Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: nirvana on February 25, 2009, 04:02:38 PM
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They have one for sale for $1049.99 and the 50rnd drum is another $269.99, anyone know if that's a decent price or not?
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Considering its a semi-auto (most likely at least), why bother?
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Because it's a Thompson! I don't need all the extra BS involved with anything full auto.
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One of the new auto ordnance Thompson's or a surplus?
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If its not auto, its not a Thompson. Its a .45 caliber pistol with an extra long barrel and a big clip.
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I believe it's an Auto-Ord, Red.
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It would be a fun but expensive gun to buy and shoot.
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i've been boycotting hypens since 1912. sorry.
you talking about one of these?
http://www.auto-ordnance.com/PA-1TH_ta.html
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No it's the T1, it's the full size gun.
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Its decent enough but its not a real Thompson. Nirvana you can buy a butterfly trigger for it that will make it fire fast enough to impress anyone thinking about shooting back. In WW2 soldiers loved the Thompson and in Vietnam some hated it. I love mine (a real Thompson) and feel its very accurate yet I meet people all the time that claim its not accurate at all.
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Here in Arkansas where I bought my Witness, they had a nice Thompson, fully legal, (magazine sold separately) for $500. It was in great shape too. There are several folks who use them to hunt and target practice, but the ranges are relatively short compared to 30-0-6 and other hunting arms.
It's a cool piece of history, but I'd rather have it over the mantle piece.
ROX
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Where can one find an actual, automatic Thompson?
wrongway
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make sure you grab one of these
http://www.tommygunshop.com/cgi-bin/itemdetail.asp?itmid=555
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I think its a great piece of history and if you want it then buy it and enjoy it.
Even better, buy it, and then donate the money you would have spent on the first shoot, for ammo, to a Pro-gun organization. And then wait a week or two to shoot it. Even better then that take a few kids out to shoot it and help them learn the shooting sports responsibly. But by all means buy the gun and have fun with it. We still have a bunch of fully auto Tommy guns from the Dillinger days and once a year the range guys take em out and shoot them/check them. The Tommy gun is one of the great, great designs in history and shoots like a dream.
I cant answer about prices nirvania. But its safe to say its never going to go "down" in price. I think the Thompson was on Bill & Hillary's hit parade and no doubt will be on Obama's administration too.
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My cousin has one with the 50 round drum clip.....Very heavy gun!!!
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Price is dependant on history of the gun. A non-historic Thompson? I think I have seen them as low as $7000 and the most expensive I have seen was over $100000 but I am sure they can go much higher the way people spend money on guns. If you intend on shooting it a lot then hunt up a bargain gun.
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My cousin has one with the 50 round drum clip.....Very heavy gun!!!
I was surpised at the weight of the weapon too! In the war movies, they never seemed that heavy when they were runing around with them. But, the thought of the time I'd have to spend reloading for one afternoon at the range made me decide not to buy one. It's bad enough keeping my M1 Garand fed without trying to feed a full auto gun.
If I was rich and could afford to just buy my ammo, I'd love to have one. And an UZI, an MP40, a STEN, etc., and several other historical firearms as well.
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They have one for sale for $1049.99 and the 50rnd drum is another $269.99, anyone know if that's a decent price or not?
It may be a decent price considering how much gun prices went up. I was seeing them for about $700-800 from an outfit in Shotgun news but that was several months ago. The price for that drum seems a bit steep none the less.
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If I had the cash to dispose of, and had everything else I could ever want that would be comparrative in price, I would recommend a "BUY" on a beautiful piece of history such as a Thompson. Not to mention it is a very intimidating and very worthwhile firearm. Anything that shoots 45 APC is value added.
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If I had the cash to dispose of, and had everything else I could ever want that would be comparrative in price, I would recommend a "BUY" on a beautiful piece of history such as a Thompson. Not to mention it is a very intimidating and very worthwhile firearm. Anything that shoots 45 APC is value added.
There was a commemorative edition of the Thompson I saw at a gun show some years back. It was beautiful! I didnt have the cash at the time but would have loved to own it, even if I only took it out a few times a year. It was in a very nice presentation case and would have looked great on the wall.
Yeah they are heavy but balanced well and at most, as a working gun, it would be for home defense so weight isnt an issue. And anytime you can load 30+ .45 ACP you have a serious defense piece.
