Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Anaxogoras on February 24, 2009, 11:56:17 PM
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The A-20 is one of the most durable targets I've ever shot at in the game. It can take 30mm hits to the wings without sustaining damage, but when it dives it sheds parts quicker than anything. I don't get it. :confused:
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Big plane with a lot of sheet metal, remember its a light bomber not a fighter....
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Big plane with a lot of sheet metal, remember its a light bomber not a fighter....
try telling that to the majority of those why fly it on a regular basis
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try telling that to the majority of those why fly it on a regular basis
What, the majority that prey on clueless n00bs?
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What, the majority that prey on clueless n00bs?
Willing to bet you have hit the ground a few times due to the A20's guns. :rock
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Big plane with a lot of sheet metal, remember its a light bomber not a fighter....
Yes, I understand its classification, but that's independent from the question I have.
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No it isnt....the ability to absorb rounds to the wings isn't in any way related to the structural limits of the control surfaces...BTW I can get the A-20 up to about 460 IAS without losing anything, however you can lose stuff well under 400 if you het heavy handed...
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Classification is independent. I could classify the A-20 as "airplane with two engines and 4-forward firing weapons," but that wouldn't have any bearing on its performance or structural integrity. I could also classify by stuff like whether or not the airplane has a bubble canopy, or whether it has a radial engine or liquid cooled. You get the idea.
The control surfaces of the A-20 are also resistant to cannon fire.
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yeah I've never got this plane either, whenever I'm in a GV and A-20 comes and kills me lickity split.... I try the same thing, I either totally miss trying to baby it so it wont fall apart, or it falls apart.
It can take 30mm hits to the wings without sustaining damage
i can vouch for this, was in a 109k4 and the a20 took one hell of a beating, ive shot down heavy bombers faster than this thing
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It only takes a split second more of concentrated fire. Nothing uber.
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The A-20 is one of the most durable targets I've ever shot at in the game. It can take 30mm hits to the wings without sustaining damage, but when it dives it sheds parts quicker than anything. I don't get it. :confused:
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yeah it does shed parts if your not careful,but once you learn to ride that fine line between shedding parts and keeping them,you can suprise alot of peeps with it.
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A20 is the most BS flight model in the game. I do not believe a plane with a gross weight of almost 16,000 pounds should perform like a plane of 4000 pounds gross, on steroids.
Its a game and its no big deal but JEEBUS....lets at LEAST keep it half way believable.
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It only takes a split second more of concentrated fire. Nothing uber.
Exactly. Rarely have I had an A-20 survive the first burst that I've hit it with. Also helps where you hit it, wing root/tail section will usually result in a dead Havoc.
ack-ack
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The tail is weak but so is the pilot so treat it like a 38 and shoot the glass. :t
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No it isnt....the ability to absorb rounds to the wings isn't in any way related to the structural limits of the control surfaces...BTW I can get the A-20 up to about 460 IAS without losing anything, however you can lose stuff well under 400 if you het heavy handed...
I was capping a field in a a20 mid war last night and I tagged the same b25 noob trying to take off three times. Loops baby....three complete loops loaded with 4000 pounds of bombs and 50% fuel to boot. Effortless, that FM is just wrong.
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Just to be clear: I'm not complaining that the A-20 is very durable. I'm also not complaining that it will shed parts in a dive with a little bit of stick movement. I'm asking why both of the previous things can be true at the same time.
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Big plane with a lot of sheet metal, remember its a light bomber not a fighter....
heh......that doesn't stop you from kickin our collective butts in it. :aok :rofl :D
and i mean that in a good way. :aok
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What, the majority that prey on clueless n00bs?
you've never fought snaphook, or nkl5, or i think nb, or cobia in it have ya?
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He's saying anyone with a clue will deal with even excellently flown A20s without much trouble.
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you've never fought snaphook, or nkl5, or i think nb, or cobia in it have ya?
I have, only two of those you mentioned are any good in the A-20, snaphook and cobia38.
NKL5 is far too timid in anything he flies and when he's unable to run, rarely puts up any resistance. It's like he knows he's gonna get killed so he doesn't even bother to put up a fight. He's also usually at 20k+ to be much of a threat to anyone on the deck.
