "leave the bombers alone" WHY leave them alone you see people throw a fit if their fighter holds 20 rounds less than the historic load but yet totally ignore something this glaring. fighter folks look at it this way... what if you got in your fighter and no matter how hard you turne, dove, climbed or manuevered you fighter always maintained the EXACT same speed, would drive you nutts yes? well to a bomber the bomb is an extension of the plane itself so HTC PLEASE FIX THIS!
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TheWobble, another thing occured to me..
Your suggestion basically results in a much easier buff run than current. If the pilot knows that there is no point to even trying to aim, just make sure he's "in the ballpark" where is the skill? This is a game and needs playability, the is not real life (Ketten needs to pay attention to that last point)
More o my thots
SKurj
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Getting to the Taget is 99% of the difficulty, I.E. not getting shot down,
once over the target all you have to do is slew the crosshair over targets and drop which is SIMPLE. With the drift you would have to figure out how much drift apart the bombs are gonna have and aim the salvo according. there wouldent be much differece of the bomb run just a matter of how well you can choose your exact targets, with a well placed salvo you will most likley destroy as many targets as if you were aiming them all, its jsut that you dont know what they will be, which is more realistic. I mean in ww2 when bombers were flying over target its not like they were saying ok get that car, and that care and ooo oo get that guy on the bench. Even as a 99% buff pilot i am kinda discusted that 1 b-17 can totaly destroy a field. It should be able to put major hurt on a field but not to the point that not a single plane or aircraft can use it. I mean with a 12 bomb salvo (500's) if it were placed well you would probably hit a few acks and fuel and ammo or 2 and maby even kill a hangar. you would also tear the runway up some for sure which has a may not really stp anyone but itaking off wont be a cake walk for a while. and as far as playability what is so playable to having ww2 bombs that are more accurate that the newest most accurate laser guided bomb of today? might as well make the fighters shoot 4k and fly into space.
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...1 b-17 can totaly destroy a field...
I don't know why you think this, because it is simply not true. At most a B-17 can take out two hangars, and that is not always guaranteed. As for buffs being intercepted before making it to target - this isn't always true. Providing the Buff is above 20k, they will usually make it to target. Even if the B-17 is intercpeted, it's rarely attacked by more than a single fighter, which any half-decent gunner can kill 80% of the time.
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A friend whose busines it is once showed me a very good unclassified USAF video on the science of dropping bombs. I don't recall the title.
Perhaps Eagle might oblige?
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qts
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Hmmm lets see ,1 B17 carries 6000lbs of ordnance. We have 8-9 acks typically per field, 1 100lber per ack = 900lbs. 3 AC hangars at 3000lbs each, = 9000lbs. 1 vehicle Hangar at 2000lbs (i think). Ok now radar at the field 1 500lber.
Hmm thats around 12,400lbs, and that doesn't take into account the fuel tanks, ammo bunkers, and barracks.
A lanc cannot kill all that in 1 run I don't believe due to loadout restrictions with bomb types.
As a side note 4-5 F4uC's can level the same field much quicker. In fact 4-5 F4uC's can level HQ just as quickly.
AKSKurj
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Fek me you have no idea about playability compared to realism. Wobble if ya want so much realism mount a shotgun to your monitor when your AC is hit pull the trigger.
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Hmmm. I am all for:
- What TheWobble suggest.
- Plus, have a Norden alignement time (yes, like the *other* sim). Here is where Nav skills and maps come useful.
- Plus, revamp the runway & ground damage model. Craters and potholes should stay there a lot longer. Then carpet bombing should mean something. If you carpet bomb an airfield, not only destroyed hangars should hamper the airfield readyness, but also craters themselves would make taking off a lot riskier.
- I feel the blast radius of big eggs is not right. I think (no hard data tho) it should be way larger than it is now.
Cheers,
Pepe
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forget it wobble... these guys don't care how much animosity is currently directed at dedicated buffers so long as they can grab a buff once in a great while and destroy most of a field. The same guys who want ultra realistic fighter models want unrealistic buff results and modeling. What if they didn't have to lead any with their gunsites? just put the dot on the enemy fighter and pull the trigger.... I mean... They did have lead compensating gunsites right?
