Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Fulmar on February 11, 2009, 09:54:36 PM
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So I'm not a hardcore car guy. I'll do my easy maintenance on my cars (battery change, head lights, etc). So my wife and I just moved to a larger city and I haven't really went out looking for a good mechanic yet. Prior to this, I always took mine and my wife's vehicles to our small town Ford dealer because I knew the guys personally and trusted their word and work.
So today, I just took it to Tires Plus because it was down the street. In the middle of the oil change they call me and tell me that since my wife's car ('05 Focus ZX4) is at 42,000 miles and that's its past the recommended 30,000 mile transmission flush. Which of course costs $140. I keep a pretty good tab on the owner's manual and I don't recall this being anywhere in the maintenance schedule. Since I didn't have the manual in front of me I told them no.
I get the car back and thumb through the maintenance guide and all I can find outside of checking the tranny fluid levels, is that the fluid needs to be changed at 60K for CVT's. Well obviously this isn't a CVT. Even on Tire Plus's own website on their "maintenance schedule" for my wife's car, no where does it say transmission flush (outside of checking the fluids).
A little Googling and I find conflicting stories and recommendations. Some say yes, some say 100K, some say flushes are bad and their high pressure etc etc and can do more harm than good, and so on.
So, suggestions, help, answers, insights?
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I don't do the tranny flush and haven't heard many good things coming from those that have. Keep up with the filter changes and make sure the levels are good, you're golden.
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I'll change mine if the tranny starts slipping or the dip stick smells burnt. I won't even think about it on the family cars until they get close to 100,000 miles or after a roads trip through the mountains or something like that. Pulling a boat or heavy loads, you may need to change it sooner. My pulling truck I use at the county fairs I usually change every 5th or 6th pull. It really just depends on how you treat you tranny. If you drive hammer down everywhere bangin' gears, yeah you may need to have it changed. Otherwise, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
PS you can do it yourself for 40 bucks. :aok
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Fluid and filter changes is all you need. Sounds like they were trying the up-sell thing. Flushes aren't good for the system. Check to see if your vehicle uses synthetic fluid for the tranny. If it does you can usually wait till 100,000 before you need a filter and fluid change.
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Well, you didn't specify whether the car has a manual trans,
or an automatic..
I've never heard of a manual trans being harmed by a fresh
dose of the correct trans oil.. No matter the mileage..
But an automatic trans is a different story entirely.. Auto
trans fluid, isn't just plain old oil.. It may look it, and feel it,
but it isn't.. It uses an oil base, but has friction modifiers
bonded with the oil at the molecular level.. This is neccesary
for the internal clutch packs for the different gears...
Often their "Flush fluid", which is a solvent, will wash so much
of the friction modifier out of the clutches that the trans will
start slipping in one or all of the gears.. Ooops!!! Then when
ya go back to the shop with the trans slipping.. They say
that "You waited too long for your trans service.." Now ya
need a rebuild... That is more common than you think!!!
Change the fluid and filter, you'll be just fine...
RC
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$140 is too much regardless.
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Buy the filter and correct Trans fluid. Filter may be a PITA to get too, but for less than $40, you can EASILY prolong the life of your Trans.
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What should I look for in the fluid to see if it needs to be changed. Like I said, the owner's manual doesn't have any recommendations for changing other than checking the fluid level. She's a good driver, no lead foot etc.
And yeah, when I heard $140 I giggled a bit. Either way, I think they lost a customer.
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the newest brand of trans fluid is ATF4 and the colour/smell isn't a reliable way of deciding whether a transmission service is necessary or not, it's all by mileage and feel now. If it starts slipping change it, without any aggressive driving 100,000 is probably fine. I never performed a transmission flush, all we ever did was drain the fluid from the pan, change the filter and inspect for any damage and put it back together with some new fluid. Transmission servicing can be a pain if you have to remove the gasket, the newer dodge trucks just bolt on the filter which is REALLY nice.
Our trans services were $79.99 I believe, but we also did it the old school way. They have recycling machines now that will suck out the old fluid and replace it.
