Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: juzz on January 10, 2000, 11:34:00 AM
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I sure hope we can get at least one Axis late-war bomber sooner rather than later. Since the Allies have the B17G, soon to be B-26 and the Avro Lancaster was hinted to be after that.
Something fast, as Axis medium bombers had generally had light defensive guns, so speed would be vital to their "survival" in AH.
My suggestions are:
He177: It's operational record sucked (engine fires, structural failures), but otherwise it was an OK bomber.
Max speed: ~300mph,
Ceiling: 25-30k.
Guns: rear 20mm, 3x13mm in upper turrets, 2x7.9mm in ventral box, 20mm and 7.9 firing forward.
Bombload: 2000lb's (or up to 13000lb's for short range) of bombs, or 2 of: LT50 torpedoes, LMA III parachute sea mines, FX 1400, or Hs293 radio-guided missiles.
Ju88S - A streamlined, much faster version of the workhorse Ju88 bomber. Some types with GM-1 boosting too, to really P.O. them fighter pilots (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Max speed: ~380mph
Ceiling: 30k ?
Guns: a measly 13mm in rear of cockpit.
Bombload: 2000lb's of bombs, or up to 6000lb's depending on version.
Ju188: Even better. This one's (unarmed) S model could hit 426mph with GM-1. Oh yeah, now that's more like it!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Max speed: (E model) 310mph
Ceiling: 30k
Guns: one 20mm, and one 13mm in rear turrets, up to four other 7.9mm.
Bombload: 6000lb's of bombs, or 2 torpedoes.
Or a late-war Japanese bomber:
Mitsubishi Ki-67: Allied code "Peggy". Don't know much about it, except that it was supposedly able to do loops; it was very manoueverable.
Max Speed: 333mph
Ceiling: 30k
Guns: rear 20mm?, upper, front and beam 7.7mm guns.
Bombload: 1800lb's of bombs, or 1? torpedo.
Yokosuka P1Y1: Allied code "Frances". Fast and manoueverable, only a few made it into combat late in the Pacific theatre.
Max speed: 340mph
Ceiling: 30k
Guns: forward and rear upper 20mm cannon.
Bombload: 2000lb's of bombs.
So, which one would you prefer/think is most suitable in AH?
The Ju188S with GM-1 would be my number one pick of course! Take that Runstangs! Teeheehee (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Humm, sounds cool bombers...
I hope HTC will give us LW fans something comparable with allie uber planes...
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I agree, we need an LW bomber.
I vote for the 88 models, He177 was practically non existent.
If we wish a bigger bomber, may I suggest to consider the italian Piaggio P108 too?
It was a big 4-engines bomber (kinda B17), carried 3500 kg bombs and had decent defensive armament; unfortunatly it was not very fast (420km/h).
It saw service during 1943, even in very small numbers (very very small indeed, actually..ehem...24...), until the armistice, then they were captured by the Germans.
I will try to scan and post a picture here.
Veetwin
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Why should LW be restricted to numbers?
As well as we all know, germans had less numbers, with high technology of its time.
Russian front: wouldn't be wonder to see 10 T-34s against one Tiger
Western front: at least 5 shermans for every tiger!
If germans had something good, they sure did use it well. (isnt that enough reason to have even some more rare planes, at least have something good for LW?)
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Virtually non-existant? There were some 565 He177A-5 built, and they served with several KG, on both eastern and western fronts. It sure would be nice to sink destroyers with those RC missiles...
As for Italian bombers, the only one I've ever heard was any good (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) was the S.M.79, one of the best torpedo bombers of it's time. It would be a great addition to the early war bomber set. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Max speed: early model 267mph, late model 298mph with ethyl injection.
Ceiling: 21k
Guns: 7.7mm in forward fixed, upper and lower rear, and one beam gun. The guns are all retractable too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Later model 20mm forward, lower rear removed.
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A German bomber ? From 1944 ? Hmmmm.
How about.....the 262 ?
