Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Scenario General => Topic started by: Anaxogoras on January 23, 2009, 10:14:00 AM
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I haven't decided which side to fly for, if I decide to fly, but two of the aircraft/vehicle selections seem dubious and slanted toward the Allies:
1. The 110C would not be in service in Africa in 1943. Rather, the 110E or F would have been present, both of which had upgraded engines and high-velocity MG 151 cannon, not the low velocity MGFF. When we run this setup in FSO the 110G is available. I hate substitutions, but in this case the 110G is the lesser of evils.
2. The Firefly did not serve in Africa, and it will decimate the Panzer IV over open terrain because it can kill at long range. At distances around 1200 yards and more the Panzer IV shells usually bounce off the Firefly's armor, while a single Firefly shell can kill outright. In the AvA we've subbed the T-34/76 for earlier American/British tanks and that seems to be a good compromise.
Thank you for considering these concerns.
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Main differences in the D and E models were mostly exterior support for more drop tanks or weapons. I believe they retained the MG/FFM all the way up to the early G models. The F model had the same underwing stores options as the G-models but not the internal guns. While the F did jump to 1300hp engines, the G has almost 1500hp, and the C-4b model we have now (according to the forum rants) is slightly up-engined from the normal 1100hp models anways.
Given the unbalancing factors of 2x 30mm with 300 rounds of ammo to go with them, the liberally generous flight model of the current 110s in-game, I think putting in the G is a bad call.
It would be like subbing a P-47D-11 for a P-40N or something. Faster, more power, better weapons, etc.
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I believe they retained the MG/FFM all the way up to the early G models.
You seem to be right about this, my bad.
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It would be interesting to have an early G-model in-game, with 4x 7mms and 2x MG151/20s, though. It could be useful in situations where 2x30mm is major overkill, eh?
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Here are Fencer's thoughts on the aspect of the tanks:
"Fireflies . . . Would rather have 75mm Shermans. But here is why I think they are essential
1. This is an open terrain. You give the Allies T34/76ss and the Axis will set back at 3000yds in their Tigers and pick them off using the MkIVs as a screen.
2. The Allies had a huge superiority in Artilery. Arty was what stopped the Axis at Kasserine. The gunners lined up lowered their tubes and shot thousands of shells on the Afrkia Korp. We don't have Arty. So we compenstate by giving the Allies a better tank, and we compensate for THAT by giving the Axis alot more Tigers than they actually had available.
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His third reason was that he felt we wouldn't get allied tankers unless they have something better than T-34/76 vs. Panzers and Tigers.
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The other aspect is that there was a Tunisia FSO run September, 2008. The writeup says that they used Shermans and Panzers, and that one proved to be quite well balanced and fun for the GV'ers.
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By the way, I very much appreciate folks posting any concerns here. It is very useful, as this is a new scenario design.
Having folks who do a lot of GV'ing and tank battling look it over and see what they think is especially useful. We want a large, thrilling tank battle -- and so we need it to appeal to GV'ers so that they sign up in numbers.
We are aiming for about 30 GV'ers per side so that we can have a 60-tank ground battle. But it would be great to have even more in the ground war.
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Here are Fencer's thoughts on the aspect of the tanks:
1. This is an open terrain. You give the Allies T34/76ss and the Axis will set back at 3000yds in their Tigers and pick them off using the MkIVs as a screen.
Couldn't the same be said for the Allies and their Fireflys?
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How does the T34/85 stack up? Less powerful gun than the Sherman, right? Would it be a good sub, or not? (I don't know too much about this one, I don't GV enough to know how it compares to other in-game tanks)
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How it went with the FSO on the Tunisia terrain is an important data point.
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Couldn't the same be said for the Allies and their Fireflys?
No, the Allies don't have MKIVs.
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Cant they use their M8s as distractions?
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Fwiw, my concerns have been assuaged. :D
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Fwiw, my concerns have been assuaged. :D
Sounds good. Many thanks for the discussion.
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There was also this from Baumer:
Brooke,
I was a little surprised at the 12th AF aircraft distribution and was wondering if it was done to make people happy? Specifically the P-40 was the most common fighter with the 12thAF at the time and it's hardly used.
Looking at the Air Force Historical Research Agency website, under WWII data look at the following table;
http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/aafsd/aafsd_pdf/t090.pdf (http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/aafsd/aafsd_pdf/t090.pdf)
I drew up a table showing the comparative number's (keeping the 12th AF at 80 planes) to show the difference between the historical numbers and the current scenario rules.
(http://332nd.org/dogs/baumer/ScenarioTable3.jpg)
It's pretty easy to see that the P-40 is under represented and the Spitfires are over represented.
This is just an observation and not meant to be critical in any way.
Thanks,
Baumer
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Baumer -- that is an awesome resource you found. I thank you for it and will add it to my list of useful references! :aok
I have some thoughts, but first I'll give Fencer's.
Fencer's thoughts on the aspects you bring up mainly involve the following two aspects.
One is that this scenario is for a particular portion of North Africa but does not include the whole Mediterranean area or even the whole African area. He has the allied order of battle for the area over which we are running for June, 1943, and it shows a lot fewer P-40's than in the referenced chart.
The other is indeed one of playability and balance. We have the axis less outnumbered than it was in real life during this time because it's very hard to balance the playability of a scenario if the side numbers get to be too different. As a result, the relative percentage of P-40's was made lower to compensate.
My thoughts were initially like yours. I figured there would be a higher percentage of P-40's and discussed it with Fencer. But I agree with his thoughts on balance. Also there are still two larger squadrons of P-40's -- they are still a major presence -- so I am pacified. :)
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One other thing while I'm thinking about it. It wasn't asked yet, but it might be. (I'm a B-24 jealot, so I would ask. :) )
We don't have any B-24's in this scenario while the Mediterranean area had lots of B-24's.