NB is a single engine guy, he wouldn't know how to turn on a 2nd engine. :D
ack-ack
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He's saying anyone with a clue will deal with even excellently flown A20s without much trouble.
i have a clue....possibly not much of one.......and have had my arse handed to me by those guys. especially cobia. that dude's un-friggin-real in that thing.
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What, the majority that prey on clueless n00bs?
I've dueled some rather good pilots using an A-20 or Boston vs their favorite fighter. Won more than lost. Do not underestimate these aircraft.
My regards,
Widewing
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:lol I fought and killed an La-7 who started at least 5k ft higher than my A-20 the other day. Although I was unable to outmaneuver him for a killing shot after a couple pings with the forward guns, I finished him off with the dorsal turret. :P
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Do not underestimate these aircraft.
Its a physics Flight Model. Is there any record of how many air to air victories the A-20 scored against fighter aircraft during war?
Did anyone make ace piloting an A-20 Havoc?
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I've dueled some rather good pilots using an A-20 or Boston vs their favorite fighter. Won more than lost. Do not underestimate these aircraft.
My regards,
Widewing
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
what he said.
in the ta, a few months ago, WW was in a fm2, me in a f6f. he was in a slow fight, and had said it was ok to in on them. so i did. he also promptly handed my arse to me. i underestimated the fm2 A)because he was low and slow and B)because i thought that the fm2's were poop.
i don't underestimate any aircraft anymore.
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Its a physics Flight Model. Is there any record of how many air to air victories the A-20 scored against fighter aircraft during war?
Did anyone make ace piloting an A-20 Havoc?
The Boston has a lower wing loading than many fighters, and a rather good power loading (3,200 hp). It turns well, very well at low speeds with flaps. The A-20 is a bit heavier, but has better ailerons and elevators at high speeds.
I don't think the FM is seriously off at all.
I think that the guys who have mastered it will fly it to its limits. This means that it'll push many fighters very hard, and if the pilots of the other aircraft don't manage to utilize their advantages, they will lose.
My regards,
Widewing
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The Boston has a lower wing loading than many fighters, and a rather good power loading (3,200 hp). It turns well, very well at low speeds with flaps. The A-20 is a bit heavier, but has better ailerons and elevators at high speeds.
I don't think the FM is seriously off at all.
I think that the guys who have mastered it will fly it to its limits. This means that it'll push many fighters very hard, and if the pilots of the other aircraft don't manage to utilize their advantages, they will lose.
My regards,
Widewing
I appreciate what your saying but it does not resonate with my observations. For a 16,000 pound bird it behaves as if it is missing at least 4000 pounds. Whether it is or not? who knows. I dont trust the damned things at all in game. Only ride I feel that way about.
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unless you have the distinct privlage of actually flying every aircraft that is in this game in RL then you really cant compare them, now can you ??? :salute
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I can tell you that IMO what separates those who have trouble with the A-20 from those who don't is a fundamental understanding of both "3D ACM" and lift vector management. Those who fly the A-20 reasonably well exploit both relative E state (negative as well as positive) and out of plane maneuvering for angular advantage.
Over the weekend I happened to run into a Ki-84 piloted by the CO of a major squad. Apparently by the end of the encounter he was @#$# pretty liberally over range (as per a chuckling PM from someone else) and basically saying "an A-20 can't do that....could it?). The simple truth is that he did 80% of the work, he was to fast in plane and to slow out of plane creating huge windows for me to float the A-20 thru as well as ample room and time to use the vertical to reload E and/or reset angles.
Judgment can only be gained over time and by exposure to variables. While "pilot stuff" will always be a factor 75%+ of what I do in an SBD or A-20 can be taught in just a few hours....reaching the "rare air" WW and others have is a longer undertaking and not within the grasp of us all (trust me I know)....but you can reach a point were U can make even the best pilots work for there pelts pretty quickly if you'll take advantage of the resources available. When you complain about what an A-20 can do what your really saying is that your working grasp of ACM can be improved.
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Its a physics Flight Model. Is there any record of how many air to air victories the A-20 scored against fighter aircraft during war?
Did anyone make ace piloting an A-20 Havoc?