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Unless you're having problems with the way it's shifting, I wouldn't mess with it. But if you must, you'll see black sludge or even metal shavings in bad cases, in the bottom of the pan. The fluid will smell burnt. Smelling the dip stick will tell you alot and save you the trouble of pulling the pan.
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There's almost always a little sludge and shaving in the pan due to the clutches engaging and disengaging. I actually can't remember any pan that I didn't need to clean off the magnet and pan. As Uptown said though, if it's not broke then don't mess with it. You can always call Ford and see what they recommend for intervals too.
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PS you can do it yourself for 40 bucks. :aok
no, actually, he can't.
read up on it before you stick your foot in your mouth. :aok
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So I'm not a hardcore car guy. I'll do my easy maintenance on my cars (battery change, head lights, etc). So my wife and I just moved to a larger city and I haven't really went out looking for a good mechanic yet. Prior to this, I always took mine and my wife's vehicles to our small town Ford dealer because I knew the guys personally and trusted their word and work.
So today, I just took it to Tires Plus because it was down the street. In the middle of the oil change they call me and tell me that since my wife's car ('05 Focus ZX4) is at 42,000 miles and that's its past the recommended 30,000 mile transmission flush. Which of course costs $140. I keep a pretty good tab on the owner's manual and I don't recall this being anywhere in the maintenance schedule. Since I didn't have the manual in front of me I told them no.
I get the car back and thumb through the maintenance guide and all I can find outside of checking the tranny fluid levels, is that the fluid needs to be changed at 60K for CVT's. Well obviously this isn't a CVT. Even on Tire Plus's own website on their "maintenance schedule" for my wife's car, no where does it say transmission flush (outside of checking the fluids).
A little Googling and I find conflicting stories and recommendations. Some say yes, some say 100K, some say flushes are bad and their high pressure etc etc and can do more harm than good, and so on.
So, suggestions, help, answers, insights?
first off, the difference between doing a flush, and doing a fluid and filter change......
to flush your tranny, it gets hooked up to a fluid exchanger. this is generally done by removing one of your trans fluid cooler lines, and connecting the exchanger in-line. start the engine....as the trans. attempts to circulate fluid throughout itself, it now pumps the old fluid into the exchanger, and the exchanger pumps the fresh fluid into the trans.
to change the fluid and filter, you drop the trans pan(carefully, unless you want a trans. fluid shower) remove the filter and replace it with a new one.
the average automatic transmission holds between 10 and 12 quarts of fluid.(including what's in the torque converter) when you flush the fluid, you change ALL of it. when you just do a filter change, you generally only change abut 4 or 5 quarts of it. the rest is still inside the workings of the tranny, and the torque converter.
if the car's in pretty good shape, i prefer to do the flush, especially if you're somewhat near the correct mileage. fords are still somewhat notorious for transmission problems.
i flushed the trans on my 95 taurus a few months ago, as the tranny was bucking, and generally acting weird...even after just dropping the pan. the trans worked beautifully.
i just checked in alldata(my information system.)
they call for changing the tranny fluid at 30k miles, if you're driving in severe driving conditions. they define that as towing, extended idling, or dusty conditions.
from alldata:
T : Towing a trailer or using a camper or car-top-carrier
Every 3,000 miles or 3 months Change engine oil and filter
Every 60,000 miles Change transfer case fluid
Change rear axle fluid if equipped with XY-75W90-FEHP
As required Change manual transmission fluid
As required Inspect and lubricate U-joints
I : Extensive idling and/or low-speed driving for long distances as in heavy commercial use such as delivery, taxi, patrol car.
