Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: fergie on February 14, 2009, 09:29:59 PM
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The right to flame someone online has typically been protected by the courts, but a Texas judge has decided enough is enough when it comes to 178 anonymous commenters on Topix.com. The site has less than a month to hand over identifying information about the Internet trolls.
By Jacqui Cheng | Last updated February 11, 2009 11:45
A Texas judge has ordered an online news site to unveil identifying details about 178 anonymous commenters on the site. The order came after a couple, Mark and Rhonda Lesher, sued the numerous anonymous commenters posting to Topix.com for making what they considered to be "perverted, sick, vile, inhumane accusations" about them.
The Leshers were originally thrust into the Texas spotlight in 2008 after being accused of sexually assaulting an unidentified former client of Mark Lesher. That's when thousands of comments began piling up on the community news aggregator Topix to discuss the sexual assault charges. As with most things on the Internet, many Topix users felt free to let loose with nasty comments about the Leshers.
The Leshers were found not guilty of the charges after a criminal trial. That, however, wasn't the end of the 70-some individual threads posted to Topix about them. "It just... basically made us both feel like common criminals," the Leshers told the Dallas Morning News (via TechDirt). "It's like someone had basically raped us of our reputation and our standing in the community over and over and over again."
That's when the Leshers chose to sue a number of Topix's anonymous commenters (but, interestingly, not Topix itself). The law firm representing the couple, Connor & Demond PLLC in Austin, told Computerworld that the lawsuit was limited specifically to the posters whose statements were considered defamatory under Texas law.
The complaint filed by the Leshers details many of the comments made by the anonymous defendants. Some are certainly lower blows than others—insinuating that Mark drugs women and that Rhonda is the "Herpies Queen," and that the couple may have AIDS, among other things—but not all of the comments are as bad. Some merely accuse the Leshers of being liars, and others even say to wait for confirmation of some of the accusations.
Regardless of what we think of the comments, however, a Tarrant County judge clearly felt that they were libelous enough to order Topix to cough up personal information on the anonymous posters. The problem is that this order seems to ignore a number of previous rulings protecting the anonymity of Internet commenters, no matter how trollish.
In 2005, the Delaware Supreme Court ruled that an anonymous blogger could remain anonymous after being sued by a local councilman and his wife. The blog in question had questioned the councilman's sexual proclivities, among other things, which the couple considered defamatory. A lower court granted the request to identify the blogger, but the Daleware Supreme Court overturned the decision. Then, in January of 2008, two female law students who were the target of vicious online attacks admitted that they had been unsuccessful in digging up personal information about a handful of anonymous posters, and had so far hit a dead end when it came to getting a court order.
One month later, a California appeals court reversed a previous decision that would have allowed Lisa Krinsky, COO of a Florida-based drug service company, to subpoena 10 anonymous Yahoo message board posters' real names. The court said that the commenters were allowed to exercise their First Amendment rights and speak their minds, even though some of the comments were quite scathing and potentially libelous.
Topix, for its part, appears to be doing its best to ensure that it only hands over exactly what is required, and not a bit more. Topix CEO Chris Tolles told Computerworld that the company takes privacy very seriously, and that the company would not "simply hand over all of our records" without reviewing the subpoena in detail. "We prefer to make sure requests are clear and specific and not overly broad," he said. According to the order, Topix has until March 6 to give up the information.
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interesting
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Anonymous bile.
The deplorable case of Lori Drew, who created a fictitious MySpace account and taunted a neighboring teenager into suicide, is only one of the more notorious pile-ups on the information superhighway. Every day there are thousands, if not millions, of fender-benders and road-rage incidents in cyberspace as well.
A contributing factor in both real-world road rage and the seething cauldron of bile on the Internet? Anonymity.
Psychologists say a driver's sense of being isolated and secure inside his or her rolling tank contributes to the rancor. It seems plausible: Who has heard of "sidewalk rage"? By the same token, the anonymity and remoteness in cyberspace seem to encourge people to go over to the dark side -- and unload buckets of vitriol at the slightest provocation, real or imagined. Flamers, fraggers, and snipers camp out in chat rooms and on message boards and blast away with the impunity of hiding behind a nom de guerre. (And, yes, editorials are unsigned -- because they represent the view of a newspaper as an institution. But the masthead at the bottom of this page names those responsible for the content.)
Plenty of poo-flingers are willing to sign their names to their screeds, of course -- from Ann Coulter on the right to Ted Rall on the left. But anonymity encourages others who might tone down the rhetoric a notch to dial it up instead.
