Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: rammjagr on October 07, 2001, 10:37:00 PM
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I dont mind needing 200 perks to fly a 262. However, when I am in the air in a 262 I expect to be able to use the plane realistically, not having to rubber neck constantly for "enemy" 262's!
I remember from Warbirds, every time u flew a 262, u just got 2 enemy 262's glued to your 6 soon as u maid contact with enemy.
I hope we can avoid this in AH.
I think 262's should not be allowed to kill other 262's or Ar234's. Who would fly a Ar234 when u know u just gona be shot by a 262??? :confused:
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Ya spend yer perks, ya take yer chances.
Why should you be immune from others in the same/similiar ride?
You spent 200 for your 262 ride, so did your opponent, let the best man win. Lamest whine I have heard yet, wanting the jets to be immune from one another..............
It's alright for a jet to kill a lesser plane, but no alright for an evenly matched fight, 262 vs 262............ :rolleyes:
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ok u can't figure it out so I will explain it to you. The 262 was unlike any other plane in ww2 (it was a jet (duh)). It was INVULNERABLE unless it was landing or taking off. Oh a few were shot down at speed, by GREAT flying -- pilots cutting them off in turns and makeing incredible deflection shots! THAT IS WHY IT COST'S 200 POINTS!
Point is, 262's having to worry about other 262's is just rediculous.
Every piston engine aircraft in ww2 had an enemy counterpart with comparable flight performance. The allies had NOTHING comparable to the 262. THAT IS THE POINT.
:rolleyes:
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If you don't want to face other pilots on an equal footing (ie. in the same plane type), go fly in the CT. You fly in the MA, take your chances with every other plane (including other 262s) like everyone else. Don't like those odds? Don't pay the perkies then...
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you are just pissed that you dont get to run from every other plane in the arena.
kinda pisses you off that others are also spending 200 and have more skill than you?
if I see enemy 262, i'm happy i'll have a very tense fight.
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Originally posted by Animal:
you are just pissed that you dont get to run from every other plane in the arena.
kinda pisses you off that others are also spending 200 and have more skill than you?
personal attacks? you assume alot of stuff, I guess u missed the point.....
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Originally posted by Blue Mako:
If you don't want to face other pilots on an equal footing (ie. in the same plane type), go fly in the CT. You fly in the MA, take your chances with every other plane (including other 262s) like everyone else. Don't like those odds? Don't pay the perkies then...
Ok, you dont get it either.... The 262 never faced anyone on equal footing! its not a prop job! That is why it costs 200 points! sheez, the low iq types are out in force.
:(
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Exactly! It costs 200 points for you to fly, it costs 200 points for anyone else to fly also. Equal footing? PUHLEAZE, it's a damn game. Since when did the germans fly spits and mosquitos as well as 190's and 109's? or are you going to whine about that too?
If you don't want to face another 262 in your 262, then don't fly a 262! Pretty simple.
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Originally posted by rammjagr:
Ok, you dont get it either.... The 262 never faced anyone on equal footing!
Then go fly offline and you won't have to either.
Sheez, the low iq types are out in force.
Sorry but I think it is YOU that is having all of the comprehension problems here. I explained before but you didn't read my post and understand it:
The CT is for historical match ups. When the 262 is available in there you will not have to worry about fighting other 262s.
The MA is fantasy. Expect to face the same planes that you are flying.
Please TRY to understand this. You will enjoy yourself much more then.
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Originally posted by rammjagr:
Ok, you dont get it either.... The 262 never faced anyone on equal footing! its not a prop job! That is why it costs 200 points! sheez, the low iq types are out in force.
:(
rammjagr, please don't be so dweebish. If that argument were valid, then I would get to say the same about the P-51D. I should be immune to other P-51Ds because they had no equal at 25K either.
Hmm.. wait.. yeah.. then we can all fly the same plane and no one can shoot anyone else down because alike A/C are invunerable to each other.
Yeah.. that would be cool! :rolleyes:
Wing up, Get kills, Be happy!
Major Midnight - CO
(http://webpages.charter.net/davidlj/Midnight.gif) (http://webpages.charter.net/davidlj)
The 412th is actively seeking P-51 Mustang pilots. E-mail me for more information davidlj@charter.net
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What's this rubbish about the 262 being unique?
Let's put this to rest: Both the Brits (Meteor), Yanks (P80) AND the Japs (Kikka) all had jets.
Now you're going to whine that only the 262 saw action, but the Meteor has many many more A2A kills than the 262 (V1's), and the P80 went on to show what it could (or couldn't) do in Korea.
Galland flew both the 262 and meteor, and is on record as saying that he believed the 262 airframe to be far superior, but the robustness and reliability of the Meteors' engines off set this. (He re-equipped and trained the Argentine airforce post war with Meteors).
What an apalling red faced foot stamping whine.
