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General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: JB11 on February 12, 2009, 12:05:27 PM

Title: Puff Ack
Post by: JB11 on February 12, 2009, 12:05:27 PM
Dale,

What is up with the puff ack nailing me within the first three shots continually?  Could we please turn the accuracy down a hair?  I'm all for that if you hang around a little too long, like in earlier versions, you just deserve it.  But it has become ridiculous.  I am interested in others observations.  Is it too accurate?

 :salute 11
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: AWwrgwy on February 12, 2009, 05:31:57 PM
Random

Was it cv ack or strat ack?  Manned puffy is much worse than unmanned.  Also, seems fighters take the worse "random" hit than bombers.

I flew over a cv group yesterday in B-17s and didn't take any hits of any significance. I've also flown over strat puffy in a fighter and lost a wing.


wrongway
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: NoBaddy on February 12, 2009, 05:56:41 PM
Dale,

What is up with the puff ack nailing me within the first three shots continually?  Could we please turn the accuracy down a hair?  I'm all for that if you hang around a little too long, like in earlier versions, you just deserve it.  But it has become ridiculous.  I am interested in others observations.  Is it too accurate?

 :salute 11

It would appear that you have run afoul of the "kick NB's arse" code that Dale wrote years ago. It's why I don't do near that stuff!! :devil

Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: Spikes on February 12, 2009, 06:30:44 PM
Random

Was it cv ack or strat ack?  Manned puffy is much worse than unmanned.  Also, seems fighters take the worse "random" hit than bombers.

I flew over a cv group yesterday in B-17s and didn't take any hits of any significance. I've also flown over strat puffy in a fighter and lost a wing.


wrongway
It's the opposite of what it should be. It SHOULD be taking down bombers, and heavy jabos. But instead, it takes down light patrol and CAP fighters.
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: SectorNine50 on February 12, 2009, 11:40:54 PM
I think there is a statistic floating around that it took 40,000 shells to kill 1 bomber.  Puffy isn't technically supposed to accurate... it's kind of a "fill the sky and hope to hit things," spray and pray type of thing.  I really think that the 5" guns shouldn't be able to be manned, or distance icons should be removed... but that's just me, hitting furballing planes is far too easy.

Cool website I found looking this stuff:
http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/flak.htm

I'm still poking around trying to find the sources I got that accuracy ratio from.

Found it!  I was wrong, it was actually 4,000 per one bomber.  Very interesting read:
http://yarchive.net/mil/ww2_flak.html
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: grizz441 on February 13, 2009, 03:49:18 AM
I think the accuracy of the puffy is fine, I just think the range needs to be chopped at least in half.
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: Spikes on February 13, 2009, 06:21:29 AM
I think the accuracy of the puffy is fine, I just think the range needs to be chopped at least in half.
When you get shot down in a 262 flying CAP, whilst buffs are flying overhead going for the CV, and you are taking the puffy ack, you might rethink that.
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: Anaxogoras on February 13, 2009, 08:32:41 AM
I've never flown a bomber and been shot down by automated puffy ack.  I've never seen a bomber shot down by automated puffy ack.

I've been shot down by automated puffy ack in a fighter many, many times.

That's what I have observed.
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: Lusche on February 13, 2009, 08:55:18 AM
I've never flown a bomber and been shot down by automated puffy ack. 

I have been. More then once.
I lost more fighters to puffy ack than bombers, but then I have had many, many more fighter than bomber sorties getting me into puffy ack. Also I guess some of the puffy ack "hits" that only damaged my buffs would have killed me had I've been in a fighter plane.
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: RipChord929 on February 13, 2009, 09:05:41 AM
Auto ack is irritating!!! But then again its supposed to be, isn't it!!!
Its really easy to dodge, thats what your stick is for...
Don't let the guns track you for too long, change your direction and
altitude.. When it tracks ya for too long, THEN it gets the kill shot..

IMO, its just fine as is..

RC
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: Lusche on February 13, 2009, 09:09:46 AM
IMO, its just fine as is..

