Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Twist on February 06, 2009, 04:10:14 PM
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OK, enough is enough, I mean come on already, hasn't this gone on long enough? The B24 was fixed sometime ago so any hanky-panky in it and pop goes your wings. Why not do the same with the Lanc's? I watched someone do an Immelman in a Lanc while under 2k alt this morning. That's absolute BS folks.
I know I'm not the first to bring this up judging by comments in the MA this AM. So what I'm asking is why hasn't this been addressed yet?
I once filmed a group of B26's on the deck pulling up near a CV and slinging the bombs at it, also BS, sent film, no reply.
Saw a Lanc do the same thing not long afterward, didn't send film, why bother?
Do I need to start a petition? Call Texas? Drive down there and march out front with a sign? What?
Seems to me a fix for this is a matter of a few simple tweaks. Charge me a tweak fee if you must, just fix this please.
Razer
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It's gamey, true. There was no point in sending a film to them, I don't think they'll do anything about it.
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I once filmed a group of B26's on the deck pulling up near a CV and slinging the bombs at it, also BS, sent film, no reply.
Saw a Lanc do the same thing not long afterward, didn't send film, why bother?
LOL...i used to do that before the new CVs. Now, as I have a new outlook on AH ;), I don't even bother sinking them. Matter of fact I say keep em up :aok
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LOL...i used to do that before the new CVs. Now, as I have a new outlook on AH ;), I don't even bother sinking them. Matter of fact I say keep em up :aok
I used to also. Frankly, I'd rather up a 234 and climb to 15K and try to sink the bugger (knowing I WILL NOT hit it) just for the fun of it.
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I used to also. Frankly, I'd rather up a 234 and climb to 15K and try to sink the bugger (knowing I WILL NOT hit it) just for the fun of it.
Never was able to sink a CV with high alt bombers. Never really bothered doing that anyway. Like I stated in my other post, I couldn't care any less if an enemy CV was sunk. It just gives me more Hurri 1 time :aok
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OK, enough is enough, I mean come on already, hasn't this gone on long enough? The B24 was fixed sometime ago so any hanky-panky in it and pop goes your wings. Why not do the same with the Lanc's? I watched someone do an Immelman in a Lanc while under 2k alt this morning. That's absolute BS folks.
I know I'm not the first to bring this up judging by comments in the MA this AM. So what I'm asking is why hasn't this been addressed yet?
I once filmed a group of B26's on the deck pulling up near a CV and slinging the bombs at it, also BS, sent film, no reply.
Saw a Lanc do the same thing not long afterward, didn't send film, why bother?
Do I need to start a petition? Call Texas? Drive down there and march out front with a sign? What?
Seems to me a fix for this is a matter of a few simple tweaks. Charge me a tweak fee if you must, just fix this please.
Razer
slinging the bombs, i think did occur in reality.
in all honesty, i wonder what it'd be like if they gave us the skip bombs that lancs used sometimes.
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Never was able to sink a CV with high alt bombers. Never really bothered doing that anyway. Like I stated in my other post, I couldn't care any less if an enemy CV was sunk. It just gives me more Hurri 1 time :aok
And more 109F time for I. :) I can't hit squat with buffs in calibration with CVs...and I don't intend on actually practicing any time soon. I know how to do it, but I don't care to do it...
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I once filmed a group of B26's on the deck pulling up near a CV and slinging the bombs at it, also BS, sent film, no reply.
Toss/Loft bombing is an actual tactic that is used pretty much by all air forces. Here is an example of one form of loft bombing, the "Over the Shoulder", it's what I used to use in the P-38J when hunting Osties and WWs.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e2/Overtheshoulderbomb.jpg)
The only possible 'gamey' part would have been using a B-26 but I'm pretty sure the Marauder was capable of performing the most basic loft bombing technique, such as the Pop-Up, Level Toss or even a Dive Toss.
In its most basic from, loft bombing is the act of pulling upwards as you pickle your bombs which gives the bomb additional flight time by starting its ballistic path in an upward vector. It's a great tactic to use when you're coming off the deck, ensures that you can pickle at low altitude and have your bomb travel the necessary distance to arm itself.
ack-ack
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I'm not sure the over-the-shoulder tactic was used in WW2. Lead computing gunsights and
ballistic computers were in their infancy in the 50s. It was used by the Phantoms I worked on,
mostly for tactical huke practice deliveries.
