Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Chalenge on February 25, 2009, 12:18:07 PM
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Around the first of February I started to run into (not literally) more bandits that use negative pitching to stay out of gun solutions and try to use your ammo up so they can get home. Then last week I found this guy who is egressing from 84 (on the map with the 85/87 GV fight) in a long line of knights. I am returning home myself after porking their fields and I have two guns and a fuel leak. This 190 (http://www.4shared.com/file/89441066/7e135d13/Skating.html) and I cross each others 9oc except I turn to engage and he wants none of it. When the disco dancing starts I pull the throttle back and take snapshots.
Since this is getting to be so popular I want to ask who is it that is teaching this stuff?
File is about 32megs WMV.
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I have been noticeing a lotmore of that type of thing too. I however don't think that anybody is teaching them it. I do however think that these people feel that the best defense is to foil your shots any way possible even if it means giving up all their "E" to do it.
The biggest problem is that they are not being taught anything, they simply are going it alone and doing whatever they can think of to survive. Now I will not tell you any lies I have spent so little time in the TA that it is not even worth mentioning and that has caused me to take 10 times longer to learn what I know now and I still suck but I won't do anything like that. I did however have that mentality when I first started but have learned that there are alot more effective ways to get someone off your 6 and I work on those every sortie I fly.
I have also noticed that all the ones that do that are not new and unknown players but I have also seen a few better known people doing the same thing. The more experienced ones are the ones that you will never see change but I think that the newer players will eventually come around and learn the same lessons I have and maybe a few more.
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,259292.0/topicseen.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,259292.0/topicseen.html)
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He did not say that you should fly at negative "G"s he said that you fly in a way that your opponent is flying at negative G's in order to shoot you.
You can accomplish this without using negative g's to the limit that this guy and others do.
I am fairly certain that most of the trainers if not all would not reccomend this tactic as it is purely defensive and creates little opportunity for turning things to your favoras it bleed all your "E" to pull such a maneuver. I have never had trouble catching ponies in a zero when pull such a stunt and almost every time they take the fast route to the tower as a result.
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As DK said, no one is teaching these pilots any BFM. A barrel roll defence would have put him in a good position of you overshooting but as i cannot view the film atm i will assume that wasn't the case.
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Its used for two reasons, by two types of players:
1.) Those of the newer variety who are quick to overreact and cross controls.
2.) Those of the more experienced variety who understand that a negative-G avoidance maneuver is the last thing expected by other experienced players.
Generally concur with everything else written. Initially effective but purely defensive and, beyond the immediate avoidance, does not improve one's position relative to the attacking AC.
Waste of E.
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I love the stick stirrers,a nice slow target flip flopping all over like a wounded do do bird.
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Makes for a good laugh magnified by margaritas.
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I use it in my 38 all the time. It is hard to shoot them but what i usually do when faced with this problem on enemy fighters i climb up roll over the top and dive back down this makes me loose some of my E and i can stay with them without overshooting and most of the time it gives me a nice shot on the top of their plane. 190s are really good for this because of their roll rate (but it helps them in only dodging bullets). Oh and someone told me to use "The Flat Side" of my plane.
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Stokes stop Petting your sheep!!!
:O
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But the're so soft and cuddly, i get bored spawn camping.
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I see this all the time sitting on a Vbase in my wirble these bish P51's come over the base at 100ft and you see the plane pitchin up and down in rapid succsession and the tail is flippin around like a fish on a bank. Makes a guy wander what their trying to accomplish. They arent able to hit the broad side of a barn doin that, and they still end up in the tower. To each their own i spose :confused:
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Around the first of February I started to run into (not literally) more bandits that use negative pitching to stay out of gun solutions and try to use your ammo up so they can get home. Then last week I found this guy who is egressing from 84 (on the map with the 85/87 GV fight) in a long line of knights. I am returning home myself after porking their fields and I have two guns and a fuel leak. This 190 (http://www.4shared.com/file/89441066/7e135d13/Skating.html) and I cross each others 9oc except I turn to engage and he wants none of it. When the disco dancing starts I pull the throttle back and take snapshots.
Since this is getting to be so popular I want to ask who is it that is teaching this stuff?
File is about 32megs WMV.
couple of possibilities.
1) in the offline missions(at least the low alt p38 vs spit9 and n1k) when you do what it looked like he was doing in the beginning, the AI WILL overshoot you. he could've been trying for that.
2)in the beginning there, it looked like he was trying to use scissors to evade, and force(again) you to overshoot. it was however, a very poorly executed maneuver.
all in all, i didn't see anything really weird there at all. i see poop like that all the time in mw.
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Each night I PM several folks instructing them to do that when they see a blue nosed pony :devil
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I think there is a much simpler explanation. Someone did it to them and it worked.
