Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Jebus on January 27, 2009, 11:17:33 AM
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I was thinking about this for a couple of days now.
On a scale what plane is the easiest to learn and which one is the hardest to learn. I am talking about being good at the plane and not just taking it up and landing kills.
On the easy side I would put the spit series of aircraft ther.
I am having trouble figuring out the hardest one to learn. Is it the P-38 because of its size, the jug because of its weight, or the 190 because it cant turn.
I am not talking about taking a plane up and landing some kills (anyone can do that), I am talking about knowing what the plane can and cant do... becoming a master at the plane if you will.
Easy Hard
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Spit ????
Sorry about the typing I had hand surgery and it is hard for me to type.
<S>
Jebus
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Spit easiest
190 series
Jugs, 38s
P39s P40s
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spit N1K LA7 P-51 F4Us Yak P-38 P-47 109 P-39 TA-152 P-40b
Not perfect but what I came up with after a couple minutes.
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The Hurricane is also one of the easier fighters, despite its slow speed. The 190 series is also not too hard to learn as it gives quick and obvious feedback if you do something wrong. ;) Otherwise Mensa's list is pretty good.
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spit N1K LA7 P-51 F4Us Yak P-38 P-47 109 P-39 TA-152 P-40b
Not perfect but what I came up with after a couple minutes.
P40's arnt that hard :D
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The Tiger is a nightmare to get airbourne... guess thats why they were all grounded in the war ... :rolleyes:
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Go to any fat, red, darbar, and you will see the same planes ad infinitum: P51D, LA7, Spit 16, KI-84, P51D, LA7, Spit 16, KI-84,P51D, LA7, Spit 16, KI-84, P51D, LA7, Spit 16, KI-84....yadi-yadi-yadi....
But...
Some others have mentioned in other threads...but you worry a bit more when you see an NME in:
P-40
P-39
Yak-9T
Yak-9U
109-E
Something about folks being able to master those planes that gives you a bit more of a twinge...
You don't know if they are just too new to know what they are doing? Or...are they insidiously evil, and fly those birds like it was part of them?
I've seen both. Hat's off and a :salute to those who have mastered them!
ROX
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Easy <------------------------------------------------------Middle-----------------------------------------------------------> Hardest
Spit LA YAK FU4 FM2 P-38 p-39 P-47 262
Hurr P-51 Moss JU-87 109
Nik F6F 110 190
AM62, 5
KI-84
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On a scale what plane is the easiest to learn and which one is the hardest to learn.
I'd put the Zekes and Spits (except for the Spit 14) on the easy end.
I have yet, in lo, these many years, figured out how to fly either the P-40B or the FW-190A8 effectively (as real fighter airplanes, not as one-trick b&z machines), so I'd put those two at the opposite end.
Very close to the hardest I place the Corsair and P-38, which are great planes but which take a fair amount of practice and insight to fly well.
- oldman
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OLDMAN is the easyest person to get along with, and shoot down, heheh
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Learn ACM first and then worry about what plane to fly.
and the P-38 isn't a very hard plane to fly.
ack-ack
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and the P-38 isn't a very hard plane to fly.ack-ack
You've just forgotten.
Not pulling high Gs with flap use...heavy rudder in the turns...double Immelmans...wingovers....ther e are a lot of tricks to using the 38 well, and until you get them it's just a big target.
- oldman
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Very close to the hardest I place the Corsair
The flaps on the F4U totally eliminate it from the "most challenging" end of the spectrum. Even total F4U nooblets like me can fly it well enough to stand-up 1vs1 against furballing wonders like the N1K and Spit16.
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The flaps on the F4U totally eliminate it from the "most challenging" end of the spectrum.
F4Us are indeed hard to master for a new player. It needs experience & some good judgement to succesfully play it's strengths, to know when to use flaps and when not, and if, how much of them. In a F4U ist easy to burn your energy but relatively hard to get it back, being not in the top-notch acceleration crowd.
