Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Gabriel on February 11, 2009, 10:31:14 AM
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Anyone know where these might be floating around on the internet?
Seem hard to track down,,,
edit - I should clarify, I mean in terms of airspeed charts, factory tests, etc
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Some of that stuff is still a state secret in Russia.
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Some of that stuff is still a state secret in Russia.
Which um, rather begs the question...whence comes the data for the game? Does HTC have an espionage branche? :noid
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From the days of Air Warrior, the Yak was very much poorer than in AH. Wonder where the LA-5/7 data comes from.
Anyway, cannot all be too much of a secret, since some of those are flyable on Western museum ground, - at least I have seen a Yak-3 in the air and heard comments about it. (Duxford)
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Some of that stuff is still a state secret in Russia.
How inconsiderate of them.
Maybe Oleg has a source in the archives somewhere - probably a good idea to check the IL2 forums,
re; the Yak 3Ms out there flying, as far as I know they use Allison V 1710s for their powerplants, so not much data from them being of use I think,
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Maybe Oleg has a source in the archives somewhere - probably a good idea to check the IL2 forums,
Maybe in his patriotic imagination.
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You can get "State Secret" information here (32Mb pdf, 114 pages)
http://rapidshare.com/files/197153284/Fighters_VVS_RKKA_1930-45.pdf.html
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at least I have seen a Yak-3 in the air and heard comments about it. (Duxford)
Trikky was foaming at the mouth when it went up, Needless to say, it is a fantastic (mass produced and fought) aircraft and needs to be added to AH :aok
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You can get "State Secret" information here (32Mb pdf, 114 pages)
http://rapidshare.com/files/197153284/Fighters_VVS_RKKA_1930-45.pdf.html
can anybody translate it?
some good comparisons with the 109 in the final pages
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You can get "State Secret" information here (32Mb pdf, 114 pages)
http://rapidshare.com/files/197153284/Fighters_VVS_RKKA_1930-45.pdf.html
Many thanks, :salute
can anybody translate it?
All of it :huh
If you specify which, I could do a very rough job having taken some Russian coursework, however I feel as though some of our East European friends would do better
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re; the Yak 3Ms out there flying, as far as I know they use Allison V 1710s for their powerplants, so not much data from them being of use I think,
The only one I've ever seen has a R-2800 bolted to the front, so again, probably not a great example, although we could argue whether or not it was an improvement :)
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The only one I've ever seen has a R-2800 bolted to the front, so again, probably not a great example, although we could argue whether or not it was an improvement :)
This is the -3M
(http://www.samolet.co.uk/jpegs/francizer_2.jpg)
There are some Yaks out there that are radials adapted from the -11 or -3us,,,,but I don't consider those 'real' :D , this is one with the R-2800 I think,
(http://www.warbirdaeropress.com/articles/CzechMate/Perestroika%20Pylon.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3117/2883430646_c128495408.jpg?v=0)
:salute
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The Yak-3U had the same engine as the La-7, though I think it was too late to see action in WWII.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-byLVcXd7eg
Fast bugger!
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can anybody translate it?
some good comparisons with the 109 in the final pages
Yes. Anything I can't handle SWMBO can (she's a native Russian speaker).
Don't hold your breath, though :)
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Even "official" documents are suspect when they come from a nation that rewrites history to show itself in a better light.
Many claims and specs from VVS aircraft have been exaggerated before, because they were either trying to save their skin or make other folks believe the Soviet Union was the greatest nation on Earth.
More than likely the German test of captured VVs planes or British/US comparisons will yield FAR better and more accurate statistics than what the VVS puts out, state secret or not.
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That's a rather bold claim Krusty. Got something to back it up with?
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That's a rather bold claim Krusty. Got something to back it up with?
There is the whole nuclear-powered bomber thing. No, not a bomber carrying nuclear bombs, a Soviet buff supposedly powered by a nuclear reactor.
The Soviet Union went the way of bluff and bravado a lot, the U.S.A. seemed to go the opposite way, crazy lengths were/are used to hide certain things. "What you saw was just a weather balloon.". "Mr. Hughes is trying to vacuum manganese nodules off the seafloor. Trying to raise a sunken Russian sub? No way!" etc and so forth.
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Do you mean this? :)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/NB36H-2.jpg)
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You can get "State Secret" information here (32Mb pdf, 114 pages)
http://rapidshare.com/files/197153284/Fighters_VVS_RKKA_1930-45.pdf.html
If someone has this could you mail it to me? Rapidshare says it has been downloaded too many times.
