Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Anaxogoras on January 12, 2009, 03:45:34 PM
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Well, I'm no longer in a Luftwaffe squadron and have left the 109 in the hangar this tour. Our new squad, the TAC Drivers, rotate which aircraft we focus on each tour, and this month it's the P-51, F6F, and P-47 (next month Russian and Japanese). The F6F and I have come to an understanding for cv hops, and though I'm hardly a good 51 stick, I find it fairly easy to boom n' zoom with it because of its high speed at military power and decent climb-rate.
The P-47 series is a little different. Until I recently started comparing the performance of our aircraft with hard data, I was mystified as to why the P-47N has an ENY of 5. Its climbrate at military power is barely 2000fpm, its top speed is slower than the rest of the 47s without WEP. Its advantage over the D-40 (20 ENY) is top speed with WEP, range, and that is all. Still, that extra speed is useful because the D-40 is SpitXVI fodder without a pilot mismatch, so I decided to focus on the N and see what it's all about.
My gunnery is above average, but I still find the 6x50cal armament mediocre, so the 8 guns are a good improvement over your typical American aircraft (and they last forever). I set my convergence to 400 yards and will open up at 600-800 yards while closing on my target. The roll rate at high speed is very fast, so the 47N is at home in shallow-dive attacks. Trouble appears after the diving attack, when it's time to regain that lost potential energy. Here is where the 51D is superior to the 47N because of its better powerloading. Any pilot who wants to succeed in the 47N must be very selective about how much energy he wants to sacrifice for a guns pass on a target; he must be patient. Investments of potential energy into kinetic energy do not maintain equality in the other direction of exchange.
The 47N pilot must also be wary of receiving extra attention from Spit XVIs, La-7s, Ki-84s, 109K-4s, etc. A lot of people see a 47 as an easy target, so you frequently find yourself dragging more than your fair share of bandits for friendlies. The 47N does best in large, multi-bandit engagements where its speed and firepower work to the benefit of wingman tactics. On the other hand, the 47N does poorly in areas where combat is light. For example, after killing a 190D-9 1vs1 who started with altitude over me, a Ki-84 appeared above my position. With only 2000 between myself and the ground, my chances were grim without friendlies nearby: it would be better to have two low 47Ns vs two high Ki-84s, than 1 low 47N vs 1 high Ki-84.
Which leads to the following point: do not get low in the 47N if there's any chance a bandit will bounce you from above. Even with only 5k ft to work with, a higher bandit is no reason to panic (still reason for caution), but with only 1k ft a SpitXVI or La-7 will eat you for breakfast. Setting a hard deck in your area of combat is more important in the 47N than almost all other fighters. It is not so much the 47N's poor turn rate that makes this paramount as it is its abysmal powerloading and limited WEP.
The range of the 47N is impressive. Anything more than 75% fuel is too much unless you're doing long range bomber escort. Before you take off, manually switch the fuel to the main tank, which has a nasty habit of leaking with only light damage. Switch it back to automatic when it's nearly drained and you will have your aux and wing tanks to fall back on.
Surprisingly, the 47N maneuvers well against comparable fighters like the 190 series and P-51. A notch of flaps can be deployed at high speed, which really helps to pitch the nose up against a maneuvering target. Dropping flaps is also helpful to bring the nose over the top in a roping maneuver, for which I find more opportunities in the 47N than the 109 because everyone knows to avoid the 109's rope, but not the 47's. ;)
So, is the 47N worth its 5 ENY? Given that someone like me can frequently land 5, 6, 7 and sometimes more kills without vulching, I suppose it is. But it requires so much patience and discipline, and also humility. If you get caught low and some n00b kills you with his SpitXVI, well...suck it up, that's going to happen from time to time. Like the Ta-152, the other odd bird of the 5 ENY family, the 47N can really shine with the right piloting skills and is no mere ordinance dump-truck.
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Just a thought Gav,
does draining the main fuel tank first have any weight distribution drawbacks? I can imagine all that fuel sloshing in the wing tanks can't be good for roll rate. There might be center of gravity issues along the centerline too. Or is the gross weight of the plane such that any fuel distribution weight is negligible?
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I've been trying to justify 5 eny on that bird for a while, and truthfully cannot. (Until you get above 20k :) ) That's a different story though.
As for fuel distribution, I find it a significantly more manueverable bird with empty wing tanks. I'll risk losing fuel in the main for this increase in performance. I know some folks like to leave a little in one tank in order to offset torque, but I've never found this to be beneficial.
Good luck with the Jug this tour :) I have mucho respect for those who can fly it well. :rock
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Just a thought Gav,
does draining the main fuel tank first have any weight distribution drawbacks? I can imagine all that fuel sloshing in the wing tanks can't be good for roll rate. There might be center of gravity issues along the centerline too. Or is the gross weight of the plane such that any fuel distribution weight is negligible?
Yeah, that's a good point trotter. Perhaps I exaggerated a bit; I tend to switch it back to automatic when I'm about to enter combat because I don't want to find myself dead-stick all of a sudden. The thing is, I have taken damage to the main fuel tank before anything else so frequently it seems well justified to trade a little bit of roll rate.
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Hey guys, just a bit of clarification. The P-47N is the only Jug to have wing tanks, and those are only 93 gallons per wing (labeled as AUX in the game?). The 370 gallon main tank is still in the fuselage, so burning any fuel in the main first shouldn't have an appreciable effect on roll rate.
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You get a D-40 and a N with the same fuel (i.e full on the D40 and no wing tanks on the N) and the N will outshine it. The stats are for full fuel, last I recall. That means the N will accelerate worse, climb worse, and turn worse, because it has about 500-1000lbs more weight onboard. With the same loadout, the N is better than the D-40.
As for ENY, it can fly across the map at 40k on internal fuel while carrying 3000lbs of ord (2500lbs and 10 rkts) and 3600 rounds of plane-shredding 50cal in an 8-gun configuration. Almost nothing can catch it in a dive, and it has uber flaps.
THAT is why it has an ENY of 5.
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I've been trying to justify 5 eny on that bird for a while, and truthfully cannot. (Until you get above 20k :) ) That's a different story though.
As for ENY, it can fly across the map at 40k on internal fuel while carrying 3000lbs of ord (2500lbs and 10 rkts) and 3600 rounds of plane-shredding 50cal in an 8-gun configuration. Almost nothing can catch it in a dive, and it has uber flaps.
THAT is why it has an ENY of 5.
Heh.
And don't get me wrong -- its a powerful plane. However with the fighting conditions as they exist in AH I personally don't think 5 is realistic. 10 perhaps...not 5. Particuarly not with the D-40 at 20.
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Funny, just getting to 40k with a full ord loadout (if that's possible) would take 40 of the 57 minutes of internal fuel. :rofl
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The P-47N has almost exactly the same flight time at 50% fuel as the D-40 does at 75% fuel. I did some tests once. Turns out, loaded for identical flight time the D-40 has a very slight advantage in climb on MIL power and none on WEP.
The P-47N is every bit the equal of the Pony-for five minutes. You have to protect that WEP for when you *really* need it, and that means hoarding E. And generally trying to enter combat abit higher where the MIL power is more competitive relative the other planes. All in all, I don't really think this plane needs to be ENY 5.
