Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Fury on January 08, 2001, 05:09:00 PM
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Didn't feel like hijacking this other thread, but someone made this quote in this thread
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001302.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001302.html)
"The C-Hog is not going to be perked because of how powerful it is or is not. It is going to be perked because 1 aircraft is responsible for 20% of all kills in the MA. That airplane is the F4U-1C. Because perk values are set by how popular a particular ride is, the F4U-1C's popularity is going to cause it to be unbalanced, e.g. if I kill one in my Zero I'll get WAY too many points for it. The F4U-1C is a victim of its own popularity. It has nothing to do with the whines or anything else. If the Bf109G-10 was responsible for 20% of the kills in the MA it would be on HTC's list of planes to consider perking as well."
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Is this true? The most popular plane is the one that gets perked? And as stated above, the G-10 could be perked because of it's popularity? Or the Tiffy? I always thought of perk planes as being those "too powerful for the MA, not often seen in simming, possibly not having much historical impact"-type planes. Did I miss the part where HTC has changed the definition of perk to "popular" rides?
I don't fly for perks, I don't care if I ever get to fly a perked plane, I'm just wondering where I missed the news about how a plane gets perked.
Fury
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That's a quote from me.
It is not that the most popular plane will be perked, its that a plane that is WAY disproportionately represented will get perked.
If the F4U-1C was responsible for 10% of the kills it would still be the most popular aircraft, but I doubt that HTC would be thinking of perking it.
If an aircraft is so common that it would be worth an unbalancing number of points when you kill it, then that aircraft could gravely disrupt, even break, the perk system.
I am only stating my opinions of what Pyro has posted. This is the way I read it.
Other aircraft, such as the Me262, Spitfire MkXIV and P-51H will be perks because of their performance. So no, popularity is not the only way something is perked. If HTC judges that an aircrafts performance is above a certain point, it will be perked.
Once again, that is how I read it.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 01-08-2001).]
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Gents,
Have I completely missed something? The F4U-1C is going to be perked?? Say's who, when?
Also it seems that perk values have been assigned for different birds. What are these values and where are they posted??
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/007299.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/007299.html)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/007315.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/007315.html)
[This message has been edited by SOB (edited 01-08-2001).]
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Hi yas,
We'd need an automation for perking.
There could be a formula calculated by host which:
1. calculates the relative values of planes based by popularity (like a share market)
2. perks planes automatically - some share of most popular planes maybe 10% or 20% - the perk cost will be automatically calculated by host.
What I like to see is a dynamic change of values of planes - shouldn't be too hard to implement and selfsteering system would be very balancing.
Well, some plane oriented squads would be unhappy maybe, but there's usually a couple of versions of the plane to choose.
Just my thoughts....
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Thanks for the links to those threads. Very interesting reading there.
Fury
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The CHog will *not* be perked because it is the most popular plane in arena (allthough it is that too - CV's ect), but because is has by far the most kills: 20%.
For other planes it will demand a far greater popularity to get 20% of total kills.Weak killers like the 109's or the Yak need never fear for being perked on this basis.
danish
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I know Ice has been lobbying to get the FW-190-D9 introduced as a non-perk.
I support that.
However, I also think the D9 is going to be a true killer in the arena.
So, when it climbs to the top of the "kill % ladder" will there be all this clamor to perk it as well?
Is every plane that is a disproportionately good killer going to get perked?
If so, where will the "disproportionate" level be set?
Clearly, 20% is enough to get the hog into minor perk status. Will 18% do it for the D9? How about 15%? Maybe 12%?
I really am looking forward to the threads that are coming. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Fly what you like. Like what you fly. Always, always figure someone is about to hose you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Check Six!
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Couldn't have said it any better Toad, <S>.
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Ok, now that I have my asbestos underwear on, I'll wade into this one.
It does seem the current system is based solely on popularity and not on any kind of performance of the kite in question. When HTC first started talking about the perk system I got the impression it would be based solely on aircraft performance, with the lower performers/early war kites getting more points for killing the late war monsters, and the late war stuff getting hardly nothing for killing early war stuff.
The EMY value is the perk multiplier for a kite, correct? Take a gander at the Seafire Mk IIc. It's 17. Take a gander at the SpitV. It's 35. I'm no expert here, but isn't the Seafire Mk IIc basically a SpitV with a strengthened fuse/carrier gear added? Hence a slightly worse performance envelope than the SpitV? But you see alot of them, so the Seafire has a multiplier of 17. Frankly I dinnae care how many -1Cs I see flying around if the perk points are based on kite performace (yes, gun package should be a variable in determining performance). Then there's no spread based on popularity, and no skewing of the system because alot of people all of a sudden decide to fly a kite and start kicking butt in it.
IMO perking the F4U-1C because alot of people fly it is bad. The reason it has come to such prominence in 1.05 is solely because of the flat tops, and there are only 5 kites you can fly off the flat tops right now. The -1C is also probably the best attack kite in the game, which is another reason why it gets used on alot of missions.