The only book I've read about an A-20 group, they bombed, in formation behind a formation ship, either a glass nosed A-20 or a B-26. They didn't dogfight and they rarely went down on the deck to straff as they didn't find the risk of getting killed worth the results.
Of course, it's like asking how many towns did 110G-2's strafe down?
What people do with or how they fly planes in game do not necessarily correlate with their use in real life.
wrongway
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The A-20G was first ordered on June 1, 1942 and first delivered in February of 1943. It introduced a solid nose armed with four 20-mm M2 cannon with 60 rpg and two 0.50-inch machine guns with 350 rpg. The four cannon were grouped in the forward part of the nose and projected well forward of the nose, with the two machine guns further back in the lower part of the nose. This new nose was introduced as a result of combat experience in the Pacific, where glass-nosed A-20s had been fitted with field modifications to increase their forward firepower during low-level strafing missions. The new nose made the A-20G slightly longer than previous variants. The A-20G retained the 0.5-inch flexible machine gun with 500 rounds in the rear cockpit, as well as the 0.30-in or 0.50-inch tunnel gun. The dorsal gunner's position was no longer equipped with emergency flight controls, and provision for photographic equipment was also deleted. Heavier-gauge armor plate was used, adding some 400 pounds to the weight. Carburetor deicing equipment was added.
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher4/a20_17.html
:salute
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I've dueled some rather good pilots using an A-20 or Boston vs their favorite fighter. Won more than lost. Do not underestimate these aircraft.
"Rather good" pilots, but none of them on the same level as you yourself, I'd bet.
Maybe we should put Widewing in his A-20 against Widewing against his other fighter plane - let's say maybe the casual Spixteen.
Oh gee, same pilot.
Still think the A-20 will win?
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he was to fast in plane and to slow out of plane creating huge windows for me to float the A-20 thru as well as ample room and time to use the vertical to reload E and/or reset angles.
Keyword: "Float" What the A-20 represents in this game is 16,000 pnds of a floating two engined zeke with six 50 cal MGs.
Did an A-20 EVER shoot down a enemy fighter aircraft in air combat?
I would be really surprised if an A20 ever shot down a maneovering fighter aircraft in a one on one engagement. Really surprised. Cannot even fathom one shooting down 8-10 high perormance fighters in a single combat under any circumstances. In this game a sortie like that is unspectacular.
Dawson in current mid war tour A-20G = 19 kills in, 5 kills of, 2 killed by, 1 died in
The A-20 flight model is porked.
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Keyword: "Float"
Did an A-20 EVER shoot down a enemy fighter aircraft in air combat?
I would be really surprised if an A20 ever shot down a maneovering fighter aircraft in a one on one engagement. Really surprised.
If you count the p70 yes they did have air to air kills with fighters. Granted 20mm cannons & radar though.
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Your missing the point entirely...
The overall capabilities of the A-20 are pretty mundane in all areas except for two. 1) low speed stability at high AoA, 2) outstanding zoom...other then that its very marginal. However if you understand ACM and take advantage of both of those and combine that with its significant drag when pulled around under G's in a flat plane you have a combination that can work a bit of mojo IF you correctly apply ACM vs the opposing pilots mistakes. what makes the A-20 appealing to some is its unique capabilities (IMO) as an ACM platform. It was not really a "bomber", as WW noted its wing loading is comparable to many fighters and its got outstanding control surface authority for such a large plane. So within the meat of its flight envelope the plane is responsive, forgiving and has an easily manipulated lift vector. This makes the plane very versatile, I've been told by others that cobia and I fly it completely differently for example.
It does not however have performance matching any fighter outside of the parameters above. 90% of the time people die to an A-20 (mine at least) for clearly defined reasons...
1) Failure to correctly determine relative E state
2) Failure to correctly determine relative E bleed
3) Failure to correctly determine relative angular gain/loss during out of plane Manuevering
4) Failure to acknowledge that flying in front of 6 x .50 nose mounted guns WILL kill you
5) Failure to recognize that not everything that goes UP comes down as quickly as you might think
6) Failure to recognize that not everything that comes down SLOWS down as fast as you think
7) Failure to recognize that a Bigoscar plane sheds E very quickly in a flat turn
8) Failure to recognize that a Bigoscar plane picks up a lot more E in a 500 ft dive then you do
So in closing...U die vs an A-20 when you fail to recognize that it will kill you if you let it. I almost never kill any of the really seasoned vets since they recognize that a failure to treat my toy with respect will get them killed...so they just pound my sorry butt into the ground and move on....which is exactly what I do when I run into one.