Also the only "skip" bombing I've ever heard of Lancasters doing was the 617 squadron dam raids,
and technically that would be "spin" bombing :D I do think 4 engined US bombers did skip bomb in
the pacific however.
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The Brits had round "ball" bombs that they used to skip bomb ships. I don't know if they were used or even if the lanc carried them.
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OK, enough is enough, I mean come on already, hasn't this gone on long enough? The B24 was fixed sometime ago so any hanky-panky in it and pop goes your wings. Why not do the same with the Lanc's? I watched someone do an Immelman in a Lanc while under 2k alt this morning. That's absolute BS folks.
I know I'm not the first to bring this up judging by comments in the MA this AM. So what I'm asking is why hasn't this been addressed yet?
I once filmed a group of B26's on the deck pulling up near a CV and slinging the bombs at it, also BS, sent film, no reply.
Saw a Lanc do the same thing not long afterward, didn't send film, why bother?
Do I need to start a petition? Call Texas? Drive down there and march out front with a sign? What?
Seems to me a fix for this is a matter of a few simple tweaks. Charge me a tweak fee if you must, just fix this please.
Razer
Why do you care? Buffs doing this are going to be low and easy kills.
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Do I need to start a petition? Call Texas? Drive down there and march out front with a sign? What?
Yes. And take pictures. :)
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Toss/Loft bombing is an actual tactic that is used pretty much by all air forces. Here is an example of one form of loft bombing, the "Over the Shoulder", it's what I used to use in the P-38J when hunting Osties and WWs.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e2/Overtheshoulderbomb.jpg)
The only possible 'gamey' part would have been using a B-26 but I'm pretty sure the Marauder was capable of performing the most basic loft bombing technique, such as the Pop-Up, Level Toss or even a Dive Toss.
In its most basic from, loft bombing is the act of pulling upwards as you pickle your bombs which gives the bomb additional flight time by starting its ballistic path in an upward vector. It's a great tactic to use when you're coming off the deck, ensures that you can pickle at low altitude and have your bomb travel the necessary distance to arm itself.
ack-ack
That looks like a very tough way to get any sort of accuracy.
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Heck if you hit someone like that, you should get a LOT more points!
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I'm not sure the over-the-shoulder tactic was used in WW2. Lead computing gunsights and
ballistic computers were in their infancy in the 50s. It was used by the Phantoms I worked on,
mostly for tactical huke practice deliveries.
Considering loft bombing was really development post WW2 as a somewhat safe way of delivering tactical nuclear ordnance, doubt the over-the-shoulder method was even used during the war. However, through trial and error (when it comes to learning how to "aim") it's a method that works quite well in AH.
I've even used the "Pop-Up" and "Level Toss" methods in the B-25H with some success, though with 3 1,000lb bombs, you really don't have to be all that accurate just need to get close.
ack-ack
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That looks like a very tough way to get any sort of accuracy.
As Phanboi pointed out when he was working on Phantoms many centuries ago (yes, he's really that old), it wasn't really developed until after the war when lead computing gunsights were starting to really make their way into aircraft and was a tactic primarily developed to deliver tactical nuclear weapons. So accuracy wasn't the main aim of the tactic, it was to allow the attacking plane to release their ordnance at a somewhat safe range from either AAA defenses or the bomb blast.
In AH, the principle is somewhat the same. You don't have to be accurate and score a direct hit, you just have to hit close.
ack-ack
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I used to toss bomb GVs in the stuka with the MOAB. Id get some alt then dive to the deck for speed. Once I felt close enough I pulled up a little and dropped the bomb. Once you got the hang of timing then you can get more accurate.
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Dive bombing Flaks is one of my favorite matchups in the game..
Yesterday, was lookin for badguys at Vbase w my trusty old
A20.. Went 4kills, to 4deaths against a good wirby shooter..
Was fun.. I Don't use lanks, because its dorky, and I don't need
a 4k cookie or 20 x 500lb'ers to hit the guy, lol!!!
2 do just fine for me...