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If someone has this could you mail it to me? Rapidshare says it has been downloaded too many times.
I uploaded it to another host (don't know about the download limits there)
http://www.wuala.com/-aper-/AH/Fighters_VVS_RKKA_1930-45.pdf
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Same with combat claims Krusty....perhaps.
I fear though that what you stated will be a little bit common with all the powers of WW2.
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http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/01-10.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/11-20.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/21-30.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/31-37.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/page01_10.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/tknotes.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/Rechlin.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/La5_manual.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/Valousek.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/Yak3.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/Curves_trans.zip
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http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/01-10.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/11-20.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/21-30.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/31-37.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/page01_10.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/tknotes.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/Rechlin.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/La5_manual.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/Valousek.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/Yak3.zip
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/Curves_trans.zip
The La-5 manual link seems to be borken. I'll get this unzipped and printed and added to my Red Star collection; I have a bunch of (Russian) references for the Yaks laying around here and there. At the moment I'm still in my Hog phase (I go from the P-38 to the F4U to anything Russian in cycles) but I will get back to this before too long.
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I uploaded it to another host (don't know about the download limits there)
http://www.wuala.com/-aper-/AH/Fighters_VVS_RKKA_1930-45.pdf
Thanks! Got it. Pity we lokely won't ever see some of the early war stuff in there; those would be fun rides!
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Tilt mistyped the La-5 link,
Try this:
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/vvs/La-5_manual.zip
Badboy
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Same with combat claims Krusty....perhaps.
I fear though that what you stated will be a little bit common with all the powers of WW2.
Russian and Soviet claims before, during, and after WW2 (from before the GPW and on into Korea) have been shown in most cases to be grossly over-claimed across-the-board, far more than any other country, Eastern or Western.
It's not a matter of "all countries did it" -- it's a matter of they did it more so than any other country because the entire system they had was corrupted from the top down to get results and make Stalin happy.
To Quote Dr. Evil:
"When I'm not happy, Mr. Stalinsworth isn't happy,
And when Mr. Stalinsworth's not happy, PEOPLE DIE!"
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Some of that stuff is still a state secret in Russia.
So, if America went to war with Russia, there'd be La dweebs HO'ing all our expensive fighters wouldn't there?
:rofl
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Thanks! Got it. Pity we lokely won't ever see some of the early war stuff in there; those would be fun rides!
I would think it would be logical to have an I-16 and/or I-153 to go along with the Brewster 239s.
:D
wrongway
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Please treat Krusty's blanket condemnation of Russian data due to propaganda with a "pinch of salt".
It is clear that claims re superiority of their Airforce to maintain moral were rampant as were any such claims by any airforces.
Where we have signed VVS Tsagi reports (see some of my links above) which show aircraft tests performed straight of the production line (Not specially prepared aircraft for such a test as in prototype testing) we can see the true figures. Some of these reports refer to the malfunctioning of components and offer the reverse of any glorification of the machine.
There was a a very strong motivation to give a full and proper internal assessment. During the initial comparison of Yak, LaGG and Mig prototypes an official falsified a report regarding one of the aircraft (i have not checked my files for the exact details but if challeneged will do so). When this was discovered Stalin had him executed. To falsify such a report was to risk your life!
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Besides, Sun Tzu states in the <Art of War>, "Know yourself and know your enemy, and one will never be imperiled in any battle".
The lies and falsifications are prepared for people outside the warmachine to read. They may try fool others, maybe even their superiors, but a military waging war never lies to itself. Even as Hitler's mental state soared towards Andromeda, his military specialists knew exactly what their odds were, and what was happening to them. There is always a disparity in perception between the at-the-scene specialists, and the bureaucrats above them. Nothing was different with the Soviets, nor any other WW2 faction as for that matter. And where the experts are, there is always data to be recovered. Some may hold the entire deal, others may hold crucial bits and pieces to add up, but there is always a starting point.
Therefore, belittling Soviet airpower or aircraft, like anything else, must also start from those pieces of truth - not from loose and irresponsible generalizations coming from frivolous impressions and superficial knowledge about a country which one has no real understanding of how its system works, and taken out of context in an ill-mannered way.
In otherwords,
"Unless you have some definitive proof of just how much the specs have been bluffed up, and have compelling info on how it really should be, stop the crappy generalizations and just shut up."