No comparison to planes like Spits and N1ks whose strenghts are more easily "accessible" to the newcomer - less things to consider in fight, and easier to have success in.
Only past the beginner stage, a player can begin to appreciate a F4U's more "subtle" advantages.
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Easy <------------------------------------------------------Middle-----------------------------------------------------------> Hardest
Spit LA YAK F4U FM2 P-38 p-39 P-47 262
Hurr P-51 Moss JU-87 109
Nik F6F 110 190
A6M2, 5 C205 Ki-61
KI-84
Added some planes
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I was thinking about this for a couple of days now.
On a scale what plane is the easiest to learn and which one is the hardest to learn. I am talking about being good at the plane and not just taking it up and landing kills.
On the easy side I would put the spit series of aircraft ther.
I am having trouble figuring out the hardest one to learn. Is it the P-38 because of its size, the jug because of its weight, or the 190 because it cant turn.
I am not talking about taking a plane up and landing some kills (anyone can do that), I am talking about knowing what the plane can and cant do... becoming a master at the plane if you will.
Easy Hard
<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Spit ????
Sorry about the typing I had hand surgery and it is hard for me to type.
<S>
Jebus
i'd say the 38's the hardest to learn, as she's not uber at anything, but does everything pretty well. she can't disengage at will, as the faster fighters can, she can't dive away as the really fast fighters can, and she can't flat turn as tight as the turners. but ya learn her, put the right hands on her controls, and she's one of the most deadly aircraft in here. it just takes time.
the 190's might not be able to turn, but can easily outrun most of what they'll encounter in the arenas. the 47's can be made to turn fairly well......redtop, and N72 come to mind in the 47's. if they get into trouble though, they have enough power to spare and disengage at will, and dive away.
just my opinions.......
<<S>>
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i'd say the 38's the hardest to learn, as she's not uber at anything, but does everything pretty well. she can't disengage at will, as the faster fighters can, she can't dive away as the really fast fighters can
What about the fact that the 38L is tied for first (with the 47N) for roll rate at 400mph? Granted, there's still compression on the elevators with the dive flaps, but the ability to change direction in a dive when other aircraft can barely roll is worth a lot. If you're only talking about the J then I would agree with what you say.
I can't help but quote hoof's old comments about the 38L in the late '90s Warbirds:
The P38L has been called in Warbirds, and rightfully so, the Super Plane. The P38L is Jack of all trades, and master of most. The P38L does practically everything well, it dives with the best of them, is fast, has excellent high altitude performance, rolls with the best of them, until beyond 275mph, where it leaves all other planes in the dust, outturns all but the Zero and Ki43, has an excellent climb rate, has one of the best and most accurate gunnery packages in the game (with the exception of Otto), and has plenty of ammunition to burn. It's only major weakness is it's huge planform, making it an easy target in some situations. Fortunately, it's exceptional roll eliminates it's predecessor's big problem of being unable to roll away when that huge planform is exposed.
Can you imagine a 38 that turns with a Spit V? :rofl
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What about the fact that the 38L is tied for first (with the 47N) for roll rate at 400mph? Granted, there's still compression on the elevators with the dive flaps, but the ability to change direction in a dive when other aircraft can barely roll is worth a lot. If you're only talking about the J then I would agree with what you say.
i was basing on the fights. we don't fight at 400 mph. i can see you point, but as the 38's diving and able to roll at 400, the pursuer is most probably already approaching 450 to 500 or so, and shooting the poopoo outta ya. i guess i should come to lw someday, and try the L.....
i was actually, only thinking in terms of the J and G........
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It is too hard to define "hard".
There are some planes which don't have all that much going for them (P-51, P-47) in terms of what they can do, but their visibility, guns, and handling are very straightforward. Then there are planes like the 109 K-4 or SpitXIV which have alot going for them in terms of performance but also quirks.