On the reverse of that, I'm a pretty fair wirby shot myself..
Good enough to often be the last surviving GV at a Vbase, after
the hngrs go down.. Rack up lots of kills, hackin off the redguys
in a MAJOR way... Then the Stankstukas show up.. I stay on my
bicycle, always moving.. Turn directly into them when they line up..
When they reach 1k, I hook a medium turn Left or Right, but not
so tight of a turn as to loose speed.. When ya see him bank the
"Stankies" to keep ya lined up, you know that he'll miss.. If he
banks hard, the bombs will yaw to the opposite side.. Then ya tear
his guts out when he passes.. LOL!!!
The really irritating thing is, his last drop will be that 4k cookie..
ITs SO BIG, that you can't escape the blast area.. Even the lamest
player can kill a gv with that.. Last lank, 4k cookie, lousy drop,
you die anyway.. Its a crutch, for a lame player who couldn't hit
ya strait up.. Thats why I dislike it so much!!!
The loaded lanks doing immelmans is SO HOKEY.. One of the stupidest
and most laughable things in this game.. See it ALL THE TIME!!!
Lanks were KNOWN for shedding wings while dodging searchlights..
They should in the game as well..
The toss bombing tactic in acks pic, was the standard
delivery method for tactical nuclear weapons, developed
by Tactical Air Command in the late 50s.. The Standard
Medium bombers had become outdated by SAM systems..
The F105 Thunderchief was designed specifically, (w internal
bombay for da nuke) and employed by TAC in europe
during the early 60s.. Thats why the Thud was built to be so
MASSIVELY FAST on the deck.. (Cool pic Ack, haven't seen that
one in many years. Looks like it came from USAF training manual.)
Dash in lightnin fast under soviet air defense net, pop up,
launch weapon at Warsaw Pact tank yards, rail yards, airfields..
The arching trajectory would give the pilot time to wing over,
get his donut to the blast, and put a survivable distance between
the the plane and the detonation.. Suicide otherwise!!!
WOW man, If you can hit a GV with an Iron bomb doing that,
I :salute you!!!
RC
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I got a really good shot in one time attacking ordinance at a small field. I dropped low to kill a A20 that was doing our GVs a disservice. So I had like 2k to play with but instead I dropped to the deck picked my nose up at 45 degrees in full wep and lofted salvo one twice and so my first bomb hit the ammo bunker near the dar and my second egg hit six GVs that just spawned. No aiming at all other then instinct I just wanted the things off my racks. This is one of the missions that had me crying to HTC for autofilm. :aok
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I used to despise this sort of lanc-stuka dweebery, but I thought it would have died down a bit over time. I suppose by the posts here that it still happens.
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Ack-Ack thanks for the Bombing tips :noid :noid Do you have any GV tips :noid :noid
Crims :lol
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Considering loft bombing was really development post WW2 as a somewhat safe way of delivering tactical nuclear ordnance, doubt the over-the-shoulder method was even used during the war. However, through trial and error (when it comes to learning how to "aim") it's a method that works quite well in AH.
I've even used the "Pop-Up" and "Level Toss" methods in the B-25H with some success, though with 3 1,000lb bombs, you really don't have to be all that accurate just need to get close.
ack-ack
The only person I see successful at this tactic is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Instead of the sky-hook; the sky-bomb. :aok
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These are the bomb release tables from the B-25C/D service manual. You can see the glide/dive angle for each type of bomb and each bomb station. The first station is closest to the bomb bay door and 12th station is at the top of the bomb bay. The allowable dive angle is dependent on the specific type of bomb and it's location within the bomb bay.
(http://332nd.org/dogs/baumer/Stuff/B-25cbombangle1.jpg)
(http://332nd.org/dogs/baumer/Stuff/B-25cbombangle2.jpg)
:salute Baumer
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Sorry double post
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I AM THE KING OF THE LANC-O-MATIC....
KAM
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Toss/Loft bombing is an actual tactic that is used pretty much by all air forces. Here is an example of one form of loft bombing, the "Over the Shoulder", it's what I used to use in the P-38J when hunting Osties and WWs.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e2/Overtheshoulderbomb.jpg)
The only possible 'gamey' part would have been using a B-26 but I'm pretty sure the Marauder was capable of performing the most basic loft bombing technique, such as the Pop-Up, Level Toss or even a Dive Toss.