Every 3,000 miles or 3 months Change engine oil and filter
Lube front lower control arm ball joints with zerk fittings, if equipped
Every 5,000 miles Inspect brake system
Check battery electrolyte level (Patrol Cars)
Every 15,000 miles Replace fuel filter
Every 30,000 miles Change automatic transmission fluid
Lubricate 4x2 wheel bearings, replace grease seals, and adjust bearings
Every 60,000 miles Replace spark plugs
Change transfer case fluid
As required Replace cabin air filter
D : Operating in dusty conditions such as unpaved or dusty roads
Every 3,000 miles or 3 months Change engine oil and filter
Every 15,000 miles Replace fuel filter
Every 30,000 miles Change automatic transmission fluid
Every 60,000 miles Change transfer case fluid
As required Replace engine air filter
As required Replace cabin air filter
O : Off-road operation
Every 30,000 miles Change automatic transmission fluid
Every 50,000 miles Change rear axle lubricant (F-450 and F-550 only)
Every 60,000 miles Change transfer case fluid
As required Replace cabin air filter
As required Inspect and lubricate U-joints
As required Inspect and lubricate steering linkage ball joints with zerk fittings
30000 MI or 48000 KM
Inspect
Ball Joint Notes
Brakes and Traction Control Notes
Inspect brake pads, shoes, rotors, drums, brake lines and hoses, and parking brake system for all operating Conditions.
Cooling System Notes
Inspect cooling system and hoses.
Exhaust System Notes
Heat Shield, Exhaust Notes
Steering and Suspension Notes
Inspect steering linkage and suspension.
Vehicle (Multi-Point Inspection) Notes
Recommended by Ford
Wheel Bearing Notes
Inspect wheel ends for endplay and noise.
Lubricate
Control Arm Notes
If using Special Operating Conditions I. Refer to Special Operating Conditions (Read This First). Lube front lower control arm and steering linkage ball joints with zerk fittings, if equipped.
Replace
Cabin Air Filter Notes
Replace cabin air filter, if equipped.
Engine Oil Notes
Replace engine oil for all Special Operating Conditions.
Fluid - A/T (Operating Conditions T, I, D and O only.) Notes
If using Special Operating Conditions T, I, D or O. Refer to Special Operating Conditions (Read This First). Replace automatic transmission fluid on all transmissions.
Fuel Filter Notes
Replace fuel filter. All Operating Conditions.
Oil Filter, Engine Notes
Replace oil filter under all operating conditions.
Rotate
Tires
the bold is the alldata 30k service for this vehicle.
bear in mind, if you have warranty left on this car, you NEED to keep up on all of the scheduled maintenance, or they'll void it.
if ya have any questions, feel free to pm me.
john
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What should I look for in the fluid to see if it needs to be changed. Like I said, the owner's manual doesn't have any recommendations for changing other than checking the fluid level. She's a good driver, no lead foot etc.
And yeah, when I heard $140 I giggled a bit. Either way, I think they lost a customer.
pull the dipstick, and look at the color.....if it's darkish red, or brown, then smell it. if it smells burnt, then it;s bad.
i forgot to mention in my other reply....stay away from tires plus, goodyears, etc........
napa care centers are pretty good....they're privatly owned shops, that work through napa, and this allows them to give you better warranty.
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the newest brand of trans fluid is ATF4 and the colour/smell isn't a reliable way of deciding whether a transmission service is necessary or not, it's all by mileage and feel now. If it starts slipping change it, without any aggressive driving 100,000 is probably fine. I never performed a transmission flush, all we ever did was drain the fluid from the pan, change the filter and inspect for any damage and put it back together with some new fluid. Transmission servicing can be a pain if you have to remove the gasket, the newer dodge trucks just bolt on the filter which is REALLY nice.
Our trans services were $79.99 I believe, but we also did it the old school way. They have recycling machines now that will suck out the old fluid and replace it.
ATF+4 is only used in chryslers....to the best of my knowledge.
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Manual transmissions use gear lube, not trans fluid. Trans fluid is more closely related to brake fluid than oil. It is, in fact, a modified version of hydrolic fluid.
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Qualify this statement. I've changed my trans fluid and filter many times. When they "flush" the system and suck the old fluid through the dipstick, they don't even change the filter. Dropping the pan, changing the filter and replacing the fluid is better and IS something you can do in your driveway and costs around $40.
my understanding of the statement i referenced, it was being said that he could flush his transmission himself for $40.00. that you can't do.
when we flush a transmission, we don't just suck the old stuff out through the dipstick either. that is only the same as dropping the pan, as it will only get the 4 or 5 quarts that're in the pan.
in my previous post i explained the difference. :aok
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my understanding of the statement i referenced, it was being said that he could flush his transmission himself for $40.00. that you can't do.
when we flush a transmission, we don't just suck the old stuff out through the dipstick either. that is only the same as dropping the pan, as it will only get the 4 or 5 quarts that're in the pan.
in my previous post i explained the difference. :aok
Yeah I see that now, you're right. I hadn't read your other post. I thought you were saying dropping the pan and changing the filter is something the common person shouldn't try. And the boneheads at jiffylube call sucking the old fluid through the dipstick a "flush". How's that for truth in advertising?