Anonymous political discourse has a romantic history in the U.S., where the Federalist's authors wrote under pseudonyms. Anonymity has its place and its utility. But let's be frank: Precious little of the ranting in cyberspace rises to the level of political philosophy. Ninety-nine percent is pure emotional venting. It would be commendable if more Web site operators encouraged accountability on their pages. As the Drew case reminds us, the lack of accountability is a cancer -- with potentially fatal results.
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There's a putz who keeping spamming topix with crap about/to/from me, so I can see how aggravating those postings on topix can be. It gets old instantly.
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Who has heard of "sidewalk rage"?
Me - I ankle tapped a skate boarder once, sent him flying, lil ratbag tried to cut across me as he jump on his board.
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People can be held liable is libel. I can't see anything controversial about this at all. The posters defamed someone and it doesn't matter if it occurs in a newspaper, magazine or a web page. They are not trolls and flamers, they are accused of committing libel.
By the way, do you have an opinion about this, fergie? Your first post is a copy & paste with no opinion, and the second post is a copy and paste from a newspaper in Virginia. You added no original content in either post.
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People can be held liable is libel. I can't see anything controversial about this at all. The posters defamed someone and it doesn't matter if it occurs in a newspaper, magazine or a web page. They are not trolls and flamers, they are accused of committing libel.
By the way, do you have an opinion about this, fergie? Your first post is a copy & paste with no opinion, and the second post is a copy and paste from a newspaper in Virginia. You added no original content in either post.
Had you analeyezed it more closely, you would have seen my original commentary.
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anonymity can be a bad thing!
but then again,
do you want everyone here to know your name?
:noid :noid :noid :noid :noid
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There's a putz who keeping spamming topix with crap about/to/from me, so I can see how aggravating those postings on topix can be. It gets old instantly.
From your username, I assume you are in Texas. This Judge is in Tarrant County. Maybe he or she could help.
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From your username, I assume you are in Texas. This Judge is in Tarrant County. Maybe he or she could help.
BAH! if TXMOM REALLY wants this putz to stop all she has to do is ask on this board, give a lil info and i'm sure one of us would take up the cause to bring hate and discontent to this pathetic individual. (all this she knows im sure) That being said mom is classier than most of us andd above such petty things.....right? :huh
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on the topic of the flammers, this case will ultimately go nowhere. I know one of the people that posted on this topic on the board in question. His post was one of the vile ones but even if it was they would be able to determine who he really is. For one when he registered he didnt use his real name, he used a free email acct <like i do for such things> and his laptop , like mine is constantly changing ip address, not to mention certain security measures that also helps protect ones identity. I know not EVERYONE can say the same thing, but, its not always so easy to drill down to get someone's real name. There are alot of factors involved AND its also dependent on the posters registering with their real name and email addy. I'm not saying it cant be done, but i bet they cant get all 178 names. I know for sure there is one they can't get but, i doubt his post was liable
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Can savvy board mods get through the DHCP addy get get to the MAC address?
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Can savvy board mods get through the DHCP addy get get to the MAC address?
depends. on a internetwork with say cisco routers/switches then yes. On the internet going thru several hops and different manufacturers equipment plus not knowing what software the enduser might be using to block such things, then no not without some sniffer type software running WHILE your online. like i said its not impossible to get most of em but i doubt they are going to get all of them.
for instance right now my ip address is 70.196.207.248. ill relog and it will be something else since im using wireless sitting in my work van....obviously NOT working lol
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and now its totally different...well its still a class A network address but this isnt a lesson in subnetting....thank COD!!!
Regardless IIRC you can only get the MAC addy of the last piece of equipment in the hop count. even if you could get a MAc address, then what? its not like your pc MAC addy tells em your physical address like 1234 XYZ st somewhere, USA. (IF all the posters are even in the US).
nope ya gotta get there ip addy, then find out their ISP THEN compel the ISP to give up that persons name and physical addy.
This will go nowhere. since the judges order was for topix (just topix) to give the name of the posters then i doubt anyone will be prosecuted. I think this is the ONLY board i registered with my real name (still used a free gmail acct tho) and thats only because i trust skuzzy and Hitechs integrity...plus i know where they work which is close by :devil.
They would have to spend alot more cash and time to get ALL 178 peoples info from their respective ISP's and that could be alot of different ISP's. AND those ISP's will fight the order, i guarantee you of that!
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My computer guy tells me that the government can get any MAC address and it never changes. The Judge in Texas is part of the government. If they want it they will get it. Ask the guy in Tennessee who was indicted for hacking Sarah Palin's email account.
