Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Viper61 on February 20, 2009, 11:46:24 PM
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From what I saw it was another loop sided victory for the IJN forces. Request the CM's make some really agressive changes for frame 3 to bring it back into more of an even fight. I am not complaining at all and I love the FSO and the CM job isnt one that I want and all of the CM's do great work <S>. Just requesting an agressive change in the AC configurations to allow a more even fight.
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I want to fly a mossie and not run out of fuel taxi'ing to the hotpad that I couldn't even find.
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I'd like to know what happened over C84.
I saw about 3-4 Allied pilots in their chutes RIGHT over the middle of the task group drawing all the AAA away so the rest of the strike package could bomb and strafe without worrying about Ack (as if it WERE actually something to worry about in FSO to begin with...). Three of the four destroyers were sunk before the last guy in his chute popped. If this was deliberate doesn't this fall into the same category as a pilot bailing over an enemy airfield so he can camp the runways with his .45?
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I taxiied to an AA pit to rearm..caught it at last sec and went to re-arm pad only to be egged :)
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All I saw was ack where hotpads should be! lol
And then my engine puttered out. :(
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I taxiied to an AA pit to rearm..
Me too, I did not catch it though.
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All I saw was ack where hotpads should be! lol
And then my engine puttered out. :(
I didn't know this until one my squaddies pointed it out, but on this map the hot pad is in the middle of the field.
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From what I saw it was another loop sided victory for the IJN forces. Request the CM's make some really agressive changes for frame 3 to bring it back into more of an even fight. I am not complaining at all and I love the FSO and the CM job isnt one that I want and all of the CM's do great work <S>. Just requesting an agressive change in the AC configurations to allow a more even fight.
Is the fight really uneven? Or are the Japanese forces using better tactics and flying their aircraft better? It can be very hard to tell.
While flying escort tonight I saw lots of Lavochkins trying to attack Ki-67s from direct 6. They all received swift punishment if our fighters hadn't gotten them already. We seemed to be doing really well until we watched half the bombers collide into an invisible wall at the edge of a map. :huh
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We seemed to be doing really well until we watched half the bombers collide into an invisible wall at the edge of a map. :huh
Hmmm... I was concerned this might be an issue.
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Hmmm... I was concerned this might be an issue.
Last time i saw that happening was in a sencro event 2 years ago.
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Last time i saw that happening was in a sencro event 2 years ago.
Sencro? What is that?
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Scenario. Sorry.
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What scenario was that? Downfall?
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Opreation Husky. Fram 1
http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/200706_husky/husky.htm (http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/200706_husky/husky.htm)
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Going through the logs and stuff but at first pass it looks like the the allies launched 145 pilots in B25C and 5 in A20Gs out of 269 pilots. That is about 56% of their total available pilots and only left 119 in Fighters.
The Axis put 50 pilots in K67s out of 268 pilots. About 19% of their total pilot pool, leaving them with 218 fighters.
To put things simply I didn't expect the Axis in Frame 1 to use no bombers and I think I made changes to address issues from frame 1 by including a minimum of Ki67s needing to be use (30 pilots in Ki67s), the limiting of N1K2s and the inclusion of 100 LA7.
For this frame I didn't expect that allies to such a number of bombers.
Have to think on this.
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We got RAPED by 35+ KI-84's that were at least 30k+. :aok
WTG axis nice Frame.
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We got RAPED by 35+ KI-84's that were at least 30k+. :aok
WTG axis nice Frame.
Chappy one heck of a long intense fight! You guys flew very well. :salute
Frodo
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For this frame I didn't expect that allies to such a number of bombers.
It's because the allied fighters have minimal ordinance capacity and range. The Ki-61, Ki-84 and N1K can all deliver 500kg of ordinance anywhere on the map.
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Um no that is not it.
Look in the objectives I sent out to both sides I list the ordinance needed to take down each target. In total the allies needed to put 103,200 lbs on 5 objectives to kill all objectives 100% (actually 83,200 .. I forgot that I changed the point value for the Cruiser in the fleets but we didn't increase its hardness). The Axis had the same.