:aok
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no, actually, he can't.
read up on it before you stick your foot in your mouth. :aok
Excuse me? I've rebuilt many, many transmissions, transaxles and tranfer cases over the years and I know damned well what a case of tranny fluid, filter and gasket cost. As a matter of fact smart guy, I don't even buy the gaskets anymore as I make them myself. I don't need to "read up" on jack squat! :furious
And another thing, NAPA sucks!
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Excuse me? I've rebuilt many, many transmissions, transaxles and tranfer cases over the years and I know damned well what a case of tranny fluid, filter and gasket cost. As a matter of fact smart guy, I don't even buy the gaskets anymore as I make them myself. I don't need to "read up" on jack squat! :furious
And another thing, NAPA sucks!
explain to me, then, how the average joe is going to replace 12 quarts of transmission fluid in his driveway?
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I'm not talking about flushing a tranny. My line of thinking is if it's in bad enough shape that it needs flushing, you better being looking to replace or rebuild it.
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explain to me, then, how the average joe is going to replace 12 quarts of transmission fluid in his driveway?
ummmm, 2 drain pans, a set of ramps and some common sense?
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Yeah I see that now, you're right. I hadn't read your other post. I thought you were saying dropping the pan and changing the filter is something the common person shouldn't try. And the boneheads at jiffylube call sucking the old fluid through the dipstick a "flush". How's that for truth in advertising?
:aok
ya, well, jiffylube is another one i recommend avoiding like the plague.
when i used to tow, we averaged 2 or 3 cars a month that we towed out of the local jiffylube. funny thing, is that they all ran when they went in. :noid
as for just doing a fluid and filter change.......if the person doing it feels confidant, then there's no problem doing it. 9 out of 10, are super easy. there;s some that are somewhat hard......mazda protege is one.....you have to remove a support member to get 4 or 5 of the pan bolts, and there were some late 80's early 90's fords, that you had to unbolt shifter cable brackets.
back to the jiffylube thing.....THAT kind of poop is what makes us all look bad in this business......
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ummmm, 2 drain pans, a set of ramps and some common sense?
uumm....you're not gonna get all the fluid out unless the pump is running.
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I'm not talking about flushing a tranny. My line of thinking is if it's in bad enough shape that it needs flushing, you better being looking to replace or rebuild it.
nope.....95 ford taurus. draining the fluid didn't improve anything. flushing it did. it's been about 5k miles now, and she's working beautifully.
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ya, well, jiffylube is another one i recommend avoiding like the plague.
when i used to tow, we averaged 2 or 3 cars a month that we towed out of the local jiffylube. funny thing, is that they all ran when they went in. :noid
as for just doing a fluid and filter change.......if the person doing it feels confidant, then there's no problem doing it. 9 out of 10, are super easy. there;s some that are somewhat hard......mazda protege is one.....you have to remove a support member to get 4 or 5 of the pan bolts, and there were some late 80's early 90's fords, that you had to unbolt shifter cable brackets.
back to the jiffylube thing.....THAT kind of poop is what makes us all look bad in this business......
I could never understand why they don't put drain plugs in trans pans...
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I could never understand why they don't put drain plugs in trans pans...
some do. i think some toyotas have them. honda transmissions don't even use filters. you simply drain and fill them. i love them, because they;re easy to work on, and i don't have to charge my customers very much for doing the drain and fill on them.
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Thanks CAP1, but that maintenance schedule does not match what my owner's manual recommends and what I used to talk to the guys at the dealer for. I think I'm just going to call my old dealership and ask for their recommendation.