Oh well... there has allways been this imbalance in every sim.... let's not fix it now. How dare you even suggest that we do! What do you know about buffing in the game anyway?
lazs
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Im gonna assume that that comment "what do you know about buffing in a sim" is ment sarcasticaly seeing as how thats ALL I do here.
And how can anyone say it is fair that fighter get EVERYTHING I have seen some incredibly LAME whines about fighters, I.E. "such and such plane climbs 8 feet per min faster than in this sim" and of course there is a million posts of people pulling up all these stupid charts and crap.
And what pisses me off the most is the fact that the very thing everyone squeakes about buffs in this games is what i want fixed!
Jesus christ first you say "WWAAA buff studmuffins coming at 35k killing all our hangars and shutting down our field WAAA!!"
then I come in and say, "the bombers are to accurate, the bombs dont drift any so you cant hit targets too easyly why dont we make bombing more realistic so one buff cant shut down a field"
And then you say 'LEAVE BUFFS ALONE!
What in the hell is wrong with you people!
you complain about something and then when someone has a idea on how to fix it you squeak at them!
Torque? what the hell is YOUR problem?
DO you give a toejam about the bombs, NO then SHUT UP. Weather they are fixed or not it wont affect you. so why you gatta be an amazinhunk and post your stupid meingless comments?
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I think there is a lot of posts about buff accuracy & vulnerability in this BBS. If we are to get anything from Htc. first of all we should state the facts that wee agree upon. From what I read before, It seems to me there is a great degree of consensus in bombs blast radius. And there is lot of people who are of the opinion that the current pinpoint accuracy when buffing from +20k is nuts.
My point is, why don't we focus on these two things, ask for a solution, and let Htc work on it, if they so desire, intstead of angry, flaming posts? Or we agree on a list of things to be fixed in buff job, shoud it anything to be fixed at all?
Cheers,
Pepe
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Pepino,
I agree, its the only way thing will ever get done.
Ok if i had to pick 2 things it would have to day
1: lack any drift.
2: blast radius.
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More clouds and weather would possibly bring buffs lower at least +)
AKSKurj
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I know what you saying Wobble and in a way I agree.... but this is a game where there aren't another 20 bombers+ bombing the same target. If bombers are less accurate then there will just be far less people using them. Already with everyone getting more Jabo skills you are seeing a vast decrease of buffs in the MA. Four or five months ago you'd see loads and loads of buffs, but not now. So if you mess around with aiming then why bother using them? (BTW, I used to fly buffs a lot - check my tour stats from tour one onwards).
So, as it is now, if you go in at really high alt (17k+) then you have a good chance of making your target. Lower alt in a busy area then your odds drop a lot - defensive guns are nothing special when facing higher enemy fighters. We have a couple of tough buffs (JU88 and Lancaster) which make up for the lack of defensive armament, but the B17 and B26 are fairly easily killed due to their wings/tails coming off fairly easy.
So, I'd like to see more buffs in formation but I doubt we'll see that especially if bomb aiming is made more difficult! BTW, I would love to see lower clouds that's for sure! One of my all time favourite sorties was buffing through gaps in the clouds!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regards
'Nexx'
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Dang Nexx, I never thought about that..
I guess Your right about that one. It just bothers me to have them fall so straight and perfect from whatever alt, I know it makes for easier gameplay and such but it sure looks ugly, and I hate having to aim every bomb. I dont really care how accurate the sight is as long as the bombs will spread out a bit when ya drop them. I guess I have to admit it would make killing an entire field with 1 plane alot harder, but it is SO unrealistic the way it is now i could stand to make that sacrifice.
HOW ABOUT THIS.
make bomb dispersion a HOST option.
kinda like wind and manueverkill range.
.drift 0 = no drift (the way it is now)
.drift 1 = a drift of 1 foot per every 100 feet of fall... and so on.
That away the MA would remain the same unless enough people asked HT to change it and then on the H2H where lots of times there are say 1 bomber for every 3 fighters as opposed to 1 bomber for every 30 fighters.
I guess what I am saying is ok lets leave the MA alone but at least make it an option for H2H where bombers are WAY to powerful because their ratio to fighters is higher.
any thoughts?
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I forgot to mention...
Now, if the blast radius for a bomb was increased then yes they could introduce greater dispersion and I don't think anyone would be too annoyed if they did miss the target and still not do any damage. A 250lb bomb, let a lone a 1000lb bomb, has a large blast radius and perhaps in the future this could be incorporated at the expence of dispersion. BUT, still, people will still Jabo....