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As for ENY, it can fly across the map at 40k on internal fuel while carrying 3000lbs of ord (2500lbs and 10 rkts) and 3600 rounds of plane-shredding 50cal in an 8-gun configuration. Almost nothing can catch it in a dive, and it has uber flaps.
THAT is why it has an ENY of 5.
I tried it offline, and it took me nearly 48 minutes to reach 37,000 ft, with WEP, and I only had 15 mins of fuel left. Don't you think you exaggerated a wee bit? ;)
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perhaps he was air-launched from a b-29....OR...a F-18.
:noid
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N is the only jug that can exist in the weeds, and that's just barely, as most folks will drop what they're doing to chase down a jug. Use the 5 min wep wisely. (I can see no reason why its ENY of 5 is lower than a P51's 8)
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Gotta offer my $.02
I've grown fond of the Jug the last few tours for her looks, and Ive tried them all. By far my favorite is the D-11, and I really tend to avoid the N because, well, those clipped wings are smurfy. There's a lot here I agree with, and a lot I don't. As far as fighting, the November has some major advantages over the Deltas. She has speed on all of them, and can zoom a fair deal better, as well as having longer range.
BUT, if I'm going to fight one on one, give me a Delta any day. While they don't have the WEP and zoom, theyre much lighter aircraft, and down in the weeds, Ill shred a November with my Razorback. What it comes down to are your intentions. If you want to BnZ, take the november. But if you want to get down in the weeds, take a Delta. Shes GREAT at a rolling scissors, just keep that speed up for when the Spits try to bounce you.
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I fly the D-25 constantly and I dislike dog fighting above 7k in it.
Reason being is most enemy planes stay high to be able to dive on a target and have more E.
The P47 is great at causing over shoots.
Wait for them to dive in, get 600 or so on your six, pop a few hundred feet, 1 notch flaps, kill throttle, barrel roll, and they are sitting pretty in your gunsights.
The P47 is also forgiving as it will take a lot of bullets while you figure out what to do.
Best way to dogfight in a P47 is make them fight your fight. Don't try to turn with them, extend out and go for another merge (Merge, not HO, even though she excels at it).
It's a fantastic plane once you learn what it excels at.
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It is great at dumping E...but when you make them overshoot, what do you have? A 500mph target in guns range for .05 seconds before it zooms back up to 15K. Forcing overshoots as a lifestyle instead of guns defense is for living gunnery computers like Batfink.
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It is great at dumping E...but when you make them overshoot, what do you have? A 500mph target in guns range for .05 seconds before it zooms back up to 15K. Forcing overshoots as a lifestyle instead of guns defense is for living gunnery computers like Batfink.
lol. Its good practice though! Ive yet to make a shot like that, but when youre alone below them, its not bad. I prefer to make them slowly burn E, so I can smack them down in a stall fight.
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Interesting comments. Maybe I'll try the D models another tour. In my experience if you run into a good stick in, e.g. an La-7 or Spitfire XVI, you're really out of options in the D-40 or even the D-11. The tactics described here work well against nooblings, but not against a decent stick with an altitude advantage.
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Interesting comments. Maybe I'll try the D models another tour. In my experience if you run into a good stick in, e.g. an La-7 or Spitfire XVI, you're really out of options in the D-40 or even the D-11. The tactics described here work well against nooblings, but not against a decent stick with an altitude advantage.
It depends on how you come at it. These last few days, my awesome switch was somehow turned on in the D-11, and as long as I keep my speed, (Come in with at least a 1k alt advantage) just don't get stupid and you're golden!
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It depends on how you come at it. These last few days, my awesome switch was somehow turned on in the D-11, and as long as I keep my speed, (Come in with at least a 1k alt advantage) just don't get stupid and you're golden!
Ahhh, yes, it is always nice to have an altitude advantage. :lol
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Ahhh, yes, it is always nice to have an altitude advantage. :lol
lol. It is, but thats just in furballs. As long as Im going 1 v 1, I will take any plane down in the weeds. Last night, I had a GREAT fight with a Typhoon, (Feend I think it was). We started with me in a D-11 at about 18,500 and his Typhoon around 20,000. He dove in on me, I climbed up behind him, and we entered about an 8-10 minute stall fight that slowly descended down into the grass. I got a few pings at altitude, as did he, and I put the last burst into his right wing at about 20 ft and 200mph, just in time to see a Spit VIII behind me. A quick barrel roll and a snap-shot, and the Spitfire too was gone, and I was home free. Now Ill admit, while a good pilot could do this on a regular basis, the uber-performance these last 3 days from is highly unusual. I really feel like someone flicked a switch, and I suddenly became an ace. But, regardless of my sudden discovery of skill, the P-47 can obviously "hang with the big boys", and as long as you don't do something stupid, you can win a lot of fights against unsuspecting dweeb-planes. Of course, a single mis-step and you will probably be surrounded.
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Jugs have the qualities of excellent diving speed, roll rate, firepower, and unexpected levels of turning ability.
However, when flying a D, I always have to ask myself, WTF, why am I not in a C-Hog? Same qualities plus insane turning ability?
No, there is only one Jug that can exceed 360mph on the deck. You can turn with a Pony, 190, Typh, La7 in a D-11 or an N. Which is more likely to catch the %@$%$$ though? A SpitXVI has it all over either Jug in maneuverability... but which is more likely to outrun the sucker?
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Jugs have the qualities of excellent diving speed, roll rate, firepower, and unexpected levels of turning ability.
However, when flying a D, I always have to ask myself, WTF, why am I not in a C-Hog? Same qualities plus insane turning ability?
No, there is only one Jug that can exceed 360mph on the deck. You can turn with a Pony, 190, Typh, La7 in a D-11 or an N. Which is more likely to catch the %@$%$$ though? A SpitXVI has it all over either Jug in maneuverability... but which is more likely to outrun the sucker?
D-11 isn't all that slow. And she's a LOT more maneuverable than the N. While they both CAN turn with the above planes, the November only by a slim margin. If youre not flying to the max, you won't make it. The D-11 can afford to lighten up a little. It all comes down to how you fight. I don't like BnZing much. I want to be able to get dirty. The D-11 is for me. If you like high-speed hit and runs, take the N.
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D-11 isn't all that slow. And she's a LOT more maneuverable than the N. While they both CAN turn with the above planes, the November only by a slim margin. If youre not flying to the max, you won't make it. The D-11 can afford to lighten up a little. It all comes down to how you fight. I don't like BnZing much. I want to be able to get dirty. The D-11 is for me. If you like high-speed hit and runs, take the N.
The MA is not the DA. "Close" is good enough in turning, skill can make up a whole lot, but no one is so skilled they can make their bird fly faster.
The D-11 tops out at 343 on the deck. That is slower than a Spit16, slower than a Hog, slower than a Ki-84. Hell, a mid-war 109 G2 can catch it. These are of the birds that will willingly fight your Jug 1v1, albeit they'll usually want alt and positional advantage first.
Then you have your 190s, P-51s, Typhs, heavy 109s, things you might wish to slow down and dogfight with, as I mentioned. Which should you appear to be getting the better of them in any way in your D-11, will oh so bravely run away with ease.
