Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: brady on November 21, 2001, 01:23:00 PM
-
I know it has been said a thousand time by as many people but when I see one P 47 diving on a cv and he kills it it ticks me off :)
-
U 2. I Hate suicide bombers in the MA all U ever see is suicide bombers, B17s diving in or JU88s diving in or P51Ds or P47s or now Mossys standing on nose and diving in and crashing into the deck, or my favorite was the Knight horde of 6 planes that dove in on the CV all died and they all missed the CV. Should be some kinda penelty or some loss of perks.
Hodo
-
Well..I never go attacking a CV expecting to live through the hail of ack.
Then again I've never hit the damn thing anyway :)
-
Just wait till a pilot can control four Lancs, B17's or B26's ;)
See CV...nose over .... drop! Oh my 40 plus 1,000 lbers hdg for the ole flat top! yeeeee haaaaaa
Westy
<g,d,rlh...>
-
or a b26,b17,lancaster coming in at 7k flying straight trough the ack and deliver the load on cv, then turning back landing on base without damage lol (ok 1 eninge on fire maybe).
airguard
-
It is quite possible to dive in on a CV and drop bombs and hit it and survive just dont do that pull out at 3k or less crap. Before the hostile shores event I read a article on high alt dive bombing from 20k release at 9-12k and hit target, I practiced and I practiced untill after about 100 trys I got it right no I am about 70% accurate with it in the F6F and the P47D models but every plane is different in a dive I suggest you practice it to.
Hodo
-
during hostile shores I was tasked with flying 190f8s and ordered to dive bomb a cv.]
A 190f8 alone wont sink I cv but I could hit it easy and get out of the ack most of the time. U just need to start your dive higher up and release ord higher then roll into a shallow dive away from the ack.
It takes practice to determin the amount of lead but it can be done. I made 3 190f8 attacks in the main and sank the nme cv and rtbd safe.
but like anything else folks go for instant gratification rather then have any interest in taking their toime.
An example of this is yesterday I was on the rearm pad when a guy came barreling and killed me and either died from ack or augered, instant kill for him. But it was a small field and only 5 ack left up 2 of them manned guns. He could of easily strafed the ack dwn and vulched his arse off. Ah but fek 1 fer 1 is just as fun :rolleyes:
-
Want to keep your CV? CAP it. Want to use it as an almighty flak field and 5"+ battleship to kill a land based airfield but DONT want to protect it? Gimme a break.
Its almost as if the "suicide" planes coming in dont come in low (around 10k), heavy and slow (300mph or less).
But no one wants to cap the CV, since the furball is OVER the enemy field. Tough luck, your cv died. 3 or 4 planes can effectively cap the CV. give it a try, you get easy kills.
-
S!
It is true that it is quite easy to kill a CV or Cruiser with a single fighter bomber with 2 1000lb bombs. I have done it quite a few times, and usually I survive. Personally I prefer a Typhoon because they climb better and have better speed with two bombs, but a Hellcat or Corsair will do too. A P-47 takes too long to get up to 10,000 ft, which is the best height to start your dive.
I know all you guys are complaining about this because it seems unfair that a single plane can screw up 2 hours of moving a CV into position...
Well, learn to live with it. ;)
Historically ships were extremely vulnerable to aircraft attacks. There are literally hundreds of instances which can be pointed to of a few aircraft sinking huge ships.
The real problem is the bozos in the MA who create a course for a TG that parks it on the beach in front of the enemy Airfield, then don`t bother to put up any AIRCAP over the CV. Plus they don`t bother to maneuver the TG when an enemy aircraft appears.
Big surprise when their nice aircraft carrier goes end up and slides into the drink lickity split.
The first responsibility for someone commanding a TG is to make sure they are CAPing it. Jump into a F6f or a Corsair, even a Zeke with some alt. can do the job against a heavily loaded fighter bomber.
I was on the MA the other day, when someone sent a TG right in close. There was no CAP to speak of, just a bunch of aircraft down low furballing off the field which was the target. I got into a F6f and climbed to 10k. (needed to get up quick, otherwise I would have taken a F4UD) Over the next 20 minutes I got 6 or so kills of heavy Corsairs or F6f`s or P-38`s which were trying to take out the CV. There were also a bunch of planes killed down low which were trying torpedo runs. I got a couple Ju88s. If the TG hadn`t been so close to the enemy field it might have survived, but a combination of Shore battery fire and a Corsair which got through to drop a couple eggs did it in.
If you are going to take a TG into harm`s way, then make sure you got the CAP to protect it. In my opinion, a couple Corsairs up high, (this is where the C-Hog would shine) would take care of any problems.