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Dawson in current mid war tour A-20G = 19 kills in, 5 kills of, 2 killed by, 1 died in
The A-20 flight model is porked.
Problem is that you're putting a sub-par pilot in your A-20. As such, any comments from the sub-par pilot about how a particular plane is porked is easily dismissed.
Instead of using your own experiences, why not actually provide some proof on how the A-20G is over modeled?
ack-ack
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Your missing the point entirely...
Hey, if I am the only guy who feels the A20 is porked so be it. It was no dogfighter in operational capabilities (no one has contested this oberservation) but in the game AcesHigh, mid war at least, it is one of the more successful fighters. Just throws a flag up fo me. However, not an important issue.
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Problem is that you're putting a sub-par pilot in your A-20. As such, any comments from the sub-par pilot about how a particular plane is porked is easily dismissed.
dearest most high emporer lord akak,
I do not have a pilot license.
I do not fly planes.
I am not a pilot.
I do however play a cartoon game where I get to pretend I am a bad mean old WW2 fiter Pylit...but I got to admit, when compared to a awsome P38J studly gurlyman like you, with those three awsome vertical moves you exploit so well over and over and over and over and over again.......I am....by comparison to such unworthy greatness as you.......sub par.
I grovel in your self indignant ridiculousness :rolleyes:
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"Rather good" pilots, but none of them on the same level as you yourself, I'd bet.
Maybe we should put Widewing in his A-20 against Widewing against his other fighter plane - let's say maybe the casual Spixteen.
Oh gee, same pilot.
Still think the A-20 will win?
I rarely fly the Spit XVI and the analogy is a bit silly. Pick a mediocre fighter and things get more interesting.
The guys I was referring to were well above average...
Against a top tier pilot, the A-20 would be in trouble against most fighters. That's how it should be. The deal with the A-20 or Boston is to get the other guy to fight to your strengths.
What makes these two bombers especially deadly is that the opposing pilot rarely knows how capable they are. Unless they have learned to fly the A-20 and Boston to it limits throughout the envelope, they may not be prepared for what's coming. Their best bet is to stay fast and avoid getting sucked into a close-in knife fight, especially if flying a fighter that does not turn well.
It's not unlike picking on a fat kid, only to have him turn around and punch you in the eye.
My regards,
Widewing
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I rarely fly the Spit XVI and the analogy is a bit silly. Pick a mediocre fighter and things get more interesting.
The guys I was referring to were well above average...
Against a top tier pilot, the A-20 would be in trouble against most fighters. That's how it should be. The deal with the A-20 or Boston is to get the other guy to fight to your strengths.
What makes these two bombers especially deadly is that the opposing pilot rarely knows how capable they are. Unless they have learned to fly the A-20 and Boston to it limits throughout the envelope, they may not be prepared for what's coming. Their best bet is to stay fast and avoid getting sucked into a close-in knife fight, especially if flying a fighter that does not turn well.
It's not unlike picking on a fat kid, only to have him turn around and punch you in the eye.
My regards,
Widewing
God knows, I fly a lot of planes with junk in the trunk.
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Keyword: "Float" What the A-20 represents in this game is 16,000 pnds of a floating two engined zeke with six 50 cal MGs.
Did an A-20 EVER shoot down a enemy fighter aircraft in air combat?
might take me some time to find it, i have posted the stats before but the answer is yes,
i will have to get on my home puter to find the stats tho.
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It's not unlike picking on a fat kid, only to have him turn around and punch you in the eye.
My regards,
Widewing
That is exactly true.
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most of the fat kids I dealt with were too damned slow to toss a punch let alone throw one. Besides, I would never liken the A-20 to a fat kid. More like a two engined zeke with six 50s.
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What makes these two bombers especially deadly is that the opposing pilot rarely knows how capable they are.