Sorry, couldn't resist (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The He-177 would get my vote if a poll was being taken.
On the other hand the Condor would be nice too.
-Westy
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I think that unfortunately, the Fw200 Condor would suck in AH at the moment. Slow, low-flying, weak durability and a 4500lb bombload, most of which is only 50kg bombs. If we had merchant ship convoys sailing around in an ocean for the Condor to sink, then it would be great! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The Me262? I don't like the idea of trying to divebomb in a jet with no speed brakes and an engine that can't be throttled back for fear of a flameout! The Arado Ar234, on the other hand... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And yes, this is kinda supposed to be a poll... which of these Axis bombers do the people want? I would like to see at least one of them in AH soon.
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 01-11-2000).]
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For this late war plane set the He 177 would fit somehow (it's a fantasy arena anyway), but regarding the easy production of subtypes the Ju 88 or the Do 17 would be better suited.
A rather nice overview of many bomber types (axis and allied) is at http://canopus.lpi.msk.su/~watson/wwiibombers.html (http://canopus.lpi.msk.su/~watson/wwiibombers.html)
Az
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Azrael
Red Dragons (http://www.reddragons.de/aceshigh/index.htm)
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I think the way to go in this planeset would be with some of the late war Japanese planes. They were fast, had good ceilings, were well protected, and could carry a useful load. They were also designed with day bombing in mind (as opposed to the British and German philosophy of night bombing).
Fom the above link:
Mitsubishi Ki.67 Hiryu
334mph
30,777 ft ceiling
1,792 bombload
Enough for ack! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I will check some sources when I get home. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by dolomite (edited 01-11-2000).]
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Isn't that B-29... eh.. B-17 already enough of fantasy? :P
Flies with full bombloads somewhere there where no buff has gone before...
Not to talk about those 20mm defensive guns which can rack up kills better than some of fighters (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Who said anything about bombing, juzz ? I just said I want a 262 (as a bomber). The way I would use it is my choice, OTOH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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May i suggest to develop an early war plane set?
In this perspective it seems to me unavoidable to model the He 111, just for historical reasons and, obviously, the SM79 Sparviero: however notice that the front gun was very often replaced by a mere piece of pipe to save weight the enemy don't knowing it was only a pipe and would not (hopefully!) try a head on (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
all others MG were 12,7 Breda Safat (the only standardized part of Italian planes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The at firs only one 7,7 mm Hotkiss MG for lateral defense (could be moved from one side to the other) was soon replaced by one 12,7 (what else? Right guessed!) Breda Safat for each side (on this point I ask help to my squad mates, I could be wrong, 1 or 2?) then a back looking 12,7 mm Breda Safat on the Hump and (not everytime) a 12,7 mm backward looking 12,7 mm in the bomber position.
The Sparviero was one of the best scoring torpedo bomber in WWII, was able to take very severe punishment.
In fact almost all italian planes were good bullet sponges, otherwise you could not explain how the Regia Aeronautica could soustain 3 years of war with the known figures about it's real strenght. The pilots were every time the same, the planes were every time the same, with a very low turnover, the specialist making miracles to keep them flying. After the armistice on Sept. 8th 1943 the co-belligerant air force kept in line MC202 and Mc205 while the factories both for airframe and engine were left in German occupied territory (R.S.I. and Germany itself) so no spare parts a.s.o. The planes were kept flying cannibalizing all the wrecks brought back even from North Africa, this untile the end in April 1945! The inventive was never ending. As the front in the Balkans became to far for the range of the C205, in some exemplares the cowling mounted 12,7 mm guns were take out and replaced by a self made fuel tank: the urban legend about these tanks says that the first one was made out of the stainless steel cover of a bar organized in the café of the little town nearby the field: the owner of the café had obvioulsly not been asked (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I found this in the book "i soliti quattro gatti" (something like "The same (or the usual) 4 cats" which means "everytimes the same few peolple" or something like that) telling about the story of the regia Aeronautica in WWII out of pilot's diaries and tales with focus on the 4° Stormo Caccia.