Regards
'Nexx'
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As a reference, a modern Mk.84 2,000lb bomb has a lethal blast radius of 400 feet.
Source Info (http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/0396_text.htm) is an article from www.thehistorynet.com (http://www.thehistorynet.com) about the F-117. In there somewhere is the reference to a Mk.84 2,000lb bomb.
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Whattaya mean I can't kill em? Why the hell not?!
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/behappy.jpg)
[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 11-25-2000).]
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The mechanics of bomb dropping isn't all that difficult to understand. The primary fault in the game's bomb implementation (last time I checked) is that the bombs are unaffected by gravity and drag. Any time you drop a real bomb, it's speed across the ground immediately begins to slow down due to it's ballistic arc, and the bomb either speeds up due to gravity or decelerates due to drag, based on the bomb shape and release speed. This results in the bomb hitting the ground somewhere behind the plane instead of directly underneath it, and this distance is called "bomb trail".
These effects weren't modelled the last time I checked, but they might be now. The last time I looked, if you dropped a bomb from level flight, it fell straight down and would impact directly below the plane instead of somewhere behind the plane. This makes modelling an accurate bombsight easy, and makes dive bombing harder and more hazardous since there is no bomb trail, so you're close to the frag pattern when the bomb explodes.
Since this is how it had been since the first WB version, it doesn't seem to be a design priority in the game. I personally would prefer that the bombs be affected by drag and wind, but I don't have to code up a dozen or so bomb flight models and then make a bombsight that is accurate for all of them either.
I learned "bomb ballistics 101" about 6 years ago, and it was done with slides, graphs, and short film clips. I don't have any of those materials anymore.
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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
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Eagl,
That would explain why the land exactly the same no matter what alt you are at. The thing that concerns me the most is the fact that they dont drift to the left or right either, thye always land in a perfectly straight line. That makes the bombers have to aim EVERY bomb and also make the super accurate, the combination of those 2 things make bombing pretty much annoying to everybody.
Bombers hate having to aim every single bomb, fighters hate having all their hangars destroyed in 1 pass.
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The perfectly straight line issue is different than whether the bombs fall realistically or not, because in the game, every aerodynamic shape and effect is "perfect".
If you drop 2 wingless spitfires from 20k, one after another, in the game they ought to hit exactly one after another because the aerodynamic forces applied to the planes is consistently applied. With bombs, the modelling is also consistently applied.
To add dispersion, what we need is for the bomb to "wobble" (hehe) randomly as it exits the bomb bay, simulating it passing through the turbulent air surrounding the bomber. The amount of wobble could be estimated by looking at some of those bomb bay films taken during WWII... In any case, add the slight initial wobble to the bomb's vector immediately as it leaves the aircraft, and bingo! The higher you are, the farther the bomb will stray from a perfect flight path because it started with a very very small difference in heading or dive angle. This would be similiar to what might happen if you drop a string now while pumping the stick, rudders, and throttle all at once during the drop. Try that out, and see if you get the dispersion you want (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
One other way HTC could add realism to the bomb drop, would be to apply the wind vectors to the bombs as they pass through the wind layers. That would definately affect bomb accuracy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Of course, game bomber pilots would scream bloody hell, because suddenly the norden wouldn't be worth crap unless you actually used math and wind estimates like real life navigators and bombadiers, and nobody would ever take the time to do that because it's not easy.
I still like the little wobble idea... Just a very small adjustment to the bomb's trajectory as it exits the bomb bay. The lower you are at the drop, the less this adjustment would have to the bomb's accuracy. Think of it as dispersion for bombs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Someone pass this along to HT and Pyro if ya like it...
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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
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I think that bomb drift should be implemented one of two ways.
1: make it a host option, host can set weather there is bomb drift, and how much
.drift 0 (none)
.drift 1 (1 foot drift per every 200 feet fallen)...and so on
2. (the one i favor) make it an individual option, if a player wants his bombs to drift he can do the .drift option without anyone else having to use it too, that way everybody is happy. some like drift some dont, use whatever ya want thats it.
Thoughts?