However, of B-17's and B-24's in the area, the B-24's were preferentially used (because of their longer range) to hit targets in Italy, and the B-17's were preferentially used to go after targets in and around Tunisia. So, it's because of the area of the fight we are concentrating on that we have only B-17's.
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Great find by Baumer! Anything that makes this more historically accurate is awesome! :aok
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Brooke,
I'm glad you like the source, it has many great tables to look over. I especially like the one about ordnance per month by theater, very interesting.
Here are a few more source's to give additional background (I believe you have a few of these listed with the rules all ready).
-US Army Air Forces in World War II Combat Chronology 1941-1945 ( I actually have a paper copy but you can download it as a pdf.
http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/wwii_combat_chronology.pdf (http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/wwii_combat_chronology.pdf)
-US Army Air Forces in World War II, Volume 2 Europe: Torch to Pointblank August 1942 to December 1943 (large pdf)
http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/aaf_wwii-v2.pdf (http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/aaf_wwii-v2.pdf)
-Aerial Interdiction, Air Power and the Land Battle in Three American Wars (Good data on the North Africa campaign)
http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/aerial_interdiction.pdf (http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/aerial_interdiction.pdf)
To your other points;
I can understand combining planes like the B-17 and B-24 (or the B-25 and B-26) to a single unit for the sake of squad size in the scenario.
I don't have any definitive data sources for the Luftwaffe or the Italian Air Force, but most documents I have, tend to say the Allies had a 3-1 or 4-1 numerical advantage during this time frame. As a potential Axis pilot in this scenario, I would find that a very daunting prospect! So I can see creating some artificial balance for the benefit of the scenario.
The P-40
Looking at the information for June of 1943 I came up with the following numbers;
Model Number % of total 80 aircraft equivalent #
- B-17 269 7.94% 6
- B-24 192 5.67% 5
- B-25 437 12.89% 10
- B-26 278 8.20% 7
- A-20 166 4.90% 4
- P-38 514 15.16% 12
- P-39 347 10.24% 8
- P-40 717 21.15% 17
- P-51 290 8.55% 7
- Other 180 5.31% 4
I still have to disagree with the aircraft distribution within the 12th Air Force. Looking at the data referenced above, it is clear that the P-40 bore the brunt of fighter operations throughout the North Africa campaign. As you can see, there was a very significant build-up in the Mediterranean theater between February 1943 (1,521 1st line combat aircraft) and June 1943 (3,390 1st line combat aircraft). So I can appreciate a reduction to the percentage of P-40's, however it's still the single most numerous fighter within the USAAF in theater. I'd be glad to review any material that has different numbers to see if there's something I've misunderstood.
Baumer
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Not too sure I like having what I replied, paraphrased.. so here is the direct quote.
Krusty handled Gavagai's post quite well on the 110-C4.
As to Baumer's question.. (btw for the record I really like Baumer, he's a good troop)
There are several ways to answer this. In no particular order..
1. This is not a Snapshot or FSO where percentages of aircraft are used.
2. The numbers he quotes for P-40s in the Mediterranean show 556 for February. That is almost 14 fighter groups of aircraft. There were not 14 US Fighter Groups in the entire theater equiped with P-40s, in fact there were not 14 FGs of US Fighters! In June, where I have a complete OOB, when his same chart shows 717 P-40s there were 5 Groups or 15 Squadrons (325th FG, 57th FG, 79th FG, 33rd FG, 324th FG). Seems like alot but that would be about 240 planes. Where are the other 477? Depots? Training? On board transports? On their way to the South Pacific? Dunno. You cannot use numbers in a list of "airplanes on hand" because that could be the entire African Continent and definately included the entire Mediterranean from Morocco to Iraq. They may not even be assigned to units!
3. This is a recreation of a portion or a campaign not the whole campaign. There are oodles of units and aircraft which are not included because of playability, lack of suitable AH2 A/C, lack of contribution, or just plain not essential to what we are recreating.
4. Enjoyment and balance. The Allies outnumbered the Axis by better than 2 to 1 in aircraft. The scenario does not duplicate that. What it does do is allow the best aircraft for the Luftwaffe available, and a corresponding sample of the Allied aircraft (chosen to maintain a balance against the best the Luftwaffe have which will be in equal numbers) to give the flavor of the battle. If we were to use percentages for aicraft assignment, then we would definately have to reduce the Luftwaffe to their in theater strength relative to the Allies numbers. It matters not if there were 556 P-40s when 532 (for argument's sake) were either parked in Morocco, straffing the crap out of Germans along the ridges of Northern Tunisia, flying patrols to Sardinia, wrapped up in plastic in the hold of the USS Swayback, passing through to India, or otherwise occupied outside of the battle.
I hope I have answered his question, I did not take it to be critical and hope that the above answers will be taken in the same mannor.
Now, Fireflies... Hate em. Would rather have 75mm Shermans. But here is why I think they are essential
1. This is an open terrain. You give the Allies T34/76ss and the Axis will set back at 3000yds in their Tigers and pick them off using the MkIVs as a screen.
2. The Allies had a huge superiority in Artilery. Arty was what stopped the Axis at Kasserine. The gunners lined up lowered their tubes and shot thousands of shells on the Afrkia Korp. We don't have Arty. So we compenstate by giving the Allies a better tank, and we compensate for THAT by giving the Axis alot more Tigers than they actually had available.
3. You are going to get German tankers no matter what. With a Sherman (Firefly) you will get Allied Tankers because they will think that they have a shot at winning.
If you copy this to Baumer, please let him know he can email me with any further questions as well and I appreciate his input.
Cheers,