Doesn't work for me.
wrongway
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Each night I PM several folks instructing them to do that when they see a blue nosed pony :devil
dam dude....you're on a roll lately!!
that just ain't right....... :rofl :rofl
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Each night I PM several folks instructing them to do that when they see a blue nosed pony :devil
Thanks Uptown that explains my ever expanding kill collection of run90s. I got another one tonight well flown 190 and then he started the stir... slow down... wait... yes I know that guy! :D
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I know a guy who flies for Knights, always in a Spixteen, and I liked him alright when I flew Knight, but now that he's my opponent it's infuriating that he pumps his elevator up and down like crazy when you get behind him. :lol
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I encoutered the dork in the 190 tonight. Sucked because I couldnt slow down or risk getting jumped by his 6 buddies. It was someone who I have seen on here for a while too. Its a shame that someone who knows better resorts to such dweebery.
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Yea Gav spit 16s do have a ability that doesnt get matched by any other plane they do that move in the video but they can do it alot harder
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Doom's 190 is my favourite, I sit in behind not shooting and hold my fire on purpose just to watch him nearly crash it in :t
Saying that I've come across several highly regarded sticks pull the same move. It is a legit way of getting out of someones guns in a last ditch attempt to save yourself. They just have to hope they ride your bullets without losing anything critical.
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Doom's 190 is my favourite, I sit in behind not shooting and hold my fire on purpose just to watch him nearly crash it in :t
Saying that I've come across several highly regarded sticks pull the same move. It is a legit way of getting out of someones guns in a last ditch attempt to save yourself. They just have to hope they ride your bullets without losing anything critical.
I rode in his 262 once. He flies the same way when he's behind someone. No way I can shoot like that.
wrongway
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why won't those friggen dweebs just fly straight and level and let me shoot them down, geddimmit! :furious
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Thanks Uptown that explains my ever expanding kill collection of run90s. I got another one tonight well flown 190 and then he started the stir... slow down... wait... yes I know that guy! :D
Still a long way to go to catch your ever growing collection of P51 runstang kills though. (25 , 42). :D Second only to your collection of Lancaster kills. (47). Nice collections though Chalenge. :aok
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I'm using some type of Neg E juke more and more often...obviously it will vary by plane type. In a 190 I'll normally use it to create both a bit of deceleration and vertical displacement setting up a barrel roll or rolling scissors type defense.
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I'm using some type of Neg E juke more and more often...obviously it will vary by plane type. In a 190 I'll normally use it to create both a bit of deceleration and vertical displacement setting up a barrel roll or rolling scissors type defense.
:aok Exactly. I laugh my arse off at the PM's sent accusing of stirring. Options are limited in the 190 when you have a fast a/c on your six. I think alot of the "stirring" you see from 190 pilots is just new guys suddenly realizing the plane is a brick with wings, and it takes a slowhand and quick reaction time to survive in. Also, I will add I see as much questionable tactics from other A/C types as I do from enemy luft iron. Particularly the Spitfire 16.
For the record, I will agree with the poster who stated he didn't believe anyone was teaching stick stirring. I can at least attest to my geschwader in that respect. Chalenge has (1) kill on JG11 190 pilots this month. 'Blitzin' in his A-5, who is flying the Wurger for the first time this tour.
Now for "for time" part of this topic. That is right on, particularly with the 190, as it is the ultimate team plane. Staying alive long enough for help to arrive and clean the fixated guy off your six is sound flying. Don't blame the guy getting help, if you find yourself suddenly in a reversal of circumstance.
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Around the first of February I started to run into (not literally) more bandits that use negative pitching to stay out of gun solutions and try to use your ammo up so they can get home. Then last week I found this guy who is egressing from 84 (on the map with the 85/87 GV fight) in a long line of knights. I am returning home myself after porking their fields and I have two guns and a fuel leak. This 190 (http://www.4shared.com/file/89441066/7e135d13/Skating.html) and I cross each others 9oc except I turn to engage and he wants none of it. When the disco dancing starts I pull the throttle back and take snapshots.
Since this is getting to be so popular I want to ask who is it that is teaching this stuff?
File is about 32megs WMV.
LOL!!! that wasn't stick stirring ! It was a very bad attempt at a flat scissors, but at least it was an attempt at a maneuver. Stick stirring is just that, like stirring a cake mix. The plane continues its forward motion but is flopping all over the place, to keep them in your gunsite take very little movement on your part, but they are hard to hit. One moment you "see" most of the top of the plane, the next its mostly a side view. While this guy wasn't so good, at least he was trying something.
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LOL!!! that wasn't stick stirring ! It was a very bad attempt at a flat scissors, but at least it was an attempt at a maneuver. Stick stirring is just that, like stirring a cake mix. The plane continues its forward motion but is flopping all over the place, to keep them in your gunsite take very little movement on your part, but they are hard to hit. One moment you "see" most of the top of the plane, the next its mostly a side view. While this guy wasn't so good, at least he was trying something.