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don't know if this will help
but might be another good place to start!
http://www.wio.ru/tacftr/yak.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yak-3
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Isn't there any German data on captured Russian machines?
Just an idea.
For what it is worth though, German losses vs Russian combat claims are quite far apart, as well as Russian losses to the LW as late as 1944 are absolutely appalling.
Be it lack of top-notch performance, tactics or experience, the issue is certainly there.
I know from the German side that they were aware of the Kommisar system of demanding results, and therefore the results were "provided" although being false. There are two sides of this,- if you don't bring results (fake or not) you are dead. So, - you fake...
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Isn't there any German data on captured Russian machines?
Just an idea.
For what it is worth though, German losses vs Russian combat claims are quite far apart, as well as Russian losses to the LW as late as 1944 are absolutely appalling.
Be it lack of top-notch performance, tactics or experience, the issue is certainly there.
I know from the German side that they were aware of the Kommisar system of demanding results, and therefore the results were "provided" although being false. There are two sides of this,- if you don't bring results (fake or not) you are dead. So, - you fake...
Don't forget that Soviet pilots were, in many cases, chosen for political reliability over skill. Cause the zampolit too much trouble and you didn't fly anymore. Generate a negative differential pressure gradient in the right areas and the same commissar would give you command. Zapad i Vostok were more than directionally different.
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Makes you wonder about so many things.
Look at performance for instance. Our AH Russian fighters are very fast, especially at low altitude. And on the eastern front, in RL, the numbers in the air on the eastern front were quite high. Russian production numbers were very high, so in 1944 the air was thick of relatively modern red airforce fighters. Yet the loss ratio of the LW is 4 times higher on the western front, - they lost some odd 2000 aircraft on the eastern front.
Try a 190A out in AH being swamped with Lala's and Yaks, - you will not easily get away, say alone get kills. So, IMHO something is wrong, either the Russian tactics and training were really that bad that late (well, we know they were not the BEST, but...), or their aircraft were not up to the performance we see. Since the LW used hit & run whenever they could, the RUN comes into the question....try outrunning a low-alt gaggle of La-7's,,,,
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At Barbarosa, pilots were so un-trained they didn't know how to fly anything other than formation. German pilots were actually disgusted that bombers kept flying straight and level as the Germans made pass after pass, killing bomber after bomber, until all of them were dead.
They were the absolute worst air force in the world, skill wise.
A select few, out of TENS OF THOUSANDS, of pilots had some skill, but getting that training out to any other pilots, let alone an entire structured training system from the top down, didn't really happen until the war was essentially over.
That's one reason why the Finns killed so many Ruskies with Brewsters. When the enemy doesn't do anything back, it's easy to get kills.
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Well,the LW K/D surely supports this.....
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So, IMHO something is wrong, either the Russian tactics and training were really that bad that late (well, we know they were not the BEST, but...), or their aircraft were not up to the performance we see. Since the LW used hit & run whenever they could, the RUN comes into the question....try outrunning a low-alt gaggle of La-7's,,,,
Several factors here. firstly planes like the La5F and the Yak1,Yak7 & Yak9D varients were basically inferior to the Luftwaffe contempories. With the La5Fn the VVS drew level under some combat conditions but were generally inferior below 15K. With the Yak3 and the La7 emerging in mid/late 44 the VVS started to have some ac that were superior (again under the right conditions). AH Yak 9U did not see action until late in 44 and its VK 107 was plagued with problems.its actually not that representative of late war Yaks compared to the VK105PF Yak3.
However in 44 the VVS could put up massive numbers superiority and they dominated the skies where ever they wished to fill them. Where they wished to fill them was in low to mid altitude sorties escorting (or actually participating in) attack strikes in the battle field or anti logistic strikes immediately behind enemy lines.
This still permitted the few LW ac still flying FW190 A8's and 109 G6's (G10/14's and K4's were very rare on the Eastern Front) the ability to sweep higher up in intercept roles which allowed hit and run tactics. Comparing losses in this environment would make the LW ratio look rather good even though it is no description of the actual air superiority of the time.
Very few use hit and run in this way in AH...............
LW air power (Eastern FRont) in terms of logistic attrition (via attack) was almost lost totally by late 44. The FW190 F8 could be run down easily by the La7 (La7's primary role was that of an interceptor) and even the La5FN given initial altitude advantage. Plus if caught climbing from a strike the LW attack ac were very vulnerable.