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I was surpised at the weight of the weapon too! In the war movies, they never seemed that heavy when they were runing around with them
The weight was one of the biggest gripes with Thompson SMG. For most of the time soldiers are just carrying the guns. Rate of fire and the punch were the good sides of it, albeit .45 isn't as accurate caliber as some other SMG calibers.
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In WW2 soldiers loved the Thompson and in Vietnam some hated it. I love mine (a real Thompson) and feel its very accurate yet I meet people all the time that claim its not accurate at all.
In WW2 they didn't have much of a choice, but in Vietnam they did. What comes to WW2, would you rather use MP40, Sten or some japanese SMG? Not much of a choice there, although Sten might be nice to carry around, alas that's pretty much all the good about it. In WWII I would have rather used Suomi KP31 or perhaps PPSh41 (preferrably rebarreled to 9mm), something the yankees never had a chance to use. Considering the other choices Thompson probably comes third.
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*snip*
.45 isn't as accurate caliber as some other SMG calibers.
BAH! Who needs accuracy when you are slinging out 60ea 230gr bullets at a time? :rock
When you are washing your car and squeeze the handle, you probably don't hit exactly where you wanted to, but you quickly move the stream over to the spot, no?
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The weight was one of the biggest gripes with Thompson SMG. For most of the time soldiers are just carrying the guns. Rate of fire and the punch were the good sides of it, albeit .45 isn't as accurate caliber as some other SMG calibers.
Accuracy is determined by the proficiency of the soldier. The round itself is very accurate in close range situations.
This is a partial quote from 1904:
The .45 ACP Cartridge
It was the cartridge tests conducted by Thompson and Major Louis Anatole LaGarde of the Medical Corps in 1904 at the Nelson Morris Company Union Stockyards in Chicago that resulted in the adoption of the .45 caliber as the official U.S. Army handgun cartridge. They tested various calibers on live cattle, deer, and human cadavers to determine the best load. From these tests it was determined that the .45 was the most effective cartridge for a handgun, but with reservations. In their report, they state:
"the Board was of the opinion that a bullet, which will have the shock effect and stopping effect at short ranges necessary for a military pistol or revolver, should have a caliber not less than .45". But they also said, "...soldiers armed with pistols or revolvers should be drilled unremittingly in the accuracy of fire" because most of the human body offered "no hope of stopping an adversary by shock or other immediate results when hit."
So when it comes to comparing rounds, we must take into consideration muzzle velocity, weight, accuracy, and stopping power. On average, the 45 round has a muzzle velocity of 830 to 1060 ft/s depending on the weight/load. The 9mm is around 1120 to 1509 ft/s. This calculates into energy at the point of impact, thus you get your stopping power (ft-lbf: foot pound force). My father is more the pro on the round comparisons but at the time of writing this, I was unable to ask him some questions.
I'm not a gun expert but have had the opportunity to test fire a real Thompson with a 20 round mag, an MP40, and the BAR. All were from WWII and not replicas. I would have to say in my opinion, the Thompson was more stable because of the weight of the weapon. The MP40 was "jumpy". I don't recall the load outs of the ammo. We were firing at a range of 25 yds (about 22 meters). The BAR was a completely different animal.
Again, I'm not a gunsmith or a professional shooter. Only offering my opinion on the two weapons I've had experience with.
Obie
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I have had the chance to fire several models of the Thompson and I feel the original with the delayed blowback action is the more stable. Also I want to point out that the $600 drum should be a 100-round drum and not the 50-round drum (I dont know who would even buy the 10-round drum). It is also much easier to change the box magazine then the drum but if you buy the 1927A-1 you can use both.
I had a vietnam era vet tell me the Thompson was terrible because there was always two bullets in the barrel at the same time and the round was so slow you could see it coming and just move out of the way. :rofl
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The Thompson is heavy because it is made out of solid steel, a milled receiver has plenty of heft to it. And the weight is a good thing if you ever fire a Thompson full auto. The 45 ACP is actually an inherently very accurate round. Good quality ammunition will produce some very nice groups. I re-qualified for my concealed carry permit the other night, and with the cheap white box Winchester stuff, I easily scored 250 out of 250 with no effort at all, and my Para Ordnance P-14 45 has not been tweaked at all, it is my regular carry piece.