The allies launched 145 formations of B25Cs, that is 435 B25Cs in the air for a total bomb capacity of 1,305,000 lbs. They had an additional 5 A20Gs for another 10,000 lbs of bomb capacity. So for this frame they had the bombing capacity of 1,315,000 bombs. That is 12.7 times the amount needed for the higher incorrect amount of ordinance I listed in the objectives (103,200 lbs).
The Axis put 50 Ki67 formations , 150 Ki67s planes, into the air against objectives with that needed the same amount of ordinance (103,200 lbs .. correct amount 83,200 lbs). Their force had a total capacity of 264,000 lbs of ordinance. Which is 2.6 times the amount needed or the higher incorrect amount of ordinance I listed in the objectives (103,200 lbs).
Now that the frame is over I can comment on tactics. Usually in the past when I was a CiC the rough rule of thumb is you needed at least 2 times the amount of bombs needed to hit your objectives with. Many times people went as higher, especially if they went lighter on escorts. But the most I think I have seen is like 4 times the ordinance needed usually. The reason for this is that you needed to leave yourself with enough fighters to provide escort and a credible defense. In WWII the 8th Air Force learned this lesson the hard way during their operations with unescorted B17 missions. Bombers without escorts suffer horrible casualties.
Now with that said I have gone through the logs and have scored the event. The Japanese main bombing relied on Ki67s .. which is why they fielded 50 formations instead of the bare minimum of 30.
Even so the bombing part of the war was close but the allies took it. The allies destroyed 57.9% of their targets. The Japanese destroyed 53.9% of their targets.
The Japanese lost 51 bombers and 118 fighters in Frame 2.
The Russians lost 241 bombers and 92 fighters in frame 2.
So it is not a case of the Japanese using dive bombers or their fighters dominating the Russian fighters in the air.
Nobody take offense at this please, since this is just a case of me going into strategy and why I was surprised. This was a case of the Allied commander of a massive force of unescorted or very lightly escorted bombers and possibly relying on them escaping detection to get to target. They did do more damage to their targets than the Japanese did but there losses were horrific. Just like in real life when things like this were done in World War II.
So yes, I was surprised to see this over kill strategy bombers with no to light escorts tried.
If the allies say went with 6 times the ordinance needed tat would have been 69 formations (207 B25Cs) with 621,000 lbs of ordinance. That would have given them another 81 pilots to fly fighters in either defense of bases or escorts. I actually expected 4 times the bombers needed. However, as a CM and a designer I give CiCs the freedom to succeed and to fail.
Once again, don't read more into my words here than I was surprised at the decision .. it was very ballsy but didn't work out .. and then the rest is a discussion of strategic and tactical considerations of deploying forces to achieve bombing objectives.
P.S. I made a similiar type of mistake way back in the early days of FSO when I was a CiC (I think in 2003). It was during a Norway FSO and I threw a massive bomber force at the invading Allied fleets while keeping most of my fighters to defend bases. It had similar results to hear .. so I also learned the hard way about needing escorts and figuring how many bombers actually needed to be deployed (rough rule of thumb is from 2 to 4 times the amount needed to kill all targets).
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Mongrels were in B-25's slotted to hit A26. We went NOE, but the B-25C is just not very defensible. We had a few LA escorts but the N1K2's chewed us up. We did moderate damage to the field, but out of 20 pilots only 3 bomber pilots and 1 La pilot (1Cajun, RAYL49, Harppa, and LuckyI3) made it back to base. Tough night.
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Air Raiders and JV44 found a target rich environment near 107. :aok The ensuing dogfight was memorable. :salute
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Is the fight really uneven? Or are the Japanese forces using better tactics and flying their aircraft better? It can be very hard to tell.
