Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Blake7 on February 07, 2009, 07:38:44 PM
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Is there any way to get a P.38 out of a Compressed dive. on AH
Saw thisis vid on you tube about a real life compression situ.
Check out this link. And check out the odds 50-2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITRLk9b9AcY
A Highlly Respectfull :salute to Brig Gen Robin Olds U.S.A.F.(retd)
the only fighter pilot in WW2 to shoot down an enemy A/c while his aircraft is in a glide.
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In any aircraft in AH, if you are in a compressed dive, tap your "K" key (or whatever you have set as 'elevator trim up') and it will pull you out of a dive. Go to the Training arena, be sure to be a Bishop, Go to A3 and choose an aircraft...spawn SE, which spawns you 30k above A1, and practice it :)
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Is there any way to get a P.38 out of a Compressed dive. on AH
Saw thisis vid on you tube about a real life compression situ.
Check out this link. And check out the odds 50-2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITRLk9b9AcY
A Highlly Respectfull :salute to Brig Gen Robin Olds U.S.A.F.(retd)
the only fighter pilot in WW2 to shoot down an enemy A/c while his aircraft is in a glide.
Too add to Banshee's info: You'll want to disable combat trim(I have it mapped to my X-45 and not sure what the keyboard command is) and then trim elevator UP.. Also, on the 38L, you can use the dive recovery flaps (shift+C).. This won't slow you down, but will help in getting your nose pitched back up.. I usually use a combination of both..
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When you trim your elevators (or any control surface) it automatically turns your combat trim off...i thought
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When you trim your elevators (or any control surface) it automatically turns your combat trim off...i thought
Well, I know I use rudder trim on the keyboard to adjust while flying formations or when precision flying is required.. It doesn't turn off combat trim..
But I don't think you can use elevator trim without disable combat trim.... Let me get in the offline area real quick and see....
(2 minutes later)
Ok, so I tried it out and it's as I say... You can still use rudder trim while combat trim (as well as autopilot) is on.. However, you must disengage combat trim
if you want to use elevator trim.. Also, ctrl+X disables/enables combat trim since I couldn't remember what it was before.... :salute
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1. Throttle back.
2. Trim up.
3. Cross control until you bleed enough speed.
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If you find yourself compressing a lot in the P38, you are doing something wrong.
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Well, I know I use rudder trim on the keyboard to adjust while flying formations or when precision flying is required.. It doesn't turn off combat trim..
But I don't think you can use elevator trim without disable combat trim.... Let me get in the offline area real quick and see....
(2 minutes later)
Ok, so I tried it out and it's as I say... You can still use rudder trim while combat trim (as well as autopilot) is on.. However, you must disengage combat trim
if you want to use elevator trim.. Also, ctrl+X disables/enables combat trim since I couldn't remember what it was before.... :salute
This is incorrect. You do not have to disable CT in order to use ele trim. CT is automatically disabled as soon as you fiddle with trim configuration
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CT always off :aok
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If you find yourself compressing a lot in the P38, you are doing something wrong.
Exactly. Compressability is something that is easily avoided and as Del pointed out, you screwed the pooch big time of you find yourself in a compressability state.
The P-38 has two very large rudders that can be used to help slow you down in a dive and along with proper throttle control, you can easily reach 475mph - 500mph IAS in a dive and still recover without having to resort to hitting auto trim.
ack-ack
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1. Throttle back.
2. Trim up.
3. Cross control until you bleed enough speed.
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If you find yourself compressing a lot in the P38, you are doing something wrong.
Yeah....What Del said...
I figure he'll eventually learn how not to compress like the rest of us... :)
But until then, this is a good thing to know...
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Is there any way to get a P.38 out of a Compressed dive. on AH
Saw thisis vid on you tube about a real life compression situ.
Check out this link. And check out the odds 50-2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITRLk9b9AcY
A Highlly Respectfull :salute to Brig Gen Robin Olds U.S.A.F.(retd)
the only fighter pilot in WW2 to shoot down an enemy A/c while his aircraft is in a glide.
trim ur elevator up.....the k key.
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Cut throttle, turn off CT, manually trim up, turn rudder if able, and stick with it. You'll be surprised at how low you'll pull out of it... but you will.
If you're in the L model, deploy those "dive recovery flaps" PRIOR to the dive. Those things are a God send.