In its most basic from, loft bombing is the act of pulling upwards as you pickle your bombs which gives the bomb additional flight time by starting its ballistic path in an upward vector. It's a great tactic to use when you're coming off the deck, ensures that you can pickle at low altitude and have your bomb travel the necessary distance to arm itself.
ack-ack
I find "loft" bombing amusing at best. Funny how this is the first I've ever heard of such legit and *taught* bombing tactics. The "over-the-shoulder" looks to be like pissin' into the wind. I have yet to see any film of one doing it and I cant imagine it to be the least bit accurate. Tell us why that tactic should be applied vs the typical dive bomb? Seems to me it would expose the aircraft to AA fire longer, be far less accurate of a drop, and put undue stress on teh pilot and aircraft.
Dive bombing Lancs is a travesty in this sim. One would have to believe that is the Lancs did such a thing with 14k of ord the wings would snap off very similar as the B24's do in AH2. First, I cant imagine Lancs getting THAT low and doing dive bombs, they were far too expensive to hover that close to ground in that manner and secondly I cant imagine the airframe being able to sustain that kind of stress. Low level bombing is one thing, but Lanc-Stuka dive bombing is another. A pathetic and horrid "gamey" tactic it is, nothing more. It is truely sad that HTC wont fix it because even though I am no engineer in the least bit, I'd be willing to bet for many many reasons the Lancs didnt perform the Lanc-stuka menouver succesfully as it does in AH2.
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lets be real the carpet bombing stuka lanc are flow by tards that cant get the job done with anyother bombing platform in the game. Its a compliment and always has been to me when i get bombed by a gv tard that cant it it done in a gv...
<S> but dont worry i got my wish posted in the wishlist forum.....we will have formations of whirbles real soon :noid
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Well SmokinLoon, my father was in the Air Force from 1959-1962 and responsible for repairing the gun and bomb sight system on the F-100. He clearly remembers the sight system having 3 different modes just for loft or lob bombing. He has seen it demonstrated while stationed at Kadena AB on Okinawa. The primary purpose for these attacks was to deliver nuclear weapons from an NOE approach. The over the shoulder approach allowed for passing directly over the target at 500 feet and just subsonic. The vertical maneuver was designed to give the pilot time to escape. And just to tell you how accurate they were, a popular trick at Kadena in 1961 was to load the dive break with toilet paper and then fly over the observer jeep at the ordinance range and perform an "over the shoulder" and on average, 1 or 2 of the rolls (out of 10-15) would land in the jeep! He's going to look through his photo's, and I'll be glad to post them if/when he finds them.
Baumer
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CCRP bomb loft in F16:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx4sl3i8Iu4
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Dive bombing Lancs is a travesty in this sim. One would have to believe that is the Lancs did such a thing with 14k of ord the wings would snap off very similar as the B24's do in AH2. First, I cant imagine Lancs getting THAT low and doing dive bombs, they were far too expensive to hover that close to ground in that manner and secondly I cant imagine the airframe being able to sustain that kind of stress. Low level bombing is one thing, but Lanc-Stuka dive bombing is another. A pathetic and horrid "gamey" tactic it is, nothing more. It is truely sad that HTC wont fix it because even though I am no engineer in the least bit, I'd be willing to bet for many many reasons the Lancs didnt perform the Lanc-stuka menouver succesfully as it does in AH2.
What kind of bombers did the dam busters use again? (http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq197/Chalenge08/costumed-smiley-011.gif)
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Lancs, far as i know, which is .....*ch 555 on star choice* , I get all my pertenant information from military or history channel. They always tell it like it wasnt,.....errr was.... <S> I only recall lancs toss'n what looked like a barrel filled w/ tnt. skip bombing dams to flood the area.
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Heck if you hit someone like that, you should get a LOT more points!
:rofl :rofl :rofl
I don't really care how they fly lancstukas.
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The Dambusters Lancs didn't toss. They dropped spin-stabilized bombs, that looked like barrels, from low level. The spin allowed the bombs to skip along the surface of the lake and over the torpedo nets protecting the dams.