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Point: The 262 was unlike any other plane in ww2 (it was a jet (duh)). It was INVULNERABLE unless it was landing or taking off.
Counterpoint: This isn't WWII.
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Galland said A 262 with Meteor's engines would have been the ideal plane. However he said that the 262 was superior in every perfomance category, only its engines were less reliable.
Metor killing V1s is not A2A combat. Meteor even the MkIII is over 60mph slower than the 262.
The F80 has just absolutly nothing to do with WW2, sorry.
Anyway as for the topic.
Fly the 262 in the CT or in Scenarios and youll have ur realistic 262 advantages.
In the MA you have to fight it out and be careful. However with the 200point cost it will be quite rare that 2 262s meet frequently.
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And yes the 262 is very unique in WW2. Its the only jet of the war to engage in real WW2 air combat and actually shoot down real enemy planes. Planes that were figting and fighting back.
BTW the kikka was barely a 400mph plane. It was also ONLY a single seat light bomber, it had no guns. It only flew for about 30minutes if at all.
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Originally posted by Midnight:
[QB]
If that argument were valid, then I would get to say the same about the P-51D. I should be immune to other P-51Ds because they had no equal at 25K either.
Midnight, time to remove your head from your %#!. P-51 getting shot down by a P-51 is not much different from a P-51 getting shot down by a FW-190D, very similar flight envelopes. This has been my point all along..... <sigh>
You tell me one allied plane that had similar speed, climb, manuverability as the 262 and I will agree with your point of view....
:(
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Then AH should not be.
What about Pacific Navy planes fighting German planes?
Or 109s escorting B17s?
Or the "don't move your controls so rapidly" also affecting 262 pilots; who did not have to deal with this in WWII?
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Actually contrary to popular belief, the P80 DID fly combat missions during WWII in the Med.
It just never encountered any enemy aircraft.
Funked has the details, if you want specifics.
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Oh verm, 3 planes doing sightseeing and a show and tell for the troops in Italy is not combat.....
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even a He162A would be more correct in AH than a Meteor, or of course a P-80. See, the Salamander at least got one air to air kill while the rest were looking for V-1s or doing some touristic flights over Italy :).
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Considering more bombs fell on Germany than V1 did on Britain, I'd say the Meteor was just a tad more successfull, wouldn't you?
Deutchland uber alles, as you lot so like to imply.
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LOL you meteor fanatics are stupid if you think unescorted unarmed unmanuvering drones flying at low alt on a constant heading with no ability to defend itself are the same as hordes of heavy bombers with thousands of machine guns and hundreds of escorts.
Anyway go ahead and think meteor did anything useful in the war, I know its false you know its false, but if it makes you feel better...........
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Originally posted by rammjagr:
Midnight, time to remove your head from your %#!. P-51 getting shot down by a P-51 is not much different from a P-51 getting shot down by a FW-190D, very similar flight envelopes. This has been my point all along..... <sigh>
What does a percentage number (%#) have to do with a P-51 shooting down a P-51?
Your argument is basically saying that because you are in a "unique" plane that is fast and has big guns, you should be invonerable to another plane with the same characteristics.
Are you are expecting a game consession to compensate for your lack of skill and SA?
Pull your head from your imaginary world and just be happy that the 262 costs 200 perks.
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forget the jets, bring the Stuka and BF-100 to AH! Time to fill in gaps and bring the senario planes to the game.
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Are you are expecting a game consession to compensate for your lack of skill and SA?
LOL Midnight. That's me, lack of skill and SA...... LOL
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GRUNHERZ,
It isn't "Meteor fanatics" that are distorting things, its "German fanatics" who distort anything they can to build up the super human image for the Germans.
I think that the people that didn't have V-1s land on them because a Meteor shot it down would disagree with your assesment of its contribution.
I'm not keen on seeing the Meteor in AH, but lets try to use some balance in our views.
Was the Meteor used? Clearly, yes.
Was the Meteor as important as the Me262? Clearly, no.
To dismiss it because it didn't actually kill any enemy airmen is silly.
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Seeker looks like ppl doesn't bite your bait.
Better luck next time with your trolls :D
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Be fair, Staga, you have to use some real smelly stuff when you go fishing for bottom feeders.....
But you're right, I won't be happy until they're typing in caps.
Is it worth pointing out at this point that of all the technology that was swiped from Germany in 45, no one ever bothered developing the 262 or the Fw series?
Russia went on to work on some German jets, Spain further refined the 109 series, but the 262 and the Fw? Dodos, dead avenues, nada.
Just not up to par with what the rest of the world had.
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Brits and U.S already had their jet-programs running fast and side-step from path they already chosed doesn't seem like a good idea.
Guess thats why some russian manufacturers did use Me-262 and maybe some FW (Ta-183)/Me concepts (Me P.1092) as a base-plan when they started to build their own jets. At least some russian early jets looks just like those german plans.