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The MA is not the DA. "Close" is good enough in turning, skill can make up a whole lot, but no one is so skilled they can make their bird fly faster.
I don't fight in the DA at all, only LWMAs, and from the way I fight, I get nothing from a November while im landing 5 kills in a D-11. Its a matter of preferance really, as they are actually very different in a fight.
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I don't fight in the DA at all, only LWMAs, and from the way I fight, I get nothing from a November while im landing 5 kills in a D-11. Its a matter of preferance really, as they are actually very different in a fight.
It's all in your mind then. Unless you are taking way too much fuel in the N. One of the two. Also, if you land 5 kills in a D-11 with any regularity at all, you'd be a madman in a F4U
EDIT: I just checked. Your K/D ratio in the P-47D11 was 6-28 last tour and is 20-5 this tour. That kind of progress in that timeframe, I got to strongly suspect PEDs. Pass some over here... :devil
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Hey guys, just a bit of clarification. The P-47N is the only Jug to have wing tanks, and those are only 93 gallons per wing (labeled as AUX in the game?).
"only" 93 gallons?! That is almost the full internal fuel load of a 109... in each wing... and those are just for extra range. The internal fuel load of a fully fueled P47N is enough for 5 109s and a 6th one filled to 20%. If 50% is not enough for you, take a DT.
For 5 minutes of greatly boosted performance on WEP you get:
- reduced lethality due to the guns being even further out (wing extended to allow for fuel tanks). Major convergence issue.
- The added wing area does not compensate for the extra weight.
- without WEP it is the worst performing jug - slowest, worst climb, worst turn.
- Worse jabo than the D40 (takes longer time to climb and get to the target). Only advantage is if you saved the wep for the gettaway after the dive bombing, but then your climb was REALLY slow.
For AH comdition, a razorback jug with a paddle blade (D11 with better climb than D40) would be the ultimate 47 (M model excluded).
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Ahhh, yes, it is always nice to have an altitude advantage. :lol
Well, dude, if You're in a -47, ANY 47 for that matter, but ESPECIALLY the D-11, that should be the desired position from the get go.
Further thoughts- if you're going in to furball (i.e. not attack the base/strafe town, etc.), take the light 8 50 cals.
Even with the light ammo, you'll find yourself gettin thirsty before you find yourself out of ammo (unless you're me, in which case God help you shoot straighter :) )
In terms of fighting in the D-11... I've found that if you *do* wind up low and slow, don't despair. The thing can frustrate anybody with an altitude advantage, and has a GREAT way to thwart even a zero-
When they're into the attack, haul back on the stick, roll into the attack, and STOMP your rudder- and KEEP the pressure on the stick. If you're doing more then 350, pop out a notch of flaps. That roll/pitch maneuver is nigh impossible to follow provided you've timed it right.
What this does is gains you a brief amount of altitude, absolutely SLAUGHTERS forward velocity, and combines all 3 inputs- against a control stiffened enemy, you may even be able to get a snapshot off- the main objective is to force a horrible overshoot. Easy to do in the Jug - the D-11 most especialy.
After they overshoot, relax pressure on the stick and rudder, complete the roll, putting the lift vector where you wanna head to (base or friendlies), unload, punch the WEP, and dive as far as you can to pick up as much speed as possible- don't forget to rack in the flaps and "clean up".
By the time the other guy has reversed, you'll be back up to maneuvering speed.
Of course, the idea is you never find yourself low and slow, but don't go hauling back 6G's non-stop. The Jug just doesn't have the power to pull 7 tons of Jugly goodness around like that. But with this maneuver I've found that I can generally survive long enough to drag 'em to ack or to friendlies eager for a nice meaty kill.
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Well, dude, if You're in a -47, ANY 47 for that matter, but ESPECIALLY the D-11, that should be the desired position from the get go.
Oh, absolutely Rebel. But in context these guys were bragging as if they regularly kill Spit16s and La-7s from a position of disadvantage. :P
It sounds like the D-11 is the favorite among the 47 fans. I'll give it a try one of these tours, but I doubt I'll be killing as many 190D-9s and P-51s in it. :D
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Oh, absolutely Rebel. But in context these guys were bragging as if they regularly kill Spit16s and La-7s from a position of disadvantage. :P
It sounds like the D-11 is the favorite among the 47 fans. I'll give it a try one of these tours, but I doubt I'll be killing as many 190D-9s and P-51s in it. :D
Hehehe, you'd be surprised. Spit-16's and LA-7's are generally flown by complete n00bs. If you're at low altitude and you pull that reversal, half the time they spin in and auger :)
190d's and 51's will generally try to turn with you- which is a death sentence. I dunno why, but everybody seems to think the P47 is some hapless beached whale. Make 'em realize the truth- it's a big bad great white shark just waiting to get his tasty treats :)
Show those runnin' knob goblins what for!
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Well, i'll add my $0.02 as well since everyone else is doing it. :)
Before i rejoined JG11 i was the CO of a all P47 squadron, the 78th FG. And during my time flying the jug i've come to respect it even though I don't fly it anymore. It is a amazing aircraft and truly capable of doing some amazing things with the right stick behind it ( remember our P47 190 Fight gavagai? )
I personally favor the P47D11 & D25 versions only. Why? Because they are the best air to air dog fighters in the jug series. The D11 is the lightest but also the slowest so with that said you should never get low and slow with a jug if you don't know what you're doing. The D25 is the best in my opinion because it's a mixture of the D11 & D40. It has the maneuverability of the D11 with the engine and high alt performance of the D40 and the visibility as well.
MY opinion on the N? It's only advantage over the other jugs are the WEP, very high alt performance, and range. Other than that it's useless. As the N was the PTO Jug version and the D11/D25 was the ETO versions i tend to sway my style towards the ETO. And that's why I truly believe we need the P47M. It was the ETO hot rod jug and it would make a great addition to the jug series as it was indeed the fastest of the lot.
I only used the N jug when i knew our flight was going to exceed the flight time of 1hr. Other than that, you're better off taking a D25 for any of your Jug needs. Hope that clears a bit. :salute
Edit: I didn't describe in detail how both they maneuver but if you want me to gavagai I'll breakdown my experiences with em both. If you check tour 105 under my old handle, you'll see my killstats in the Jugs.
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I have to say, Blitzen, I think you and the others underestimate the extra initiative you can have with the N vs the D. Initiative isn't something concrete like turn-rate or climb. It's dictating the terms of the engagement. The main arena isn't always a good test of superior initiative because there are plenty of bad pilots who do dumb stuff, e.g. suffer a really bad overshoot in their La-7 against your D-11 (whereas if I were in the La-7 you'd be dead). Superior initiative is also amplified with wingman tacitics. A pair of Ns should beat a pair of D-11s every time assuming they have equal pilots, but because of the arena environment we are over impressed with the 1vs1-Bruce-Lee-ability of a D-11 over the N.
Btw, I was in a 109K-4, not a 190.
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The D-11 and the D-25 are my two favorites here, particularily the D-11 for it's turning ability. It just so happens my last two kills in a D-11 were a Spit XVI and an La-7. The D-40 is really nothing but a bomb truck and unless your flying over 20K regularily I see no reson to have the N at 5 ENY.