While flying escort tonight I saw lots of Lavochkins trying to attack Ki-67s from direct 6. They all received swift punishment if our fighters hadn't gotten them already. We seemed to be doing really well until we watched half the bombers collide into an invisible wall at the edge of a map. :huh
LOL, Ya Gavagai it was going very well until then. I didn't know that would happen, hell, I thought we still had a little space there west of 110...guess not, hehe. So we jumped into the rest of the bombers as gunners and decided to "cap" the field. 6 formations of manned death stars 3K above the field. :uhoh Looking back I should have regressed and rearmed, but we were just having to much fun.
<S> to TAC and JG54, great job on the close escort!
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<S> to AK's and TAC Drivers.
We few found a fight and what a fight it was. Once those last Ki84 came in high over the fight, we knew it was only a matter of time.
:salute
Oh and, gotcha AKDogg!
woott!!!
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We got RAPED by 35+ KI-84's that were at least 30k+. :aok
WTG axis nice Frame.
There were 15 of us, FYI :)
Fun fight, <S>
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There were 15 of us, FYI :)
Fun fight, <S>
what about the 68th guys?
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Wow, I never even saw them in the fight :huh
They came in, said we didn't need their help, and left. I don't think they were within film viewer distance for more than 5 minutes on my front end.
The only non-JG11 guys that were on my filmviewer were on there for literally 2 minutes. Not sure what happened.
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wut alt where you guys?
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We were at 26K when we engaged you and ended up at the deck when it was all said and done.
Looking at the logs, looks like you guys engaged the 68s before you got to us?
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yea, you guys where all ki-84's didnt know diff till looked at the logs.
16 pilots, 25 pilots = 41 pilots we ran into at some point.
I know there was alot seemed like.
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Big <S> to the Yak I was trying to vulch at A3 when he was landing...you were bingo ammo right? But still, seeing that first wave of bombers at 84 was a little of,"Hey we can take this!" Then, that second wave was just a big ol' scare...
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I want to fly a mossie and not run out of fuel taxi'ing to the hotpad that I couldn't even find.
All I gotta say is RTFM!
Read the Field Manual. It's right in the middle of it.
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<S> to AK's and TAC Drivers.
We few found a fight and what a fight it was. Once those last Ki84 came in high over the fight, we knew it was only a matter of time.
:salute
Oh and, gotcha AKDogg!
woott!!!
Yes u did, Nice flying. I almost had ya a few times but I was just to hvy with fuel to keep a rolling scissoring fight like we did. Just before we found yas, I just dropped my ext and had 100% in the mains. I should have gotten rid on the ext 20 mins before hand. Would have been alot better for me, lol.
<S>
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<S> AKDogg. I'm glad our squad was able to fight your squadron. I wish we could run into each other more often. Your squadron flew with great teamwork.
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Ghostdancer:
Read your reply back on page 2. All makes sense about using unescorted bombers and the ALLIED side paying the price. To this I agree completely. All tactics aside or whether the AXIS were more organized or just plain lucky. The fighter plane sets as is have several limitations on the ALLIED side:
Theres no need to go into long explanations here, we all know the IJN planes are much better in a 1 on 1 engagement with equal pilots at an equal altitude. In my opinion with the current plane set the ALLIES would need a 2 to 1 advantage at the merge to have a fighting chance. The only advantage the ALLIED planes have is that they can take more damage than the AXIS fighters. But with all the IJN fighters incorporating cannons this isn't much of an advantage past the 2nd strike of a 20mm round into a wing.
So as long as the AXIS CIC puts up at least 90 fighters (KI 61's, 84's and NIKI's) in each frame the AXIS side will control the air by H+45. Control of the air means no ALLIED bombers will make it through and if they do it is unlikely they will return making any points earned by destroying targets void by the loss of the ALLIED bombers.
ALLIED bomber escorts: The good Rus fighters don't have the range to escort the bombers, and the bombers need about 100 miles to climb up to 22 - 25K. In most cases this then requires the ALLIED CIC to either: Leave the bombers unescorted and conduct a fighter sweep or sit on the ground for 15 minutes, then launch his fighters to catch the bombers. In either case the AXIS CIC has the advantage as he either forces the fight by aggressively moving towards the ALLIED bases or sending out scouts to locate the bombers as they climb out. The map further helps the AXIS side do to its layout and radar coverage. In most cases the AXIS bases can only realistically be hit from a 90 - 120 arc due there locations radar coverage and location relative to the ALLIED bases. This allows the AXIS squads to mass in a very small sector around his bases. The ALLIED bases need to be protected against a nearly 180 degree ARC.