Until you notice you just have been hit by puffy ack located at a factory on the other side of that friggin 20k mountain while flying at 10k yourself...  :P
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: druski85 on February 13, 2009, 09:16:33 AM
I think there is a statistic floating around that it took 40,000 shells to kill 1 bomber.  Puffy isn't technically supposed to accurate... it's kind of a "fill the sky and hope to hit things," spray and pray type of thing.  I really think that the 5" guns shouldn't be able to be manned, or distance icons should be removed... but that's just me, hitting furballing planes is far too easy.

They were also slightly higher than 10-15k the vast majority of the time in real life.  Accuracy against a target at 28k isn't gonna be real hot, no matter what it is.  

Still, I agree puffy (automated) ack is far too accurate against fighters in particular. +1
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: RipChord929 on February 13, 2009, 09:21:01 AM
Until you notice you just have been hit by puffy ack located at a factory on the other side of that friggin 20k mountain while flying at 10k yourself...  :P

LOL, yeah you have a point about it shooting thru hillsides, buildings, trees, etc....
But thats not and accuracy issue, its a game mechanics issue...

If I can't shoot thru it, IT shouldn't shoot thru it either...

RC
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: SEraider on February 13, 2009, 12:06:52 PM
I lost a perk plane (wing) because of soft ack last night.  I was at 17k and at least 10 kilomoters away when this happened.
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: dkff49 on February 13, 2009, 12:11:00 PM
First of all I have never witnessed the firing through hills, but that does not mean that it does not happen and if it indeed is then that should be fixed.

Now back to the accuracy prtion of our discussion.

I kow someone found that it took 4000 shells to down a plane. This was due to accuracy however that figure was prior to the proximity fuse which helped that number to be reduced to 40 according to this quote from below website (I had also heard this same thing other places as well)

Quote
Prior to the war’s outbreak, anti-aircraft fire was incredibly inaccurate:

Typical Rates of accuracy:

1940:       Without Fuze: Thousands of Rounds per airplane destroyed by ground-fire during day, tens of thousands of Rounds per airplane destroyed at night

1944:       With Fuze: 90% kill rates of V-1 Buzz Bombs with 10 rounds of fire,
similar impact on Japanese Kamakaze attacks on US Pacific Fleet

Nearly total elimination of Japanese Aircraft and ships in Pacific Theatre

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu_WytZVJNYYApRJXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzNHVkOTJiBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA0gyNDlfMTIx/SIG=12pbjaoe5/EXP=1234634546/**http%3a//www.enginesofinnovation.com/html/proximity_fuse_case_study.HTM (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu_WytZVJNYYApRJXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzNHVkOTJiBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA0gyNDlfMTIx/SIG=12pbjaoe5/EXP=1234634546/**http%3a//www.enginesofinnovation.com/html/proximity_fuse_case_study.HTM)

Now since we have the proximity fuses in the 5 in guns I would say that is probably what is in place for the auto puffy as well.


Now to the better accuracy verses fighters than bombers, well I haven't seen better accuracy one way or the other. I have been shot down faster in a fighter than a bomber but that I would attribute to the fact that it usually takes more to down a bomber than a fighter anyway (typically speaking). Whenever I fly through the puffy I always get hit sometimes it is minor and others more severe.

I really have no problem with the accuracy of the puffy. Now again if it is firing through hills then that is a problem.


This has been hashed out many times here on the BB's and I think that it is at a happy medium now. We have had it less accurate and we have had it more accurate and both of these made game play worse. IMHO
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: BnZs on February 13, 2009, 02:14:44 PM
I agree, auto-puffy is ridiculous. It consistently targets the highest plane around to the exclusion of all other targets. For instance, clean fighter at 12K, Ju-88s lower with torps headed for the CV, which does the AI puffy target? The clean fighter of course.