La7's however never held more than 15% of the total fighter numbers of the VVS and were somewhat less prevalent during 44 % wise. The air was not thick with the latest superior VVS fighters it was thick with 43/early44 production varients (plus P39's). By August 44 two regiments were equiped with La7's and (some several) with Yak3's the bulk of the air army (figher) still flew La5F's/FN's, Yak 9D's,M's,T's and P39's.
Interestingly whilst an La7 will catch any 109G2/6 on the ground or in level flight below higher altitudes the 109G4/6 could out dive an La7 once the top (level) speed of the La7 was over come...(see above test in the links I provided)
Training is interesting. By Mid 43 VVS training was in fact very proficient however the experience of LW combat fighter pilots in 43 was considerable. These (LW) guys were punching way above their weight even given only now broadly supperior aircraft and particularly considering the turning tide of actual numbers ratios due to the massive production rates of LaGG, Yak and the new Lavochkin aircraft from behind the Urals. By 44 however the rate of influx of properly trained LW pilots was waining plus attrition of the "old hands" was taking effect.
VVS training was continuing apace and by 44 it was probably amongst the best in the world it did not end once a pilot left the training acedemies. "Classes" continued in the field with ACM (group and singular) and other essential skills refreshed and updated by planned training sessions between sorties. VVS pilots were continually trained and kept alert to every new skill required or combat scenario to be over come.
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The air being thick with P39's rather than lala's be it 5 or 7 as well as Yaks, be it 3 or 9, - the LW's KD was still quite insane.
Anyway, the speed numbers you refer to, - are they from AH, or can you fill in the post with actual test numbers?
Given the numeric advantage of the VVS as well as the battles being fought in their best altitude bands, and normally not that far from home bases, - the LW is suffering 4 to 1 on the western front vs the eastern front in 1944, and with the more numbers of experts as well as the top performers devoted to the west.
What I am saying is basically that the VVS should have done much better, if everything was okay. So where was the flaw? My bet is that the bulk of the aircraft were not up to speed and performance, the bulk of pilots were not up to the training etc, and the tactics and commands were not up to scratch.
The superiority was won, or "won" by sheer numbers.
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suffering 4 to 1 on the western front vs the eastern front in 1944, and with the more numbers of experts as well as the top performers devoted to the west.
I am not sure we can derive much by comparing the differing fronts........in the West the LW was forced to intercept a bombing campaign targeting Germanies strategic manufacturing resources. It could not pick and choose its combat encounters. In the east the LW was so weak in numbers it had to pick its encounters. If you read up on Operation Bagration of June 44 you will note that the VVS had total air superiority over the areas from Kiev through Minsk and South to the Pripet.
Il2's and Pe 2's ripped the Whermacht logistic columns apart before they reached the front lines on countless occasions. The Lw had been bounced back to airfeilds in Prussia and Warsaw whilst the bases in Courland (green hearts etc) were at the extremes of range for effective patrol and far to far away for any responsive strike role.
In effect the VVS ignored the LW during the 44 offensive....... it was not a threat provided reasonable escort was given to attack aircraft. LW would hit and run and if a VVS fighter was lost in a mission that took out most of a tank column then that was a very minimal loss in the scheme of things and the LW would have done little more than eeked up a better KD ratio than it had the day before. In the mean time the Red army with the support of the strike regiments of the VVS had ripped through army Group Central in one of the greatest "walk over" victories (or greatest defeats) ever to take place on Planet earth.
An effective LW wouild have prevented that............... in fact during Bagration the LW was merely a minor irritant.
The point being that there was not an effective air war in the East in the summer of 44 because the VVS seriously owned the skies by shear mass of numbers as well as a growing proficiency in aircraft and pilots.
To make rabbit pie you fist catch your rabbit. To kill LW fighters over the Eastern front in the summer of 44 you had to find them and then you had to force them to engage. It was a waste of time to chase the LW remnants all over Belorus when there was Army Group central to decimate.
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Given the numeric advantage of the VVS as well as the battles being fought in their best altitude bands, and normally not that far from home bases, - the LW is suffering 4 to 1 on the western front vs the eastern front in 1944, and with the more numbers of experts as well as the top performers devoted to the west.
What I am saying is basically that the VVS should have done much better, if everything was okay. So where was the flaw? My bet is that the bulk of the aircraft were not up to speed and performance, the bulk of pilots were not up to the training etc, and the tactics and commands were not up to scratch.
