Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Blake7 on February 07, 2009, 08:09:09 PM
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just wondered what you guys state side think of the Eurofighter Typhoon ii
If you havent seen one yet check this link out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcFZcF17GJk&NR=1
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On the WIKI there is a pilot who has flown both the Typhoon and the Raptor and speaks highly of each
and this
'In 2005, a trainer Eurofighter T1 was reported to have had a chance encounter the previous year with two U.S. Air Force F-15Es over the Lake District in the north of England. The encounter became a mock dogfight with the Eurofighter allegedly emerging victorious.[98][99][verification needed]
In the 2005 Singapore evaluation, the Typhoon won all three combat tests, including one in which a single Typhoon defeated three RSAF F-16s, and reliably completed all planned flight tests.[100][101][verification needed] Singapore still went on to buy the F-15 due to uncertainty over Typhoon tranche 2 delivery dates.
During the exercise "Typhoon Meet" held in 2008, Eurofighters flew against F/A-18 Hornets, Mirage F1s, Harriers and F-16s in a mock combat exercise. It is claimed that the Eurofighters won all engagements (even outnumbered 8 vs 27) without suffering losses.[102][103]
The aviation magazine "Flug Revue" reports that in 2008 German Typhoon were pitted against French Rafales. The results are said to be "extremely gratifying" for the Typhoon based on the "much greater thrust of the EJ200 engine". [104]'
And, afterall, if annoying the French isn't mission accomplished then what is :)
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:D :D :D :D enough said :salute
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ok F22 Vs Typhoon What Would be the outcome
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raptor, this thing isn't stealth, they tried to make it stealthy but it's no raptor
the US has always been on the cutting age with military technology... thats about it, our cars suck (almost as much as british cars :lol)
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i cant say nothing about British cars since i own a 99 Chrysler Neon (yes they do sell them in the uk)
And What about The Shelby Mustang GT500 no way does that car suck.
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i cant say nothing about British cars since i own a 99 Chrysler Neon (yes they do sell them in the uk)
And What about The Shelby Mustang GT500 no way does that car suck.
In 40 years of driving, I'll bet that I've owned more British vehicles than most Brits. A '64 Cortina, a '67 MGB, a '69 Spitfire, a '72 MG Midget, a '78 MG Midget, plus a 1969 BSA Victor and a '73 Norton 850 Commando.
How about French cars? A 1980 Renault R5 and a 1982 Renault Fuego Turbo (wife's).
Italian? '58 Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce and a '71 1750 GT Veloce.
Japanese? '80 Toyota Corolla SR5 Liftback (wife's), '85 Nissan 300ZX, '88 Nissan Sentra (wife's) a '92 Suzuki Sidekick 4dr, an '02 Subaru WRX, an '03 Suzuki Aerio SX and another '03 Aerio sedan (wife's), and an '04 Honda S2000.
American iron: '65 Chevy Corvair, '67 Chevy Corvair Monza, '81 Buick Regal Turbo, '86 Shelby GLHS, '94 Dodge Grand Caravan (wife's), a '63 Willys-Jeep CJ-5 (Buick 231ci Turbo, Borg-Warner 4-speed, roll cage, 2.5" suspension lift, 2" body lift, 36" Cepeks. Rancho shocks and dual steering dampers), a '92 Jeep Wrangler YJ Sport (5 speed, 1.5" suspension lift, 30" BFGs) and an 08' Jeep Wrangler JK (32" BFG MTs, Mopar rock rails, Mopar steering gear skid plate, Skidrow Evap canister skid plate, Mopar windshield mounted mirrors for when doors are off, Freedom Top, KC lights, and a lot more fun stuff). Add to that another three motorcycles over the years.
Over the course of 40 years, we've (mostly me) gone through 30 cars, SUVs and bikes. More than half of them new, the balance used. Too many, far too many. The Shelby and Jeeps were my favorites. All very entertaining.
Over the past few years, we cleaned out the garage. Sold the WRX, sold the S2000 to a guy headed to Florida, and I traded in the Aerio SX when I bought the new Jeep.
The Jeep is warrantied bumper to bumper for life... Really, Chrysler offered to extend the lifetime powertrain coverage to the entire vehicle for $1,600. An A/C compressor costs $900... I don't expect to buy another vehicle for a long time. My wife doesn't believe me.... I wonder why?
My regards,
Widewing
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i cant say nothing about British cars since i own a 99 Chrysler Neon (yes they do sell them in the uk)
And What about The Shelby Mustang GT500 no way does that car suck.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<drools over the gt500.
raptor would win i think.
i saw the post stating that the eurofighter took on the falcons, eagles, and hornets.......but i would have to see that myself. i think.
as for stealth.......
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haha did you enjoy the R5 widewing ? :D
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Was it the regular R5, or a "Turbo"?
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Standard R5... Was an utterly reliable commuter car. 1.4 liter, 4 speed (console mounted shifter, unlike the odd dash mounting in others). Quite amazing in snow. I drove it thru 16 inches of extremely cold, very powdery snow. We opted to use the R5 for a ski trip to Vermont as the rear drive Regal and Corolla were useless in snow.
R5s sold in the states carried the ridiculous "LeCar" badge. Actually, huge stickers on the bottom edge of each door. After much searching, I purchased new stickers converting LeCar into LePew.
My regards,
Widewing
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Standard R5... Was an utterly reliable commuter car. 1.4 liter, 4 speed (console mounted shifter, unlike the odd dash mounting in others). Quite amazing in snow. I drove it thru 16 inches of extremely cold, very powdery snow. We opted to use the R5 for a ski trip to Vermont as the rear drive Regal and Corolla were useless in snow.
R5s sold in the states carried the ridiculous "LeCar" badge. Actually, huge stickers on the bottom edge of each door. After much searching, I purchased new stickers converting LeCar into LePew.
My regards,
Widewing
Hey now you know why all our cars are front wheel drives...can't think of good reason to build back wheel drives actually. LePew seems good for a R5 :rock
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Come on.. A beauty like the pininfarina 406 deserves rwd..