Unless they have learned to fly the A-20 and Boston to it limits throughout the envelope
Widewing
It is most interesting that you bring up the the Hovacs twin brother the Boston.........
In Mid War this Tour the Venerable Boston has accumulated the stunning total of 15 kills versus the A-20s meager 690 kills? Fifteen kills opposed to Six Hundred and Ninety kills............
Apart from the guns package why would there be such a vast difference between these two especially deadly bombers in the MW arena?
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It is most interesting that you bring up the the Hovacs twin brother the Boston.........
In Mid War this Tour the Venerable Boston has accumulated the stunning total of 15 kills versus the A-20s meager 690 kills? Fifteen kills opposed to Six Hundred and Ninety kills............
Apart from the guns package why would there be such a vast difference between these two especially deadly bombers in the MW arena?
A20 rolls faster,takes damage better,has w.e.p. and more top speed at the most typical fight alt 3-5 k and 12-15 k, not to mention its sexier :P
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Hell, the A-20 is harder to kill than an IL2 far as soaking up bullets goes......Must be all those tons of added armor that make it roll so much better :t
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Only comment I can add is that the first squadron in Bomber Command to get Mosquito B.Mk IVs had been using Bostons and they were relieved and delighted to get the Mosquitoes.
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Hey, if I am the only guy who feels the A20 is porked so be it. It was no dogfighter in operational capabilities (no one has contested this oberservation) but in the game AcesHigh, mid war at least, it is one of the more successful fighters. Just throws a flag up fo me. However, not an important issue.
Treat it like the M4'S that shoot down planes with it's main gun never happened in real life but a common thing in AHII.
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"Rather good" pilots, but none of them on the same level as you yourself, I'd bet.
Maybe we should put Widewing in his A-20 against Widewing against his other fighter plane - let's say maybe the casual Spixteen.
Oh gee, same pilot.
Still think the A-20 will win?
that's a weird/hard question.
i think that in that situation, it would come to which widewing made the first mistake. both of them would fly their respective aircraft to their strengths, and do their best to exploit the others weaknesses. i think it could be a possibility.
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Widewing in a XVI would kill Widewing in an A-20 quite easily. :lol
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WW vs WW...
Ahah...being Sicilian you knew that I knew that you knew that....
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Widewing in a XVI would kill Widewing in an A-20 quite easily. :lol
but here's the thing......widewing would know how to avoid a well flown spit, and would do things that widewing in a spit might not expect, thus making it possibly a victorious fight for widewing in the a20. :D
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the fact that an a20 can even be considered fair game under such equal circumstances against such ubery as a Spit16 just furthers my base argument that the A20 flight model is porqued.
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A spit16 is not fair game for an A20. It literally flies circles around the A20.
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the fact that an a20 can even be considered fair game under such equal circumstances against such ubery as a Spit16 just furthers my base argument that the A20 flight model is porqued.
well, me...i'm just having fun with this. we should only be worrying about how they fly here. how they flew in r/l is not our concern. that doesn't effect how we fly/fight them here.
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When A20 nails a fighter, the fighter pilot did it wrong.
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When A20 nails a fighter, the fighter pilot did it wrong.
then cap does quite a bit wrong.
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the fact that an a20 can even be considered fair game under such equal circumstances against such ubery as a Spit16 just furthers my base argument that the A20 flight model is porqued.
You still utterly failed in showing how the A-20G is over modeled.
I'm starting to think that your insistance that the Havoc is over modeled is due to the fact that you get your arse handed back to you repeatedly by likes of cobia38 and snaphook in the MW arena.
ack-ack
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You still utterly failed in showing how the A-20G is over modeled.
I'm starting to think that your insistance that the Havoc is over modeled is due to the fact that you get your arse handed back to you repeatedly by likes of cobia38 and snaphook in the MW arena.
ack-ack
those two always beat me in fights. snaphook has(after beating me in his sbd) told me exactly what i did wrong, how he did what he did in it. excellent pile-it, and friendly/informative too.
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Yeager, like someone said above, no matter how a A/C was flown in real life, has no barring on how we fly them in aces high.