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Thanks CAP1, but that maintenance schedule does not match what my owner's manual recommends and what I used to talk to the guys at the dealer for. I think I'm just going to call my old dealership and ask for their recommendation.
probably your best bet. from experience, alldata says they get their information straight from the manufacturer.
hope a make out ok dude
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Adhere to the Owners Manual/Maintenance schedule..there IS a reason it's supplied with the Vehicle. :)
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So I talked with the guys there and they said they 'recommend' it at 30k, but most people under normal driving can go to about 50-60k.
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So I talked with the guys there and they said they 'recommend' it at 30k, but most people under normal driving can go to about 50-60k.
good advice.
how do you drive? are you a "lead foot"? do you drive in a lot of stop and go traffic? do you mount anything on the roof? like a carrier, bike racks, etc? live in a hilly area?
these all add to the stress that your tranny has to deal with. if you're going to do anythig with it, i'd only do the filter and a drain and fill(which i think others said too). just bear in mind, that doing it that way will leave about 6 or 7 quarts of the old fluid in the tranny.
i don't rebuild em,(probably about the only thing automotive i've never had the desire to do) but i do know how they work, and how to take care of them. (i've got much more experience than uptown probably thinks i do :aok)
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It's my wife's car and she's a good driver. Her commute is about 90% highway, flat southern Wisconsin, and no extra stress.
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Manual transmissions use gear lube, not trans fluid. Trans fluid is more closely related to brake fluid than oil. It is, in fact, a modified version of hydrolic fluid.
Not true most of the modern manual transmissions use ATF now. Even the transmision in my truck uses ATF.
Adhere to the Owners Manual/Maintenance schedule..there IS a reason it's supplied with the Vehicle. :)
Good advice.
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It's my wife's car and she's a good driver. Her commute is about 90% highway, flat southern Wisconsin, and no extra stress.
you should be fine then.
call your old dealer once more though, and verify with their service manager that your warranty will still be in force.
i wouldn't sell you a trans flush at that mileage, and those conditions, unless the fluid was black, and smelled VERY bad.
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Not true most of the modern manual transmissions use ATF now. Even the transmision in my truck uses ATF.
Good advice.
you're correct in this. ford has been using ATF in their borg warner transmissions since the early 80's.
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you're correct in this. ford has been using ATF in their borg warner transmissions since the early 80's.
I guess i'm completely out of my element here...
I used to know about these things..
I'm gonna bow out now..
:D
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I guess i'm completely out of my element here...
I used to know about these things..
I'm gonna bow out now..
:D
nah......ya learned something here, right?
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So I talked with the guys there and they said they 'recommend' it at 30k, but most people under normal driving can go to about 50-60k.
IIRC, you have a 4F27E transmission. You should be fine until at least 50-60k. But if your wife drives like that, I'd say the Ignition cylinder will break before your transmission. This is the most common problem with ANY Focus. Hell, I had a 2002 Explorer with 37,000 miles on it and the cylinder went, the Focus uses the same one. All of that to save $.05 a part.
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I had problems with my ignition cylinder on my 2000 Mercury Cougar. Wouldn't be surprised if it was the same part again since 70% of the Cougar was a Contour.
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you're correct in this. ford has been using ATF in their borg warner transmissions since the early 80's.
Not just the BW trans used by Ford, the ZF's used in both Ford and Chevy trucks, (if you can find a Chevy truck with a manual trans) as well as the MB G56 used in the Dodge trucks with the Cummins diesel. I'm sure there are others that I've missed but these are the ones I'm most familiar with.
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Deleted
You said it all already
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If you haven't changed auto trnny fluid by 60k+, dont. If you plane on keeping vehicle beyond 100k, change it now
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I drive a 2005 2500HD Chevy Silverado 4 door. Its not a work truck by any means and is mainly driven by my wife back and forth to work. Other than her full time job, she helps a local dealership process car deals and paperwork. I have the luxury of getting her employee discount on all my car maintence and in a recent discussion with the service manager says for trucks its a must, (flush and filter change) about every 30 to 40k, but for cars not so much.(we also have a GTO ) THis guy is not out to make money as the discount brings the cost down to where the dealership does not make much (if any) money. It sounds to me like they just want to make an extra $140.00, but ill be glad to give him a call tommorow and get his opinion for you.
EDIT: My apologies, i didnt see your post showing you found your answer