The superiority was won, or "won" by sheer numbers.
By 1944, with the appointment of Major General Doolittle, the USAAF 8th AF had switched to a relayed escort doctrine which provided a wider range of escort coverage to the bomber stream, and also emphasized aggressive engagements to the purpose of specifically luring out enemy fighters and destroying them. Prior to this switch, Operation Pont Blank (which put German fighter industries at the top of its target list) was on the verge of collapse, with 8th AF monthly attrition rates for bomber crews crawling upto 30%, while German pilot losses were less than half of that.
This tactical change in the 8th AF almost immediately produced noticeable results which sounded alarm for the OKL. With each passing moment fighter/pilot losses steadily went up, while interception rates against ever increasing numbers of Allied bomber streams steadily went down. Both parties realized 1944 would be a crucial moment which would decide whether Allied air power would dominate, or the LW would emerge victorious in its defense over the skies of the Third Reich. This meant the highest priority for the LW would shift to the Western Front, with its fighter strength allocated to a grim task to stop Allied bombers at all costs.
In comparison, while the VVS also employed some range of bombing tactics against German forces in the East, the highlight of the battle was always at the ground level where (unlike the Western Front) the Heer was already fighting the Red Army, which by now had fully shifted to the offensive after the decisive victories won at Kursk. Therefore, to an extent, it may be said the 'traditional' role of primary importance for the VVS always remained at the CAS level.
With more and more squadrons being relocated to the Western Front, the remaining LW in the East were pitted against superior numbers of enemies which by now, were starting to be equipped with fighters that performed either as well as, or superior to, their own. The only saving grace was that due to the reasons mentioned above, VVS fighters typically operated at a limited altitude range with priorities that tied them at those altitudes. This meant that LW fighters, which still held considerable numbers of experten and elite squadrons, had a chance to utilize some of their relative advantages by limiting their own engagement altitudes to higher than typical VVS zone of control. One such example would be the JG52, which both Erich Hartmann and Gerhard Barkhorn (the #1 and #2 highest-scoring pilots of the LW, as well as the entire WW2 AND the history of aerial warfare) was a part of, as well as Gunther Rall(transfered to JG11 in April, '44) and many other famous pilots. Hartmann's strict discipline of engaging only in an advantage that is well secured, would be a prime example of the tactics LW fighter pilots had to resort to, in this particular situation.
However, while such limited engagements would allow LW fighters to successfully retain a positive attrition rate against the VVS, it also meant that its effectiveness and importance as an air force declined dramatically. (In Aces High terms, it would be somewhat like a situation where one or two veteran pilots at high altitudes would be very successful in achieving a good numbers of kills against hordes of enemies down low, but would be basically helpless in the bigger picture, since they have no way of stopping the horde itself)
While this might seem to suggest VVS "numbers superiority" as a key factor in their success against the LW, frontline experiences of LW pilots decidedly note that the VVS after 1943, was "nothing like what they've faced in 1941" - as most vividly portrayed by Alfred Grislawski, as he remembers his friend. In the operations which actually required the LW to take a full-stance against the VVS, the LW did suffer critical losses, just as they would in the Western Front. For example, in the Soviet Yassy-Kishnev Offensive of August, 1944, the LW suffered a disastrous 1 : 3.3 attrition rate which nearly decimated the Luftflotte 4 defending Romnia.
Surely. number advantage is indeed a key factor which the Soviets would wield without any shame or remorse to its maximum effect, but as with the Red Army, there is more to the VVS than just numbers. By the end of the war, the Red Army was the most powerful land army in the world, and the VVS was only second to the USAAF.
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Well, Galland once said that holding altitude advantage was not enough by itself, since if all the enemies were lower, one would have to get down there and mix it.
Anyway, been reading up on the USSR aircraft so there are odds and ends appearing. For instance, it was 1943 when the Lala stopped cutting out the engine during negative G's.
Both YAk-9 and La5 are in good production in 1943, making them the typical USSR fighters for the LW to meet after that time. Both Hartmann's and Rall's most common victim from spring/summer 1943 onwards is the La-5.
My books have preciously little data on performance. I do find a quote on a Yak 9D, top speed being 332 mph at SL, and 374 mph at 10K. (Engine is 1306 PS, weight 3117 kg), and that's about it. Various things are pointed out in the texts, such as the wingloading being rather high, and the aircraft generally being nimble. The Lala was apparently a pig on the ground though.
Anyway, I'll keep digging.