Besides, you just revealed your location... twice!
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My computer guy tells me that the government can get any MAC address and it never changes.
It takes a few mouseclicks on your network adaptor to get to the field where you can override your MAC-address with whatever you want.
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My computer guy tells me that the government can get any MAC address and it never changes. The Judge in Texas is part of the government. If they want it they will get it. Ask the guy in Tennessee who was indicted for hacking Sarah Palin's email account.
Besides, you just revealed your location... twice!
First, I didn't say it couldnt be done, but if you read the arcitcle its a court order and very specific, from a message board its going to be very difficult
2nd as to my location...LOL i'm mobile so all you know is somewhere in Texas.
i dont claim to know everything, but i work in the telecommunications field and im taking CCNA and some other networking and security courses.
true your MAC address never changes and true the GOVT. can get it. however whats that give you? .....not much. I odnt know how much your "computer" guy knows but he aught to know that having a MAC address dont give ya much. especially in todays age of firewalls, ant-hacking software and software to allow anonymous surfing.
All this is moot really. The topic was about the company Topix being able to garner the real names of some anonymous posters. They are not a ISP so they dont have info on whos ip address is who's. if the ISP's aren't court ordered then they aren't gonna give up their paying subscribers.
As I posted above with one of my IP address, do a search, your not gonna get more than the state, city I was in at that time since I was using wireless to connect and it changes everytime I relog or switch towers. I haven't seen the scope of the judges order but the only info topix wil be able to supply is whatever registration info people filled out <if any> when they signed up to use the public message board.
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I think this is the ONLY board i registered with my real name (still used a free gmail acct tho) and thats only because i trust skuzzy and Hitechs integrity...plus i know where they work which is close by :devil.
I didn't know where you were until you just let everyone know, and the "lil info" you posted above gets us a lot closer than "somewhere in Texas." But if you want privacy, then why use the internet at all?
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I didn't know where you were until you just let everyone know, and the "lil info" you posted above gets us a lot closer than "somewhere in Texas." But if you want privacy, then why use the internet at all?
Hiya Pat!
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From your username, I assume you are in Texas. This Judge is in Tarrant County. Maybe he or she could help.
Help is not necessary. Usually in Texas we just take care of it ourselves.
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I didn't know where you were until you just let everyone know, and the "lil info" you posted above gets us a lot closer than "somewhere in Texas." But if you want privacy, then why use the internet at all?
Hiya Pat!
And now we know your first name. It is impossible to remain anonymous on the information highway.
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Help is not necessary. Usually in Texas we just take care of it ourselves.
I'm not in Texas, but if there is anything I can do...
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Help is not necessary. Usually in Texas we just take care of it ourselves.
:rock :rock :rock
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And now we know your first name. It is impossible to remain anonymous on the information highway.
LOL that isn't my first name. dddand honestly from what i posted you really don't know anything.
If you think you do then please by all means post what ya think. the internet and networking isn't as transparent as you think.
Skuzzy could probably splain this better, im still in my CCNA class (almost done tho) but ya gotta keep in mind all the software/hardware in use that helps keep your anonymity from malicious people. True law enforcement and the govt can get your info if your using basic stuff but, there are still ways to "cloak" yourself even from them. dont believe everything you see on tv ....or even hear about on da intardnet. Do some research and find out for yourself
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LOL that isn't my first name. dddand honestly from what i posted you really don't know anything.
If you think you do then please by all means post what ya think. the internet and networking isn't as transparent as you think.
FNFT= Fiber Network Field Technician for Verizon.
I install Fios
I'm also a student working on getting my CCNA. The master plan is to continue on to get my CCNP then hopefully my CCSP.
hopefully I will be ready to test sometime in Feb. Then hopefully I can move into a IT security position here at Verizon.
cheers,
Kevin
That took two minutes.
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LOL that isn't my first name. dddand honestly from what i posted you really don't know anything.
If you think you do then please by all means post what ya think. the internet and networking isn't as transparent as you think.
Skuzzy could probably splain this better, im still in my CCNA class (almost done tho) but ya gotta keep in mind all the software/hardware in use that helps keep your anonymity from malicious people. True law enforcement and the govt can get your info if your using basic stuff but, there are still ways to "cloak" yourself even from them. dont believe everything you see on tv ....or even hear about on da intardnet. Do some research and find out for yourself
Wouldn't he have to use the intardnet to get the research?
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That took two minutes.
all you got is something that i posted here back in january. Thats info that i voluntarily put on this board, Thats not info garnered by searching thru the network. Not much to go on really.
But, we have gotten way off topic.