Honestly I don't really know if this is really true (maybe more historically prepared squad mates can help also on this point) but it surely gives the sense on how and with which spirit they had to fight...
So far
Ciao
Luigi "falco" Pacetti
4° Stormo Caccia
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I'm certainly out of my league here with regard to bomber knowledge...however i do believe that germany was bombing England right up till the end of the war..primarily with araddo's ???
This was the 1st operational turbojet bomber in the world and was operational in late 44 (november I think). Would give them ponys something to chase (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The Runstangs can chase all they want, but they will never catch an Ar234, going at 460mph (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hristo; you can have a Me262, but you can only engage enemy fighters AFTER you bomb your mission target. Failure to destroy the target will not be tolerated. Once it's destroyed, then you can shoot whatever you want to, with your two MK108 cannon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Fishu; if HTC fix the B-17's engines, they wont be flying so high anymore. Currently it can run indefinitely at full power of 2500rpm/46 inches, which the real B-17 could only sustain for 5 minutes. This setting has a critical altitude for the turbo of 27k. You have to throttle back 1.5 inches per 1000ft over critical alt, which is why a real B-17 can only reach 35k, but AH's can go much higher. The problem is that if you run the maximum continous power setting of 2300rpm/41 inches, it climbs really... really..... slowly...... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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"The Runstangs can chase all they want, but they will never catch an Ar234, going at 460mph"
Nope. Not flat out. But a P-47M WOULD!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Let's use this opportunity shal we to petition for the P47-M!!!!
--Westy
(oh. A P51 from any kind of dive could take out a lower Arado...)
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It would be a rare occasion when you could get a Mustang higher and in the right place at the right time to dive onto it, after all look how much trouble people have catching up to the high B-17's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Did any Allied fighter ever catch and shoot down a high-flying Arado Ar234 during WW2?
Yeah and lets just have the Ta152H-1 too eh?
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Whow, You guys getting ready to move on to Korea or something? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) High flying in this game they would pose some problems Historicaly they wer often used at med to low alt trying to take out bridges and such to slow up the allied advance. They were shot down at a Reasonable rate by stangs tempests and spit 14's
see ya online
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Uhm, how about just a recon version then? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)Eric Brown says:
The Ar234 appeared truly blitzschnell to Allied fighter pilots assigned the impossible task of intercepting this turbojet-driven interloper; they had as much chance of bringing their guns to bear on the elusive German newcomer to the air war arena as they had of knocking it down with a volley of profane oaths. At the speeds and altitudes at which it normally performed it's reconnoitering only mechanical failure could bring it down.
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Well for balance I guess we'll have to have a meteor or two. They were active in England chaseing V-1's at the time.
Or maybe the P80 shooting star. A couple of those made to Europe be for the war ended but did not see any action???
See ya on line
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*groan* This is all YOUR fault Hristo!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Just blame old Willy an his buddies (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Bringing in planes for balance ? No, thanks, we like it unbalanced (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'd trade my 109G-10, along with 2 early versions + bonus Me 410 for a 262 any day.
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Ju-88 is the best choice, because of all the variants. They were in the war the whole time, with different models doing level bombing, dive bombing, torpedo bombing, anti-tank, night fighter, day fighter, you name it.
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some of the later 88's were fast and high flying also. Would be a good choice as different versions would be in the game thru the whole war and would not require as much work for htc to create.
see ya on line
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If they model the Ar234, I would suggest that they also model its ejection seat (the first one used operationally in combat to my understanding). That would be of great comfort to the pilots who get shot down thinking no one can catch them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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If they model the Ar234, I would suggest that they also model its ejection seat (the first one used operationally in combat to my understanding). That would be of great comfort to the pilots who get shot down thinking no one can catch them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
PS - The 234's max speed (460) is at about 20K... which leaves plenty of space for a higher flying P47 or P51 to dive on them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Granted, it wouldn't necessarily be easy to nab a 234, but it'd would be more than possible.