I think AI puffy should be made ord-seeking.
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: B4Buster on February 13, 2009, 02:34:38 PM
stop milk running
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: druski85 on February 13, 2009, 02:42:06 PM
stop milk running

It's not the milking that gets me buster.  It's the CV attacking the town I'm trying to protect.  (because the guy in the SB is incompetent)  Sure, you can keep yourself under 3k as much as possible...but against the horde of zekes and seafires, that can be tricky. 

Another annoying one is when strat targets are relatively close together.  You either fly through one or both fields of puffy ack, or have to go around for many miles.  Can't think of which map it was, but I experienced this a couple weeks ago on one of the island maps.  Couldn't come in from a different angle either, due to the airfield layout.  Worse yet, if you do go around the perimeter of puffy ack, in many cases fights wander about the map...which can put you right back into it.

Both issues could be eliminated by limiting puffy ack range, but accuracy I would also take. 
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: BnZs on February 13, 2009, 03:02:17 PM
stop milk running

Auto puffy does not seem to trouble milk-runners or guys trying to destroy the CV all that much. Like I say, it seems to target the highest fighter in range, even if that plane is a clean fighter doing maneuvers, to the exclusion of say a lower, closer set of buffs flying straight in on their run.
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: JB11 on February 13, 2009, 03:08:47 PM
stop milk running
I guess this is what finally got under my skin.  Let me just say, it had nothing to do with milk running.  I was being extra patient in attacking 5 sets of Lanc's that were trying to flatten my airfield in a Dora.  Yes, I manage to down 9 before I head home due to low fuel.  I figured wth, I'll hotpad and get back up for the one more plane floating around in the sector to the west.  I noticed the dot on dar heading towards our airfield and head that direction.  It happens to be a set of 24's at approximately 16k.  I again take my time and be patient to set myself up for the attack.  I notice that he had reversed, lost his drones and was heading right at me.  Ok, no biggie.  This will obviously make it easier for me since fewer guns will be shooting back at me.  As he passes by and I reverse to engage......you guessed it!!  We're over his factory and TWO puffs into it say bye bye to the tail feathers.  I just found it very frustrating to put all the time and effort into having a very positive sortie, to only get it blown away without even having the chance to escape the stuff.

 :salute 11
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: branch37 on February 13, 2009, 03:22:36 PM
the only problem i have with the puffy ak (and its a major one) is the fact that it is almost impossible to destroy(or even get the ord off the plane) a CV with a heavy fighter but heavy bombers get through almost un touched.
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: whiteman on February 13, 2009, 03:39:14 PM
Strat puffy is easy to kill, once under 3k you can kill all the guns and thats the end of puffy. But rest assured if some Billy Badass of Aces High catches you you will be labeled a milker, ho noes!!!!!  :O
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: Motherland on February 13, 2009, 03:41:38 PM
Puffy ack is harmless unless you're doing something around the thing it's trying to defend beside attacking it.
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: whiteman on February 13, 2009, 03:45:41 PM
Maybe some of us have no luck cause even my own auto puffy ack has hit me while attacking buffs or incoming Jabos.
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: BnZs on February 13, 2009, 03:48:53 PM
Puffy ack is harmless unless you're doing something around the thing it's trying to defend beside attacking it.
:rofl :aok
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: NoBaddy on February 13, 2009, 05:31:27 PM
Puffy ack is harmless unless you're doing something around the thing it's trying to defend beside attacking it.

I have to agree with Bnz...this is one of the most funny (and inaccurate) posts I have read in ages.  :rofl

Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: Motherland on February 13, 2009, 05:34:12 PM
(and inaccurate)
Really? I can't recall a time I've been hit, let alone shot down, by auto-puffy ack while attacking a CV or strat. However... if I'm not attacking the strat, rather dogfighting around it or doing something else I tend to be hit all the time. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: BnZs on February 13, 2009, 05:44:01 PM
Nobaddy: In case the thumbs up sign didn't make it clear, I was agreeing wholeheartedly with Motherland. The stuff is semi-useless EXCEPT for annoying furballers.
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: Motherland on February 13, 2009, 06:05:08 PM
It's especially annoying in FSO when you're flying for half an hour, and as soon as you're 400 yards away from the first enemy you've seen all night...