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i was basing on the fights. we don't fight at 400 mph. i can see you point, but as the 38's diving and able to roll at 400, the pursuer is most probably already approaching 450 to 500 or so, and shooting the poopoo outta ya. i guess i should come to lw someday, and try the L.....
i was actually, only thinking in terms of the J and G........
Yeah, I know the die-hards like the 38J, but the moonlighters like me appreciate the 38L's roll rate and dive flaps. :D If only the skins were olive-green...
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Yeah, I know the die-hards like the 38J, but the moonlighters like me appreciate the 38L's roll rate and dive flaps. :D If only the skins were olive-green...
well, if ya wanna surprise some people, fly the G. it doesn;t have wep. it won't outrun much of anything. once your in the low alt turnfight, you're in it till ya kill the bogy, or he kills you. but it;s FRIGGIN FUN!!!!!!!!
i still am nowhere near the skill level i'd like to be in the 38...but i've had a couple in the weeds 2v1's. i haven't survived in them, but i made the guys work much much harder than i think they thought they'd have to work to get me. :devil
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yup I like my J bomber.
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I feel that the 38 and 190s are the hardest to learn, as well as the Yak series, whereas the P-40's, 109's (especially the F), the Ki-61, and the American Navy Iron (especially the Wildcat/Hellcat) are the easiest.
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B5N2 is a really sweet primary trainer for getting to learn the controls and trying out level bombing - but not good in combat.
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Learn ACM first and then worry about what plane to fly.
and the P-38 isn't a very hard plane to fly.
ack-ack
It would help to have dual throttle for this plane though.
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spits,nikis, la las, all dweeb/easy planes
jugs, P-38, 190, F4u take skillz
-BigBOBCH
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F4Us are indeed hard to master for a new player. It needs experience & some good judgement to succesfully play it's strengths, to know when to use flaps and when not, and if, how much of them. In a F4U ist easy to burn your energy but relatively hard to get it back, being not in the top-notch acceleration crowd.
No comparison to planes like Spits and N1ks whose strenghts are more easily "accessible" to the newcomer - less things to consider in fight, and easier to have success in.
Only past the beginner stage, a player can begin to appreciate a F4U's more "subtle" advantages.
Quote for truth. Der uberflappen can let you get away with a lot of mistakes, but a real key to success in the F4U is knowing when to stay fast, when to dump speed, and when to cut and run. You need good SA to be able to gauge the situation quickly, and the flexibility to adapt as things change.
There's some guys out there that can drop into the middle of a furball on the deck and make it away with six or seven kills in a low-speed turning brawl, but I'd say for probably 95% of players the Corsair needs to stay moderately fast in large fights because she loses a LOT of options as airspeed drops. And of the remaining 5% above, I'd say 3-4% of them will STILL avoid an extended low-speed fight if they can. Even 1v1 the Corsair is much more of a plane that requires careful management of Energy, position and timing to set up and make the kill. Even fuel management is CRITICAL to success, especially in the -1 and -1A which have a larger fuel load (always leave more gas in the right wing than the left. 75% internal, burned to a 0 / 25 load in L/R then switching to main for the duration of the fight I find best. It helps balance the plane against torque).
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It would help to have dual throttle for this plane though.
No it wouldn't. Using a dual throttle won't give you the 'edge' over someone that doesn't use one. However, it does increase the immersion factor and let you perform some really nice looking hammer heads but that's about it.
ack-ack
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The statement about the 190 "being able to outrun most" is only applicable to the 190D. Doesn't apply to the A-5, A-8, F-8 (if you choose to furball with it) and not always with the Ta152 (about 10mph slower than 190D down low).
Much harder to take a 190A into a fight and get out alive because you can't outrun jack (or squat) unless you have 15k to dive with.
190s can be fought as fighters, not as BnZ only. I'll often fight one in the vertical until I run out of E and alt, then I'm reduced to less potent manuvers.
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It would help to have dual throttle for this plane though.
As AKAK said, there is no edge to be obtained with dual throttles, I've used mine since June of last year.
