Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: eskimo on November 19, 2000, 05:22:00 PM
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In Tour 9 the vehicle spawn points were much closer than they had been in previous tours. This lead to many complaints that AH had turned into too much of a ground vehicle sim. In Tour 10 we are seeing much less G.V.s. Depending on your preference, close spawn points can make our game better or worse. We are all bound to disagree on this issue, with good arguments on both sides.
After contemplating a compromise for this problem, I came up with the Messerschmitt 323 Gigant solution. (A giant 6 engine German transport capable of hauling 120 troops or a ground vehicle. Later variants had a variety of defensive guns, including 20mm turrets)
The Messerschmitt 323 would allow G.V. lovers to haul ground vehicles anywhere on the map in a reasonable amount of time. Currently tankers are usually very limited in their choice of targets. Long boring drives are usually the only option for tankers. For game-play purposes, I think most everyone would enjoy the new dimension that the Gigant would add to this sim. Tankers could get wherever they want in a reasonable amount of time, and the anti-ground vehicle types would have a new, big, slow target to hunt for. Kill a Gigant or it's parasite, and the driver has at least a 10 minute flight back to the field that you are defending. The Gigant driver would also be extremely venerable during landing and ground vehicle deployment.
With a top speed of 150 MPH, the Gigant would be the easiest AC to intercept in this sim.
It had a 180 foot wingspan, even the worst shots could land hits on this flying hotel.
Perhaps the code could be written so that tankers could even drive back to their Gigants, after attacking their targets, get back in the cockpit and fly home! (Kill an unmanned/parked Gigant, and you get a few points, no kill.)
Long drive spawn points could be kept for vehicle fields, and Gigants could also be launched from A.F.s with operational bomber and vehicle hangers.
The Messerschmitt 323 could be an alternative troop transport, perhaps carrying 20 or 30 troops, capable of multiple field captures per sortie, or overwhelming a lightly defended field with an abundance of troops.
After running a search I found a great thread, in the Aircraft and Vehicles Forum, by qts that discussed the Gigant and many of the issues that I have mentioned. Check it out, it has a cool picture and I bumped it to the top of the forum. I think, however, that the Messerschmitt 323 idea belongs in Gameplay feedback/issues as much as it does in Aircraft and Vehicles and it also needed to be re-visited.
eskimo
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Couldn't agree more eskimo. The 323 Gigant is a natural for the arena. So who cares if it couldn't carry a Panzer in real life?
Dump the spawn points and vehicle fields. Just allow a pilot to load up a Gigant with a Panzer/M16/Ostwind etc and transfer to the vehicle after the Gigant has landed.
Imagine flying along in your Uber-Hog.. glancing down and seeing the 7th Panzer Division flying along in 10 Gigant's below you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Do the words 'target rich environment' sound familiar? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Punt...PuntPunt...PuntPuntPun tPuntPunt!!!!
Punt
PuntPuntPunt
PuntPuntPuntPunt!!!!
Want that now !
GREAT IDEA! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I was wondering that too Jekyll,
I am not sure about whether or not it could carry a Panzer.
"Warplanes of the Third Reich" (Green) said that the original glider version (ME-321 A-1/B-1) could "...could accommodate a PzKW IV".
No mention about specific loadouts for the powered variants, but they could carry between 21,000 to 40,000 pounds. The cargo hold of the glider was 36' 1" long by 10' 4" wide by 10' 10" tall. It looks as if the powered variants had the same cargo hold.
Does anyone know for sure if the Panzer 4 or Ostwind would/did fit into a Gigant? I don't even have a clue as to the size or weight of the Panzer IV.
Whether it could carry a Panzer or not is mute, however. It would indeed be great addition for gameplay purposes.
eskimo
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I have the Me 321 listed as being able to carry 21,380 kg when being towed by 3 Me 110's.
The Me 323 only 9,760 kg. Weight being taken up by the six engines and the 10,740 litres fuel I guess.
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OK,
A little problem here;
The Panzer IV H weighs 25,000 KG
or 49,000 #.
That would be 9,000 # too much for even the greatest lifters of the ME-323 variants.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Still could be fudged for the sake of gameplay though.
eskimo
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You have to take into account that max lifting weight is for bulk cargo, not maximum load.
It, and the Junkers wing were both designed around being able to carry the Panzer IV chassis. Amoung other heavy loads The structural strength is there. I've never seen any concrete evidence as to how such a chassis was loaded (as discussed in the other thread) but I believe the whole nose section (including the cabin) was removed. The hold was longer then the entrance.
It's kind of a moot point though, because I've never seen where they actually carried an operational Mk IV chassis (25 tons, 2.9m wide) I have seen an account where five bare bones frame was carried, but this is without the turrent ring, or treads and road wheels. A much lighter load.
This does open up possibilites of such tanks as the Pz-38, and the SPW HT's.
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Btw that's not five chassis in the same aircraft.
I'll look into it, but I'm almost sure it was capable of carrying the earlier Mark IV chassis. F2 and the close support versions only weighed 22 tons. (and even less without fuel and ammunition, and crew) But the plane crew and riggins would more then counter that relieved weight.
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Some #'s for you all to ponder,
Stugeschutz IIIG 24tons
Pzkfw IV F2 23.2 tons
Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzer 15.t tons
King Tiger 68.6tons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hetzer is looking good and would be a great addition.
Also I am sure any of the German PSW series would fit,like a Puma, or a PSW 234/1.
It can also be said that at one time or another this plane carried just about any item in the German inventory that it's caring capacity would allow for.They were used in all theaters for resupply,and were built up until spring 44.
Brady
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Arguments for/against the plane using historical usage can be answered by asking how many fully automated computer controlled AAA emplacements were in use during the war (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Seriously, given the 3 side war and unrestricted planeset, I think gameplay has already taken priority over historical accuracy. Take that as a given, and aerial vehicle and large scale troop transport might make sense if it adds to gameplay.
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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
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PUNT
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Punt punt ...
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punt
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I give this idea a thumbs up for gameplay. It would really add a new dimension to tanks. Besides, could be disabled for Historical events easily.
Jarbo
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Neat idea Skimo....hope it gets appropriate attention.
RAS
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I like the idea. It will also be nice to have it ready for the day when base resupply comes.
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I like it!....A lot! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I LIKE IT!
I wouldnt push for realism on this plane. Its slow, its big, let it carry up to 4 vehicles (have the vehicles up from VH, drive to the giant and then be the gunners on that giant while it flies.. when it lands a .dot command like ".deploy <playername>" from the gunner would smack the gunner into his tank and off he drives out of the giant).
Or something.
But please, do allow a big, slow plane to transport GV's across long distances.
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punt
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This is a great idea. I love the air to ground war. This would be a way to expand it.
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PUNT !!
Yea this is a GREAT idea !!!! and AFAIK no sim EVER modelled it !
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IL-2:
(http://www.bluebyte.net/il2-e/products/graphics/shots/il2_101.jpg)
(http://www.bluebyte.net/il2-e/products/graphics/shots/il2_102.jpg)
(http://www.bluebyte.net/il2-e/products/graphics/shots/il2_103.jpg)
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<BIG PUNT> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Oooo there she is. Cool. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Now we need an He 111Z-1 to tow the glider version.
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And lo' did'st thou ask, and so shall thy receiveth.
(http://www.bluebyte.net/il2-e/products/graphics/shots/il2_02.jpg)
And the Creator looked at his creation and saw that it was good.
The Book of Maddox the 2nd Chapter.
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Cool! Yep gotta have them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)