The original issue is wether or not the co. topix will be able to get all 178 names that is in the court order. I dont think they will get all of them. They will get some but not all. The whole thing is just a witch hunt IMNSHO. The guy got his feelings hurt because people posted some mean things about him and now he wants to get some money out of it
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My computer guy tells me that the government can get any MAC address and it never changes.
Your computer guy is an idiot.
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Your computer guy is an idiot.
well i was trying to be nice maybe it was just a mis-communication. seems to happen alot nowadays
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Hiya Pat!
And now we know your first name. It is impossible to remain anonymous on the information highway.
My name's Pat?
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just for giggles i went over to the topix website. you dont even have to register there.
to post a comment you just type whatever cool intardnet name ya want then post away. lol goodl uck getting all those names :noid
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This is the original thread http://www.topix.com/forum/city/clarksville-tx/T0SFJGJH99COJ51K6
The order is for IP addresses http://theparisnews.com/story.lasso?ewcd=8d14fe15da0c4e65
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from the 2nd website
They (Topix officials) seem to be cooperating,” Lesher said. “Once we get the IPs, then I suppose the forensics with the law firm can proceed with the case against the bloggers. There are a few hurdles to go through, and we have been told this is the first such case being pursued against bloggers who have targeted individuals.”
Alot of people are OR should be watching this closely, for political and legal reasons. (nuf said on that here due to rulz)
as for the tech side, they aint kidding about the hurdles :lol once they get the IP address then they will have to find out what ISP, if it was mobile like wireless, if it was from a bussiness or school. Lots and lots of hurdles. least its not at taxpayers expense.
I still think this is a monumental waste of time as far as a conviction is concerned or even a judgement.
now if there is a hidden agenda for setting a precedent and this is just the means to that end.......well anything else i have to say on that would get this thread locked and my spanked by skuzzy :devil
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ok, so where are the law students?
Im somewhat familiar with the some laws- from personal interest readings on the subject, but am by no means a lawyer or paralegal (the ones who do the real work).
The question here is, I know lawyers will cite instances of past court precedings/rulings in order to strengthen their case are argue why they CAN do something or why something CANT be done... The question is, can they use the rulings/judgements from lawsuits to their advantage, or only from criminal cases?
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This is the original thread http://www.topix.com/forum/city/clarksville-tx/T0SFJGJH99COJ51K6
The order is for IP addresses http://theparisnews.com/story.lasso?ewcd=8d14fe15da0c4e65
But getting an IP-address doesn't prove who wrote it ?
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on the topic of the flammers, this case will ultimately go nowhere. I know one of the people that posted on this topic on the board in question. His post was one of the vile ones but even if it was they would be able to determine who he really is. For one when he registered he didnt use his real name, he used a free email acct <like i do for such things> and his laptop , like mine is constantly changing ip address, not to mention certain security measures that also helps protect ones identity. I know not EVERYONE can say the same thing, but, its not always so easy to drill down to get someone's real name. There are alot of factors involved AND its also dependent on the posters registering with their real name and email addy. I'm not saying it cant be done, but i bet they cant get all 178 names. I know for sure there is one they can't get but, i doubt his post was liable
Wanna make a bet on that?
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But getting an IP-address doesn't prove who wrote it ?
It can prove which machine it came from,...hence ISP records. Same way they catch child porn morons. Don't think you can't ever be found out,.. all it takes is someone to look.
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It can prove which machine it came from,...hence ISP records. Don't think you can't ever be found out,.. all it takes is someone to look.
Well a machine can be used by several ppl. They can not all be guilty. If all you have is a IP you will have a hard time to prove who it was that wrote the "insults".
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Well a machine can be used by several ppl. They can not all be guilty. If all you have is a IP you will have a hard time to prove who it was that wrote the "insults".
Or if the IP is NAT'd (which is very common), or if there was a proxy server used...
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See Rule #6
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Well a machine can be used by several ppl. They can not all be guilty. If all you have is a IP you will have a hard time to prove who it was that wrote the "insults".
Not as hard as you may think. All depends on how deep they want to look. Would they look that deep for this ? <shrug>
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Wanna make a bet on that?
on what part?
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Not as hard as you may think. All depends on how deep they want to look. Would they look that deep for this ? <shrug>
Err yes it is. If it's behind a NAT device they might pick up a browser type used and thats about it (and even that can be faked). Most people don't keep router logs at that level so then it comes down too pure heresay. As for a machine being used by several people, depends how it is used, if different logins are used and browser history/event logs are kept long enough, maybe, but without those once again it's guesswork.