The only benefits to dual throttles is hammerheads and immersion as AKAK said, spin recovery, donuts on the runway, and the ability to compensate for a missing wing by throttling back the opposing engine.
(added a couple to AKAK's list)
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I am not talking about taking a plane up and landing some kills (anyone can do that), I am talking about knowing what the plane can and cant do... becoming a master at the plane if you will.
Easy Hard
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Spit ????
Sorry about the typing I had hand surgery and it is hard for me to type.
<S>
Jebus
I wouldn't put spit as easy to master. Flight model forgiving yes but seeing as you've said MASTER there are very few MASTER spit pilots that would kill you in an instant.
How many Really good spitfire pilots have you fought and beat recently in their ride? I'm telling you now it would be FAR from easy.
You don't learn a plane you become comfortable with it, knowing its strengths and weaknesses etc you improve as a virtual pilot, no planes are easy to master, only stick time, practice, patience and effort on the pilots side will make things easier.
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I was thinking about this for a couple of days now.
On a scale what plane is the easiest to learn and which one is the hardest to learn. I am talking about being good at the plane and not just taking it up and landing kills.
On the easy side I would put the spit series of aircraft ther.
I am having trouble figuring out the hardest one to learn. Is it the P-38 because of its size, the jug because of its weight, or the 190 because it cant turn.
I am not talking about taking a plane up and landing some kills (anyone can do that), I am talking about knowing what the plane can and cant do... becoming a master at the plane if you will.
Easy Hard
<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Spit ????
Sorry about the typing I had hand surgery and it is hard for me to type.
<S>
Jebus
I am confused. What do you mean easy to learn? They all will fly them selves in this game. ACM is ACM and not really related to the type of plane. Some will perform a move better than others but you cannot change that. So, what does it mean easy or hard to learn? What is easy about the spit? Easy to turn? Same in every other plane. You pull the stick back and they turn. Try to follow a 109 or P51 that started faster than you in a Spit and see how easy the spit is then.
So, easy to learn what?
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Go to any fat, red, darbar, and you will see the same planes ad infinitum: P51D, LA7, Spit 16, KI-84, P51D, LA7, Spit 16, KI-84,P51D, LA7, Spit 16, KI-84, P51D, LA7, Spit 16, KI-84....yadi-yadi-yadi....
ROX
Do you really see that many Ki-84's? I only start to see them pop up when either ENY is in effect or after I've been chewing up spixtweenies and they wonder how an ENY 15 plane could do it so easily.
I'd say in any full darbar that wasn't misshun based you'll see:
couple p51d's
couple niki's
couple la7's (more if it's a base defense)
mostly spit16s
odd 109s and f4u's
IMO and all.
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Do you really see that many Ki-84's? I only start to see them pop up when either ENY is in effect or after I've been chewing up spixtweenies and they wonder how an ENY 15 plane could do it so easily.
I'd say in any full darbar that wasn't misshun based you'll see:
couple p51d's
couple niki's
couple la7's (more if it's a base defense)
mostly spit16s
odd 109s and f4u's
IMO and all.
The top 5 fighters I've killed this tour:
Spit XVI: 23
P-51D: 20
La-7: 16
190D-9: 14
Ki-84: 10
I think some of the people who were in the N1K have been trying out other rides, as we've seen the N1K's usage go down since its update. Maybe some are in the Ki-84. ;)
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IMHO the spit8 is the easiest plane to learn to fly in the late war environment.
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P38 is still a mystery to me. It's the 1st plane I pick on in fight. And very quickly, I can tell if I decided aright. Most often I did.
Tough plane to learn to fly well without pointers from those who know it inside and out.