I love to get down in the weeds in a Jug but I want a few other planes around so I'm not the sole focus of attention. Jugs seem very happy in multi on multi engagements. If you can start with a little alt and keep the speed up they are dangerous in thse situations. It seems to me that it's fighting abilities are very similar to the 190's except they give up a little climb rate for better turning abilities.
I can attest to the three axis manouver mentioned above. If you can get it to the top and apply full elevator, ailerons and rudder you can really haul the nose around but you want to do this with a little alt (3-5K) so you can re-gain your (lots of) lost E in a subsequent dive. Jugs are also really good at rolling scissors/barrel rolling as an offensive manouver.
Well, that's my unrequested $0.02. Oh, and take the light 8x.50 package, 100% internal fuel and no drop tanks (D-11, D-25).
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Well, that's my unrequested $0.02. Oh, and take the light 8x.50 package, 100% internal fuel and no drop tanks (D-11, D-25).
I'm curious- why no drop tanks? The Jug is one of the most weight sensitive planes in the game- at 50% with a drop tank, you can get up to fighting alt half way (1/2 a sector, 12,000 feet), just when the tank runs out- punch the drop tank, and you're at fightin' weight right away.
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I'm curious- why no drop tanks? The Jug is one of the most weight sensitive planes in the game- at 50% with a drop tank, you can get up to fighting alt half way (1/2 a sector, 12,000 feet), just when the tank runs out- punch the drop tank, and you're at fightin' weight right away.
Just preference really. I fly almost everything with 100% internal and no drops. There a few planes I drop to 75% internal and in the Spits I do carry a sipper but that's about it. I just like to take off and not have to think about it. The airframe is clean, the fuel is burning off, there's no additional induced drag on my climb out and when I see a con I'm ready to go.
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Any aircraft should climb better with the fuel of a drop tank held internally instead. Since the P-47's climbrate is glacial, I also don't take them.
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Hmmph. Never thought of it that way, really. I was more concerned with the ability to control the weight at the final moments before the fight.
The climbrate's already glacial. I guess I don't count a drop tank as that much of a hinderence.
*shrug* another fine example of different strokes, I guess.
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The P-47N is the most capable Jug all the way around.
1) First, remember this dogma: "Tho I shall fly through the valley of death, I shall fear no evil, for a clean November Jug is a fast mother f-er."[at any altitude]
2) If you husband the WEP for when its truly important, the N is always faster than about 3-4 planes in the game, at any altitude
3) Once you have the P-47N at about 1/4 tank of fuel, with perhaps half of your ammo remaining, you're beginning to approach Spitfire-esque levels of wing loading and (on WEP) power loading.
4) 7,000 feet above ground level is escape altitude--if you have this much altitude, you're only about 8 seconds from showing 500 mph after a WEP assisted dive.
5) I take 75% internal and no drops with the N, as I'd rather have the induced drag of the extra weight than the parasitic drag of the drop tank. I have no scientific evidence to prove this is more efficient--just my gut. As soon as I rotate and begin to climb, I immediately switch to the wing tanks, and burn off whatever is left in them at the 75% fuel condition. After they are empty, the Aux tank goes next. I like the maneuverability advantage over the fuel-leak prevention technique.
Lastly, I love this plane, but have no idea about why it has a 5 ENY. I believe the N Jug deserves a solid 5 OBJ rating, but a 5 ENY is a bit low. When I began playing AHII, the P-51 had a 5 ENY and the November Jug had a 12 ENY. I think those are probably correct, but I'm not HTC. Also, given that the OBJ rating is what is used to govern attack scores, the 5 ENY cannot be related to its ordnance capability. It must be because of its air-to-air capability only.
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The D25 is the best in my opinion because it's a mixture of the D11 & D40. It has the maneuverability of the D11 with the engine and high alt performance of the D40 and the visibility as well.
I can tell you that if you duel Widewing with a D-25 vs. his D-40, the D-40 will win every time. All that vertical power makes up for any turning deficit.
As the N was the PTO Jug version and the D11/D25 was the ETO versions i tend to sway my style towards the ETO. And that's why I truly believe we need the P47M. It was the ETO hot rod jug and it would make a great addition to the jug series as it was indeed the fastest of the lot.
Efffin' A. I consider the N poor substitute for the M we need in LW.
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Efffin' A. I consider the N poor substitute for the M we need in LW.
That's the thing. How can the N be a sub for the M when they both were in two different Theaters? Bring on the M! :D
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Efffin' A. I consider the N poor substitute for the M we need in LW.
I don't think anyone should have any expectation that the N is a substitute for the M. They're truly totally different airframes. And, while I'd like to see the M as much as anyone, "need" is a strong word in the face of all the other holes in the planeset. We'll get the M someday--just not in the near future.
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It is incorrect that the Jug is a poor performer low and slow.. in a 1v1 its as deadly as any other plane in the game given its flown correctly.. reason being the firepower, if your a decent shot, all it takes is 1 good overshoot and just a split second of having the great 8 on the target and its all over.. the other guy will be sitting in the tower still hearing rounds hit (don't you hate that)
I don't fly the N because i don't feel its ENY is justified, its only better than the D40 under WEP and only in certain ways, having 4x the value of the D40 is kinda goofy.
I fly the crap out of the D40 though and as much as I like it, I have to say its a terrible "furball" plane.. and by furball I mean what you usually see as a furball in the game.. cons coming from 2 bases, meeting at middle at 8 or 9K and swirling to the deck mostly picking cons off of other peoples 6 till they themselves get picked.. You will almost NEVER make it home in a jug by doing that you will get anchored, find yourself on the deck, and get run down by a numbers guy in a LA/Spixteen/pony if you turn to engage him you will start to get the upper hand and get picked by one of the 3 other guys that were also fallowing you.. if you try to run.. they will catch you..
the only way to really have much success in a furball is to come in higher than normal, doesn't have to be stratospheric but enough to where you can make a shallow dive into the frey.. blow through taking snap shots, don't get anchored, egress and regain your E.. and come back.. thats about the only way to have much luck at surviving more than a few min.. you will probably get called a picker or whatever but.. well you cant be expected to sit there at 250mph on the deck swirling around with a bunch of spits and zeros can ya.
1v1 its lethal, you can drop flaps and wallow around with much of the plane set. again perhaps not for a VERY long time, but like I said.. it only takes 1 very brief snapshot to deal catastrophic damage, so its not like you have to be able to saddle up D200 and whittle away...
Ive made many kills on people trying to run me down by simply chopping throttle when they are 1.5 out to increase the rate of closure, make a hard break then a break back and get a passing shot as they fly by.
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I don't think anyone should have any expectation that the N is a substitute for the M. They're truly totally different airframes. And, while I'd like to see the M as much as anyone, "need" is a strong word in the face of all the other holes in the planeset. We'll get the M someday--just not in the near future.
Holes in the planeset?
we have the spit lineup, and the uber perked 14 (debate away)
we have the 109 lineup and the uber K4
we have the 190 lineup with the uber Dora
we have the Hog lineup with the uber -4
we have the 51 lineup with the uber D
then we have the jug lineup with... what?? it should go D11, D25, D40, N and then the uber M
but we dont..
its like if we had all the 51s EXCEPT the D or all the hogs without the -4.. you get the idea..
hows that for a "hole"
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First of all the P47N was designed as a long range escort for B29s in the Pacific Theater. That's why the fuel capacity.