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I thinke eagl's idea is awsome.
would love to see the bombs falling out of the bay wobble to give a tiny bit of randomness to bombs vector.
very cool
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Citabria,
I like it too, because that is how it ACTUALLY was. now if we could only get the idea past the screen of "leave buffs alone" people. Do you think it should be stardard or an host or player option?
since its the way it really was i think it should be implemented totally but alot of people dont care if its real or not and they like it the way it is so i would like to see it as a player option. Iy you want your bombs to wobble you can make them if you want them to fall like they do now you can be a dweeb and have that to... I see a new title evolving
"Lazerbomb Dweeb"
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you would have to be on crack to not want eagls idea implemented.
the only question is how slight should the effect be?
the buff driver would have somthing new to decide on those long buff trips...
do I go stratospheric and use extra bombs per target to get hits or do I take my chances at a lower altitude to maintain accuracy? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
its an additional decision to add to the buff pilots flight planning.
if the goal is a more interesting and realistic simulation, anything that increases the variables of the outcome of the mission is highly desirable.
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Cit,
You would be amazed at how many people who just dont care about the bombs and squeak and whine because they are afraid that if HTC fixes that they will somehow overlook fixing something for fighters. I think It should be implemented aswell but if you read this thread you will notice many people wanting it to stay the same for some reason... als check out the thread "lets make bombing a skill again" there too i introduced the idea of having the bombs fall accuratly and alot of people jumped up my bellybutton about it "leave buffs alone" and what not. I wrote HTC an E-mail about it but they havent responded. I would love nothing more than to see this fixed..
As far as how much wobble...hmmmm
well at 9k you should be able to hit aa and such with 2 bombs or so.. at 15k it gets hard to even pinpoint hangars. bombs spread even more..at 20k you could dump your whole load ant it would land all over the field and kill random stuff, that way the stratobuffers (25k+) would have to stick to city killing if they want to fly that high.
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It's a good idea, but you would see even fewer buffs.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Dispersion = fine fer scenarios
Lazer dweeb bombs = perfect for MA where dispersion would make buffs extinct with the exception of TheWobble i guess.... ooops no he's in H2H...
AKSKurj
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SKURJ,
thats what im saying its good for h2h and for anyone else who gives a crap if it looks and responds like its supposed to, but in the MA some people might not like it,
Thats why it should be an option, player can turn it on or off. Or host can force one or the other. I know not everyone wants them realistic, some people like them totally unrealistic, I just want to have the option to have bombs that are at least somewhat realistic in their behavior.
I mean lets face it, the only way they could be less realistic than they are now is if the fell UP.
In other words, If you want realistic bomb dispersal you can have it, if you want lazer bombs, thats fine too.. there everybody happy. Thats the bottom line isnt it, make the masses happy? Im not proposing anything that would detract from ANYTHING in ANY WAY!
There is much to gain and NOTHING to lose from just fixing this. those who dont want bomb dispersal wont even know it exists, thos who want it have it.. there ya go.
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Originally posted by TheWobble:
Cit,
You would be amazed at how many people who just dont care about the bombs and squeak and whine because they are afraid that if HTC fixes that they will somehow overlook fixing something for fighters. I think It should be implemented aswell but if you read this thread you will notice many people wanting it to stay the same for some reason... als check out the thread "lets make bombing a skill again" there too i introduced the idea of having the bombs fall accuratly and alot of people jumped up my bellybutton about it "leave buffs alone" and what not. I wrote HTC an E-mail about it but they havent responded. I would love nothing more than to see this fixed..
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Sorry Wobbly but the post above dragged my bellybutton back into this discussion.
I have nooo idea where you get the idea that some of us are afraid attention spent on buffs would mean the fighters might suffer. I don't want to see an arena where the buff doesn't exist. Dispersion is the end of buffs. Host selectable, fine (outside of the MA), user selectable, fine!! (tho we know how many will actually use this in the MA).
Adding selectable dispersion I am all for, so long as it stays out of the MA where it would be a GROSS mistake.
I've been around arena sims for a few years now and I've yet to fly in a scenario that required pinpoint bombing. Dispersion works with formations of buffs which would be an excellent addition for scenarios.
You talk of realism for your bomb drop, how real is it to be a lone b17, or ju88 for that matter, bombing anything? In RL it was a waste of resources, a waste of lives, and a waste of time.
Oops ok well the Japanese did send a lone bomber over the western US lol, he firebombed a forest... and failed..