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if by "hard" you mean to KILL in. 109F4.. the assist machine, you get into the engaugement, if your lucky and they other guy doesent just run way as the tables turn, you get to saddle up and start reeling him in, for that sustained burst at sub D200 range.. of courser usually by this time, a "firendly" has spotted you and is blasting in to "hep you out".. and thus all your work is for not.
if by hard you mean to SURVIVE in.. I.E. make it home.. pretty much anything that cant top 350 on the deck.. it usually plays out as such: you come in, start gettig buisy, reach your bingo or winchester and its time to go... NOPE.. enter the LA7/51/ fast overpopular plane.. the all to familiar guy who spots you trying to egressand dives right through everyone else, ignores the folks who actually WANT to fight.. and comes after you ... and you run out of fuel evading and get pseudo-vulched as you try and ditch.
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The C-47 is the hardest to get kills in. I have had some success but not often. A couple of weeks a go I got into a fight on the deck with 2 pony Bs in a Goon. After several turns and rolls they both augered. I prefer fighting in my bomber.
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I am confused. What do you mean easy to learn? They all will fly them selves in this game. ACM is ACM and not really related to the type of plane. Some will perform a move better than others but you cannot change that. So, what does it mean easy or hard to learn? What is easy about the spit? Easy to turn? Same in every other plane. You pull the stick back and they turn. Try to follow a 109 or P51 that started faster than you in a Spit and see how easy the spit is then.
So, easy to learn what?
i define hard to learn, as knowing what to do, when to do it, and what to manuevers tro copmbine together, in what order, and when to combine them......
spits n zeeks.....you can yank and bank all day long in them. try that in a 38, or a 190, and the spit'll eat ya for lunch.
i also think the ones like the 38 are harder, because although the same acm may work, you have to watch your energy a bit closer than in other planes.
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Just my opinion here... But for the guys saying that spits are easy its all in how you fly them.
If you watch someone like Leviathn fly a spit, you can't say its "easy". If you watch a newb fly a spit, that's easy.
Survivability in any plane is easy if you fly it to its strengths. If you want to furball with an A8, that's not easy and that's not what it was built to do... Tho I have known some people to fly an A8 and make it look like it weighed half of what really did and turn better than most of the best turn fighters in the game. If you want to Bnz with a D9, that's easy. I think you get my point.
The P38 is a big target. Sure, but you just have to know when to make it a "small target". If you go for an over shot and pull straight up showing the nme your entire plane, then its a "big target". If you go for an overshot and show the nme just the side profile of the plane, you're making it a "small target".
Jugs are heavy so you have to just remember that. Forcing an overshot while in a jug makes it that much quicker. You wont scrub E as fast in an La7 like you could a Jug. Hint. Get what im getting at?
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Just my opinion here... But for the guys saying that spits are easy its all in how you fly them.
If you watch someone like Leviathn fly a spit, you can't say its "easy". If you watch a newb fly a spit, that's easy.
Survivability in any plane is easy if you fly it to its strengths. If you want to furball with an A8, that's not easy and that's not what it was built to do... Tho I have known some people to fly an A8 and make it look like it weighed half of what really did and turn better than most of the best turn fighters in the game. If you want to Bnz with a D9, that's easy. I think you get my point.
The P38 is a big target. Sure, but you just have to know when to make it a "small target". If you go for an over shot and pull straight up showing the nme your entire plane, then its a "big target". If you go for an overshot and show the nme just the side profile of the plane, you're making it a "small target".
Jugs are heavy so you have to just remember that. Forcing an overshot while in a jug makes it that much quicker. You wont scrub E as fast in an La7 like you could a Jug. Hint. Get what im getting at?
right...which is why they're harder than the spits.
i don't think anyone's saying it takes no skill to fly a spit......hell, i hate(well, love) comming up against xbrit in his spitfire, as i see him do things in that plane i couldn't dream of doing.
again, though, my reasoning was on these lines.....
when i first came in here, i did like everyone else....i jumped right into the pony, as i've loved that along with the 38 since i was a little kid. readily got my bellybutton handed to me. so in all my infinite wisdom, i jumped into the 38 o deth. hell, in AW3, i could fly it in the RR arenas on par with rocky. how much harder could it be here? go back to my statement about my results in the pony. in both rides i was lucky to last 30 seconds in a fight.