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can't think of good reason to build back wheel drives actually.
Better wt distribution for 1.
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Hey now you know why all our cars are front wheel drives...can't think of good reason to build back wheel drives actually. LePew seems good for a R5 :rock
Renault's front drive system on the R5 didn't use a transverse engine, making it the odd duck of the type. It worked well tho... The damn Weber wouldn't hold idle well without regular adjustment. I finally went with aftermarket "gross jets" for it. Improved power, mileage and it idled properly. It was a bare-bones car.. However, that made it simple and simple meant it was extremely reliable. Aside from upgrading the Weber, the only not normal wear component ever replaced was a frayed throttle cable. Even that was 5 minute installation. Other than that, a replacement exhaust system at around 40k miles, one set of brake pads and a new set of Michelins at 50k miles. I could eek out 40 mpg on the highway. I sold it to a neighbor in 1985, and he drove it locally for another 5 years.
My regards,
Widewing
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woops my little side comment started a side conversation lol
back to the question at hand!
once again, raptor, because if theres one thing we're good at, its making planes
you don't mess with lockheed martin
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My latest Jeep, on Fire Island about two weeks after purchase. No mods yet, other than adding the 1950's 4 Wheel Drive decals to the sides and back. The Goodyears on it in the photo are back on it now. Much better in snow that the BFG Mud/Terrains, which will go back on in the spring. The BFGs are mounted on Cragar 17"x7.5" steel wheels (black powder coat). Steel is better for harsh off-road conditions. Aluminum wheels often crack when really pounded. Steel wheels are $80, the mags run over $200.
(http://home.att.net/~historyworld/OceanBeachJeep.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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The Euro fighter wouldn't stand a chance against a F22 or the Russian Sukhoi 35.
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The Euro fighter wouldn't stand a chance against a F22 or the Russian Sukhoi 35.
Of course it would, at least against the SU-35. Dont forget the Euro's are making what is widely acknowledged to be the best ATA missile right now. The Meteor BVRAAM, or at least it will be equipping EFs in the future. The EF is a competitive design with a fine sensors suite. All the American experts who have either been involved in the program, or have flown the EF, have been impressed by it. The real problem with it however is its so darn expensive. No matter how you cut it, or what you call it, you are paying 5'th generation prices for a 4.5 generation aircraft.
But theres no question the EF would perform very well against the SU's or the MIG super planes :huh being built by Russia. Of course nothing can touch the F-22 but the EF wasn't designed to fight the F-22 and I doubt we'll be going to war against NATO any time soon.
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while were all talking about planes and cars check out this link
BUGATTI VEYRON Vs EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON ii DRAG RACE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NZ9X9A2efA
Tell me what you think of the vid here
Begs the Question Veyron Vs Raptor?
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any of you read the story about how about a third of russias fighter aircraft are air worthy, no $$$ to maintain the rest of their fleet
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Of course it would, at least against the SU-35. Dont forget the Euro's are making what is widely acknowledged to be the best ATA missile right now. The Meteor BVRAAM, or at least it will be equipping EFs in the future. The EF is a competitive design with a fine sensors suite. All the American experts who have either been involved in the program, or have flown the EF, have been impressed by it. The real problem with it however is its so darn expensive. No matter how you cut it, or what you call it, you are paying 5'th generation prices for a 4.5 generation aircraft.
But theres no question the EF would perform very well against the SU's or the MIG super planes :huh being built by Russia. Of course nothing can touch the F-22 but the EF wasn't designed to fight the F-22 and I doubt we'll be going to war against NATO any time soon.
i would think that without its stealth capability, that a few fighters out there would compete very well with the raptor........i still however think we have the best equipment in the world......
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Stealth and missles aside, I wouldn't wanna dogfight against this thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWN3-s9ACpw
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My thoughts? I am personally impressed with the new plane the Germans made. Isn't that the one that may be the all around plane for all the countries? I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's that one. I do hope it goes into service, I'd like to see how it performs against Russian wings though.
:salute
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re Raptor and Typhoon, not really comparable.
Typhoon is as good or better than the rest, the Raptor is really currently in a class of 1, nothing comparable YET.
best said here
Conclusions
What conclusions can we draw about the Typhoon ? The notion that the aircraft is "almost as good as an F-22" is not supportable, indeed upgrading the F-15 with engines and a radar/IRS&T/AAM package of the same generation as that of the Typhoon would equalise almost all advantages held by the Typhoon over older F-15C/E variants. By the same token, no upgrades performed on the F/A-18A/C would equalise the performance advantages of the Typhoon over these aircraft.
The strength of the Typhoon is its very modern and comprehensive avionic package, especially that in the RAF variant, and its excellent agility when operated around its optimum combat radius of about 300 NMI (a figure to be found in older Eurofighter literature, which has since disappeared with the export drive to compete against the bigger F-15 and F-22).
The Typhoon's weaknesses are its F/A-18C class weight and thrust and the implications of this in combat at extended operational radii, and the longer term sensitivity of its BVR weapons advantage to equivalent technological developments in opposing fighters.
In terms of where to position the Typhoon in the current menagerie of fighter aircraft, it can be best described as an F/A-18C sized fighter with BVR systems and agility performance better than older F-15 models, similar to growth F-15 models with same generation systems and engines, but inferior to the F-15 in useful operating radius. The Typhoon is not a stealth aircraft, despite various assertions to this effect, nor is it a genuine supercruiser like the F-22. Its design incorporates none of the features seen in very low observable types, nor does the EJ200 incorporate the unique design features of the F119 and F120 powerplants.
The Typhoon is certainly not a lemon, although the wisdom of mass producing a high performance conventional fighter of its ilk in a period where stealth is about to hit mass production in the F-22 and JSF programs could be seriously questioned. It represents what is likely to be the last major evolutionary step in the teen series design philosophy.
http://www.ausairpower.net/typhoon.html
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My latest Jeep, on Fire Island about two weeks after purchase. No mods yet, other than adding the 1950's 4 Wheel Drive decals to the sides and back. The Goodyears on it in the photo are back on it now. Much better in snow that the BFG Mud/Terrains, which will go back on in the spring. The BFGs are mounted on Cragar 17"x7.5" steel wheels (black powder coat). Steel is better for harsh off-road conditions. Aluminum wheels often crack when really pounded. Steel wheels are $80, the mags run over $200.
