Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Brooke on January 20, 2009, 06:15:55 PM
-
Hello, FSO folks.
FSO's have excellent levels of participation and regular attendance by many squads. I was wondering if I could get some feedback or suggestions with regard to increasing the scenario player base.
FSO players, is there a reason why you regularly play in FSO's but not in scenarios?
FSO squads, what would it take for you to regularly participate in scenarios in addition to FSO's?
Many thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions.
-
FSOs are easily planned around and are always going on. They generate and maintain an enthusiasm.
Scenarios are months apart, lately down to 2 per year at best.
Run more scenarios, there is no reason, other than staffing at the scenario CM team level, why you cannot have one scenario being ran, another getting COs lined up and rules finalized, and a third in planning. A scenario every other month could be done that way. But again, you have to have enough people to manage them without burnout. You already know my opinion on the CO situation. :)
-
I would fly in scenarios if we had one every night.
Actually, if there was a way to have scenarios 3 nights a week (FSO on Friday @ 11pm EST, a scenario on Monday @ 10pm, and a scenario at 9pm on Weds). That is when there are peak numbers of players. Obviously, we'd want to keep the Sunday campagin for our Euro players, and if possible have one of those US nightly scenarios mirrored earlier in the day of the same day.
As it is.... I can only make the FSO and maybe another 1 or so throughout the week.
-
FSO players, is there a reason why you regularly play in FSO's but not in scenarios?
The hardest factor for me is the time. 3PM EST on any day of the week is hard to do for me and from what I have seen, my squad as well.
I personally have debated this over and over with countless CMs back when I was the lead of the Scenario Team. It's one of the main reasons we started the SNS event. Move a Scenario to Monday at 7 to 11PM EST and you my friend will have as much squad participation as FSO does.
Another possibility you may want to look into is building a Scenario Roster entirely from Squads, then later open single player registration.
-
The hardest factor for me is the time. 3PM EST on any day of the week is hard to do for me
+1
Usually make the scenarios held during the winter months, but other than that 3pm on a Saturday not likely to find me able to be at my computer for a few hours. 8pm-till would work for me most nights.
-
I understand. The problem, though, with anything other than about 3 pm Eastern is it then precludes participation except for people in the US. It's a dilemma.
-
I have the same issue with them. I love them, have been in a few, but 3pm on Saturday causes some wife ack as well as other family conflicts. Not to mention that I was up until 1am or so on Friday night for FSO. If I was single, I would be at all of them, but Saturday and Sunday I try to keep as family days until the kids go to bed.
-
I understand. The problem, though, with anything other than about 3 pm Eastern is it then precludes participation except for people in the US. It's a dilemma.
Yeah, JG11 has two members who live in Europe, and the current Friday night FSO time is not easy for them. Brooke, maybe if you were to alternate the Scenarios between USA-time and Euro-time slots? Personally, I had a great time flying in that first Rangoon a long time back, and was looking forward to more, but RL (i.e., Saturday afternoon obligations) has prevented me from signing up.
-
I understand. The problem, though, with anything other than about 3 pm Eastern is it then precludes participation except for people in the US. It's a dilemma.
Then perhaps scenarios need to meet in the middle to form a combination of Frames from Europe and the US.
For example a frame could start at 3PM EST, last until 5PM EST then start a second frame at 7PM EST. The results would be compiled together.
-
FSO players, is there a reason why you regularly play in FSO's but not in scenarios?
I intentionally skipped the Rangoon scenario because of the substitutions. However, I did fly every BoB frame because it seemed like a well designed setup, but in retrospect the rescues degraded the event (undermined the goal of landing, decreased the importance of SA): one pilot was shot down 5 times in a single frame. In the future I would think twice about another scenario with rescues.
FSO squads, what would it take for you to regularly participate in scenarios in addition to FSO's?
Less prep-time from the log in deadline to when you actually get airborne; no substitutions; maximum of one rescue per frame.
-
Several in my squad enjoy scenarios and the planning that goes with them. For me personally I have had little enjoyment in them. More than once I flew around for two hours and never saw an enemy aircraft, let alone pull the trigger. Also Saturday’s are not the best time for me. Unless the basic design is changed I doubt Scenarios would ever really appeal to me personally.
In FSO I know I will see action, I get to fly with all my squadies, and that I only have one life. Can’t get much better than that. ;)
-
Saturday afternoon is rough on most family men. Also FSO moves more rapidly 3/4 weeks a month.