After you got the CAP in place, then start to think about launching TBM`s and heavy Fighters to take out the target. Or if there is nothing showing in the DAR bar, then launch your first strike, then put up CAP for the inevitable response which will come when the opposing side spots the heavy numbers showing up at the target base.
-
Every now and then someone will provide CAP for the CV. Every now and then we get the SB's killed before assaulting a field. Every now and then someone will take over CAP duties as the first CAP lands to rearm. Every now and then we can get things moving toward shutting down a field with the Task Group, launching LVT's, defensive PT's, and even JABO defense against opposing PT's.
But, all it takes is one skilless turd with two eggs diving into the carrier deck, or one wave top turd flying headlong into ack and the CV's waterline, and the CV is dead.
I don't think you can point to one event in WWII where a CV died to a single fighter.
Still, I wonder why these same turds don't just fly an Arado? You come in at 10k, drop one ship length in front of CV, and then you fly home. I've done it at least fifty times this tour and died only twice (one 262 got me fair and square after his CV died, one 152 caught me pre-strike while I was AFK).
Manning the defensive guns I can tell you one thing I've noticed. It's the same skilless guys time-after-time. After all, the reason they dive into the carrier deck is they can't hit it otherwise.
-
May I point out here that kamikaze attacks were feared by the US fleet in the Pacific in WW2. Why? Because they were effective and were used a lot.
Game mimics life...
-
Ships sink when bombs hit them.
It's part of the game.
Get over it.
eskimo
-
S!
Actually the most unrealistic aspect of the game is allowing level bombers like the Arado, B-17 or B-26 hit CV`s from 10,000 or even 20,000 ft.
IT DIDN`T HAPPEN. ;)
The U.S. quickly realized these type of attacks were useless, never hit anything and taught their bomber pilots how to skip bomb from 500 ft. (there were even some instances of B-17`s down on the deck skip bombing)
On the other hand, the issue of the Jabo and/or Dive bomber hitting a ship is well documented. The dive bombers were much more accurate, due to their dive brakes giving them more time to line up the target, but fighters also did the job.
A Me109F, (yes, an Me109F) carrying a 1000lb egg, dive bombed a British Cruiser off Crete during that battle and sent it to the bottom.
After a while, in the Pacific, the USN didn`t bother to field any TBM`s or Helldivers on their CV`s... The Hellcats and Corsairs could do just as good a job.
There should be a little more bomb drift on dropped eggs, but at the same time, the laser flak is too lethal, at least the high alt stuff. The small calibre guns should be lethal in close.
-
brady never said a bomb shouldn't sink a cv.
The reading comprehension of most folks reading this board amazes me.
Brady is talking about "suicidal dweebs" who make no effort to survive and go out of their way to kill themselves.
of course a cv should be sinkable but with there being no expectation to rtb for these folks its just dweeby.
Voss is right that a buff can do it(which is unreal as the suicidals) but a jabo attack can be made against a cv and you can survive. Yes its "harder" and may take more then 1 attempt. Even with cap a p38/p47 hell bent on killing himself will sink the cv.
But this "suicidal attitude" is practiced time and time again over different targets.
Theres nothing that HTC can do. Even uppin the strength of the cv wont stop umm. CV are worthless imho outside defending their own port.
If your incapable of following the topic of a thread start your own.
[ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: Wotan ]
-
If you think about it, why do people kamikaze on a cv?
1)CV tracer A-A is singleping kill. Dive on it and try to drop bombs from 6k or lower (to at least get a marginal chance at hitting), the tracer ack is extremely likely to get you.
2)Manned 5" flak. Try it yourself, man a 5" and fire at the incoming planes, especially those initiating a dive. They so easy to kill it barely takes 2 salvos.
3)The CV has to be killed in order to STOP the endless hordes of planes from taking off. The CV can pork a field out of fuel and out of ammo and out of hangars. Can you "damage" the CV so it stops launching planes for a while? Nope. Planning and executing a CV strike with others takes time... time in which you will lose the field.
4)It WORKS when compared to trying "safe" attacks on the fleet.
Making the CV tougher will only make me kamikaze on it more times. The ONLY thing that will prevent this is to have a CAP. It seems to me that all ye want is the CV to defend itself while they merrily go furballing. Sadly, its already set up that way... look at the first 2 reasons on the list. And its why people like me just kamikaze the bloody thing. Think of it as simulating "a whole squadron of planes" attacking the CV. I remember reading the reason why the fleet ack was so deadly was because it "simulated an entire taffy AA defenses". So which way do you want it?