Second, because it was designed for the PTO it did not have to climb rapidly or maneuver. It wasn't designed to.
It fought in the PAC against chiefly inferior Japanese aircraft. The P47 models that preceded it were more then adequate
in fighting Japanese fighters. They just didn't have the long range requirements needed from land based aircraft in the PAC.
Models.....the D40 is best suited for play in the MA. Its WEP is basically the only difference between it and the D25. There
are a few minor differences between the D25 and D40 but the HP of 2800 in the D40 was greater.
Unless you are flying higher then 30K the D40 is the choice. Anything lower the D40 can out horse the D25 or the D11.
Now....turn rate between the models would depend on the speed at which the turn is made, weight, including fuel onboard
and ammo. At certain weights any Jug can turn with the D11.....or for that matter any aircraft in AH depending on cornering speed.
So...when comparing turn rate you have to compare the speed of the turn. Apples to oranges.
Acceleration. Hands down if you get a Jug and P51 same speed, say 140 mph the jug will out accelerate the pony.
If you stall the pony you are dead. If you stall the Jug it accelerates faster nose down. If you get the P47 to 140 mph
and you have a P51 at same speed......the Jug will turn with the P51 and close the distance while doing so.
these are just some of the experiences I've had with both aircraft. The P51 gets out of shape quicker, and takes longer to
recover then a P47.
Also try this. When flying 25K and climbing I tried a test in both aircraft. The Jugs manifold pressure stayed at around 50 while
climbing to 30K and above while the P51s manifold pressure dropped. The Jug maneuvered much better then the D9 or the P51 and the K4.
At 30K a K4 tried the old nose up and outclimb trick. the D40 I was in not only outclimbed the K4 but ran over it in speed while climbing.
Wing configuration of the Jug differs from the 109s , P51s and FWs. The wing and the engine combination of the Jug at that alt is
superior. The only thing close is the F4U4. The tempest is fine until it reaches ~22K at which time it becomes mediocre.
Just mho for what it is worth.
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With 4 variants, including the "uber" N model, we have a fairly robust Jug line up. Even though we don't have the most numerous variant built (the D-22/23) nor the least numerous model built (the M), compared to what some other players have to deal with in this game, we have it made.
Be patient, the M will arrive in due time.
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Also try this. When flying 25K and climbing I tried a test in both aircraft. The Jugs manifold pressure stayed at around 50 while
climbing to 30K and above while the P51s manifold pressure dropped. The Jug maneuvered much better then the D9 or the P51 and the K4.
That's nothing new. The P-47s are so large and heavy because they have turbochargers on the engines. Like the P-38s they maintain full MAP all the way up to critical alt (30k-ish??), whereas most planes in the game have 1- or 2-stage superchargers that kick in and out at different altitudes.
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Acceleration. Hands down if you get a Jug and P51 same speed, say 140 mph the jug will out accelerate the pony.
With all due respect, Hajo, flight test data does not support this assertion. The P-51D out accelerates the P-47N from 150-200mph, and from 200-250mph. From 300mph-350mph they are equal.
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Gav....I said from 140mph...which is only a 10mph difference. Slightly nose down even at 1000ft, gravity will help the heavier Jug to
accelerate faster. Now at low altitude the P51 is faster level flight. But only slightly. I prefer the D model Jugs. The N is not very good at anything at 10K or below. And as I said in a stall....the Jug will come out better and quicker then the P51.
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I prefer the D model Jugs. The N is not very good at anything at 10K or below.
I'll allow your personal preference, but to say the N is "not very good" at 10K or below is selling it short. At 10K feet, there are only five planes faster than it, and two of them are perked, and the differences between the Jug N and some of the unperked planes are small amounts of speed. At typical MA weights and on WEP, it will climb in excess of 3000 fpm, which puts in the "average to above average" category. Roll rate is second only to the 190 series and Spit 16.
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Stoney- weights empty P47N 21,200 lbs. P47D 19,400 lbs P47M 14,700 lbs. the P47N had a bigger wing.
Again as far as I know the P47N never saw a 109 or 190. It was relegated to the PAC.
the M which was much lighter did see some use during the end of the war in Europe was slightly faster then the N
but had a myriad of teething troubles before it was used regularly in Combat. As I recall they were chiefly engine
problems...but atm I don't have that reference in front of me so this is on recall only.
I've used them all. And I don't use wep on climbout. Auto-climb the N Jug struggles to make 2K per minute at 75% fuel. 3400 rds of ammo.
The D40 models at 100% fuel with 3400 rds of ammo and same auto-climb setting climb 225 ft/min faster. 2250ft/min. (both on takeoff)
In real fighting I'm sure they didn't use WEP on climbout. They might have a pooched powerplant before they got to battle.
Engine damage could occur, and using WEP when not necessary was not a good idea. Imagine having an engine when you get to combat
damaged already and the WEP already expended. We suffer no damages in game from using WEP. They did in WWII most times.
In aces high it does no damage and by miracle you get to use it again. Once it was used, it was done if they emptied the Methanol or water tanks. Depending on type of injection of course.
Again....you can get what you want by controlling ammo and fuel loads.
If you can pick up Warren Bodies book titled "From Seversky to Victory, The P47 Thunderbolt"
.
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Stoney the N has a longer wing then the D models. Roll rate should be better in the shorter winged models. The M model had shorter wings then the N.
Excerpt from Widewing's website:
"The XP-47N took to the air for the first time on July 22, 1944. Test comparisons were made with a P-47D-30-RE throughout the early portion of the evaluation period. Much to everyone’s surprise, the XP-47N, with its greater wingspan and higher weight actually proved to have better roll performance than the D model. At 250 mph TAS, the N attained a maximum roll rate just over 100 degrees/second. The P-47D-30-RE could manage but 85 degrees/second at the same speed. At higher speeds, the N widened the gap further. In mock combat with a P-47D-25-RE, the new fighter proved to be notably superior in every category of performance. In short, the XP-47 waxed the venerable D model regardless of who was piloting the older fighter. The new wing was part of this newfound dogfighting ability, however, the more powerful C series engine played a role too. The additional horsepower allowed the N to retain its energy better than the older Thunderbolt. Perhaps the greatest performance increase was in maximum speed. Though not as fast as the stunning P-47M, the heavier N was fully 40 mph faster than the P-47D-25-RE and could generate speeds 30 mph greater than its principal rival, the Mustang. Scorching along at 467 mph @ 32,000 ft., the N could not be caught by any fighter in regular service with any air force on earth with the single exception of its M model sibling."
And yes, they did use 72" of MP during takeoff and climbout during combat missions. Try http://www.inpayne.com/dad/ickyandme.html for a link to a story about a pilot taking off from Ie Shima's short runways loaded for a trip to Japan and back. Per the POH for the P-47N, the aircraft took off with enough water to run 72" of MP for 15 total minutes, even though it was limited to 5 minutes at a time. At lower MP, you could run water for longer than 15 minutes.
Last, my reference to rate of climb on WEP was not made with regard to climbing out after takeoff, it was made in the context of a combat situation where those 2800 HP give you a climbing advantage over the D models.
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Stoney...read my post again. It is in game on the climbouts. Without WEP.