(http://home.att.net/~historyworld/OceanBeachJeep.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
hmmm...no syringes or dead bodies coming in with surf... :D
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Porche ( Por-sha) beats all ur stupid cars
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb_jqsg13wY&eurl=http://www.twittlefrance.com/topic/3279202/1/Discussions/Eurofighter-Typhoon-beat-the-F-22-raptor.html&feature=player_embedded
^claims in 2006 they went head to head and typhoon won. the source is in the video, but I havent been able to locate it in black and white.
can anyone else find it?
also, an interesting article
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123010102
p.s. turn sound down b/c the video has some horrible techno music.
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Didn't watch the video. Dont need to, "gee I was expecting Pro-F22 news coming out of France". :huh No serious analyst would think for a moment the EF would have a chance against an F-22 equipped air force. However that fact means little because America cant produce a "less then 5'th generation fighter" to compete with the F-22 either. That, and the countries producing the EF are among our closest allies.
At the same time when you look at the big picture I'd say the EF is the best less then F-22 fighter bomber on the market. You cant see the big picture at air shows. The "Big Picture" is the fusion of avionics, performance, weapons, computing power, support, that make a high tech fighter worth the $$. The EF has won some high profile foreign orders but unfortunately for the program the cost is high and many countries, at least those that can afford it, will be wanting the Lo/attack mission going to the stealth F-35. Last I heard the Euro consortium was now hoping for an export potential of more then 400. Thats about 1/2 they were expecting when they first rolled the EF off the assembly line.
On the other hand there are renewed whispers of F-22 export. New administration in office, times is getting hard, USAF wants more but cant pay for them due to the limited run, and they want to keep the production line working. The Aussies, Japanese, and Israelis, smell a victory and are likely to keep at it. Its very likely were going to see F-22s exported to a limited customer base.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb_jqsg13wY&eurl=http://www.twittlefrance.com/topic/3279202/1/Discussions/Eurofighter-Typhoon-beat-the-F-22-raptor.html&feature=player_embedded
^claims in 2006 they went head to head and typhoon won. the source is in the video, but I havent been able to locate it in black and white.
can anyone else find it?
also, an interesting article
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123010102
p.s. turn sound down b/c the video has some horrible techno music.
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Porche ( Por-sha) beats all ur stupid cars
It's "Porsche".... Porsche's are fun... Too expensive. My Shelby GLHS was a Porsche killer in its day. Its day was 1986.. Only the 911 Turbo Carrera was faster... At many times the price.
I work with a guy who drives a '07 Boxster S. I've driven it a few times. Good handling, decent power, but my S2000 was nipping at its heels.
However, my Jeep is far more useful. I can go damn near anywhere. Roads are optional. Top off, doors off enjoying the weather. It's a Jeep thing and no other vehicle can match that. Current Wranglers are the most capable off road vehicles you can buy off of a showroom.
As I explained to my co-worker, The Jeep has an advantage in parking too... I can park my Jeep ON his Porsche..
My regards,
Widewing
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb_jqsg13wY&eurl=http://www.twittlefrance.com/topic/3279202/1/Discussions/Eurofighter-Typhoon-beat-the-F-22-raptor.html&feature=player_embedded
^claims in 2006 they went head to head and typhoon won. the source is in the video, but I havent been able to locate it in black and white.
can anyone else find it?
Believe this has already been hashed out before and I recall that it was pretty much made up. I'm sure you can find the thread again, just will have search pretty good for it.
ack-ack
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Well lets see if we can get a raptor pilot on here to cough up some seriously classified information for an eastern block type troll. Any takers? How about a contractor that would like to lose their security clearance? Still no takers? Gosh, well go fish.
INFIDEL>
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Believe this has already been hashed out before and I recall that it was pretty much made up. I'm sure you can find the thread again, just will have search pretty good for it.
ack-ack
Please do.
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Please do.
By all means search for it, it was posted in the OC forum about 2-3 years ago. Good luck.
ack-ack
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I don't think so. Thanks anyway.
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It's "Porsche".... Porsche's are fun... Too expensive. My Shelby GLHS was a Porsche killer in its day. Its day was 1986.. Only the 911 Turbo Carrera was faster... At many times the price.
My regards,
Widewing
Omni or Charger?
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You can't believe any of these "stories" about which airplane beat which. Without knowing the conditions these report are pure nonsense. I flew in red flag as a bad guy. The USAF gave the F15s AMRAAM. We got AIM9 G/H. These are rear quarter IR seekers only. We got pretty beat up pretty quick. One of our guys took his division low and outside the area. They popped up in the middle of the tanker tracks and wasted most of the F15 and two tankers. So which plane is better? The F14 or F15? Sort of depends on which side of the story you hear.
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You can't believe any of these "stories" about which airplane beat which. Without knowing the conditions these report are pure nonsense. I flew in red flag as a bad guy. The USAF gave the F15s AMRAAM. We got AIM9 G/H. These are rear quarter IR seekers only. We got pretty beat up pretty quick. One of our guys took his division low and outside the area. They popped up in the middle of the tanker tracks and wasted most of the F15 and two tankers. So which plane is better? The F14 or F15? Sort of depends on which side of the story you hear.
i had often thought that things like this happen. they kind of stack the cards in the "good guys" favor.
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On another message forum there was a discussion about the Iranian F-14s and many said that they wouldn't get off the ground. Then a voice of reason, much like Mace, a USAF F-15 driver noted that you never underestimate your opponent. He stated he was waxed in an F-15 by an early model F-14 and conversely waxed a newer generation F-15 with a T-38.
Like Mace said it all depends of the circumstances. Would I bet against the Raptor...NO but depending on the circumstances, i.e. the Typhie was allowed to get in close it could have a chance.