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So when it comes to comparing rounds, we must take into consideration muzzle velocity, weight, accuracy, and stopping power. On average, the 45 round has a muzzle velocity of 830 to 1060 ft/s depending on the weight/load. The 9mm is around 1120 to 1509 ft/s. This calculates into energy at the point of impact, thus you get your stopping power (ft-lbf: foot pound force).
What you and Cpt. Virgil hilts forget is that muzzle velocity also affects the accuracy in combat. The faster the bullet, the less time the target has to get out of the way (which translates to better accuracy). I have my doubts the ammunition generally used at war is of "good quality", especially by the time it finds it's way into the barrel.
I'm not saying Thompson was a bad weapon (actually rated it as third in my preferrences), but it isn't the holy grail of SMG's either. It did have some considerable shortfalls, which of the weight was most concerning. And if anyone noticed, I didn't give much praise to MP40 or Sten either (let alone the japs).
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Here's one!
(http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:75h7zDBfx-5i9M:http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3198/2876670230_1f5fa26dc4.jpg%3Fv%3D0)
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.
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What you and Cpt. Virgil hilts forget is that muzzle velocity also affects the accuracy in combat. The faster the bullet, the less time the target has to get out of the way (which translates to better accuracy). I have my doubts the ammunition generally used at war is of "good quality", especially by the time it finds it's way into the barrel.
I'm not saying Thompson was a bad weapon (actually rated it as third in my preferrences), but it isn't the holy grail of SMG's either. It did have some considerable shortfalls, which of the weight was most concerning. And if anyone noticed, I didn't give much praise to MP40 or Sten either (let alone the japs).
Accuracy is accuracy. Muzzle velocity affecting accuracy in combat is a crock of crap. Velocity only affects the amount of lead necessary to hit a moving target. And if you are shooting at humans moving at a range at which a pistol round is effective, 300 feet per second is not going to affect lead enough to bother with. It won't affect bullet drop that much inside the effective range for a pistol round, either. A 45ACP 230 grain slug will cover 100 feet in less than 1/8 of a second, (and a standard NATO 9MM round covers the same distance in just under 1/10 of a second) exactly how fast do you think a human can move? You're talking about the difference between leading a target 5" vs. leading it 6", and even less difference than that in bullet drop. In combat, an 8" group is considered excellent, and you're claiming a maximum difference of 1" lead (if that) is an accuracy advantage?
And 100 feet is about as far as you fire an SMG, more distance than that and you use a rifle or a SAW. You just do not engage at much over 1/3 a football field with an SMG. And if you do, 300 feet per second in muzzle velocity won't make a real difference either. Yes, you CAN hit a person at well over 100 feet with an SMG, a decent marksman can do it at near twice that distance, if he's had practice. An SMG (as well as a pistol, for that matter) is a CQB weapon, for use at hand to hand distance up to about 100 feet maximum, most often from hand to hand up to 50 feet or so. If you're engaging the enemy at a distance greater than 100 feet with a pistol round, you've got a lot bigger problems than the choice some guy made about the round you're using.
All you are doing is foolishly confusing marksmanship with accuracy. It is not the same thing. There are three "advantages" 9MM holds over 45ACP in military use. One, less recoil, two, lighter weight per round, and three, NATO standardization. It is NOT more accurate. In fact, given a 1911 Colt in 45ACP and an M92 Beretta in 9MM, both drawn from the same armorer, the 1911 will out shoot the M92 at least 8 times out of 10. Get into the Spec OPs issue weapons and most often the 1911 shoots at least as well as the P220 in 45ACP, and both of them will most often out shoot the P226 9MM.
Decent 45ACP 230 grain ball ammo is pretty much the same. Like I said, my P14-45 functions with the cheap stuff rather well, and shoots a serviceable group with no problems. And military grade is BETTER than the cheap white box junk from the five and dime store. I know this for a fact, because I get access to military 45ACP, the genuine article, exactly like an U.S. military member gets issued in the field. It shoots better, and cleaner than white box Winchester you buy at the store. I shot a brick of each last fall, and the military ammunition shot tighter groups, was 100% reliable, and left my weapon far cleaner.