And.....WEP on climbout wasn't a standard practice. It was used only when absolutely necessary. (fully loaded).
When used as escorts they didn't use wep until they actually needed to in combat.
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With 4 variants, including the "uber" N model, we have a fairly robust Jug line up. Even though we don't have the most numerous variant built (the D-22/23) nor the least numerous model built (the M), compared to what some other players have to deal with in this game, we have it made.
Be patient, the M will arrive in due time.
we far from have it made..
we have a plane that by design is at a disadvantage in the MA type of combat, and on top of that we dont even have the best version of it.
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Ask a Russian player how well they like the Yak-3 we have in game, or the Lagg-3, or I-16. Or ask the Finns how they enjoy flying their favorite plane--the Brewster. Oh wait, they don't exist, not even a single version of any of those aircraft. So, we are indeed fortunate to be able to have 4 models of our favorite aircraft.
As far as it is disadvantaged in the MA, HTC did not design the game to take place only at 8,000 feet and below. That has happened as a result of the players flying and fighting at those altitudes.
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Ask a Russian player how well they like the Yak-3 we have in game, or the Lagg-3, or I-16. Or ask the Finns how they enjoy flying their favorite plane--the Brewster. Oh wait, they don't exist, not even a single version of any of those aircraft. So, we are indeed fortunate to be able to have 4 models of our favorite aircraft.
As far as it is disadvantaged in the MA, HTC did not design the game to take place only at 8,000 feet and below. That has happened as a result of the players flying and fighting at those altitudes.
weather its because it was designed that way or not is arbitrary, thats how its played.. you take a plane to 20k+ and more often than not you will have little more than time to reflect on your day.. fact of the matter is, the MA is 90% below 10K, right in the wheel house of the LA7s, Spixteens.. etc
as for the "how well do the russian players like their yak-3".. well im sure they would like it, for the first week of having it they might actually fly it.. after that you would see it about as much as you see the P39 as it would be absolutely outclassed by the Yak9, LA5 and 7
the P47M would be an aircraft that would actually be competitive in the MA in average hands and as such would get lots of stick time, and would be worth adding.. apples and oranges to compare it to the Yak-3, lagg -3 or most of the "gap fillers" which are planes that while being novel to have would ultimately see little use once the newness wore off.
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as for the "how well do the russian players like their yak-3".. well im sure they would like it, for the first week of having it they might actually fly it.. after that you would see it about as much as you see the P39 as it would be absolutely outclassed by the Yak9, LA5 and 7
Lol, the Yak-3 was the ultimate evolution of the Yakovlev series and probably among the best low level fighters of the war.
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Lol, the Yak-3 was the ultimate evolution of the Yakovlev series and probably among the best low level fighters of the war.
the Yak-3 with the VK107 engine would be superior with the yak 9 we have, something like 440mph top speed or so I think, but less than 100 made..
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but less than 100 made...
Eerily similar to the P-47M production numbers then?
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Eerily similar to the P-47M production numbers then?
more 47Ms saw service than yak-3 VK107s were made.
they went int service in the 56th and are credited with several 262 kills.
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There are bigger holes in the plane set, but the 47M is a highly desired item that would see alot of use and since it is alot like a D-40 with more horses, presumably wouldn't take as much development as something completely new.
Anyone have a firm idea on what kind of performance we could expect out of the M? A little better than the N?
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Same few whines over and over for the P-47M.
And the P-47M had a heavier engine in an off-the-assembly-line P-47D fuselage. It had a standard wing. It woudl NOT be 5000lbs lighter as claimed. That's bull pucky.
Stock frame, new engine. Does NOT equate to 5,000lbs less weight.
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Anyone have a firm idea on what kind of performance we could expect out of the M? A little better than the N?
A little better? NO.. see the charts below (show M and N)
wep climb nearing 4,000fpm at sea level.
400mph at only 10K, peaking at over 470 at around 32k
and these numbers are at FULL internal fuel.
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47m-republic-wepchart.jpg)
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p47m-n-climb.jpg)
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p47m-n-speed.jpg)
TEXT DATA
400 mph at 10,000 feet,
453 mph at at 25,000 feet,
470 mph at 30,000 feet
climb rate under WEP:
3750 feet per minute at 5000 feet
3150 feet per minute at 20,000 feet
weights:
10,432 pounds empty
13,275 pounds normal load
15,500 pounds maximum
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We have enough planes for the MA already in my opinion.
What we do however have a lack of is early to midwar aircraft that are needed to fill out planesets in Scenarios.
We end up substituting aircraft usually to fill out a Scenario.
The list is long.
No russian bombers of any nature.
We need the Betty and the He111.
JU52
Brewster Buffalo played a significant role in the PAC and Burma theaters. And don't forget the Finns!
and so on and so on. The list as I said is long.
Many war winning aircraft and ground vehicles need added to our inventory for special events.
I'll bet early war aircraft will be added before we see the M series Jug.
We have 4 models of the Jug already. 109s out the patootie!
Japanese fighters could be added. Russian fighters for sure.
Spitfires...hell we have more then enough models.
Our Scenarios will never be complete without them.
Bristol Beaufighter. Flew in north Africa by the Brits and elsewhere also by the US as well as the RAAF and the New Zealand and he SAAF.
Our next Scenario is going to be in North Africa. Not one Beaufighter will be in the Scenario.
The list goes on and on. What...maybe between 200 and 250 CHogs saw service. Same with TA152s.
We have a great Battle of Britain Scenario and not one He111 is there. A travesty. It was the LWs' most widely used bomber of the war
at that time. Ever try catching Ju88-4s with a Hurri and a SpitI? I believe a limited number of Ju88s entered BoB but the model number
I'm not sure of.
Let's patch the GAPING holes in the planeset. We have enough uber rides in the MA that probably two out of three planes you see
when flying are some kind of spitfire or a P51. Coming in Next 109K4, La7 and D9.
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scenario? :P
adding the M would be FAR easier than building entire new aircraft from scratch.
so you have an aircraft that is relatively easy to add, and would ACTUALLY GET USED on a daily bases by more than a handful of people.
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two out of three planes you see
when flying are some kind of spitfire or a P51. Coming in Next 109K4, La7 and D9.
and adding a bunch of low performance "scenario" rides is not going to fix that.
at least the M will add another COMPETITIVE option to help dilute the overused uber rides .
If you look in the arenas.. what you see? about 80% of the entier player base in the MAs.. so yea, lets add planes that are out of place and wont get used there, lets not add something that the vast majority of players MIGHT ACTUALLY CONSIDER FLYING.
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We have enough planes for the MA already in my opinion.
What we do however have a lack of is early to midwar aircraft that are needed to fill out planesets in Scenarios.
We end up substituting aircraft usually to fill out a Scenario.
The list is long.
No russian bombers of any nature.
We need the Betty and the He111.
JU52
Brewster Buffalo played a significant role in the PAC and Burma theaters. And don't forget the Finns!
and so on and so on. The list as I said is long.
Well said! :aok
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EDIT: I just checked. Your K/D ratio in the P-47D11 was 6-28 last tour and is 20-5 this tour. That kind of progress in that timeframe, I got to strongly suspect PEDs. Pass some over here... :devil
lol. I wish I knew how I suddenly got good. The only thing im doing different is I've been doing homework while im not actively fight.