Also with each frame there is a new CIC and a new plan all with the same intentions. The leadership are designated to a very few and the squads usually use there most qualified or the most willing running the show.
FSO becomes an addiction, the rush of the few seconds of combat is better then anything that MA can give.
FSO is also the closest thing to what it was like for the men more like boys back in the war. We reenact the battles as possible to the conditions that the men suffered through in WW2.
-ElD
-
I'd love to do FSO, but I have to work every Friday night. I wish there was an FSO like event earlier in the day, or on Wednesdays.
That said, the biggest reason I think FSO is more popular is because few want to fly with people they don't know. The squad unit is much stronger than any bond you'd find artificially created by scenario enrollment software.
I'm of mixed opinion, I've made some good friendships flying with some people I don't know but I understand others' reluctance.
-
Daddog I understand your problem with not seeing action in a short time. But that is the way it happened in reality. Sometimes you get more action then you can handle also. For instance in the Scenario Operation Husky I flew a C47 for 2 hours and 15 mins and accomplished nothing. Volunteers were requested to fly the C47 and I volunteered. I left my P38G to help the Allies accomplish our goals. I got shot down twice just before landing the troops for a capture. C'est la Vie!
The virtual reality of a well designed and planned Scenario is unbeatable. It places me in time, in an aircraft of that time, in a squadron that
actually saw combat. Most people lose sight of what the Scenario is about. It is the immersion. Virtually placing yourself into that young pilots skin and aircraft and experiencing virtually what he might have felt and accomplished. The directed teamwork of a good Scenario is unbeatable. FSOs are almost the same.
The MA as someone so wisely put it is for the masses. It's more of an added attraction for me. It is fun, but seeing RAF Spitfire IXs attacking a formation of Lancasters is totally out of the realm of virtual reality. Or for that matter USAAF P47s and P51s in a one on one didn't
happen very often did it? ;)
I would venture to say in the combat over Europe or the PAC for that matter some sorties just came home empty handed. Some saw so much action they didn't return. So saying that you were bored because of no action is really missing what the Scenario is about. It is History. It is the closest thing Aces High has to offer as a flight sim to virtual reality. That is why I am here. Before this tour I flew very little in the MA. Why? Gameplay and a complete lack of virtual reality. I have the month of January off so I've got to participate in the MA more. And the more I logged into the MA the more I realized why I curtailed my flying in the MA previously. Very little virtual realities in the two MAs. The late and early War arenas have small populations and the same problem as the MA aircraft vs. aircraft. Axis and Allies arena has the setup but what...sometimes only 3 people are there.
So think about the statement you made.....yup....it could be boring...maybe for awhile. But the thrill of hearing over the VOX "Bogies!"
Two o'clock high! they're 190s! And then it starts! That is what makes Scenarios my home in Aces High.
BTW having a Scenario on a weeknight Mon - Thurs would kill participation. People work the next day and would curtail differing time zones
participation.
Hajo
-
it is the timing of the scenarios. make them Sat night.
-
As much as our friends from Europe bring to the game, the question has to be are Scenarios bringing more fun to more people in their current time and day or would they benefit from a different time and day.
If you put them on a weeknight there is no good time. Later than 9pm starts to be a problem for east coast fliers, while that is but 6pm for the west coasties.
If you move it the best time is Saturday evening.
Also FSOs are going to have more action because they are designed that way. Each frame is set up to ensure a battle, typically 4 locations to defend and 4 to attack for each side. Not all FSOs are historically accurate, but most give the players a good sense of action at that time and location depicted. Which is exactly what they are supposed to do.
A scenario is to be a historically accurate battle (within the bounds of the current gaming engine), with historical units, airfield locations, objectives and all the other tidbits which bring people like HAJO their immersion. A good scenario design ensures that there will be action. A scenario does allow the different sides to make their own decisions on what they hope to accomplish each frame. But good CO with the motivation to maximize the experience for the players (on both sides) can go a long way in a scenario to keep it real and ensure that everyone has a good time. But there are those who let their obsession with winning get in the way of the enjoyment, then you see gaming of the event and everyone suffers.
-
I would venture to say in the combat over Europe or the PAC for that matter some sorties just came home empty handed. Some saw so much action they didn't return. So saying that you were bored because of no action is really missing what the Scenario is about. It is History.
I understand that Hajo. I understand quite well that 8 flights out of 10 resulted in long boring flights without action, but that will not build a popular event no matter how close to history you get.