-
S!
And as for the one instance where a CV died to a single fighter:
The USS Franklin, a brand new CV with lotsa AA and surrounded by a ton of flak ships got nailed by a kamikaze Zeke with a bomb.
She caught fire, was wracked with explosions, and although she didn`t sink, to all intents and purposes, she was junk.
-
You said it, Buzz. She didn't sink.
-
Can someone describe skip bombing? I've heard the term many times but don't really understand the intricacies?
-
S! Voss
Maybe you better read an account of the action. Then tell me it was important that she didn't sink.
Like I said, she was junk. Scrapyard metal.
-
S!
I don't bomb a CV with the intention of dying. I bomb it with the intention of killing the CV and living.
I don't have many points for killing CV's since most of my kills happened last frame and I hadn't listed the Typhoon or Hellcat as ATTACK.
Last frame I sank 3 CV's or Cruisers for every time I died. And very often I had to make two runs on a CV to send it to the bottom. A lot of time you get one hit and one near miss and a second trip is nessesary.
Almost every trip I made, I took damage from near misses by heavy flak. Most often I'd lose an aileron, a rudder, get a Rad punctured or oil leak. The Rad puncture is the worst for the Tiffie, it doesn't usually last more than a couple minutes after that. The Corsair and Hellcat take engine damage better, but they don't have the speed and I find I survive better in the Tiffie.
I would die on every mission, except that on the way down, I constantly roll, use my rudder to skid and only hold steady for the instant that I need to release the bombs.
I start at 10,000 feet, directly over the CV, usually release the bombs at around 4,000 ft. Starting directly over the CV isn't gonna help as far as the flak is concerned, that will get you whatever way you approach if you don't fly evasively. Being directly overhead is the best way to be sure you'll be able to hit the CV or Cruiser square with both 1K's. If you release lower than 4,000 ft, you are gonna likely die, since it takes at least 2,000 ft to pullout. At less than 2,000 ft range, you are gonna get creamed by the light flak.
As soon as I drop, I'm back to rolling like a madman, while I pull out in as diagonal a path as I can make. That is, across the aiming path of the guns and at the same time diagonally down.
I try to get down to the deck at about 1.5 distance from the TG. At that distance you are pretty safe from the light flak and the heavy flak doesn't usually shoot that low. Still you have to continue to roll and evade till you are at least 5.0 distance away.
All those of you who claim the kamikaze method is the only way of killing the big ships... you're wrong.
If you get hit by flak, and your bombs are not gone, then they explode with you. They don't continue down to hit the target.
And if you've held your dive to the point you aren't gonna be able to pull out, thinking you are guaranteed of a hit, then likely you will be hit by flak. That will throw you off course and you will again miss your target, even if you are still alive and able to hit the bomb release.
Hitting a CV and surviving takes planning and skill, and a certain amount of luck. If there is a CAP over the fleet, or someone manning the guns, then your chances of success are a LOT less.
-
By golly, then the problem is solved(if you think the single dive-bomber threat is 'tick-off' material, wait 'til this happens).
Make CV tougher, but make it damageable. If rockets, or well placed cannon rounds hit, let it knock out some of those flaks and acks.
I think we'll get to see a LOT more suicidal 'dweebs' if we do this. Fighters furballing around CV, diving into ack fire wave after wave strafing and rocketing.. until eventually the CVs and ships nearby loses all anti-aircraft functions, badly damaged.. then a 'counter vulch' right on top of the CV will commence.
...
or.. we can stick to what we have
CAP the CV. Protect it if it is so important.
-
S!
Don't know if Skip bombing can be done in AH, since the bombs would probably explode when they hit the water. The way it was done was like this as far as I know:
The bomber got down to around 500 ft off the surface of the water, in level flight, headed for the target. At about 1000 ft from the target, the bombs were released. They had a delay on the explosion of a few seconds. The bombs hit the water, and then skipped, just like a pebble you skip on a pond, right into the side of the ship.
Meanwhile the Bomber pulled up.
The Allies used this mostly against merchant ships and destroyers or destroyer escorts, and mostly in the Pacific. Lots of ships were destroyed trying to resupply Japanese bases cut off by Allied sea and airpower.
You couldn't practice skip bombing against heavily armed ships since the bomber had to pull up over the target after release, and would be really vulnerable to flak.
-
Most folks, myself included, fly many, most, or even all of their missions with little regard for survival.
Why should we all of a sudden care if we live just because big nasty boats are involved?
It's a game.
We all get to die over and over every night.