Above all, prepare and do you're best not to get into that predictiment to begin with. :) Dont start your dive at 10k above the target, start at 5 or 6k at a low speed if possible. I try and begin the dive at less than 250mph (TAS). Ditto for Mossie, P47, and Tiff.
Good luck. :)
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If you're in the L model, deploy those "dive recovery flaps" PRIOR to the dive. Those things are a God send.
Just like in real life, you can deploy the dive flaps after you've already started your dive in AH.
ack-ack
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Just like in real life, you can deploy the dive flaps after you've already started your dive in AH.
ack-ack
Combat trim should be disabled prior to the dive, or shortly into it for the dive flaps to work properly, otherwise the trim simply shoves the nose down harder when the flaps try to lift it.
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Combat trim should be disabled prior to the dive, or shortly into it for the dive flaps to work properly, otherwise the trim simply shoves the nose down harder when the flaps try to lift it.
You shouldn't have combat trim on to begin with if you're flying the P-38.
ack-ack
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Basically the 38 dives really well, you can catch a la in a dive most of the time. It accelerates really well and coming out of a dive is no prob with trim. Its acctually one of my favorite planes to dive because everyone thinks they can just dive away from you and they cant. (Surprize!)
Skyhawk
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Most compression death dives I see people perform are when they are planning to pork ord at a base and come in from 10k and wait until they get very low to drop their eggs. You can accurately drop your ord at a high alt with a little practice and you shouldn't get anywhere near compression speeds.
:aok
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The problem also stems from the fact that a lot do not understand what compressability is and how it affects the P-38. Below 20,000ft the P-38 will not get into a full compressability state due to the fact that the air flow over the wings will not reach critical mach and the lower you go, the critical mach threshold increases. It's above 23,000 feet where the threat of a full compressability state is very real as the critical mach threshold is lower than it is at lower altitudes. The higher you go, the lower that threshold becomes.
It really does help to make a small chart that lists the critical mach for various altitudes and memorize them. It will help because you'll get a good approximation of where the 'danger zone' is for any given altitude.
Below 10,000ft you can easily get a P-38 into a 475-500mph IAS dive and pull out without having to resort to using auto-trim to recover.
The key is knowing how to control your speed in a dive.
ack-ack
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I hear that in AH2 that Alt-F4 helps the compression in a '38...
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I see the methods they use in these documentaries and just don't udnerstand...
It's like as long as you did a VERY basic ACM on an enemy plane, you suddenly became the ACE.
And the recreations are HORRIBLE too. Makes the pilots in these films look stupid. I mean come on so the p38's jumped a gaggle of guys and lived to tell?
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Check out this film...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITRLk9b9AcY
audentes fortuna juvat
I wouldn't normally take a film like that as factual, but it does have Robin Olds there to verify.
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woo hoo! P38 dogfights episode. Watched the first few minutes, I'll get the rest when I get home.
Thanks Del!
(except for you mauling me last night! After the first I came back for revenge and obviously picked the wrong p38 to pursue, you were the other the promptly nailed me! I blame the spixtweenie that had rammed me a minute before and spread oil all over my canopy :rofl)
:salute
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Apologies 420, it wasn't a fair fight, I hate giving people I know well anything but a fair fight.
Unfortunately, the hordes (more so on Tuesdays) aren't always condusive to a good fight. I hope you understand...
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Oh I know. I spent most of my time in MW and took a few runs in EW beating up some 68's.
I had 2 runs in the MA and you know how they ended :D I still had 3 or 4 scalps each time before you got a hold of me so it was time for a plane with fresh ammo belts and fuel anyways!
<S>
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A Highlly Respectfull :salute to Brig Gen Robin Olds U.S.A.F.(retd)
For anyone who doesn't know already, Robin Olds died back in June 2007. :salute
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For anyone who doesn't know already, Robin Olds died back in June 2007. :salute
Which of course means he finally has time to keep up with the AH2 Forums!