Even if you gave the ALLIES the use of 100% LA-7's I doubt it would impact the frame unless the ALLIED CIC ups over 150 of them in mass and attempts to conduct a single massive fighter sweep by H+25.
I'm not going to complain without at least providing some ideas for what they are worth:
Switch 1 or 2 squads from AXIS to ALLIED
Further limit the IJN Fighters in total numbers by type and replace more with Zero's
Separate the targets that the ALLIED side must attack forcing the AXIS side to further divide up there defenses
Move the targets that the ALLIES must hit close to the island edge so that AXIS radar is less effective - or turn off some of the AXIS radars creating holes in their grid that would allow attacks from off angles.
Just my ideas on how to get a more fair fight for frame 3.
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All I gotta say is RTFM!
Read the Field Manual. It's right in the middle of it.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2099/1572251795_47b4d6daaf.jpg?v=0)
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Theres no need to go into long explanations here, we all know the IJN planes are much better in a 1 on 1 engagement with equal pilots at an equal altitude. In my opinion with the current plane set the ALLIES would need a 2 to 1 advantage at the merge to have a fighting chance. The only advantage the ALLIED planes have is that they can take more damage than the AXIS fighters. But with all the IJN fighters incorporating cannons this isn't much of an advantage past the 2nd strike of a 20mm round into a wing.
I don't agree with this analysis at all. I've flown this planeset in the AvA recently and it's clear that the La-7 is the most dominant aircraft. In a combat environment like FSO, the ability to engage and disengage at will is worth far, far more than being able to turn a tight circle. The Yak-9U and La-7 are faster than the Ki-84 and N1K at all altitudes. The La-5 is only outpaced by the Ki-84 between 15-19k ft. Climbrates are comparable, too, yet the Russian aircraft can out-dive their opposition at will.
Still, despite the La-7's performance, these planesets are evenly matched enough to make pilot experience and ability the deciding factor in any co-e, co-alt, multi-aircraft engagement.
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Viper,
Fly like you would if you were in American Iron. Get above, stay fast, and don't try to turn.
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all it comes down to who has alt.
:aok
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all it comes down to who has alt.
:aok
No, not that either. In the last FSO (frame 1) our flight of P-39s out-fought a flight of A6M's that started with nearly a 10k ft altitude advantage.
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As for the fuel issue with russian planes, Fuel management is the name of the game. Don't be at full bore all the time. Use the e6b for max cruise settings. There has been times for us AK's that we got a plane (spits if I remember correctly) that had to travel in 1 direction 8+ sectors diagonally to escort. Fuels burn was 1.0. We all made it back but wouldn't have if we didn't fuel manage from take off. After wheels were up, we went right to max cruise or slightly better till we climbed to alt. We then went to max cruise settings until we got engaged. Once not engaged, we immediately went to max cruise. Alot of us made it back gliding but we made it back.
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No, not that either. In the last FSO (frame 1) our flight of P-39s out-fought a flight of A6M's that started with nearly a 10k ft altitude advantage.
Pray that does not happen again for 6 months..
After Action Report containing the aforementioned dogfight..
http://www.51hangar.net/FSO/FSO011609.html
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:pray That situation does not happen again for a while. Once ever 6 months is fine..
:lol
I pray that if it does happen again, that we can perform so well! Really, FSO is full of tough pilots who will beat the snot out of you even when you start with an advantage, and if you start with a disadvantage, Chappy, against the likes of JG11, lord help ya! I can think of multiple FSO deaths that were the result of underestimating the piloting abilities of the enemy. Sure, sometimes I run across people who are clearly new to the game in FSO, but even the merely decent sticks are likely to ruin your day if you're not careful.
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Pray that does not happen again for 6 months..