AKSKurj
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LOL, Skurg (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
leave tha japs alone..LLOL
I want it as an option because believe it or not it can be alot more effective than ya might think, flying over a base at 15k and dumping 12 500 pounder can be a very devistationg hit, although i must admit that the pinpoint aim every bomb way it is now will USUALLY do more damage. What im getting at is dont think that making the bombs disperse would be a purly asthetic fix.. it can be very useful when attacking vehicles.
try hitting a moving osti or m-3 or even a panzer with a b-26, if they are rolling so you have to lead them and the way the bombs fall if you drop more that 1 they just land in a row which doesent add any hit probablilty. With some bomb drift you could take off in a 26 will 20 100 pounders and if there is a rolling vehicle you can drop a fast salvo of 5 bombs and aimed where you would have to aim 1 before and they would have a MUCH larger footprint. I know 100's are small bombs but having 5 land all around ya will usually either kill yer gun or your treads, then you are an easy target and mission accoplished, ALSO dropping many small bombs (250/100 pounds) over an air base might not kill much but it will pepper the runway pretty bad and that can play hell with planes taking off, especally bombers.
My main reason for wanting it is because even though i do more damage the way it is now its just too far from realism to really be fun. I think it should be a player option since it doesent give any unfair advantage why shouldent anyone who wants it b able to use it use it? I really doubt this being an option will effect how many folks fly bombers, if anything it will add players since it looks so cool.
And as far as the comment about some folks not wanting it fixed because they think it will take away from fixing something else, i have never seen it posted but several times while flying id mention it and someone says something like "dont waste time on buffs, fix something important"
Im no programmer, but i doubt it would take much work to fix the bombs.
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I'm no bomb ballistics expect, and dinnae make any claims to be, so I'll not delve too deeply into this discussion.
However, I do love to watch the history channel, especially when they're running WWII stuff.
Now maybe it's just these aging eyes, or maybe it's the lack of sleep newborn twins cause, but in the shows on the history channel every time I see a stick of eggs explode after being dropped they're in a pretty straight line. None of this 300ft left-200ft back, next 500ft forward-150ft right mess.
I also seem to recall another discussion on this topic where some of the more educated in this realm checked in and said that the windlayers actually wouldna affect the bombs path that much, though I guess I could be remembering wrong.
Now, as to the dispertion affects....
You give me 300 more B17s flying on my wing in a nice formation, all dropping on the same target I drop on, and dropping on the leader, I'm all for it. What you're overlooking is that this is playability issue.
And while the front end option for disperstion sounds attractive, is there enough interest in it to make it worthwhile. The short and simple answer is no. That means the dev time it would take to create that option for the few dedicated buff drivers would take away from the dev time for something else that would garner the interest to make it worthwhile, like new kites and the navy.
And I can speak as a dedicated buff driver when I say leave the buffs alone. While I dinnae have much time in then in the later tours, check my buff stats in the first tours, including the beta tours (214CaveJ in beta).
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A lot actually depends upon how the bombs are actually dropped - the design of the carriage is rather important. Not only is the aim to get the maximum amount of ordnance on target but also to safeguard the plane - bombs are aerodynamic, and you definitely don't want them hitting each other shortly after being dropped (oops!) or flying back up into the plane (mega-oops!!). Anyway, being dropped properly makes all the difference between the bombs going all over the place and the bombs hitting the target in the optimal pattern.
So we can just assume that our bombadier is dropping them properly.
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Caveman,
Gee sorry to think that anyone would waste their time to fix something SO OBVIOUS as bombs that fall completely without the slightest bit of realism, it must be more important to cater to the squeakes and whines about a certin fighter climbing 2 feet per min slower that it is supposed to or some toejam like that. I still cant believe how everybody will nitpick this piddley little crap that you have to be some kind of aeronautics engineer to even notice. Yet completely ignore something so obvious as a falling object. i mean christ they land the EXACT, EXACT DAMMIT same way from 40000 feet as they do from 200 that is total horse toejam.
there could be no bigger of a "playability issue" as you call it than that! I just want this whoopee option to make the game better, noone who would suffer from it and many would benifit, I know nobody else argues the bomb issue, you know why? because all the fighter pukes toejam on them because they think that if HTC takes the time to fix something that doesent directly benifit them then that is just time wasted that should be spent fixing all this stupid little crap that people whine about on fighters, i mean JESUS CHRIST LOOK AT THE BOARD! people post all these whoopee charts ans toejam about climb and turn rates and how they arent EXACTLY right and how they need to fix it and every body agrees yea fix it, even me and i dont even fly a fighter i want people to be happy as much as anyone. but sure mention the grossly undermodeled bombs and waht do ya get? a big collective diddly YOU!