Now what's really funny here is why everyone cries about the -1C. The N1K2-J is much more of a monster:
900rounds for it's 4x20mm gun package
No to verra little E loss (see a film of 27 loops on takeoff posted on these boards, gaining alt w/ each loop if I remember correctly)
JATO unit assisted acceration coming out of hard turns. I've personally blown straight by N1K's in a full power wep on dive at 500mph and they turn hard to follow me and gain ground on me when I continued w/ only a minor, gentle 10degree turn to keep him out of the blindspot.
Reasons the N1K isn't so prominent is because:
Everyone whines about the -1C, so new people believe it's the uber UFO kite
It's not launchable from the flat tops.
Before 1.05 it had 300rounds less ammunition
And has everyone forgotten that the tiffie has the exact same gun package? Guess it's a non-issue because it has half the ammo load of the -1C. And each spit carries 2 of the 'turbo laser' cannon, but again, a non-issue because it has one quarter the ammo load of the -1C, correct? And the P-38, with it's single turbo laser, but it has a little better than one eighth the ammo load of the -1C for it's cannon.
The -1C isn't some kind of uber kite in its performance envelope. Others turn better, a couple zoom better, most accelerate better, and even a couple dive better. They're fairly easy to stay out of thier gun evelope with decent SA. If something sneaks up on you while you've got target fixation it won't matter if they're flying a C.202, you're meat on the table.
Next complain is the HO complaint. From my experiences in the arena some pilots have egos that can't take being out scissored. They'll get into a scissors, get pushed out in front, and the -1C driver will take a front quarter snapshot at 75yds and waste'em. That -1C driver is immediately labeled a "chog HO dweeb". I've called spit drivers "HO dweebs" after dying the above described situation, and mainly just to soothe my ego, when in all reality it was a good fight. In that situation it almost dinnae matter what guns your advesary has as you're toast at that range. Probably only the 7.9mm and .303s wouldna kill you in that situation, but the 12.7mm/.50s and any of the cannon damn sure will.
Now, would you really want Torque to go back to flying that UFO N1K2-J? Or any of the other dedicated -1C drivers? Maybe we should go ahead and perk the George because its popularity will climb if the -1C is perked. Out performs the -1C in EVERY area except top speed and ballistics, and its cannon aren't that far behind the hispanos. The tiffie will start seeing more use as well, since it has the gun package that everyone loves to cry in thier beer about.
Flame away
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If someone is goinf to perk your favourite plane then you need these:
(http://www.monk.ca/image/38114-c.jpg)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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CavemanJ,
I see what you are saying.
I think Pyro's reasoning follows something like this:
If the F4U-1C is getting 20% of the kills then its EMY value is going to go as low as it can and then it will force the EMY value of all other aircraft higher.
If this happens, then it will become relatively pointless to kill anything but F4U-1Cs if the player wishes to accumulate perk points.
If F4U-1Cs are the only thing worth killing, then it will distort the combat environment and players who are successful in A6M5bs, Bf109F-4s, Spitfire MkVbs, C.202s and P-38Ls will be able to fly perks at will because of how many points the F4U-1C is worth when killed in one of those.
If HTC responds by raising the price of the perks, then it makes killing non-F4U-1Cs that much more pointless and the cycle repeats.
I could be way off base here. But I'm guessing that this, or something like it, is what is causing the F4U-1C to be considered as the first perk.
Hey, its kinda an honor to have your bird be the first perk.
I know my prefered kite, the Spitfire F.MkXIV, will enter the game as a perk.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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Ok, stop flying with the F4U-1C. Start playing with the C.202, the 109F-4 and the Spitfire MkV. So PYRO will perk them and you'll be able to mount again your dweeb-cannons-kite (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hmmm, I see NIKIS and Typhoons in danger (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Yes, Gatt is correct. If players would use a more diverse selection of aircraft then the F4U-1C would not have found itself in this position.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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Caveman's post reflect my opinion as well, I'm no Chog lover, I much prefer the 1D, since my gunnery with all cannons is terrible. However its the 'fall out' effect downstream that matters, I've already seen posts calling for my number one nemesis, the N1K, to be perked...again, where does it stop?
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I think it stops when every plane in the game except the Macci 202 costs some perk points.
J_A_B
(In other words, the whining will never stop)
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I wonder if such a system could be utilized that every plane (no matter how powerful it may seem) enters the game as an everyday non-perk plane. After that it's perk status is dynamically controlled so, that if it accounts for too big a deal of kills in the arena, it will get perked. Also the perk value could be dynamic too and perhaps if plane falls into disuse, it might get unperked again (and the cycle begins anew, ad infinitum).
What would you people think of this? I dare to suggest that with finely tuned parameters this sort of thing might even work wery well.
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SageFIN
"I think I´ll believe in Gosh instead of God. If you don´t
believe in Gosh too, you´ll be darned to heck."