More room for thought, the A20G also had a .30 or .50 down in the gut, now if the A20G get remodeled i hope the weight was already present for all that equipment and another gun/ammo.
If the weight is already resent, and the A20G gets a update, it will most likely have that gun, thus making the A20G even more deadly, and twice as likely to be packing someone maning the turret. "having a lower gun solution will make it HEAPS more usefull for tag along gunners.
The reason the A20G has become "such" a problem is the BUG it has for a LONG TIME, that would cause the aircraft to BLOW UP the instant it took any body damage. you may not have flown or encountered the A20G back then, i sure did, i blew up ALOT.Now this bird soaks up damage like it would/should from the very start of it being added, imagine that.
I also know with a updated plane comes tweeked and reworked flight model, most planes included in the updates are almost night and day (almost) and each and every one had been tweeked here and there. I see no reason the A20G will not suffer from this. All in Due time i suppose.
The A-20G IS and WAS a great aircraft, and i hope it can become even greater in aces high's future.
Btw Ak-Ak, spot on.
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I do not doubt the A20 was a great low and medium altitude "Attack" platform in actual combat operations. Indeed the record indicates it was maneuverable and a joy to fly. Adding the single .50 cal gun to the dorsal position would be a welcome addition to A20 in AcesHigh.
The idea that a plane in AcesHigh does not have to reflect its usage, success or failure in actual combat operations is not a new idea, nor an idea I am unfamiliar with. It seems that most of AH falls into that category. But, there comes a time when it is obvious that something is out of balance. That the A20 scores so heavily against fighters in the air to air sphere, as proven via the stats page, simply throws a flag up for me. I believe that AH is a "reasonable" tool, by and large, for measuring basic performance characteristics simulated versus actual. I believe that the success of the A-20 in AH goes beyond what should be considered reasonable given the historical record.
Still looking for any proof that the A-20 had a single confirmed kill in air to air combat (P70 notwithstanding).
Cobia and Snaphook are genuine pleasures to play the game with regardless of what ride they take out. Unlike some, they treat other players fairly, with respect, and are great sports all the way around. The MW arena is a better place because of them.
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Fully Agreed. :salute
If ever we get the P-70 i would $%^& bricks for at least a week tho, and then some.
Now im wondering how much 20mm the 70 carried. :t
:Edit: "Four 20-mm cannon with 60 rpg were installed in a ventral tub 240 total"
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p70.html
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Fully Agreed. :salute
If ever we get the P-70 i would $%^& bricks for at least a week tho, and then some.
Aye! <S>!
Is this the part where we start drooling over the prospects of a P-61 in AcesHigh :cool:
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Like most fanatics, if the 61 was ever added, with or WITHOUT a turret, again it would be a ride of choice for me.
A-20G P-39Q & P-61.
All my needs.
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Fully Agreed. :salute
If ever we get the P-70 i would $%^& bricks for at least a week tho, and then some.
Now im wondering how much 20mm the 70 carried. :t
:Edit: "Four 20-mm cannon with 60 rpg were installed in a ventral tub 240 total"
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p70.html
would rather have the quad 20 mm in the nose like its soposed to, then you could do those cute snapshots like the rest of the cannon rides :pray
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I do not doubt the A20 was a great low and medium altitude "Attack" platform in actual combat operations. Indeed the record indicates it was maneuverable and a joy to fly. Adding the single .50 cal gun to the dorsal position would be a welcome addition to A20 in AcesHigh.
The idea that a plane in AcesHigh does not have to reflect its usage, success or failure in actual combat operations is not a new idea, nor an idea I am unfamiliar with. It seems that most of AH falls into that category. But, there comes a time when it is obvious that something is out of balance. That the A20 scores so heavily against fighters in the air to air sphere, as proven via the stats page, simply throws a flag up for me. I believe that AH is a "reasonable" tool, by and large, for measuring basic performance characteristics simulated versus actual. I believe that the success of the A-20 in AH goes beyond what should be considered reasonable given the historical record.
Still looking for any proof that the A-20 had a single confirmed kill in air to air combat (P70 notwithstanding).