Just my $.02
Regards,
YAF1
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i cant say nothing about British cars since i own a 99 Chrysler Neon (yes they do sell them in the uk)
And What about The Shelby Mustang GT500 no way does that car suck.
Key words are Shelby and GT500... someone had to take a production car and make it better (thats not how it should go)..... it should be a production car is the best (they have the most cash)
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Key words are Shelby and GT500... someone had to take a production car and make it better (thats not how it should go)..... it should be a production car is the best (they have the most cash)
The Shelby GT500 IS a production car.
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Omni or Charger?
1986 was Omni.... 1987 GLHS Charger was heavier with more front and rear overhang, which hurt its slalom numbers.
The GLHS was a street legal race car... And just about as unreliable too. But, in its day, it was extremely formidable. Even today, they often dominate SCCA Solo events.
My regards,
Widewing
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It's "Porsche".... Porsche's are fun... Too expensive. My Shelby GLHS was a Porsche killer in its day. Its day was 1986.. Only the 911 Turbo Carrera was faster... At many times the price.
I work with a guy who drives a '07 Boxster S. I've driven it a few times. Good handling, decent power, but my S2000 was nipping at its heels.
However, my Jeep is far more useful. I can go damn near anywhere. Roads are optional. Top off, doors off enjoying the weather. It's a Jeep thing and no other vehicle can match that. Current Wranglers are the most capable off road vehicles you can buy off of a showroom.
As I explained to my co-worker, The Jeep has an advantage in parking too... I can park my Jeep ON his Porsche..
My regards,
Widewing
+1, my friend has a Jeep, and it's a very good ranch vehicle.
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As an odd speculation perhaps, but I can see (?) some factors making the Raptor obsolete if met by a force of an advanced nation.
1. Links. The modern fighters are all relying on links. Data needs to be fed to them if they cannot acquire the data by their own radar. Scramble issue. In a rough case, high alt nuke will toast...a lot of stuff. (computers)
2. Tracking by other sources than radar. Okay. The Raptor is about invisible to radar. But it does give some IR signal. And it is visible. And sound. And perhaps transmission. (radio, onboard radar, etc). Even tracking from top (Satellite looking at aircraft on-top, be it IR or visual). As soon as tracked...SAM's and such are fast on the road.
3. Daylight. Yes, it may be invisible to the human eye like a bullet, but not to modern equipment.
So, it is, in case spotted, a formidable adversary. The worst scenario is being locked into a close combat with multiple adversaries of similar equipment. Hence, threat 4:
4. Now, I ponder on RC fighters, which would be easier to build than Raptors, and may be in some years to come, a naughty surprize. And while many a supporter for the necessity of a manned fighter base their logics on the "must" of a ground link, - today, no fighter will do so much without one. (interception most important). Imagine the nightmare, - RC/AI light aircraft, interceptors/special air defence capable of more G's than any human, yet possibly powered by one, no life at stake (since the pilot is in his...bunker). Tracking could be done by the same equipment as a fighter, with further processing at the user's handle (which has no weight restrictions).
As a brighter side for the Raptor, it could have such...as an escort. Or decoy....
I got those ideas after watching a program on the History channel (I think) on future air combat. It almost looked like an F22 ad. Unforunately I cannot find it. It was like 90 minutes in 9 parts if I recall.
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1, Ever hear of EMP hardening? We design aircraft to fling nukes and then survive the EMP blast.
2, Getting close enough to track IR doesnt help you much when youv already been dead for 5 mins.
3, Your saying what? The eye can see it during day or modern equipment can? Iceland has no military right?
4, There isnt any single adversaries of similiar equipment so how can there be multiples?
5, If remote fighters were ever to be a possibility then I doubt any country other then America will be first to field them. Actually we already do, at least the recon/attack type. Dont worry Angus, nobody is going to be able to challenge NATO in our lifetimes.
As an odd speculation perhaps, but I can see (?) some factors making the Raptor obsolete if met by a force of an advanced nation.
1. Links. The modern fighters are all relying on links. Data needs to be fed to them if they cannot acquire the data by their own radar. Scramble issue. In a rough case, high alt nuke will toast...a lot of stuff. (computers)
2. Tracking by other sources than radar. Okay. The Raptor is about invisible to radar. But it does give some IR signal. And it is visible. And sound. And perhaps transmission. (radio, onboard radar, etc). Even tracking from top (Satellite looking at aircraft on-top, be it IR or visual). As soon as tracked...SAM's and such are fast on the road.
3. Daylight. Yes, it may be invisible to the human eye like a bullet, but not to modern equipment.
So, it is, in case spotted, a formidable adversary. The worst scenario is being locked into a close combat with multiple adversaries of similar equipment. Hence, threat 4:
4. Now, I ponder on RC fighters, which would be easier to build than Raptors, and may be in some years to come, a naughty surprize. And while many a supporter for the necessity of a manned fighter base their logics on the "must" of a ground link, - today, no fighter will do so much without one. (interception most important). Imagine the nightmare, - RC/AI light aircraft, interceptors/special air defence capable of more G's than any human, yet possibly powered by one, no life at stake (since the pilot is in his...bunker). Tracking could be done by the same equipment as a fighter, with further processing at the user's handle (which has no weight restrictions).
As a brighter side for the Raptor, it could have such...as an escort. Or decoy....
I got those ideas after watching a program on the History channel (I think) on future air combat. It almost looked like an F22 ad. Unforunately I cannot find it. It was like 90 minutes in 9 parts if I recall.
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Key words are Shelby and GT500... someone had to take a production car and make it better (thats not how it should go)..... it should be a production car is the best (they have the most cash)
production cars have to meet the demands of too many different areas. if i had the money, i'd buy a shelby in the blink of an eye.....beautiful car, and fast too...not the fastest......but still crazy fast.
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1, Ever hear of EMP hardening? We design aircraft to fling nukes and then survive the EMP blast.
2, Getting close enough to track IR doesnt help you much when youv already been dead for 5 mins.
3, Your saying what? The eye can see it during day or modern equipment can? Iceland has no military right?