Not realistic, but that's what makes it a GAME!
eskimo
-
no toejame eskimo :rolleyes:
that same type complains that perk planes cost too much and that 3k buff runs are needed and that ack starrin aint dweeby
why should we expect anything else
-
Hmm, I think the Franklin was also a smaller carrier than the one depicted in AH. I'm not a CV expert, of course, but I would think no matter what style you prefer in game play that you would want the CV to take more abuse. The fact is, most of us live for the furball. Maybe we don't all furball, but the furball is where the kills are. Whether you turn-n-burn or boom-n-zoom, you hunt for the furball to get your kills.
The CV allows us to move in close to a field, and start an immediate action scenario. Whether you like to buff, furball, b-n-z, or man the guns of a PT Boat, this is the closest thing to rock-n-roll action there is. Otherwise, the fight is higher, further away, and often times hidden from view (to one side or the other).
With the CV you get a fight where both sides have the ability to view the fight from the tower, decide for immediate action or a remote entry, and they both know precisely where the furball is. It is very seldom that the field is capped immediately, so there isn't really a risk of vultching from the start.
The fight is, often, out over water, and restrained in elevation by flak. The most difficult aspect of this, that I have noticed, is getting your countrymen to restrain themselves from taking the fight right up to the CV. From the CV's standpoint that;s what they want. I have no problem with low furballs. The closer the fight the better we all look, whether you're into score, or not. Close fights with fast action kills rock, and they give good results in the standings.
Taking the CV out quick just ends the party.
-
Franklin was the exact same kind of carrier as depticted in AH--USN Essex-class. And Franklin wasn't the only US carrier to be mauled by a single plane.
What does it matter if the CV in AH sinks or not? Would it really make a difference if, instead of sinking, the CV slowly limped back to its home port incapable of flight ops? Either way, the CV is no longer usable as a base.
Carriers were shockingly vulnerable. Right under the WOOD flightdeck was a hangar filled to the brim with airplanes, guns, bombs, fuel, rockets, ammo, pressurized gas lines, and so forth. The british were smart (sort of--see below) and armored their flight decks. Nobody else did until the US MIDWAY-class was built (too late for the war)
That said, I see nothing wrong with increasing CV toughness for gameplay. I feel there is such a thing as "too much" realism, and this is a good case of it. I think AirWarrior had CV toughness about right--it took the AH equivalent of about 8,000 lbs of bombs to sink one. In other words a dedicated bomber raid, though with the LANC in AH 20,000 lbs might be more reasonable. Also, in AW torpedos had a bonus versus bombs, perhaps AH might want something similar to encourage torp raids.
(The armored flightdeck on the british ships had a by-product of reducing airplane capacity to about 2/3 of what a non-armored ship would carry for its tonnage.)
J_A_B
-
8K is precisely what it takes in the NDIsles map, but I think every other map is 2.5k. In the Isles the sea battles last much longer and are much more fun! :)
-
How odd that they aren't equally tough on all maps.
Must be the use of poor-grade steel in their construction in the other maps :)
J_A_B
-
I agree with comments made about capping the CV. To use and overused phrase (ahem) "Historically" shipping, especially attack ships had to be capped to avoid nme a/c coming in and dive bombing the ships. The Japanese took to suicide bombing as a last desperate effort to stem the allied tide of destruction of their bases and homeland. A shot up pilit with no chance of survival would dive his plane into a structure or ship to achieve some damage to an nme.
The cap is key, and many won't do it cuz the action is elsewhere. Like most things in the MA teamwork and organization is lacking.
-
I vote to make the CV tougher. It is just a gameplay issue, team work should be required to sink it.
Maybe when the navy aspect is more developed in the game HTC will look into a realistic ship damage model.
-
i admit i suicide attack the CV.]
The last two nights i sunk 2 enemy CV's. I was fighting over A33 when i noticed the enemy CV just off the coast heading north.
after i crashed i loaded up my mustang with 2 1k eggs and dived bombed the CV. I sunk the damn thing but got rught wing shot off and crashed.
There was no air support for the CV which made it an easy target for one plane.
I do think the CV needs to be a bit harder to kill but then again if you hit something with 2 thousand pounds of bombs it will be destroyed.
-
it's easy to take down a cv and survive...if you have a team. I go in with two wingmen i set on the cruiser and the other and I on the carrier. while two to three the rest of the team handle the CAP. we arrive later and come in high, the automated guns and flak train on my guys who are already there then dive in, deploy and pull out. as far as kamakazi's go...help thats what the japs did seemed to work for them. seems like it could be sorta fun, see if you can fly through all that and sideswipe a destroyer :)