Cobia and Snaphook are genuine pleasures to play the game with regardless of what ride they take out. Unlike some, they treat other players fairly, with respect, and are great sports all the way around. The MW arena is a better place because of them.
i think that a large part of the reason that the a20 does so well against other players, is due to the fact that most of us are only average.(like someone else was alluding to). combine that with the fact that she's mostly flown by good pile-its, and you have your answer.
on that note.....i had nkl5 turnfighting against me in a lanc.......but i didn't come here and gripe that the lanc couldn't turnfight. i think that was one of the most hillarious and fun fights i've ever had in ah.
i try to take it for what it is. it's a ww2 sim, and a game. when i manage to get in, it's my escape from reality. as long as i can get a good fight(and there's plenty to be had in mw), it;s all good.
that's all that should matter. if you want more reality, then fly in fso, or i think i heard axis vs allies is good too.
for $15 a month....no matter HOW ya slice it, this is one of the absolute best valued entertainment packages out there.
you are right, BTW.....snap and cobia DO make mw one helluve better place. i always enjoy fighting them, although cobia shot my butt down so many times in one furball, that i was starting to think he hated me. :rofl
snaphook........again, that man is unbelievable in how well he handles both the a20, and the sbd.
just learn to fight against it in here......don't worry 'bout what it could or couldn't do in r/l. have fun. beat 'em at their own game. it's possible, i've done it...and seen it done. me personally, i tried flying the a20 a lng time ago...and died promptly. :D
have funnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Fully Agreed. :salute
If ever we get the P-70 i would $%^& bricks for at least a week tho, and then some.
Now im wondering how much 20mm the 70 carried. :t
dude.....THAT sounds painful. we better petition against the p70. :rofl :rofl
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Thing is, with only 240 20mm the ammo will run out very quickly.
It will also lack the rear guns, but that might help reduce the weight.
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Aye! <S>!
Is this the part where we start drooling over the prospects of a P-61 in AcesHigh :cool:
mid atlantic air museum on reading airport is restoring one.
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Fully Agreed. :salute
If ever we get the P-70 i would $%^& bricks for at least a week tho, and then some.
Now im wondering how much 20mm the 70 carried. :t
:Edit: "Four 20-mm cannon with 60 rpg were installed in a ventral tub 240 total"
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p70.html
The P-70 could be considered a failure in an operational sense but had it's worth as a trainer. The majority of the P-70s never left the States and were used as primarily by the 481st Night Fighter Operational Training Group to develop tactics and to train crews on the use of radar and night time operations. Think around 4 or 5 P-70 squadrons were deployed overseas. 2 of those though were given the Beaufighter and P-61 to fly instead of the P-70 they were deployed with. The other squadrons were deployed to the PTO were they were not very successful in intercepting the night time Japanese raiders over Guadalcanal and New Guinea. The P-70 lacked sufficient performance to be able to intercept the Japanse night raiders. The P-70 is only credited with 2 air to air kills during its entire wartime service.
ack-ack
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That the A20 scores so heavily against fighters in the air to air sphere, as proven via the stats page, simply throws a flag up for me. I believe that AH is a "reasonable" tool, by and large, for measuring basic performance characteristics simulated versus actual.
I don't think you should put so much weight on the stats as proof of much of anything when comparing planes to each other.
I just looked up some recent stats for another plane that has had some pretty dedicated doubters when it comes to it's FM. To put it bluntly, it's been called over-modelled, uber, UFO'ish yada, yada, yada. Now, if we look to the stats for "proof", we'd find that the actual K/D "success rate" of the F4U is-
F4U-1 0.88 /1
F4U-1A 1.23 /1
F4U-1C 2.57 /1
F4U-1D 0.71 /1
F4U-4 2.48 /1
-which could actually lead me to believe that the AH F4U is pretty radically under-modelled, since the books tell me the F4U held around an 11.3/1 K/D in the war. (I don't actually feel that way, btw)
I also can't remember seeing any articles telling me that it was successful when flown against B17's, Stuka's, spitfires, etc...
In short- I don't think we can use AH stats or WWII stats to decide whether a particular plane has an accurate FM in AH.