4, There isnt any single adversaries of similiar equipment so how can there be multiples?
5, If remote fighters were ever to be a possibility then I doubt any country other then America will be first to field them. Actually we already do, at least the recon/attack type. Dont worry Angus, nobody is going to be able to challenge NATO in our lifetimes.
TOO many of the wrong people thinking along the lines of #5 will be our downfall. overconfidence.
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F-22 up against...well...it was made in America, anyway. This is a bootleg cap off a HUD video; there are those who don't want this released any more than Satrapa's pipper-on-helmet pic that ended up in AW&ST and nearly convinced the Japanese to by F-14s. HAAAARRR!!
(http://www.ahevents.com/Raptordead.png)
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1, Ever hear of EMP hardening? We design aircraft to fling nukes and then survive the EMP blast.
2, Getting close enough to track IR doesn't help you much when youv already been dead for 5 mins.
3, Your saying what? The eye can see it during day or modern equipment can? Iceland has no military right?
4, There isnt any single adversaries of similiar equipment so how can there be multiples?
5, If remote fighters were ever to be a possibility then I doubt any country other then America will be first to field them. Actually we already do, at least the recon/attack type. Dont worry Angus, nobody is going to be able to challenge NATO in our lifetimes.
It's thinking like this that gets you VERY dead, VERY fast. The Raptor is a GREAT aircraft. Top of the line. But it isn't invincible.
1. The Raptor might survive the EMP blast, but what about the E-3 that's transmitting the data? That's an easy missile/guns kill. And the signal station back home? While we're talking nukes, that would probably be knocked out pretty quickly. And what about electronic warfare? I know it's insane, but every computer can be hit with a virus. The Raptor can transmit and receive EVERYTHING it's computer processes. So what happens when some insane lunatic with a mastery of computer writes a virus that, when transmitted to the Raptor, powers down it's computer? Yeah, it's not likely any time soon, but it is VERY possible. Computers are never completely secure.
2. Who says you have to be close? IR can be tracked from anywhere... from a carefully placed balloon to a ground station, and while I'm not familiar with the quality of our IR technology, who's to say it cannot be tracked by satelite?
3. No, computers will see it. Look at the thread in the O Club about the transonic light refraction. If a camera can pick that up, it can pick up a plane.
4. VERY VERY wrong. The Raptor has three major advantages: Stealth, BVR equipment, and supercruise. As we have been discussing, stealth isn't perfect. F-117s have been detected. So, lets say Russia launches some Su-37s to intercept. The BVR equipment can only track so many aircraft at once. Russia has no problems sacrificing hundreds of men for a small victory. So, we kill 12-13 of those Su-37s. Supercruise requires time to accelerate, time you cannot be maneuvering because the Gs will knock you out pretty quickly. So, a VERY hot engine, moving in a straight line. Nice IR missile target. So lets say the Raptor gets down and dirty. Anyone doubt an Su-37 is an even match in maneuverability with an F-22? And what about the MiG 1.44 project. The Su-47?
5. Remotes are dangerous, but they have their weaknesses. I'm honestly not too worried about those, but do not ever think it's impossible to challenge NATO anytime soon. Everyone is vulnerable.
These are all pretty far-fetched ideas that seem impossible, but just how long ago would we have scoffed at a plane invisible to radar, that cruises at mach 2 while firing missiles so far over the horizon the pilot's might never meet? Technology changes fast, and the Raptor may already be obsolete. It's kinda hard to judge how well she would stack up against a modern enemy when all she has done is play war-games with other American birds.
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F-22 up against...well...it was made in America, anyway. This is a bootleg cap off a HUD video; there are those who don't want this released any more than Satrapa's pipper-on-helmet pic that ended up in AW&ST and nearly convinced the Japanese to by F-14s. HAAAARRR!!
(http://www.ahevents.com/Raptordead.png)
IIRC Eagl said that pic isn't what it looks like.
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46:
"3, Your saying what? The eye can see it during day or modern equipment can? Iceland has no military right?"
What I meant is that for the eye it is very hard to spot something that fast, even from the ground. (not mentioning air-to-air). There is a nice description of this from WW2, where the sailors of the Tirpitz watched the tallboys falling from the Lancasters, then suddenly they couldn't see them any more.
But modern optical equipment can. The documentary I watched had this in mind, - if the aircraft is going offensive over enemy territory it would be at night. Or on-top ;)
Nothing can meet the Raptor today. For those powers who want to meet it, uncloaking it is the vital thing. It will eventually be possible, those were just my thoughts on how.
When the first Stealth bombers started sneaking about (At NIGHT) they were told to be completely invisible. They were not quite always, and did at times get tracked. Hush-hush. The Sweeds tracked and followed one for a while, - the interceptor was a rather old-generation aircraft. And some stealth aircraft have been shot down...
We do not have a military BTW, just guests. So I have seen many modern combat aircraft whoooshing past me. British, French, American, even Swedish. I could normally see them, and definately hear them :D
Armed with advanced optics and a good artie network, I guess I could have shot them too :devil
Anyway, NATO holds the lead, and nobody can touch them in the air now. But you have strong powers who will go far in investing to change that. I'll try to find the documentary, it's fun to watch.
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Ahh, - found it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KpjgHYjcA4&feature=related
Enjoy ;)
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This is the strangest thread I've seen in awhile. Half of it is about planes and the other half about cars. :rofl
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IIRC Eagl said that pic isn't what it looks like.
Nothing ever is :)
A picture like this out of context is a Rorschach blot. More useful for the following conversation than the image itself.
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Funy thing about these threads is we have pages of technical data, BVR and all the rest, bottom line is that if any of these hitech crates get in range, then a farmer with an MG could bring one down, not to mention some sort of large calibre weapon placed in the right spot, Ain't no gizmo/gadget/radar in the world going to save you from a round in the right place.
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Funy thing about these threads is we have pages of technical data, BVR and all the rest, bottom line is that if any of these hitech crates get in range, then a farmer with an MG could bring one down, not to mention some sort of large calibre weapon placed in the right spot, Ain't no gizmo/gadget/radar in the world going to save you from a round in the right place.