No wonder there are so few people who will argue for the bombers THEY ARE TIRED OF GETTING PISSED ON!
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QTS,
I dont care how "properly" you drop them there is no way the 12 bombs dropped from 40000 would land in a perfectly straight line, I mean fly a bomber and see for yourself.
Get 20 100 pounders in a b-26 and fly to 30k and drop them all in salvo of say .07
then do the same from 200 feet. They will land EXACTLY the same, now to me thats just kinda retarded, especally in a game that prided it self of accuratly modeled aircraft and such.
BTW, all the info i post about bombers and falling bombs come straight from my grandfather, he was a ball turret gunner. I dont think there is a better source as to how bombs in ww2 fell than that.
here are the conditions you would need to make real bombs fall the way the one's in AH do.
1. no wind whatsoever,
2. no air resistance whatsoever.
3. no type of any kind of friction.
4.bombs that are identicle down to the molecular level.
The thing thats funny is that given only 1 of those conditions planes wouldent even be able to fly, nothing would. Oh and ya couldent walk either cause there is no friction.
WOW what a realistic combat sim.
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Wobble, just a few observations.
If one has to resort to profanity to "win" and argument....one loses.
Sometimes it pays to step back and re-evaluate, particularly if it sometimes seems a one-man crusade. It doesn't necessarily mean the point is not valid. It may indeed mean that the vast majority of the group does not share the same urgency or concern about the subject.
Also, please take a moment and consider "bomb drop" as a small part of a large game. Given the nature of a multi-player Main Arena and the struggle to implement any strategic bombing activities in such an environment, is bomb modeling a MAJOR problem in game play? (Not realism please...game play),
Lastly, I'm sure HTC has noted your argument and I'm willing to bet it's on the list of things to look into. However, please be a little considerate when demanding immediate changes. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of players and many of them have suggested improvements to HTC. HTC themselves have ideas on where the game needs to go and what needs doing next.
I am sympathetic to your arguments although I feel no special urgency in the matter. The present system works in the present game environment. As the game environment and strategy become more complex, I'm sure bomb models will become more complex as well. I support that.
However, when you unleash a tirade like the one just above....you pretty much lose my support entirely. Four letter flourishes do not make an argument more effective.
Thanks for your consideration!
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Tell ya what wobble...
You take your B-17G
clean it up and shine it up real nice
and I mean really shine all the brightwork til it gleams
then you turn that sucker sideways and...
well.. I'm sure you know the rest.
Before you get all high and mighty with me you need to go back read what I wrote. You have given me the impression that you took my post to be a personal attack on you. I hate to rupture that infantile ego of yours, but I was merely speaking in generalization of what one should realistically expect from a BUSINESS. That's right, HiTech Creations, Inc is a business. And businesses are in business to make money. And when decision time rolls around they have to at least glace at the bottom line. This where the adage "The needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the few (or the one)" applies. Sorry mate, but this particular item falls into the catagory of the few or the one.
How many of the casual buff drivers are going to take the time to climb to altitude if they can't hit what they're aiming at? Remember, while we're simulating WWII aerial combat, it's still just a game, something to have fun with while passing the time.
Like I said, I'm all for realism. Give me 300 more B17s flying good formations off my wing and then this dispertion you keep clamoring about might gain more support.
BTW, My granddad was a B24 pilot, left seat, and 2nd in command of his squadron. I'm sure half the folks here have relatives or have friends who had relatives flying/on buffs in the war. Dinnae make any of experts on how bombs drop mate.
And I see you chose to not comment on the films they run on the History channel. Where's your vaunted dispersion in those lines of bombs exploding? Maybe a little variation left and right of the path, but they're dropped from the left and ride side of the bombbays. ::shrug::
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CavemanJ
CO, The Wrecking Crew
"Airpower is a thunderbolt launched from an egg shell invisibly tethered to a base."