Quite honestly, there are some guys flying the A20's in this game that can make them dance around in ways that it seems maybe they shouldn't. That can be said for practically any plane though. However, if you don't fly to the strengths of the A20 it really isn't very difficult to shoot down, either. Like with any other plane, it really comes down to pilot skills/errors/misconceptions of E-states, etc...
So- is the A20 Fm correct? I don't know- but I sure wouldn't form an opinion based on how it's used and how successful it is in the game vs in reality. Ah pilots are quite different, and performing at quite different levels and in different circumstances than "normal" WWII pilots did as well...
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Thing is, with only 240 20mm the ammo will run out very quickly.
It will also lack the rear guns, but that might help reduce the weight.
it used to last me plenty long when i flew the hurri2c.
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Still looking for any proof that the A-20 had a single confirmed kill in air to air combat (P70 notwithstanding).
me too lol
confirmed the two p-70 kills
found one claim of 4 other combat kills, 2 each on consecutive nights,
but cannot confirm these as of yet (takes time to find the needle in the haystack that is the chronological order of battle U.S. army air corps) alot of theses stats were not consecutively recorded, i know i have seen them, but the thousand or so pages makes it tough( kinda like when i spent 5 days trying to find a single instance of p-38's escorting b-29's sometime in 1945) found that too but don't ask me what i did with it!!
the actual story i was looking for was 2 a-20's killing 2- Ki44 (Tojo's) that were chasing two other U.S. planes,
while looking for the last two days i have watched training films,(kinda kool stuff) and learned that most of the people that had anything to say about its flight ability said it was probably the most underestimated, in its potential, as an attack aircraft.
i know that's not saying it did what it does in the game, but it does lean toward the direction that in capable hands,(fearless as well) it might have!
who would have thought that the first Boeing jet liner would have been able to do a barrel roll?
the pilot,,
so he did one, in front of an aw shocked crowd. at its unveiling, proving to many, that you cant rule out anything!
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who would have thought that the first Boeing jet liner would have been able to do a barrel roll?
the pilot,,
so he did one, in front of an aw shocked crowd. at its unveiling, proving to many, that you cant rule out anything!
[/b][/i]
Here's the video of Dash 80's barrel roll back in the 1950's.
Dash 80 Barrel Roll (http://vidsearch.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=886043513)
ack-ack
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Here's the video of Dash 80's barrel roll back in the 1950.
Dash 80 Barrel Roll (http://vidsearch.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=886043513)
ack-ack
ty i didnt want to try to find that myself, very kool
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"Now you know that, and we know that... so uh, just don't do it anymore"" ..oh..that was fine..."
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Where the A-20 excels is in the ability to pound the snot out of armor, and then wade right into a dogfight. Usually, if you are defending against a horde of tanks, you are frequently evading enemy fighters. That suits me, I can usually force a ping-free overshoot and get some hits in. Tonight, I managed to get 10 tanks (6 Panzers, 4 Wirbels), and 2 fighters with several assists on other fighters. Didn't take a single ping in exchange.
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/A-20score.jpg)
The A-20 is a very dangerous adversary for armor, and good enough air to air to defend itself against marauding fighters looking to pick while you're dealing with tanks.
I enjoy the A-20 because its adaptable, competent (if not especially good) air to air and simply fun.
My regards,
Widewing
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I enjoy the A-20 because its adaptable, competent (if not especially good) air to air and simply fun.
+1 :aok
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Widewing, :salute to everything you just said.
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Where the A-20 excels is in the ability to pound the snot out of armor, and then wade right into a dogfight. Usually, if you are defending against a horde of tanks, you are frequently evading enemy fighters. That suits me, I can usually force a ping-free overshoot and get some hits in. Tonight, I managed to get 10 tanks (6 Panzers, 4 Wirbels), and 2 fighters with several assists on other fighters. Didn't take a single ping in exchange.
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/A-20score.jpg)
The A-20 is a very dangerous adversary for armor, and good enough air to air to defend itself against marauding fighters looking to pick while you're dealing with tanks.
I enjoy the A-20 because its adaptable, competent (if not especially good) air to air and simply fun.
My regards,
Widewing
I enjoy the a20, not because of my flying it, but rather due to the fact that 99% of the time i come across one,it is flown by an excellent pile-it, thus making for an excellent fight.