Spot on. I didn't want to be the one to say it, seeing as it may be seen as partisan posting. :aok
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:aok Exactly. I laugh my arse off at the PM's sent accusing of stirring. Options are limited in the 190 when you have a fast a/c on your six. I think alot of the "stirring" you see from 190 pilots is just new guys suddenly realizing the plane is a brick with wings, and it takes a slowhand and quick reaction time to survive in. Also, I will add I see as much questionable tactics from other A/C types as I do from enemy luft iron. Particularly the Spitfire 16.
For the record, I will agree with the poster who stated he didn't believe anyone was teaching stick stirring. I can at least attest to my geschwader in that respect. Chalenge has (1) kill on JG11 190 pilots this month. 'Blitzin' in his A-5, who is flying the Wurger for the first time this tour.
Now for "for time" part of this topic. That is right on, particularly with the 190, as it is the ultimate team plane. Staying alive long enough for help to arrive and clean the fixated guy off your six is sound flying. Don't blame the guy getting help, if you find yourself suddenly in a reversal of circumstance.
Spot one kommandant Stampf. :salute
For the record, that particular engagement that ended me up low on the deck trailing 3 bandits ( Chalenge P51, a 109K and Spit 8 I believe ) was from a SchlachtFlieger Mission to the airbase that he upped from. We then found out that their cv gave away our location as we were spotted on dar about 10 miles out from target.
As everyone said above me, stick stirring in a 190 low and slow isn't stirring. If you fly the plane you'll know trying to make any hard break turns with no E will studder the wings and make it looks like the plane is going to flatspin. Also the plane has good roll rate so i was attempting a low speed barrel roll, which ended up badly i might say. :uhoh
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Hello Gentlemen,
Fugitive is absolutely correct. I have seen stirring, and I have seen scissors, barrel rolls, etc. The two look nothing alike. One is actual ACM, the other is just overwhelming your stick input to the point your plane trips, flips, & flops left, right, up, down, and many combinations of those directions. I believe what the OP was describing is actual defensive ACM.
Have a great day,
Way
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I have absolutely 0 problem "stirring" when there are 3+ enemies on my 6. If the combined volume of fire is that poorly aimed, I really don't feel bad for any of you. Get out of your horde, and I'll fight you for real.
In a 1v1 or most 2v1's however, there is no reason for such action.
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LOL!!! that wasn't stick stirring ! It was a very bad attempt at a flat scissors, but at least it was an attempt at a maneuver. Stick stirring is just that, like stirring a cake mix. The plane continues its forward motion but is flopping all over the place, to keep them in your gunsite take very little movement on your part, but they are hard to hit. One moment you "see" most of the top of the plane, the next its mostly a side view. While this guy wasn't so good, at least he was trying something.
I know the difference which is why the film is called 'Skating' however this is what people commonly call 'stirring.' There is a 190 that actually does stir and its embarassing to watch because his plane comes to an absolute stop and anyone that tries to BNZ his 190 has a very good chance of collision. Worse the same guy also flies a Mossie and the larger wingspan covers more sky making it even more likely. I believe he uses them primarily in the role of base porker so he also does a lot of high speed straight line 'extensions.'
Blitzin I never saw a barrel roll but I did see an attempt at a scissor and that was when I had the shot that took your wing off. It had started off with some good moves on your part but the other two guys ruined it following us out toward the boat. Stampf you would fight me a lot more except I think your squad likes to furball and I am usually porking escorting or attacking bombers. Im not sure your squad is limited to 190s though. :D :salute
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I have only one thing to add to this discussion:
I have seen the flying of that most artful of dodgers, Batfink, many times in film and in person. Never, ever does he resort to funky-chicken dancing, porpoising with rapid oscillations in the pitch axis, or gamey use of extreme neg-Gs, or other things the red-out model should really be tweaked to punish more severely. He's pulling positive Gs 90% of the time, just like a real pilot, and he is one of the best if not the very best out there on defense. :salute to him for providing a counter-example to the gamieness.
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I will clarify that I was not speaking of Batfink.
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Bat is actually an amazing 190 driver, I was onboard as an observer once in the DA while he was fighting an La-7 that bounced us in the middle of a friendly duel. Unbelievable defense and forced overshoot. We'd dumped the 20mm and were flying mg only...Bat went sushi on the poor guy and carved him up a little bit at a time. I think the guy made 6 or 7 passes before he went down with bat not only avoiding fire (dont think he took a single round to plane) but actually getting a guns solution before the guy was 200 in front every time...he literally got rounds in on every single pass. nothing with Bat ever surprises me any more...he doesn't ever strut his stuff but one of the most versatile sticks in the game IMO.