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Karnak the constant shifting of values comes from a system based, in part, on the popularity of the aircraft and not solely on aircraft performance vs aircraft performance. IMNSHO being based on anything other than aircraft performance vs aircraft performance is bad. Take a look at the Seafire and SpitV examples above. Of course the most used kite is gonna have the most kills. What if the most popular kite were the Seafire? Folks flying the -1C or any other kite would rack up points every time they killed one, though the Seafire is outperformed by alot of the kites in the MA.
Staga: our -1C crybaby for the thread. You need those yourself dinnae ya mate?
Ok, let's remove the -1C from the chart. And, just for the sake of arguement, let's evenly split that 20% of kills between the 2 closest carrier kites, the F6F and the -1D. That'll bring the Hellcat to 17-18% and the -1D to ~16% of the total kills in the arena. Whoops, getting close to that magical 20% mark.
Of course I dinnae think the kills division would be that clean nor easily defined.
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??? Don't take that the F4u-1C's 20% and disperse it over just the F6F and F4U-1D because first and foremost the 1C is not being removed from the game and any drop in the1C's 20% should be distibuted over the remaining aircraft on the chart as a percentage of thier existing share.
-Westy
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flying alot in the 1C will not get you any closer to the 262, tempest, whatever perk ride is coing soon.
So, have your fun in the 1C, i know i do, but when the time comes the guys that flew the 202s, p47s, 109s, etc etc will been seen buzzing your hog in thier purty new 262.
understanding the dynamics of the perk system is/was a bit confusing. Remeber, folks, when you die in a f4C then you just gave someone mucho perks to apply to their bank. That guy might have enough points to fly his/her 262 next run, causing you, and your fellow teamsmates to perish.
LaVa
LaVa
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Westy you need to re-read what I wrote and reflect for a moment before reaching for that reply button
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Ripsnort,
the N1k is not in the same class as the C hog because it
a) has japanese cannon rather than hispano
b) cannot take off from carriers
c) is relatively slow
while i used to often whine about n1k when i played. that was because i was always a dash in and kill type. If i flew realistically, the n1k is easy to kill since i just never engage it. Also, the n1k is poor at jabo and has poor high speed manouverabiility. While it is a great dogfighter, it isnt so multi-faceted as the c hog.
also, i think ex c hoggers will be distribiuted like
(c hog dweebs) --> n1k
(true fans) --> f4u-1d
(others) --> other good airplanes (like p-51)
some o
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Anyone saying that the chog and dhog are average planes hasn't flown the equivalent of these aircraft belonging to the LW.
The F4UC/D compare favourably to the 190's, with the advantage being slighter against the 190A5.
The simple solution is simply not allowing chogs to take off for carriers - afficionados in need oftheir f4u fix can then take the dhog.
But there's the philosophical aspect of limiting a plane where it shouldn't be limited. Then again, this is game play. We remove some reality for this, like with 30k accuracy bombers and so forth. So why not something small that might have a good large effect, like simply disallowing it to take off from a carrier?
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.geocities.com/nirfurian/stSanta.jpg)
"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 01-10-2001).]
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LWwaffles fly your flag!
Leave it be..then blow it up !
LaVa
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I did Caveman. I wasreplying to this part of your post above,
"Ok, let's remove the -1C from the chart. And, just for the sake of arguement, let's evenly split that 20% of kills between the 2 closest carrier kites, the F6F and the -1D. That'll bring the Hellcat to 17-18% and the -1D to ~16% of the total kills in the arena. Whoops, getting close to that magical 20% mark. Of course I dinnae think the kills division would be that clean nor easily defined."
But I chose to focus more on this " Whoops, getting close to that magical 20% mark." because that is what I felt that part of your post was really getting at. I will let let my prior reply stand just as I wrote it.
-Westy
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Originally posted by Zigrat:
a) has japanese cannon rather than hispano
b) cannot take off from carriers
c) is relatively slow
I've done speed tests on the N1K at 5000 feet altitude, did you know it can catch a FW190A8 (2x20's) ,both at 50% fuel? Yep, 350 mph at level speed with wep on. It has an excellent diving ability, and its acceleration is the best in the game next to the spit. So, due to tests I've conducted, I disagree with C
In regards to [A], yes, they're not Hispano's, but they're certainly better than .50's.
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I was being facetious for the sake of arguement, and it appears you missed this
"Of course I dinnae think the kills division would be that clean nor easily defined"
It is possible, though not plausible, for the -1C to be reduced to only 2% of the total arena kills by being perked, and for that remaining 18% to split evenly between the F6F and -1D.
Some current -1C drivers will go for the tiffie to stay with the gun package. Die hard Hawg fans will go for the -1D, and the HO dweebs will go for the N1K in all probability. When doing flight ops from the flattops it'll be a tossup between the Seafire (since it has hispanos), the F6F and the -1D as to which gets more use with the -1C out of the picture.
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Originally posted by CavemanJ:
Some current -1C drivers will go for the tiffie to stay with the gun package.
Purely my opinion, but if they do, then I think they'll be in for a bit of a shock =)
I could be wrong, it'll be interesting to see =)
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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>