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You shouldn't have combat trim on to begin with if you're flying the P-38.
ack-ack
I got to ask, why not take advantage of combat trim? The advantage of using combat trim is that it keeps the aircraft trimed and flying at it's best possible speed. Where flying the aircraft out of trim means that the aircraft is not flying at it's best possible speed and thus not giving you it's maximum performance. You can use trim at any point and if you do, elevator trim will take you out of CT. You would have to alt x to turn CT back on. Someone tell me what advantage anyone has flying an aircraft out of trim? The CT automaticly provides the best most accurate trim for the aircraft weight and balance. flying with it off, means that after only a few seconds the aircraft is out of trim. Open up the E6B and watch how the weight changes every second the engines are running.
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I got to ask, why not take advantage of combat trim? The advantage of using combat trim is that it keeps the aircraft trimed and flying at it's best possible speed. Where flying the aircraft out of trim means that the aircraft is not flying at it's best possible speed and thus not giving you it's maximum performance. You can use trim at any point and if you do, elevator trim will take you out of CT. You would have to alt x to turn CT back on. Someone tell me what advantage anyone has flying an aircraft out of trim? The CT automaticly provides the best most accurate trim for the aircraft weight and balance. flying with it off, means that after only a few seconds the aircraft is out of trim. Open up the E6B and watch how the weight changes every second the engines are running.
Using CT in the P-38 really limits your dive. CT in the P-38 pushes your nose down when you're diving making it worthless if you are in a compressed dive, in fact it will keep you in a compressed state until you switch to manual.
On some planes CT is fine, the P-38 isn't one of those.
The counter-rotating props make it so that all you have to do is trim the elevator to a little below neutral and you're set.
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I got to ask, why not take advantage of combat trim? The advantage of using combat trim is that it keeps the aircraft trimed and flying at it's best possible speed. Where flying the aircraft out of trim means that the aircraft is not flying at it's best possible speed and thus not giving you it's maximum performance. You can use trim at any point and if you do, elevator trim will take you out of CT. You would have to alt x to turn CT back on. Someone tell me what advantage anyone has flying an aircraft out of trim? The CT automaticly provides the best most accurate trim for the aircraft weight and balance. flying with it off, means that after only a few seconds the aircraft is out of trim. Open up the E6B and watch how the weight changes every second the engines are running.
CT obstructs dive recovery in a plane like the P-38 that can suffer compression. The faster you go, the more it trims nose down, the harder it will be to recover from the dive. CT is merely a table of trim settings for a standard clean configuration. If you are maneuvering with flaps, CT will actually have you out of trim. In the F4U and P-38 specifically, if you are trimmed for cruising speed, and leave it there during combat, as the speed slows down, and flaps deploy, you will generally be close to being in trim. With CT on, in the same situation, you will become very nose light in the same situation. This is not optimal for gunnery to be fighting the "balloning" effect and firing while forcing the stick forward.
Try this in a P-38. Manual trim the elevators to the bottom of the L, reduce speed to 150 and deploy full flaps. Typically you'll have to push forward on the stick very slightly to keep the nose level. Now do the same with CT on, and you'll see how far out of trim you really are.
Also, the way trim works in AH, it effectively adjusts the rest point of the virtual stick in relation to the center point of your joystick. The effect at slow speeds is that you will have less range of motion on your joysticks back stick before reaching stall conditions.
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CT obstructs dive recovery in a plane like the P-38 that can suffer compression. The faster you go, the more it trims nose down, the harder it will be to recover from the dive. CT is merely a table of trim settings for a standard clean configuration. If you are maneuvering with flaps, CT will actually have you out of trim. In the F4U and P-38 specifically, if you are trimmed for cruising speed, and leave it there during combat, as the speed slows down, and flaps deploy, you will generally be close to being in trim. With CT on, in the same situation, you will become very nose light in the same situation. This is not optimal for gunnery to be fighting the "balloning" effect and firing while forcing the stick forward.
Try this in a P-38. Manual trim the elevators to the bottom of the L, reduce speed to 150 and deploy full flaps. Typically you'll have to push forward on the stick very slightly to keep the nose level. Now do the same with CT on, and you'll see how far out of trim you really are.
Also, the way trim works in AH, it effectively adjusts the rest point of the virtual stick in relation to the center point of your joystick. The effect at slow speeds is that you will have less range of motion on your joysticks back stick before reaching stall conditions.
Murdr, are you saying that when I change the airfoil shape of the wing by adding flaps that the CT will not trim out the pitch up?
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Murdr, are you saying that when I change the airfoil shape of the wing by adding flaps that the CT will not trim out the pitch up?
Correct.