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SnakeEyes
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=4th Fighter Group=
[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 01-16-2000).]
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Only one of the prototypes (V3) had an ejection seat and pressurised cockpit, AFAIK. All the examples(production models) Eric Brown flew didn't have one, he specifically mentions that fact.
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Bummer... sounds like they're really in trouble then. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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doublepost
[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 01-16-2000).]
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The Arado had a hatch above the pilot, this was the only means of exit if the plane got dinged up. The limited infor i have doesn't indicate any combat loss except during take off and landing.
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Snakeseyes,
I thought the Do-335 had the first ejection seat/tail/prop...hehe
I like that forward swept jet powered one...what was it? Ju-287 or 288..one of those
It had B-24 nosewheels! It could do about 350 mph with fixed gear! The final production model would have been pressurized, retractable gear, 6 BMW turbojets with a speed estimated at over 500 mph
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I have only seen the night-fighter version of the Ta-154 and the He-162 described as having ejection seats, but the Do-335 might have had it too. I got no information on its cockpit installation.
That experimental jet is the Ju-287. It used the front and tail of a 188, and would have been fitted with to large turbojets giving a thrust of up to 7,000 lbs, but these were never completed, so prototypes flew with 4 or 6 'ordinary' turbo-jets. Most significant was however liked stated its wings which had a leading edge of 25 degrees FORWARD. It sure looks fascinating. Max speed at 529 mph.
And when we already are dreaming (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif), why not swap the Ar-234B with a C-model with 2 extra jets. Max speed at 546 mph.
Back to reality I would go for the Ju88 too. Very versatile and many variants which should make it easier for HTC to come up with new variants of it fairly fast, like done with the 109.
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LLv34 Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
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The Do 335 had an ejection seat. Like all other such devices of the time, it was not exactly trusted by the pilots. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Meteor Mk. III would be great. Me 262 and He 162 would outperform them, but they would be competitive. P-80 would be a worthy opponent though!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 01-20-2000).]
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Hmmm, I don't see much mention of bombers in those last 4 posts... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Like funked said, the Do335 had an ejection seat. And the rear prop, and the upper and lower tailfins, and the canopy... Particularly fascinating was the story that when two prototypes came to grief the bodies of their pilots were found to be devoid of arms. The story, recounted to me by a German pilot, alleged that the loss of the upper limbs had resulted when the unfortunate victims had gripped two inclined levers at cockpit sill level and pulled them aft to activate the hood jettison system. This action released the hood effectively, but since the levers were attached to the hood, a firm grip meant, so the story went, that the hands and arms were wrenched off with the rapidly departing canopy. This story made something of an impression on me, and I clambered into the cockpit filled with curiosity. Sure enough, the notorious hood jettison levers were there.
E.Brown, Wings of the Luftwaffe.
Now, no more experimental or jet talk in here! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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>Well for balance I guess we'll have to have a meteor or two. They were active in England chaseing V-1's at the time.
On July 12, 1944 two Gloster Meteors were delivered to 616 Squadron. Operational clearance was received on July 27, the first V-1 being destroyed on August 4. Apart from V-1s the Meteor never flew in air combat during WWII. They did fly on ground attack missions, their first operational sortie being on April 16, 1945.
JEJ http://www.redtwo.demon.co.uk/616/Welcome.htm (http://www.redtwo.demon.co.uk/616/Welcome.htm)
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If earlier planes are being included then i cant think of anything more fun than a ju87
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Fun for who, bomboy. For Stuka pilot or its killer ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Quality, not quantity for LW, pls.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 01-31-2000).]
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Hristo, think "Scenarios", not open-quake-arena. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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But which scenario? I guess Barbarossa will work, since we will likely never see any pre/early-war Russian planes in AH, so fighter opposition will be historically low. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 01-31-2000).]
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Ju-88 It's about time that the Richards made an appearance. =)