And therein squats the toad.
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if i remember correctly the raptor is viable to radar for some time when it's deploying weapons . enough time to get a track . Russian IR can also track upto 35 miles in the older Su27 and MIG 29's.
3 years ago in Farnborough the b2 spirit was tracked by RAF SAM systems (UK developed) . not such a great idea to rely on just one trick .
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if i remember correctly the raptor is viable to radar for some time when it's deploying weapons . enough time to get a track . Russian IR can also track upto 35 miles in the older Su27 and MIG 29's.
3 years ago in Farnborough the b2 spirit was tracked by RAF SAM systems (UK developed) . not such a great idea to rely on just one trick .
Weapons bay pops open, missile launches, doors close. Takes a couple of seconds at most and far too short of a time to develop a radar track. A spot detection maybe...track no way. That detection would be thrown out with the rest of the random noise in the EM spectrum. Even if did notice the detection1 it wouldn't matter much since you still need to maintain radar track to guide a missile and the track will be lost when the doors are closed. Long range IR is a really weak and unreliable system with lots of false targets and it's very susceptible to atmospheric disturbances, hardly a major threat. As far a Farnborough is concerned don't believe everything that someone claims. I'll bet that whatever guy made that claim worked for the SAM manufacturer (Farnborough is just a big trade fair after all) and said it to a prospective customer. Also consider that if the SAM system in question was also at the airshow then it was probably only a mile or two away. Blast away with enough power at a short enough range pointed directly at a visible target and sure, it could probably detect something but if your radar shows you a B2 a mile away then it really doesn't matter much does it? Also remember that even stealth airplanes fly in airspace with other aircraft and therefore have the ability to be "non-stealthy". The FAA and ICAO would not be happy with "invisible" airplanes flying around in the middle of a bunch of airliners. He probably had his ModeIII on and that's what the SAM was tracking (if tracking anything that is).
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I heard that the typhoons desighn is inherentlly unstable and its the computers that make it fly the way it does.
But the computers are so well advanced in the Typhoon that when there is something wrong with the a/c The Technition be he an Airframes or Electronics fitter,has only got to plug a lap top or something simular in to the A/C and the a/c(its Computers) will tell him whats wrong/ what needs replacing and even the part number.
But i am already wondering whats next for the modern fighter aircraft.when the Raptor and the Rafale the Typhoon and the Grippen are considered old aircraft. Whats Next. Pilotless R/C/A/C With Extreme manouverbilaty is what i have heard.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
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I heard that the typhoons desighn is inherentlly unstable and its the computers that make it fly the way it does.
All of the latest generation are pretty unstable without the computers. It's called "relaxed static stability". It makes the airplane far more agile but would require constant pilot inputs just to fly straight and level without the computers. Actually, even more to the point I think only the F18 still has a direct mechanical backup system to it's fly-by-wire capabilities. There are many redundancies built in (multiple computers, multiple data buses, etc) but if you were to lose the computers your only option is pretty much to jump out.
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The F-16 started the fly by wire thingy IIRC, and btw all aircraft nowadays require laptops to diagnose the problems. Hell even cars do !
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this is the actual unit which tracked the B2, the latest Rapier is a very effective system:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Rapier-Jernas.jpg/800px-Rapier-Jernas.jpg)
and heres it is :)
(http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_pics/air_b-2_close_view_ir.gif)
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this is the actual unit which tracked the B2, the latest Rapier is a very effective system:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Rapier-Jernas.jpg/800px-Rapier-Jernas.jpg)
and heres it is :)
(http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_pics/air_b-2_close_view_ir.gif)
LOL...that's simply a close range IR optical tracker. It could also easily track that man in the suit walking but it doesn't mean it would be tactically effective by itself or at long range. IR like that is great when you can slave it to something like a radar track. Otherwise it's like searching the skies looking through a soda straw.
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err yeah, the rapier radar is now on a separate trailer, optical on the main unit, and yes of course they are integrated. I know it was at 1 mile range and low, but the atmospherics were far from ideal (note photo: a typical English summers day ;)) and of all the systems there it was the only one to get any track.
B2s have been tracked by RN radar as well, last gen radar, last gen stealth. Cant help feeling that the best sensors are only a little way behind the stealth. However pilots report the raptor as "irritating" because even when you can see it up close through the canopy, the weapons still cant maintain lock on the slippery sob. grrrr!
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My latest Jeep, on Fire Island about two weeks after purchase. No mods yet, other than adding the 1950's 4 Wheel Drive decals to the sides and back. The Goodyears on it in the photo are back on it now. Much better in snow that the BFG Mud/Terrains, which will go back on in the spring. The BFGs are mounted on Cragar 17"x7.5" steel wheels (black powder coat). Steel is better for harsh off-road conditions. Aluminum wheels often crack when really pounded. Steel wheels are $80, the mags run over $200.
(http://home.att.net/~historyworld/OceanBeachJeep.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
My friend has one for his ranch, GREAT Jeep... This past weekend, we were screwing around with some rednecks, (he owns a very large rock quarry, so there's piles of rocks on teach side of the road) and we climbed this hill, and went through mud like nothing... This big ol' 250 behind us got stuck, and we had to pull 'em out.
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My latest Jeep, on Fire Island about two weeks after purchase. No mods yet, other than adding the 1950's 4 Wheel Drive decals to the sides and back. The Goodyears on it in the photo are back on it now. Much better in snow that the BFG Mud/Terrains, which will go back on in the spring. The BFGs are mounted on Cragar 17"x7.5" steel wheels (black powder coat). Steel is better for harsh off-road conditions. Aluminum wheels often crack when really pounded. Steel wheels are $80, the mags run over $200.
(http://home.att.net/~historyworld/OceanBeachJeep.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
(sorry for Hi-Jacking the thread)
Do you frequent the JK Forums? (http://jk-forum.com/index.php)
If you are not a member, you should join and check out the East Coast section for rides and Jeep get togthers
We wheel all over the Mid-Atlantic and have a ride set up to Rausch Creek in PA this weekend.