--Hoffman Nickerson
To close with and destroy the enemy by use of fire, manuever, and shock effect
Know Fear - Have Twins
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Originally posted by TheWobble:
Dang Nexx, I never thought about that..
I guess Your right about that one. It just bothers me to have them fall so straight and perfect from whatever alt, I know it makes for easier gameplay and such but it sure looks ugly, and I hate having to aim every bomb. I dont really care how accurate the sight is as long as the bombs will spread out a bit when ya drop them. I guess I have to admit it would make killing an entire field with 1 plane alot harder, but it is SO unrealistic the way it is now i could stand to make that sacrifice.
HOW ABOUT THIS.
make bomb dispersion a HOST option.
kinda like wind and manueverkill range.
.drift 0 = no drift (the way it is now)
.drift 1 = a drift of 1 foot per every 100 feet of fall... and so on.
That away the MA would remain the same unless enough people asked HT to change it and then on the H2H where lots of times there are say 1 bomber for every 3 fighters as opposed to 1 bomber for every 30 fighters.
I guess what I am saying is ok lets leave the MA alone but at least make it an option for H2H where bombers are WAY to powerful because their ratio to fighters is higher.
any thoughts?
Hey wobble, like your idea of
".drift 0 = no drift (the way it is now)
.drift 1 = a drift of 1 foot per every 100 feet of fall... and so on."
Just a side note: There where 2 types of bombings Carpet and Inline.
Inline: bombs dropped in a straight line and hitt the target in a straight line.
Carpet: bombs dropped scattered in a straight line (flight of the bomber).
With using wobbles idea you could fly (let's say) 2 bombers. The 1st one inline bombing and if the target was missed to the right he could radio the 2nd bomber and tell him "aim XX amount to the left of the target.
Anyway I'm on your side wobble!
Pokie
P.S Good island map. Just been keeping an eye on you in the terrain form. Getting and info possible. Trying to learn to built maps myself. Haven't took the time to study the terrain editor enough. They should have had a section for me in it.
Building Terrains for Dummies!
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WTF are you guys complaining about???
Here's proof that there is nothing wrong with the bombs I'm carrying, accuracy? Who cares!?!
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/Nuclear.jpg)
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LOL! (rip)
Well I know that the majority of people dont fly buffs, but thats no real reason to totaly trash the bombs, for the few that DO fly bombers, dropping the bombs is the Apex of their whole flight. I mean to fly all that way and then drop bombs that have no real modeling at all, no wonder not many people fly buffs. Would you fly your fighter if when it came time to fire there was no muzzle flash and no damage modeling on the other plane no smoke no flying parts, nasty little yellow tracers, I doubt you would get much fun out of that..see my point?
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No, wobble, I don't.
Thought you left?
Anyway, when one drops an AH bomb, there is flash, there is smoke, there is damage and flying parts.
For what appears to be the huge majority of buff pilots, that is enough.
For what appears to be an incredibly small minority of buff pilots, there seems to be a "lack of realistic dispersion." For <ahem> one of these folks, it seems to ruin the game, to the point of canceling the account.
As I said above, I'm sure HTC has made note of this and if they deem it a worthy change (worth the programming time) they'll put it in the "revision table" and eventually it will get done.
Until then, I guess I'll just keep playing.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I was never in a "DO IT NOW" state of mind, i was just posting a "fix it" post like everyone else. I dont care if it is fixed RIGHT now, i would just like the problem addressed whenever they get to it. And i also think that if they made bomb drift an option and a few people tried it they would find it very appealing, of course its not for everyone, but what is?
What Im getting at about the dispersion crap is that inaccuratly modeled bombs for buffers is no less annoying inaccurate bullet ballistics would be for fighters, as far as "a minority of buffers caring about it" there are like 10 times more fighter pilots than buff pilots ( and thats a VERY modest guess) so of course your not going to see nearly as many posts. what i was getting at in my last post was that when the one thing the planes is designed to do isnt modeled right (or at all) it takes away from the whole flight. I dont want to press the whole bomb drift thing on everybody by no means, that is why i would like it to be a player/host forcable option. You like ya dont like fine, ya can have either. I know it probably wont be put in soon but i think it is a worthy addition in time. And dont call me picky, I mean look at some of the other posts about modeling and such, for example.