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If you look in the arenas.. what you see? about 80% of the entier player base in the MAs.. so yea, lets add planes that are out of place and wont get used there...
I don't know if you've ever noticed, but on Friday nights, there are more people in the Special Events Arena than in either of the LW Mains. There are players who basically fly nothing but special events--snapshots, scenarios, FSO--they never touch foot in the main. So don't be so obtuse about this one aircraft. What's the hurry? All in due time.
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Any aircraft should climb better with the fuel of a drop tank held internally instead. Since the P-47's climbrate is glacial, I also don't take them.
True in principle, not in practice.
The drag from the DT has an increasing influence with speed. Since you climb at a rather low speed ~180 mph (unless you go for a shallow 250 mph climb), the effect is truly minimal. The center DT on the jug is just enough to bring you to your desired alt in the kft teens. If you plan a long cruise to the target then yes, internal fuel will make a difference. Otherwise, DT is better.
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I don't know if you've ever noticed, but on Friday nights, there are more people in the Special Events Arena than in either of the LW Mains. There are players who basically fly nothing but special events--snapshots, scenarios, FSO--they never touch foot in the main. So don't be so obtuse about this one aircraft. What's the hurry? All in due time.
Right, FSO. I fly in it too from time to time..
its a few hours, 1 day a week and not even every week..'
the other 98% of the time, the MA gets the vast majority of the attention.
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True in principle, not in practice.
Yes, you're correct here. As long as you use up all the fuel in the climb, the drop tank would actually be the better choice, as the parasitic drag would be less than the induced drag. However, I tend to level off and begin a cruise climb around 8-10,000 feet (~1/2 of the tank still full), hence my statement. I suppose I should have qualified that.
Other errata...I previously stated that the D-22/23 variant was the most produced version, and this was incorrect. It was the second most produced version of the D series after the D-25 variant.
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True in principle, not in practice.
The drag from the DT has an increasing influence with speed. Since you climb at a rather low speed ~180 mph (unless you go for a shallow 250 mph climb), the effect is truly minimal. The center DT on the jug is just enough to bring you to your desired alt in the kft teens. If you plan a long cruise to the target then yes, internal fuel will make a difference. Otherwise, DT is better.
Not so. You run the engine at the same power, have the same thrust, and fly 2 planes at the same climbing speed. One has a HUGE drag slowing it down. Well you're using more power to maintain that same speed, so you climb at a lower AoA (lower fpm rate) even though you're at the same speed.
DTs slow you down both in level flight and in climb rates. Internal fuel is always better.
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We have enough planes for the MA already in my opinion.
What we do however have a lack of is early to midwar aircraft that are needed to fill out planesets in Scenarios.
We end up substituting aircraft usually to fill out a Scenario.
The list is long.
No russian bombers of any nature.
We need the Betty and the He111.
JU52
Brewster Buffalo played a significant role in the PAC and Burma theaters. And don't forget the Finns!
and so on and so on. The list as I said is long.
Many war winning aircraft and ground vehicles need added to our inventory for special events.
I'll bet early war aircraft will be added before we see the M series Jug.
We have 4 models of the Jug already. 109s out the patootie!
Japanese fighters could be added. Russian fighters for sure.
Spitfires...hell we have more then enough models.
Our Scenarios will never be complete without them.
Bristol Beaufighter. Flew in north Africa by the Brits and elsewhere also by the US as well as the RAAF and the New Zealand and he SAAF.
Our next Scenario is going to be in North Africa. Not one Beaufighter will be in the Scenario.
The list goes on and on. What...maybe between 200 and 250 CHogs saw service. Same with TA152s.
We have a great Battle of Britain Scenario and not one He111 is there. A travesty. It was the LWs' most widely used bomber of the war
at that time. Ever try catching Ju88-4s with a Hurri and a SpitI? I believe a limited number of Ju88s entered BoB but the model number
I'm not sure of.
Let's patch the GAPING holes in the planeset. We have enough uber rides in the MA that probably two out of three planes you see
when flying are some kind of spitfire or a P51. Coming in Next 109K4, La7 and D9.
+1!
MA hoarders wouldn't understand, but there's alot of people that play for the Special Events. I too agree we need holes filled before we get more "uber" rides
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I nearly always use 75% in N, (as opposed to 50 and a drop) use main on climbout, SOLELY because when furballing I get a 'main-fuel' hit about every 3rd run...having some added weight in wings beats the crap out of walking=====(if I think about it, I burn off wings, as aux is good for 10 min or so I think) Above 5k (but less than 10k) it's faster than a Lgay, on deck faster the others, save D9, tiffie...mebbbe 51. It is a bit less nimble than D40, LOTS less than 11, but the range jugs are in for such things, esp down low makes that difference moot, I think. The N can survive low in a numbers-negative situation (with WEP available), the others can't (well, unless they are piloted by 4-5 guys who I can think of :salute)
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Above 5k (but less than 10k) it's faster than a Lgay
This is incorrect for the LA-7. Check out Dokgonzo's chart. In fact, it's just about at 10k that the P-47N with WEP becomes faster than an LA-7, maybe that is what you meant.
The P-47N with WEP is faster than the LA-5 with WEP at all altitudes, which I found surprising.
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im in for the m :aok simple add on , easy fix to the 150 octane group, and i would love to go fast with all those guns :aok
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This is incorrect for the LA-7. Check out Dokgonzo's chart. In fact, it's just about at 10k that the P-47N with WEP becomes faster than an LA-7, maybe that is what you meant.
The P-47N with WEP is faster than the LA-5 with WEP at all altitudes, which I found surprising.
Hmmm...lemme check on that
Dang I was wrrrrrrr...WWWRrrrrrr...not correct. "N" passes Lgay in speed around 10k...Lgay starts picking up around 15
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Hmmm...lemme check on that
Dang I was wrrrrrrr...WWWRrrrrrr...not correct. "N" passes Lgay in speed around 10k...Lgay starts picking up around 15
problem the LA hits its top speed pretty quick, the N takes around 4 years.
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Jugs have the qualities of excellent diving speed, roll rate, firepower, and unexpected levels of turning ability.
However, when flying a D, I always have to ask myself, WTF, why am I not in a C-Hog? Same qualities plus insane turning ability?
No, there is only one Jug that can exceed 360mph on the deck. You can turn with a Pony, 190, Typh, La7 in a D-11 or an N. Which is more likely to catch the %@$%$$ though? A SpitXVI has it all over either Jug in maneuverability... but which is more likely to outrun the sucker?
That is weird because yesterday i've had a dogfight starting at Co-E,Alt: 12K, me in a 47-D40 VS Spit 16. We merged, and he hit my oil tank. I managed to keep me off his aim with two low speed HammerHeads and dive away to make a snap turn. Then the turning fight began. All the way to the ground we could both not have a decent gun solution (couple of snapshots maybe). I guess i suprised him w/ those notch of flaps. Once on the ground, a little barrel, he overshoots and I manage to get a good shot at him at 400-600 range. He started smoking and doing panicked scissors on the deck. He burned so much E that I was just about to finish him off when a pony snapped my tail in half. (I guess i have the tunnel vision syndrome).