No diving, no lofting. 60 foot altitude straight in.
wrongway
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SNIP
I know I'm not the first to bring this up judging by comments in the MA this AM. So what I'm asking is why hasn't this been addressed yet?
Razer
Went on a mini crusade about dive bombing heavy bombers about 5 years ago.....that's right 5 years ago. Was hoping F6 to be made DEFAULT drop position as a bear minimum to stop these gamey idiots. Although it wouldn't stop them out right it would make it harder for the skilles STUPID gamer type to be accurate.
From what I gather through reading through the lines of some posts, HTC is happy with the flight model but he can't code out ...."STUPID". In other words he's done his bit but if an individual player wants to "ride it in" then that's the players choice. However, I feel there's more to it than that. Perhaps it allows newbies to feel they are contributing to their side by suiciding cv's and stuff.....rinse repeat untill addiction complete. Perhaps the coding is too ingrained in the flight model to be bothering with coding bomb bay bomb hang ups. What ever the reason/s it's one of the longest lasting bug bears. Considering other gamey aspects have been coded out i.e runway spawn point bombing, I'm stumped as to why this hasn't been addressed.......good luck with it.
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We should make a list of gameplay features that we know are more or less incorrect. This one can be at the top of the list. ;)
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no dive bombing in these pics! just a good hit from about 10,000 feet
hard turn right after pickle to make myself a smaller target, for ack
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/lanc4.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/lanc5.jpg)
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The Avro Lancaster started life as the Avro Manchester, a design to a 1936 Air Ministry specification for a twin engined medium bomber. Oddly the specification also included a requirement that the aircraft be able to carry out dive-bombing at angles of up to 30-degrees and the ability to launch torpedoes.
I guess Hitech simply perfected what Avro didn't. :lol
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The Dambusters Lancs didn't toss. They dropped spin-stabilized bombs, that looked like barrels, from low level. The spin allowed the bombs to skip along the surface of the lake and over the torpedo nets protecting the dams.
No diving, no lofting. 60 foot altitude straight in.
So you think they went on at low level after dropping?
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I just want to admit something so I feel better. My ingame ID is Choker41 and I have been known to do one sortie in a month of dive bombing last hanger on a VBase. I do level bomb first pass then I do an Immelman and dive bomb last hanger. Pheeeeeeeeewwwwwwyyyyyy got that of my chest. Now lets go play
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So you think they went on at low level after dropping?
I have it on good authority that NO 4 engined bombers ever did a mission under 3-4k.
:noid
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Just remove F3 view mode and this crap will settle down a bit ! Doing this will also make the A20s and IL2s a bit more realistic :aok
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Doing this will also make the A20s and IL2s a bit more realistic :aok
Could you explain what you mean by this?
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I have it on good authority that NO 4 engined bombers ever did a mission under 10k.
:noid
B-17's WERE used in the pacific for skip bombing attacks on the IJN fleet. There are even books written on it by people that were there. They would approach at about 200 feet (at night or in bad weather) and skip bomb modified 1000 pounders into the ship. Here is a publishers note from the book "Skip Bombing" by James T. Murphy:
"Murphy was one of a very small number of volunteer pilots who, with their flight crews, started bombing at low altitudes in B-17 flying fortresses in the Southwest Pacific. The aircraft were flown at a 200-foot altitude and at 250 miles per hour at night. One-thousand pound bombs, equipped with four-to-five second fuses, were dropped from the B-17s. On March 3, 1943, the Japanese made a desperate move to re-supply their forces on New Guinea. Twenty-two cargo, transport, and war ships proceeded toward New Guinea using bad weather for cover. They were found in the Bismarck Sea. The Allied Air Forces--using skip bombing--sank all twenty-two Japanese ships. Murphy was credited with sinking nine Japanese ships during his year of combat, including one in the Bismarck Sea battle. Skip bombing became a tactic that helped the U.S. win the war in the South Pacific."
It wasnt done in high numbers, but it was done.
<S>
Edgar
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Could you explain what you mean by this?