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btw Seeker check this page, Scroll down and enjoy ;)
Me P.1101 (http://visi.net/~djohnson/mess/mep1101.html)
P.1101 with Allison Turbine in tests in U.S
(http://visi.net/~djohnson/mess/p1100-8.jpg)
[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: Staga ]
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I always wonder why F84/F86 had similar wings of Me262, evolution convergence? :rolleyes:
:D
And Seeker, CAPS CAPS CAPS CAPS!!!!!
;)
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Seeker nobody went on to develop the 262 design because it was a 1939-1940 airframe, yep thats when work on 262 began. Which 1939 plane was capable of 540mph flight. Or 600mph flight. Which 1939 plane was able to climb 22500fpm reaching an altitde of 27,000feet in 1.2 minutes?
Now we all know what happened to Ta183. This plane was BUILT by the Russians and WAS the basis for Mig15. In fact they built several Ta183s and they arrived at the final Mig15.
The F86 does not use any sort of Me262 wing. However it is a 100% fact that the intial North American F86 was a conventional straight wing design much like the F80. the NA engineeers then added a swept wing design they got from German records/experiments on swept wing technology conducted during WW2. This wing added something like 100mph to the F86 top speed. This made it a useful and competitive plane vs the Mig15 later in Korea. The early F86 wing is nearly a direct copy in wing platform of and use of slats as some Messerschmitt design studies for "1946" LW fighters. Again the use of German swept wing technology is a fact in F86 development, the North American designers freely admit this. I dont see why some diehards on the BBS have trouble with such things now and in the past.
As for LW designs being "duds" please take a look the Bell X5.....
And obviously the P51 and P47 were design duds and stupid designs because nobdy kept refining and developing them after the war...... Right Seeker? Guess what man nobody cared about land based prop fighters anymore.
Now Karnak many of the Metor fanatics wanna compare Meteor to 262. This just isnt a possible comparison. 262 is just so different than Metor in its actual combat use and performance that the two share little in common and should not be compared at all. Thats why they distort.
And again you show a talent in saying what i mean a lil better than I do it. Meteor is less important in WW2 than the 262.
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If nobody was developing prop designs in the early jet era, then logic dictates the P-51-H, the Bear cat and the Spitefull should all be in AH?
I thought I did mention that the Russians did indeed steal the Ta 183 and fit it with decent (British) engines, but you're right, the 262 was an outmoded design nobody in their right mind would touch when the Meteor was available.
As for the Jug, well, only an American (or a scared Luftwaffel) could ever consider that single engined mud mover a "fighter".
What was the name of that dinky little prop job you boys used in French Indo China?
What did happen to the Fw? People seemd perfectly happy to continue Me109 development post war.
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If you call the Avia C-199 (a plane wich was hated by its pilots and had 358mph topspeed), or the Buchon (a modified spanish 109 with worse general performance) 109 "developments", then I dont take your judgement as a good one. They were "adaptations" of existing cells with existing engines, for third rated air forces (or desperately short of planes ones, as the IAF).
I know that your message is a sad and pathetic troll, but Just FYI, I'll tell you why did the 109 saw some ...ahem..."Development"...after WWII.
Czechoslovakia had a couple of factories wich were building 109 airframes, but had no DB engine factories. They had, though a big stock of Jumo-211s, so they put the Ju211 in the 109G airframe. Why?. Because they had no other plane at hand to build and sell.
Spain had a licence for building 109Gs. After WWII and up to the late 50s, Spain was isolated because its fascist regime (franco). So Spain could not get new planes easily. All it was available was the national production of Hispano aero engines and 109 airframes. There was no DB produtcion in spain, so the Buchon was first built with Hispano-suiza engines, and when they became available, with Merlins.
Why wasnt the Fw190 built? because no neutral nation was awarded a licence to build it during the war, and because the production of the airframes were widely dispersed around germany, but not out from it. Czechoslovakia and Spain could build 109 airframes because they had the factories to do it. But no 190 factory was ever located out from Germany. I'm quite sure that the IAF would've loved to have some 190s instead of the toejamty Mezecs during the 1948 war.
Why wasnt the 190 copied by the victorious nation?...why should they do it?. They took the best design features of the 190 and they adopted them into their own designs. The prop plane technology was already a dead end anyway.
Why wasnt the Me262 or the He162 copied?. The Me262 WAS copied by the russians; the americans and British took the best design features of the plane (the wing being the most prominent example) and got them into their own designs. It would be idiotic to say the least to replace their own indigenous projects with a foreign design; it would be not worth the cost. The russians did it, because when the war stopped their jet technology&research was very limited to say the least.
Add to that, the fact that after V-day and until the Korean war,the Western nations went into a major disarmament. Why should they start building a German design?. There were several ground breaking planes to build, including the amazing Go-229 (wich was going to be by far the best thing flying in 1946), yet they didnt do it. The reasons are pretty evident and plain to see, even for someone like you, who doesnt want to see them.