now, i jump into a spit5. i was still dying, but lasting long enough to be able to maneuver some...then maneuver into a kill position, screw it up, and die....then maneuver into a kill position, and kill. i stuck in the spit/zeek/hurris for a bit, then moved into the hellkitty. it seems to be one of the easier american rides, but still harder than the spit group. now that i got my survibility up in that ride, i jumped back into my beloved 38 o deth with its twin quisenarts hanging out there. my survivibility sucks once again, as it IS much harder to learn than the other aircraft. i'm getting there though.........and doing it without ho'ing and picking. :D
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Just my opinion here... But for the guys saying that spits are easy its all in how you fly them.
If you watch someone like Leviathn fly a spit, you can't say its "easy". If you watch a newb fly a spit, that's easy.
I do not really know any good sticks that fly the spit. The spit is so forgiving how can anyone tell. You really see what is pilot and what is plane when you get in a less forgiving aircraft..
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I think the point of 'easy' or 'hard' was in relation to a newb trying to learn how to fly and get into this game.
Thinking for a newb, the Spits are the 'easiest' to learn because, IMO, they help the pilot in many aspects of flight and combat from the getgo than do some other planes. The best word for the Spits I can think of is its 'stable', and this is a big help to a new pilot. More 'unstable' planes like the German iron are harder to learn to fly well, but their inherit instability, if managed well makes them capabile of exceptional maneuvers.
All this means, in a Spit, the newb doesn't need think about, manage or master too many things right off the bat to be able to fly passibly well, which in turn means he may stick with it longer and learn more ACM over time.
What makes Spits 'easy' to learn in-
1. The Spits feature several models with various combinations of speed, turn rate, climb rate, etc. so they matchup favorably with most planes.
2. They have the best trajectory 20mm cannons in the game so shooting might be a little easier to learn in them.
3. They retain and recover their energy very well.
4. They are a very stable gun platform.
5. Very responsive nose (rudder control) for gun shots.
6. No bad stall characteristics, and good stall recovery capability.
7. They don't have compressions issues.
8. Good cockpit visibility.
9. Good at all altitudes (XIV excepted)
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The top 5 fighters I've killed this tour:
Spit XVI: 23
P-51D: 20
La-7: 16
190D-9: 14
Ki-84: 10
I think some of the people who were in the N1K have been trying out other rides, as we've seen the N1K's usage go down since its update. Maybe some are in the Ki-84. ;)
That's a pretty small sample size. Mine are:
P51D: 125
P38 (all combined): 75
Spit XVI: 73
Spit 8: 48
A6mb2: 48
N1K2: 37
HurriC:30
Typh:30
Ki84: 25
La7:22
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Hurricane Mk1 = hard to master(not like I did)
Requires a good SA, a lot of patients, also a very good aiming/shootings is needed to make those fast but very thin firing solutions to count.
Lets do not forget the very very good energy management, to fool those over confident mid/late birds... "Sure... I'm a just a yet another 13-in-12 BoB-wannabe in HMk1 pilot... Wanna play? :angel:" :)
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i define hard to learn, as knowing what to do, when to do it, and what to manuevers tro copmbine together, in what order, and when to combine them......
spits n zeeks.....you can yank and bank all day long in them. try that in a 38, or a 190, and the spit'll eat ya for lunch.
i also think the ones like the 38 are harder, because although the same acm may work, you have to watch your energy a bit closer than in other planes.
Isnt that true for the spit and the 0 if the 38 has some speed and uses the vert?
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Isnt that true for the spit and the 0 if the 38 has some speed and uses the vert?
it is true of the spit too. my point was that the spit is easier to handle in those situations.
kinda like the difference between flying a cessna172(spit) and a twin commanche(38) the cessna is really easy to learn. it's forgiving of some mistakes. the twin commanche......not so forgiving.