Here is my JK from one of our last get outings at RC (http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r213/joanfstel/415.jpg)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r213/joanfstel/282.jpg)
Although a little long from the Island, George Washington National Forest in VA is a big one for our Jeep wheeling adventures:
http://picasaweb.google.com/jnrstel/GWNF1108081?authkey=qyOpRiqekVg#slideshow/5267033431013446178
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(sorry for Hi-Jacking the thread)
Do you frequent the JK Forums? (http://jk-forum.com/index.php)
If you are not a member, you should join and check out the East Coast section for rides and Jeep get togthers
We wheel all over the Mid-Atlantic and have a ride set up to Rausch Creek in PA this weekend.
Here is my JK from one of our last get outings at RC (http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r213/joanfstel/415.jpg)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r213/joanfstel/282.jpg)
Although a little long from the Island, George Washington National Forest in VA is a big one for our Jeep wheeling adventures:
http://picasaweb.google.com/jnrstel/GWNF1108081?authkey=qyOpRiqekVg#slideshow/5267033431013446178
We were trail running with some friends in the Lehighton/Jim Thrope (PA) area back in October. Muddy as hell too. Spent two hours cleaning it afterward.
Yep, I'm a member of the JK-forum. I'm also a member of MilitaryJeepers.com and several others. MilitaryJeepers is for active duty and veterans who own Jeeps of any kind. Nice group of users.
One thing I noticed on the JK-Forum is that there are so many Jeep owners who don't know the difference between their dipstick and a tire iron. Completely, utterly devoid of mechanical knowledge. Did you see the post where a guy thought he had termites in his fiberglass top?
Then you have the knuckleheads who figure the solution to all problems is to air down their tires. One unbelievable character insisted that airing down to 2 psi was ideal from driving on snow covered trails. 2 psi??!! He's got a 3,500 lb vehicle, and 2 psi is simply flat... Great way to completely destroy the tires. Some of those guys make Forrest Gump look like a Harvard graduate. "Stupid is as stupid does, sir"
Reminds me of a guy here on Long Island. He spent over 6 grand modding the hell out of his '07 Unlimited. 4" Teraflex lift, 37" Procomps on 16" wheels and more armor than a Bradley Fighting Vehicle. Two of us had to pull him out of the sand when he buried it up to the frame rails... Those Procomps moved more sand than a backhoe... Problem was, he didn't go forward; he went straight down. He had never driven on the beach before. I have doubts he had ever been off road prior to that day. We coached him on beach driving and had him turn traction control back on as he couldn't seem to avoid spinning the wheels like mad. He managed not to get buried again..
I looked at your photos and those from the Virginia group. Nice bunch of common-sense Jeepers enjoying themselves. Is that nice looking Red X yours? Seeing that stock Yellow X S24 running with the Rubicons was interesting. Considering that they still had the Goodyear SR-A rubber, they did very well.
SR-As are much better than many guys with heavily modded Jeeps will readily admit. They are certainly better in snow than any M/T tire. Self cleaning lugs are not what you want. Nothing sticks better to snow than snow. M/Ts throw snow everywhere but don't bite. The SR-As load up with snow and bite well. That is why my BFGs are in the garage and the SR-As on the Jeep for the winter. Traction control isn't much help if there's no traction to control. ;)
Then again, a surprising number of JK drivers switch off the ESP and traction control when it snows. This, I believe, is due to really bad advice from other Jeep owners. ESP and traction control were incorporated precisely for those types of conditions.
That's why I tell people to be careful with what they read on Jeep forums. There's as much bad info as good. One TJ owner stated that Brake Lock Differentials were just a gimmick.. The fact that a JK X model will scale any obstacle a stock TJ Rubi can because of BLD would quiet this silliness, or so you would think. TJ and YJ owners simply don't understand... the JK is a completely different animal, more capable than the previous models and more capable than any other factory stock 4x4 you can buy. I've owned a moderately upgraded YJ and a heavily modded CJ-5. I can take my stock JK nearly anywhere I could drive either of those, and do so in far more comfort.
My regards,
Widewing
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LOL...that's simply a close range IR optical tracker. It could also easily track that man in the suit walking but it doesn't mean it would be tactically effective by itself or at long range. IR like that is great when you can slave it to something like a radar track. Otherwise it's like searching the skies looking through a soda straw.
Getting back from jeeps:
If any nation wants to get their nails into a stealth figher, it's all about seeing them. So the search, alarm, and thereby optics, IR and radar would have to be able to work together in a new way.
Sort of like a straw, eyeglass, ears and a radar clapped together.
Something not there, but IMHO possible.
Back to Jeeps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tccrBWtSda4
Enjoy. :devil
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We were trail running with some friends in the Lehighton/Jim Thrope (PA) area back in October. Muddy as hell too. Spent two hours cleaning it afterward.
Yep, I'm a member of the JK-forum. I'm also a member of MilitaryJeepers.com and several others. MilitaryJeepers is for active duty and veterans who own Jeeps of any kind. Nice group of users.
One thing I noticed on the JK-Forum is that there are so many Jeep owners who don't know the difference between their dipstick and a tire iron. Completely, utterly devoid of mechanical knowledge. Did you see the post where a guy thought he had termites in his fiberglass top?
Then you have the knuckleheads who figure the solution to all problems is to air down their tires. One unbelievable character insisted that airing down to 2 psi was ideal from driving on snow covered trails. 2 psi??!! He's got a 3,500 lb vehicle, and 2 psi is simply flat... Great way to completely destroy the tires. Some of those guys make Forrest Gump look like a Harvard graduate. "Stupid is as stupid does, sir"
Reminds me of a guy here on Long Island. He spent over 6 grand modding the hell out of his '07 Unlimited. 4" Teraflex lift, 37" Procomps on 16" wheels and more armor than a Bradley Fighting Vehicle. Two of us had to pull him out of the sand when he buried it up to the frame rails... Those Procomps moved more sand than a backhoe... Problem was, he didn't go forward; he went straight down. He had never driven on the beach before. I have doubts he had ever been off road prior to that day. We coached him on beach driving and had him turn traction control back on as he couldn't seem to avoid spinning the wheels like mad. He managed not to get buried again..