After Action Report containing the aforementioned dogfight..
http://www.51hangar.net/FSO/FSO011609.html
Here's another one:
http://vmf251-buccaneers.net/FSO/AAR/10-17-08.html
We got mauled pretty bad, but considering the advantage those 109s had (~5000ft) we shouldn't have come away giving nearly as good as we did.
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I want to fly a mossie and not run out of fuel taxi'ing to the hotpad that I couldn't even find.
Didn't you get the memo?? :huh
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Guys:
All good comments directly above from SAX, AG, DOGG and Fencer. All I'm saying here is that the ALLIED side has taken a hard licking on 2 out 3 frames and I don't believe the plans or the pilots can be blamed. And dumb luck can only go so far. Heck look at the AC kill ratios AXIS to ALLIED.
Unless the ALLIED CIC goes really defensive heavy (Max fighters - Min bombers) with the sole intent of gaining air superiority and not "really" attempting to gain ground target points on this last frame we will see more of the same and the ALLIES will end frame 3 taking a 3rd hard lose.
Again appreciate the comments and the 325th will do our part as always. But when you get wiped out twice in a row and you see much of the same happening in the other squads it warrents a comment or two :huh
:salute guys and I'll see you in the air.
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All good comments directly above from SAX, AG, DOGG and Fencer. All I'm saying here is that the ALLIED side has taken a hard licking on 2 out 3 frames and I don't believe the plans or the pilots can be blamed. And dumb luck can only go so far. Heck look at the AC kill ratios AXIS to ALLIED.
Did you see how outnumbered you guys were in terms of fighters, both frames? :eek:
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I'll take my CM hat off for a second, and speak as the Frame 2 Axis CIC. I've seen multiple threads on this board talking about the plane set and balance issues. First, AKDogg nails the fuel issue. The LA-7 can easily cruise over 300 mph while sipping fuel. Climb hard to altitude, level off and pull the power back. Another thing is that sometimes the bombers need to pull some power as well so they don't out range the escorts. Bombers carry a ton of gas and can run full throttle for hours. I'd recommend not doing that so the fighters can save fuel for when they're fighting. The distances involved in this setup are not extreme--at 240 mph GS, you're covering 4 miles a minute, and can fly 100 miles (4 sectors) in 25 minutes. Keep this in mind for the future.
I think the community as a whole would frown on cookie cutter approaches to CIC orders, but a couple of things I'll mention with respect to how I approach the offensive planning process.
1) Delivering ordnance without local air superiority, or at least heavily contested air superiority is a sure way to lose a lot of bombers/attack aircraft. Bombers need to be unmolested while in the sight, and dive bombers need to be able to tip in without anyone behind them.
2) Assigning the proper mix of aircraft is crucial. Taking a page from Rommel's Attacks!, better IMO to have a smaller number of bombers escorted by a larger number of fighters. For example, 6 formations escorted by 12 fighters is better than 12 formations escorted by 6 fighters. Figure out what the minimum number of aircraft that are required to credibly destroy the objective, add a safety margin, and don't assign any more bombers to the target.
3) Assigning the proper number of pilots per objective is also important. I generally go with a 1/3-1/2 on defense, and 2/3-1/2 on offense, depending on the types of targets, aircraft mix, and squads assigned. I'll assign a veteran squad that I know can handle themselves a tougher mission so I can plus up another objective that I believe needs it, especially on defense.
4) This will be contested by some, but again, IMO, fuel is more important than bombs on fighter aircraft. Use medium/heavy bombers to do what they were designed to do, and keep the fighters for escort and air superiority. The bombers are much better for heavy lifting, and when formations are enabled, allow you to achieve some economy of force by getting three aircraft for one pilot. That frees up more pilots for escorts and defense. Just don't expect bombers to work miracles if not or poorly escorted.
If I was the Allied CIC, I'd have created 5 offensive B-25 missions with approximately 6-8 formations per target, with 10-15 Yak/La escorts per mission. That would leave about half of the Allied side for defensive CAP missions.
My $.02
:salute