"Explain me this coefficient of drag on P47 and F4"
I dont even know what that really means!
my point there is that everyone else seems to be interested in MAX realism, yet when i mention the totally unmodelled bombs, i get cold shoulder. All i want is what all you fighter jocks all ready have REALISM.
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All i want is what all you fighter jocks all ready have REALISM.
Read more threads (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Seen daisy cutters, 2k FAE ,2k's , 1k's , #750's, 500 FAE's , #500's , #250's, 16", 8" , 5" ,430mm , 310mm , 220mm , 125mm , 120mm , 105mm , 90mm ,80mm, 61mm , 40mm, m79 ,rpg2 , m72 m26 , rocks,"chi-poppers",c4,c3,tnt,kinpks,dtcrd, tank flip 360 in the air under 1k's ,rail cars into confetti by #750's , never seen a open gun position or tin shed(hanger) live through a 1k or even a #500 dropped on it or right next to it. Remember what a puny little SCUD did way back when? or what a little truck full of weedfeed did in Ok city? Seems the ord in this game more like water-balloons.(excuse me I meant "sim") How about giving em more "punch" and less accuracy, lets face it you can drop a 1k next to a plane taking off and it might as well just be a bug hitting the windscreen....worthless. Hell , 1/2# of tnt the size of a small soup can can destroy ANY car.
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good point carl, maby that why they made them so accurate? although it would be kinda bad to try to fix one inaccurate model by killing another...I mean people keep saying do this to fix do that to fix..All ya got to do is make it REALISTIC to fix, not anything else.
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May I stick my neck out here on a different aspect of the bomb issue?
As an Osty that has been feed more than my fair share of Iron Pills....
1. I know this would hit frame rates, but I'd certainly like to see a fabulous blast and mushroom cloud...I mean, we have glorious damage models on the bombers and fighters. If you wound a ground vehicle with a bomb, we don't know it until we check the damage report.
2. How about a thunderous BOOM, I mean, these things must make a helluva bang, right?
I'm just a little disappointed that if someone throws a bomb at you, a crater magically appears. I'd expect one helluva blast, with the appropriate graphics and sound.
The real *high* for me with the bombs is jumping in the B-17, drop bombs and go into the ball turrent and watch the bombs hit..that's really the only explosions you see.
Sorry if this wanders slightly off topic.
Paul
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This is a great topic! I can't take sides on the matter because I see many good points on both sides (accuracy vs. realism). IMHO I would think that data on bomb range/deflection from various alts in RL could be modeled into the game BUT offset by taking into consideration the number of bombERs actually participating in a raid in the game as opposed to the numbers that did so in WWII. There is a happy medium I would think, except for the lone buff pilot looking to hit every target he pickles on dead center. In other words, up the effectiveness of blast range a tad, lower the precision quite a bit and leave it to a programer to find the middle line.
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I think it was Jane's F-15 that tackled something like this nicely...
You could install (and play) in Easy Mode or the higher, and harder, Realism Mode.
Perhaps, the default setup in Aces could be Easy Mode, and if those of us that want to crank in more realism can select such an option...
Just a reach to try to please both parties.
Paul
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Common misconception:
Pickle barrel bombing in WWII.
Actual reason for lack of pickle barrel precision was not the bombsight, or the wind, or the slight imperfections of the bomb casing, it was because of the difficulty of navigation and cloud cover over target, as well the problems with identifying the actual IP and target.
In perfect conditions(like we have in AH), the norden was capable of pretty damn good accuracy, definitely in the pickle barrel range.
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Pickel barrel is one thing, the way it is now you can put it in a shot glass. I know there arnt many bombers In MA but I like to fly H2H alot too and with just 1 bomber on a team there it can be DEVESTATING. thats why i think you should be able to set "drift" if you are the host. I.E. if you want the drift perfect and goofy like it is. You type say.. .drift 0 (0 drift) if you want a little drift type .drift 1 (drift of 1 foot for every 100 feet fallen) and so on and so on, that way the playes and hosts can choose and everyone can be happy. hell why not make it a player option, if you want yer bombs to drift you can have it if not you can have the lazer bombs, having drift certinly wouldent give any advantage so just let people pick, that way everybody happy. I dont know about anyone else but to me the Apex of flying a bomber is dropping the bombs and when its not modeled right (or at all) it really kills it for me.