Yes the turn radius of the spit is much better than a Jug but keeping in mind the Jug's hidden flap maneuvrability, I guess it can maintain a good turn rate against pretty much anything in decent hands and a good altitude.
PS: I'm pretty new on these forums so i expect a lot of negation. []^_o[]
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We merged, and he hit my oil tank.
:rofl Figures...You have to love the MA...
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A few nights ago I took off in a 109K-4 to go after what I thought would be a set of buffs. I was right. They were Lancasters at 20K but there was a P-47 perched about 4-5K above them escorting.
On his first pass on me I did a 360 flat turn and then tried to catch the Lancs again. On his second pass I maintained my flight path but barrel rolled to avoid his shot. Each time he went back up and at that alt I pretty much knew I couldn't match him.
After his second climb another friendly entered the picture much closer to the buffs than I was and the P-47 placed his attention there. The friendly dove out slightly and the P-47 followed. As soon as I saw this I put my K-4 into a climb so that the 47 wouldn't be able to zoom climb above me again. He killed the other friendly.
As I approached the Lancs the P-47 was coming from my forward aspect about co-alt. Knowing he'd have to turn 360 degrees I avoided his merge and ended up with three clean passes on the Lancs killing one per pass.
By this time the P-47 was on my six again and closing. I nosed down to drag him from alt thinking that with a lot of E and the K-4's climbing abilities that I might be able to out climb him even in a zoom but my ultimate goal was to take him to the deck. After a few turns and zoom climbs we ended up exactly there as he dove out thinking he'd outrun me in a dive. While he gained minimally I stayed with him and trimmed out at the bottom. I'm sure he thought I'd compress and lawn dart.
Once on the deck the real turn fight began. He managed to force one overshoot but didn't have a gun solution and he used the three axis turn at the top once also just missing a guns solution.
The fight would go 2-3 turns then he would extend while I chased him back down. He chose his extensions well, forcing me to continue turning so that he could gain seperation but once I straightened out he couldn't maintain it and we'd go another 2-3 turns. While in normal circumstances I may have had a snapshot oppotunity or two, I was out of cannon rounds having expended them on the Lancasters earlier. Knowing I'd have to saddle up I was getting somewhat frustrated at his ability to avoid me when all of a sudden he ran out of gas. I took him as he tried to ditch.
I'm not sure what this has to do with this particular thread but it was a very fun encounter trying to outwit this Jug, beginning more in his element than mine, to reach the buffs he was doing a good job of protecting and then coercing him into my element for the final fight. He did a good job of managing the situation and of flying that Jug other than his decision to follow the other friendly too low (but only a few K below my original alt) on that one occasion.
I guess the moral of the story is that a well flown Jug can be a formidable opponent even to an "uber plane" like the 109K-4.
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Someone mentioned the amount of players in the MA. Yes...the MA gets the majority of players.
When a Scenario is on.......look how many are in the SEA participating when the rest of the run and gunners
are in the MA flying the Uberstuffen. Those usually participating in a scenario are flight simmers. They enjoy
the History and wish to immerse themselves in a virtual time and place in a virtual aircraft fighting a historical battle.
The run and gunners don't want the discipline of flying a scenario. They don't want the evenly matched fight at 25K.
They don't want the responsibility of protecting or defending or having a team oriented goal of larger proportion.
You see....they can't come diving down from 15K with 30 of their mates to pick an otd furball of 6 planes.
And then land their picks while slapping themselves on the back for slaughtering 3 planes with their 25.
They aren't simmers, they are WoW and Quake refugees. And you will not catch them flying anything but an uber plane.
There is a difference between a simmer and a point and clicker. There are few of us (simmers) left.
Most of the latest generation have fallen off the Quake Wagon and are in our MAs now.
I'm seeing an increasing amount of dive, shoot, miss and run (in P51, D9 anything fast)
I'm seeing more and more bombers that bail after toolshedding. What great simmers they are!
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Someone mentioned the amount of players in the MA. Yes...the MA gets the majority of players.
When a Scenario is on.......look how many are in the SEA participating when the rest of the run and gunners
are in the MA flying the Uberstuffen. Those usually participating in a scenario are flight simmers. They enjoy
the History and wish to immerse themselves in a virtual time and place in a virtual aircraft fighting a historical battle.
The run and gunners don't want the discipline of flying a scenario. They don't want the evenly matched fight at 25K.
They don't want the responsibility of protecting or defending or having a team oriented goal of larger proportion.
You see....they can't come diving down from 15K with 30 of their mates to pick an otd furball of 6 planes.
And then land their picks while slapping themselves on the back for slaughtering 3 planes with their 25.
They aren't simmers, they are WoW and Quake refugees. And you will not catch them flying anything but an uber plane.
Or maybe... just maybe... their RL obligations and schedules don't allow them to participate in organized events. ;)
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There are a lot of organized events during the week. At differing times.
At least one or two can be attended. Snapshots, FSO on fridays and Scenarios.
I work 3 shifts......I manage to make a few of them. And I work weekends and holidays.
I make them. Of course....you have to want to attend them.
Again....can't slaughter the few then. There is competition. ;)
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Or maybe... just maybe... their RL obligations and schedules don't allow them to participate in organized events. ;)
I don't think he was trying to call you out Bald :)
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Someone mentioned the amount of players in the MA. Yes...the MA gets the majority of players.
When a Scenario is on.......look how many are in the SEA participating when the rest of the run and gunners
are in the MA flying the Uberstuffen. Those usually participating in a scenario are flight simmers. They enjoy
the History and wish to immerse themselves in a virtual time and place in a virtual aircraft fighting a historical battle.
The run and gunners don't want the discipline of flying a scenario. They don't want the evenly matched fight at 25K.
They don't want the responsibility of protecting or defending or having a team oriented goal of larger proportion.
You see....they can't come diving down from 15K with 30 of their mates to pick an otd furball of 6 planes.
And then land their picks while slapping themselves on the back for slaughtering 3 planes with their 25.
They aren't simmers, they are WoW and Quake refugees. And you will not catch them flying anything but an uber plane.
There is a difference between a simmer and a point and clicker. There are few of us (simmers) left.
Most of the latest generation have fallen off the Quake Wagon and are in our MAs now.
I'm seeing an increasing amount of dive, shoot, miss and run (in P51, D9 anything fast)
I'm seeing more and more bombers that bail after toolshedding. What great simmers they are!
lumping the "MA players' into one big group and referring to them in bulk as "quake refugees" is just wow..
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Eagle I was not referring to you.
Wingnutt I am not including the whole MA. Just the majority. Since the majority seems to play the game that way,
that is why I referred to the MA.
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Eagle I was not referring to you.
Yeah... I know. But it's true. I've never participated in an AW or AH event, mostly because they don't start after 9 PM Central during the week and on the weekends I'm either busy or don't know how the day's going to line up.
I really really wanted to do BoB but saturday afternoons during the fall with fall yard clean-up every weekend for two months negated that.
Anyway, my point was not everyone is 14 with nothing to do but play.
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the majority seems to play the game that way,
sadly, I agree. :frown:
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BaldEgl LOL I wish I was 14 . Scenarios take place usually at 3PM EST on saturdays.
I get my work out of the way early ;)