By far the majority of players who enjoy events want to fly with friends, engage and shoot down enemy aircraft, and fly in some kind of historical setting. That is how FSO has been designed from day one. You may say Scenarios are designed much the same way, but they are not. Not by a long shot. There are fundamental differences in their design and that IMHO is why they are not as popular as FSO. From his post above Fencer understand those differences.
These comments are not intended to slam Scenarios so please don’t take them that way. I am just answering the questions and responding to comments straight forward. FSO’s and Scenarios are very different animals and I have always fought hard against any element of Scenarios being injected into FSO. I fully understand why FSO is much more popular, but I am not so sure those that love Scenarios always do. This thread, is in part, evidence to that.
-
So the question is...do we want to turn Scenarios into shooting galleries for quick gratification? I understand the point about your squadmates wishing to fly with them etc. There is nothing preventing your squad or any squad for that matter flying in the same squadron in a Scenario. When I've had opportunity I've recruited who I wanted to be in my squadron in a Scenario. They were usually squadmates and friends I've made through the many years in participating in events in AW and Aces High.
Dad I've had some boring flights in an FSO also. No action. We were given an assignment to defend and nothing came into our area.
I've had a great deal of fun participating in both scenarios and fso. I'm happy that most times in both events I've had great fights and a lot of fun.
And Dad...I didn't' take it as a slam on Scenarios. Just thought I'd present a viewpoint you might not have considered.
Also I might add the time that a Scenario starts would probably be a large factor of course of participation.
-
I agree with daddog, any event without action, or one where you peddle the hamster cage for two hours only to see a horde come in and end your day isn't one I call enjoyable, yet I absolutely love scenarios. IMO Hajo and Fencer have put too much emphasis on the historical aspects in this thread, and shown too little emphases on the fun game-play of a balanced and well designed scenario.
-
Me an my guys like the friday nights. Perfect night, and perfect time , no matter what time zone.... Would try for tuesdays for sceanarios. Alot of people dont like the Titanic Tuesday format. Maybe a good night for you....... good luck.. Tuk151
-
What I wanted to know was why there are many folks who play in FSO's who don't play in scenarios.
90% of responses are that it is because of the time slot -- so I have my answer.
To address some of the other discussion: scenarios attempt to create a realistic battle while taking into account playability. Flying around for 2 hours seeing no enemy is dull and is not a goal of scenarios or FSO's. Nevertheless, it has happened to me -- rarely -- in both scenarios and FSO's. The risk of it happening is probably greater in scenarios, but the goal is for it not to happen, and occurance of it causes discussion and possible design adjustments if that particular scenario is run again.
-
I agree with daddog, any event without action, or one where you peddle the hamster cage for two hours only to see a horde come in and end your day isn't one I call enjoyable, yet I absolutely love scenarios. IMO Hajo and Fencer have put too much emphasis on the historical aspects in this thread, and shown too little emphases on the fun game-play of a balanced and well designed scenario.
Funny, thats not what I thought I said. A good scenario design ensures there will be action. There is no reason to take a historical event, turn it into a scenario and bore the crap out of people. There is every reason to take a historical event, look at what action occured, recreate that action, and present it as a portion of the battle.
I could do a heck of a scenario for Bodenplatte, I am sure Stampf and his guys would love to fly it! But I doubt the Allies would. Yet that battle is perfect for a snapshot. You have to choose the events you are trying to recreate. Just because a battle is famous and can be recreated historically does not mean that it should be. Midway comes to mind for one. Now in DGS action was the entire battle, after we hauled 120 bombers to 22k. :) I as Allied CO could have tried to evade the Luftwaffe, tricked them, left the northern guys hanging for 3 hours and ran all the bombers against southern targets etc.. But as I said, a CO has a responsibility to play it straight and ensure that everyone on BOTH sides enjoys the event.
-
Easycor....then what is a flight sim for? Scenarios simulate a battle in WWII. We are simulated Pilots who participated in that battle.
If it weren't for those battles we would have what? Made up Scenarios? I've had more fun in Scenarios then any aspect of this game.
FSO comes in a close second. Since we base our Scenarios on Historical Battles there will be fights, and plenty of them.
If we go to far to the extreme of making them for fun only then why have scenarios? Methinks the fights encountered or not encountered
have a lot to do with the COs orders for the day. Same thing happened during WWII. Sometimes you've called it right, sometimes not.
I would not participate in Scenarios at all if there were no History involved. And if we make them for fun only...I might as well go to the
MA's. Or Axis vs allied. History is what our scenarios are based on.