I looked at your photos and those from the Virginia group. Nice bunch of common-sense Jeepers enjoying themselves. Is that nice looking Red X yours? Seeing that stock Yellow X S24 running with the Rubicons was interesting. Considering that they still had the Goodyear SR-A rubber, they did very well.
SR-As are much better than many guys with heavily modded Jeeps will readily admit. They are certainly better in snow than any M/T tire. Self cleaning lugs are not what you want. Nothing sticks better to snow than snow. M/Ts throw snow everywhere but don't bite. The SR-As load up with snow and bite well. That is why my BFGs are in the garage and the SR-As on the Jeep for the winter. Traction control isn't much help if there's no traction to control. ;)
Then again, a surprising number of JK drivers switch off the ESP and traction control when it snows. This, I believe, is due to really bad advice from other Jeep owners. ESP and traction control were incorporated precisely for those types of conditions.
That's why I tell people to be careful with what they read on Jeep forums. There's as much bad info as good. One TJ owner stated that Brake Lock Differentials were just a gimmick.. The fact that a JK X model will scale any obstacle a stock TJ Rubi can because of BLD would quiet this silliness, or so you would think. TJ and YJ owners simply don't understand... the JK is a completely different animal, more capable than the previous models and more capable than any other factory stock 4x4 you can buy. I've owned a moderately upgraded YJ and a heavily modded CJ-5. I can take my stock JK nearly anywhere I could drive either of those, and do so in far more comfort.
My regards,
Widewing
The Red JK is mine. Basic X with the only options A/C, Posi, 6-Speed and Half-Doors. It really is my wife and my camping-adventure beast and will go anywhere a Rubi can and that is what we use it for. It has had a break-upgrade-wheel more type life so far. I run a basic 1.75 lift, I do a good chunk of Mud so I ditched the SRA's for a set of new BFG's from a Rubi (Gave my sister in law my 17 SRA's for her unlimited since she only had the 16's). The Diff's are up-armored (I peeled them crawling boulders), I custom fabricated welded sliders from the basic R/R Tube steps (after driving one into the pinch seam of the quarter panel walking over a log). The back seat was tossed and the seats added with the Smitty Built MolleGear backs (with everything in them). I modded the tailgate to hold the compressor, some recovery gear, come along and tire repair kit. I cut and fabricated a hi-lift mount and stronger recovery points behind the stock rear bumper. Plus, fabricated a home made sway-bar disco (here I really hate Rubi owners in freezing temps when we wheel :lol). I almost hydro-locked it once so I also custom fabricated a water deflector over the airbox from roof sewer pipe vent flashing and foam. The water ingress to the stock airbox is being thrown by the belt up into the hood and across not, from the bottom as allot of people think!
In the summer we ditch the top and only run the bikini and rear duster cover. The BFG's are horrible in the snow if you have to drive on a road but, on the trail in snow at about 16psi not to bad. My only "squeak" if there was one is I wish I had the Rubi's 4.1 ratio T-Case for the reduction in Low when going down very steep inclines and that it had the 4.0 Liter Straight Six. As you know, 3.8 isn't too great in higher RPM torque. Although at Quadratec's open house sale last fall I picked up a scratch-dent Voliant axle back exhaust and it really helped on hills in 5th-6th gear. Otherwise, I have pulled lots of Rubi's out where I did not get stuck! Not having the D-44 in the front (plus the D-30 is open even though I ordered posi and expected both carriers to have it) is somewhat of a drag but, the BLD more than makes up for not having E-Lockers.
Oh and plus the additional off-road lighting since the JK has poor lights as you know.
It really is a great fun vehicle for us and if I didn't have Mustangs and some other vehicles I would probably get another one. The thing is about as sure footed and go anywhere as a Mountain goat.
In a nutshell you are right on the lack of Mechanical Knowledge for a good chunk of JK owners. But, to sum it up in one word UNLIMITED is what caused that. Granted I wheel with people that have super Unlimited's and are really knowledgeable (although I like to bust balls about School Buses when they have to 3 point turns that I scoot through or get turtled on sharp drops). But, the bulk of Unlimiteds are simply Mall-Crawlers so Junior can get his under-roo's at Wally-Mart in the snow and they can feel "outdoorsy".
At a JK fest last October, we had this "outdoorsy" guy in his Unlimited Sahara join us on a trail ride. After a simple few off-camber obstacles, the guy started almost crying about "rolling" over and "killing his kids". I was almost comical and we were only running an easy green. He made the entire group back-track out of the trails so he could go home (we wouldn't leave him alone).
When you get a chance check out the trails and tales section of JK forum on Sunday after we do this ride on Saturday. My wife (JnRstel) is the defacto photo-video nut that makes awesome videos and photos of all our rides.
Hope to see you out on the trails!
After swimming this:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c261/rstel/IMG_5981.jpg)
This simple mod keeps water out of your airbox
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c261/rstel/IMG_5998.jpg)
here is mine going through that simple obstacle where the guy started freaking out
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c261/rstel/_MG_3656.jpg)
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(again sorry for the Hijack)
This pic shows you the Hi-lift mount on the stock bumper and Tailgate setup
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_2Va8W_I0jHU/SRZ5OLRcyWI/AAAAAAAAJac/QlEqpfGqx5I/s640/IMG_5408.JPG)
The little JK is really like a mule!
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_ZyRRzv5_ezU/SRkPDsQYtdI/AAAAAAAAJwc/J41O40oJk6Y/s800/P1100264.JPG)
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_ZyRRzv5_ezU/SRkO4oLxOHI/AAAAAAAAJvA/M7QyU_y3Qh4/s800/P1100235.JPG)
And again, I would highly recommend that simple Airbox mod if you are going to swim it (or a snorkle)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_ZyRRzv5_ezU/SRkPLBZCtpI/AAAAAAAAJxc/sVnGlA4U-PA/s800/P1100290.JPG)