It's easy, try and keep up :aok If F3 mode was disabled, the ability for the "dogfighting" A20s and IL2s would be greatly curtailed, simply because the views would be realistic! :cool:
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no dive bombing in these pics! just a good hit from about 10,000 feet
hard turn right after pickle to make myself a smaller target, for ack
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/lanc4.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/lanc5.jpg)
10K--> ? < that's a dive bombing run if I've ever seen one ! :rofl :rofl :rofl The tracers give away the LIE :aok
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It's easy, try and keep up :aok If F3 mode was disabled, the ability for the "dogfighting" A20s and IL2s would be greatly curtailed, simply because the views would be realistic! :cool:
I wouldn't know as I don't use the f3 in an IL-2. Also I think I can count on one hand times I've flown the A-20.
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It's easy, try and keep up :aok If F3 mode was disabled, the ability for the "dogfighting" A20s and IL2s would be greatly curtailed, simply because the views would be realistic! :cool:
I doubt Humble or Widewing rely on F3 to make the A20 dance.
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shreck
10K--> ? < that's a dive bombing run if I've ever seen one ! The tracers give away the LIE
there are no tracers in the pictures !!!
if you look close at the first pic you see there is no ack at all!!!
all you do see is the explosions from the bombs hitting
first pic shows 3 splashes from first pickle of bombs, no flashes, no tracers only smoke from #3 engine from flack burst on approach
the fire you see is the candle that was already lit when i got there!!
back away from the coolaid the mister :rofl :rofl
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there are no tracers in the pictures !!!
Hmm (http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/lanc5.jpg)
Tracer?
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I doubt Humble or Widewing rely on F3 to make the A20 dance.
Last evening (Friday), I was flying an A-20 with 50% fuel southwest of A27 on the NDisles map....And yes, when flying a bomber I do use F3 view (can't see behind).
http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Gofbat.ahf (http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Gofbat.ahf)
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Tracer (http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq197/Chalenge08/lanc5.jpg)
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(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/lanc4.jpg)
no tracers here about one frame diff in film from that to this
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/lanc5.jpg)
the angle off the light you are pointing does not come from the cv as well and it looks to be a fire flare but it could be plane firing at me , but i think i still have the film if you really want to argue the point, also the guns in the pic are not even pointed at me, at high alt this is the way they would be at low alt they would be aimed, kinda like when you see a tank at a long distance, it looks to be pointed away ye the rounds come at you
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2nd picture just before the top turret. What is that?
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no dive bombing in these pics! just a good hit from about 10,000 feet
hard turn right after pickle to make myself a smaller target, for ack
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/lanc4.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/lanc5.jpg)
Why hard right turn to for smaller target, for ack ? and your view looks about 3K after pull out "zoomed in" :aok just saying :)
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2nd picture just before the top turret. What is that?
not all that sure but it is not there 1/30th of a second before and there is no other ack firing, you can not get that close to a cv at anything less than 7000 feet without ack everywere, if it is ack then it could be a manned ack, but his aim was way off!
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But could they not do as well without it? I've screwed around with the A20 and don't need six-oc view except to quickly look behind without having auto-level interrupt like it does if I jump in the gunner position.
BTW whatever happened to the bottom gunner position? Didn't someone send the pictures of the real ones that were all Superfly needed to model it?
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Now that's what I'm talkin about :aok nice find Anax
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Why hard right turn to for smaller target, for ack ? and your view looks about 3K after pull out "zoomed in" :aok just saying :)
real good camera trick, in film viewer i set it up with zoom on the cv then backed the camera out of the plane, you can get pics the make ranges appear really close, for the effect
the hard turn was to make the plane as small as i could so that a gunner, thru the smoke, might not see or be able to hit it
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now this is the 13th time this week for this topic. Maybe more
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(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/f4u2-1.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/f4u3-2.jpg)
two pics from diff angles to show the distance effect
first one looks about 100 or so the second looks atleast 600,
same shot tho
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real good camera trick, in film viewer i set it up with zoom on the cv then backed the camera out of the plane, you can get pics the make ranges appear really close, for the effect
the hard turn was to make the plane as small as i could so that a gunner, thru the smoke, might not see or be able to hit it
Why on earth would a gunner try and shoot at you at 10K ? The 5" at 10K, maybe, but certainly not at that angle! anyway, wtg