*boom*
*blood on canopy*
*in tower*
'you have been killed'
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: NoBaddy on February 13, 2009, 07:30:26 PM
Really? I can't recall a time I've been hit, let alone shot down, by auto-puffy ack while attacking a CV or strat. However... if I'm not attacking the strat, rather dogfighting around it or doing something else I tend to be hit all the time. :rolleyes:

Not to be a bigger weenie than usual, the last time I asked HT about it....puffy was done using a randomizer. The ranges are too great (lag would be a major issue) for HT to program the puffy to with AI like the shorter range ack. Now, he may have recently changed it. But, in my 10 years of doing this.......it has never made damned bit of difference what you are doing. If you are in range, there is a random chance you will be hit.

Oh...btw...here is your  :rolleyes:...bakatcha :)

Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: Motherland on February 13, 2009, 07:34:49 PM
BTW, the rolly-eyes was at the way the ack works, not you.

I've read HTC's posts about it why it works the way it does... but it does not change my experience that most of the time that I'm hit by puffy ack, I'm in a fighter.
In case my post was read this way, I do not mean to say that I think that puffy ack intentionally targets furballers over any other target... but whatever process it uses, that's what it seems to end up hitting.

I don't know what the solution to this would be... if I were Hitech, puffy ack would simply not target fighters at all. But that's me, and I know Hitechs judgment is better than mine... but the puffy ack has got to be, in my experience, the most frustrating thing in the game.
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: Spikes on February 13, 2009, 08:47:04 PM
Just got whacked by CV puffy ack in a K4 in a 1v1 with a Seafire. Was a good fight too, please make puffy ack target BOMB ARMED PLANES!
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: NoBaddy on February 13, 2009, 08:48:11 PM
Motherland...

You might wanna call your shots when using emoticons. :)

Look, if we based it on my experience...the puffy ack has a decisive hardon for me at least 50% of the time I die shortly after entering its range.

My point is that neither of our experiences has anything to do with what has been coded.

A question. How would you justify not allowing the puffy to shoot at fighters? Would you then exempt bombers from some other form of virtual danger? What about GV's?

HT would probably say that there is no need for a solution because there is nothing wrong....if it's annoying you....it's doing it's job. :D


(btw, the smiley face is for you  :salute)

Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: Belial on February 17, 2009, 02:33:11 AM
I was flying a 262 for about 15 minutes, and seeing as i'm not that good in one i was thrilled to be rtb with 5 kills.  I get about halfway home and I pass over a fuel refinery at 12k, and boom next thing i know i hear a puffy explosion.  I was traveling around 600mph at 12k, how is that possible seems a bit to accurate to me.
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: kilz on February 17, 2009, 02:47:00 AM
perk the puff ack   :rofl i think it is way to deadly. you fly at 3k-15k puffy ack take you out
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: redwing7 on February 17, 2009, 08:49:37 AM
Until you notice you just have been hit by puffy ack located at a factory on the other side of that friggin 20k mountain while flying at 10k yourself...  :P

+1

I've been taken out in a light fighter at 12k barley in visual range of the cv, sometimes it's just ridicules
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: grizz441 on February 17, 2009, 06:08:32 PM
When you get shot down in a 262 flying CAP, whilst buffs are flying overhead going for the CV, and you are taking the puffy ack, you might rethink that.

The only thing that annoys me is when it starts firing at me and I can't get out of range in time.  I bet it's accuracy is less than 5%.
Title: Re: Puff Ack
Post by: Stang on February 17, 2009, 06:31:28 PM
Line of sight targeting (no shooting through mountains), actual shells firing and not just appearing and exploding around you, and targeting bombers in priority over fighters are things that some day should be done.  Also I don't think puffy should be able to shoot at you if enemy fighters are within a certain distance since, like in reality, they'd run the risk of hitting their own aircraft.