-
My point is that you can have both history and fun. Scenarios are fun, most of the time, but by stressing only the history, I don't think the fun comes across. It's also the case that some rides in any given scenario are going to be a tough assignment, and that the experienced scenario player or FSO guy will spot it going in. Our FSO guys should feel right at home in a scenario, and they should check out the rules, I think they're still in the draft stage atm, and if this one looks interesting, jump in and get your feet wet.
-
Easy agree with you about fun. Fencer pointed out the Cos have a lot to do with that in their planning.
I've had as much fun in scenarios as FSOs mostly because they are historically based, and when you run into a fight lookout.
BoB, DGS were a hoot. Can be bored for 40 mins, then all of a sudden 20 to 25 enemy showup and the next 5 to 10 mins. is a
swirling fight.
-
Dad I've had some boring flights in an FSO also. No action. We were given an assignment to defend and nothing came into our area.
Rgr Hajo. Me too. But the difference is when FSO is working as it should that should never happen. Everyone knows what to attack and what to defend. In may of the past Scenario designs you have one side trying to out plan the other. For those over looking the giant map moving the chess pieces that can be pretty exciting, but those that have sorties without an enemy in sight it is pretty boring.
Sounds like You, Fencer and others feel confidant that Scenarios can be designed so lack of action is never a problem. I think you can.
All moot I guess. Brook has decided it is a time slot issue, not a design issue.
-
All moot I guess. Brook has decided it is a time slot issue, not a design issue.
I think it would be more accurate to say, "The majority of players feel that it is a time issue, not a design issue." I'm not deciding things here -- I'm just listening to what people are telling me. (Also, I didn't consider it moot, as I addressed it.)
There were 12 people who responded so far. 8 said time slot was the issue. One said lack of action (design) was an issue. One said substituting aircraft was an issue. One said the issue was lack of it being based around MA squads. One said that frequency of running was the issue.
This is all good and useful feedback.
I thank people for their input so far :aok -- and welcome more to come.
-
Time slot & Time commitment. First, the time they are ran is really bad for me. Second is that for the majority of FSOs, I read the objectives, read the orders, and maybe spend a bit of time flying the assigned aircraft, but not usually. So my time invested to fly with my squad is very little. Typically registering for a scenario, you are being asked agree to a certain level of commitment/time (practice, team meetings if on command staff, etc).
My $0.02
-
Brook you said...
90% of responses are that it is because of the time slot -- so I have my answer.
Then you said...
I'm not deciding things here -- I'm just listening to what people are telling me.
:huh
I took your first statement as a decision when you said you had your answer. With less than 15 people responding, frankly I was surprised you concluded you had your answer since hundreds participate in Scenarios.
I will now stay out of it now and let others who participate in Scenarios much more frequently than I do respond. :salute
-
There were 12 people who responded so far. 8 said time slot was the issue. One said lack of action (design) was an issue. One said substituting aircraft was an issue. One said the issue was lack of it being based around MA squads. One said that frequency of running was the issue.
One of those also said that there were too many rescues in the recent BoB. One rescue is enough.
-
FSO is easy for me to attend. I normally work Saturday afternoons. I have flown 1 scenario frame in 5 years due to this. Yet I have only missed a handful of FSO frames in that time.
-
Move it to Saturday night and I can get some people in it. I believe the LCA would fly more if you pushed it back to the evening and keep squaddies together.
-
The last two scenarios have closed off registration (full) and it was made quite clear that it wasn't going to be extended.
The numbers were over-subscribed at registration.
In both cases I was aware of a number of people that wished to register. Some went through the walk-on ritual. Some didn't.
FSO is a squad based event. Generally speaking, there is no emphasis on squad participation in scenarios, rather an acknowledgement that you might fly together if the CO can arrange it and you request it. It's pretty evident that people like to fly together as squads. Last week's FSO attendance was ....?
It wasn't that long ago that scenario attendance was somewhat larger than squad ops. If you wish to transfer that growth in fso to scenarios perhaps you may need to look at allowing them all to register for the event instead of stopping them at the first fence;
and encouraging CO's to recruit FSO squads with an eye to keeping them together within the event would also help.
Timing of the events is already about as lousy as it can get for Antipodeans but we still roll up. Any change there would probably be viewed as an improvement. It doesn't seem a priority at this point though.
-
Timing of the events is already about as lousy as it can get for Antipodeans but we still roll up. Any change there would probably be viewed as an improvement. It doesn't seem a priority at this point though.
I've often times wondered if you EVER sleep bro! :aok
Drano